Best Character Death

Which comic issue presents the BEST character death? What does a "great death" even entail? Nic and Jake duke it out with a double Spider-Man episode.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Superlatives, the show where comics go head to head. Every week we pick a topic in which our comics are going to compete. This week we have Best Comic Book Death. Each episode, we're gonna have two editors come in with their comics that they have nominated. They step in the ring and battle it out. When the arguments are done, our moderator, myself, decides the verdict and decides which comic is walking away with the prize that week. My name is Ellen Boner. I'm an associate editor here at IDW working on the TMNT, Twilight Zone. I'm also our games manager in our new games department. And I'm here with Nick Nino and Jake Thomas. I'll throw it to them to introduce themselves.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Uh hi, I'm Nick. I edit the Rocketeer, Event Horizon, and Twilight Zone with Ellen at IDW.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

And I'm Jake. I edit uh the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles line. I'm also the senior group editor that oversees a number of other lines as well.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Fantastic. Thanks so much for being here today. We've got a very exciting topic that I know we outside of the room already started talking about how difficult it was to pick comics for this specific episode, not because there aren't a lot of options, but because there are truly an unlimited amount of options for comic book depths. It seems like almost every character has had their shot at taking the final bow. And now we're just getting to pick a little litter, getting to talk about what we want to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Some of them multiple times.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yes. So I would just want to start us off. What do we think makes the a good death in general and then also specifically in comics?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I mean, I think meaning is the big thing. You want this death to have meaning. Uh, you want it to affect all of the characters surrounding this death. And I think you also want the reverberations to kind of be felt for a while. You know, you don't want just this death to happen and have it be a big moment. And then the next issue, everyone's kind of fine. You know? Um, obviously there are deaths that are also the end of comics and things like that as well. So going out in a big way can be part of it. Um, but regardless, I think meaning and lasting effects would be the the two things for me that you really want to see out of a good death, both in real life and in uh in comics, sure.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Yeah, absolutely. I'm going for a great comic book death personally. I'm hoping a big pose happens. Uh Nick, what about you? What do you got?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

I think Jake said it all. I think you know, obviously there's also, in addition to that, there's also the just the way the reader reacts to it. Uh I think one thing I love about mine, uh the you know, my choice for today is that it really even just skimming it before this episode, uh really started to make me choke up a little. Like you really feel a good death in fiction. And I think that there are a lot of deaths in comics, but very few make us feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah, absolutely. Especially with so many people in comics, as we said, do get to come back. So in a medium where it is so I don't want to say common, but it is standard practice that death is not necessarily the end. How do you make it meaningful when the reader in the back of their mind might be thinking, well, what if they come back? Or they probably will come back.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

It lives in the reaction of the characters. You know, there's the what one of the things that makes Spielberg a great director is the reaction shot. He knows that it's not just what's happening, but it's how what's happening makes people feel. So uh what is gonna make these deaths work, even if they think maybe this person might come back. Maybe, but that's not guaranteed. Nothing is guaranteed in life. Uh and so I think that effect on the characters is really what helps sell the moments, I think.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah, absolutely. Any other thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

No, I totally agree. I remember uh to cite another death in comics when Damian Wayne died, they have that, you know, everyone reacted across the bat line to it, but there was one the Batman or Robin issue that followed was a silent issue where Bruce just goes about his business and can't. He just tries to, and he you know, it ends with him you know breaking down and sobbing, and it was just really emotionally impactful. And even though we kind of knew Damien wouldn't stay dead for long, uh, that issue was a ton of fun just to live in that in that status quo and to feel that with these characters.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. There's so many examples of criticisms of character death that the main reaction is why did people move up move on so quickly? Right. Like if you're if anyone in your life dies, even tangentially related to you, it has such a huge impact on you personally. So it is, and I know there's so many reasons that sometimes happens in comics, especially the farther back we go in comics history, where it was just not being written in a format where we were expecting we wanted the stories to move. We wanted things to continue changing, and it was very adventure of the week focused. And as that's evolved, we've gotten gotten more and more opportunities to play out really fascinating story arcs relating to death. Um, one I was talking to Nick a little while ago when we were talking about this concept, the idea of like God country as kind of an example where this whole comic is about like a character walking towards death and how that becomes like the crux, the emotional crux of the entire series or the entire miniseries. Um you couldn't have had a comic like that back at the beginning. Like it's just there's no way, even just obviously for so many reasons. Um, yeah, but I think it's really interesting to see how death in and of itself has changed in comics. And we have two really great examples because we're looking at comics across a wide spread of time for this issue, which I think is a good transition. Do you guys want to introduce the comics you guys have chosen for today's best death in comics ever?

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Sure. Uh I'll start with issue number 121 of the Amazing Spider-Man, which is the death of Gwen Stacy.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

One that immediately all of us were thinking of as soon as the topic came up.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Because I I felt bad suggesting it because uh Nick is always calling me a basic B around the office. He's it's unrelenting. He's really brutal. Uh he is, and I played right into his hand here, but I couldn't help it. Uh to me, there was just no other no other choice. Yeah, you had to talk about Gwen.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

I think that's one thing we're all facing with this podcast, too, is like there's stuff we just have to talk about. If we're saying the best one ever, ever done, of course we're gonna hit some classics. So I'm really excited to talk about that one. And then Nick, what have you brought in for us today? Who is your sacrifice?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Um my sacrifice, yeah. I wasn't really content to go the side character, so I chose Spider-Man himself. Uh I went with uh the death of Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man number 160.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yes. Um, so I think we're talking about a span of, I believe it's correct me if I'm wrong, but 1973 to 2011, I think is when it came in 2011 and 2012. Um which obviously several ages of comics have passed between these two, uh, which is really interesting to talk about. So I just want to talk a little bit broadly about Spider-Man in general and his relationship to death. Another thing we talked about, also, can we shout out for those viewing at home, Jake tells us that's a perfect shirt for today.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

I did. I wore my shirt that is skeletons and spider webs.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah, we're we were talking a lot about Spider-Man almost more than any character, is so entangled with death. And the fact that we have two different Spider-Man comics as heavy hitter contenders for the best death in comics, I think is really telling about the series. And also just going back through the canon of Spider-Man, there's multiple other deaths we could have picked as a top death for him.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Absolutely. I mean, you know, it all starts with Uncle Ben.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Um, which was also a contender. But um yeah, I I think Spider-Man was one of the first real characters where they they were going out of the way to ground this superhero. He was a very normal person, and that's something that normal people face all the time. Um, and you know, Spider-Man in particular, he has, you know, the classic Parker luck. Like he's not lucky, he runs into misfortune all the time. Uh, you know, I mean, we we talk about Uncle Ben, but even before Uncle Ben, like his parents are dead before we even meet him. Like he starts having lost two parents. Now he's lost an uncle. Uh, not too far before this issue, Gwen Stacy's father dies, Captain Stacy. So, um, you know, he is a character that's sort of built around this very a lot of these very real and very relatable tragedies. Um, and I think that that's one of the things that made him feel more real. And talking about comics' ages, there's some people who talk about this issue as being the the sort of fulcrum point between the Silver Age and the Bronze Age, which is where comics went to being a little more grounded, a little more socially responsible. Um, you know, the classic Marvel line was it's the world outside your window. And it starts feeling a lot more that way here than it did with uh the Fantastic Four and classic Captain America and stuff like that. So um yeah, I think you know, Spider-Man has to feel grounded and few things ground us more than loss and death.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

They really jam-packed this issue, too, because there's also the subplot of Harry recovering from a bad acid trip, or you're still in a bad acid trip. And they're they get really preachy about that as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Well, that changed the comics code uh because previously the comics code had said you couldn't do drugs in comics. But uh I believe it was the government actually asked them to do, they knew that Marvel was very big with kids and counterculture. So the government said, Hey, can you do an issue about drugs? And they were, well, there's the comics code, but they actually got, you know, the comic code changed because of that storyline as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

And that was the previous one when it first is revealed that Fairy is on LSD. Yeah. It's really wild to look at how they're talking. I mean, speaking of a different era, to put myself in the mood for both of these comics, I was listening to the top 100 hits of the year they came out. So I was listening to Marvin Gay, Cher, all like all Elton John. So it's like really wild to put yourself in that mindset where like LSD is the big drug on the market, and there's like a lot of just str wild social, social cultural issues at play that like so far from now.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

But I mean, it's also very telling, and I think very I I don't know how those conversations went with the feds and those guys, but I I think it's nice that the person that they have having that experience is Harry. They don't introduce some rando character who is like, oh, here's Daryl, our friend you've never met before, but he's always a problem, and now he's doing this, you know. Like it was somebody that you liked that you knew that was a again, like a normal person, and this person had this problem that a lot of other people have.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

It's also really interesting that he is specifically a character of quite a bit of privilege. Yes. He's a man, he's rich, he's like a the only born son of like a billionaire. Yeah. Like he is incredibly privileged. And I think the doctor even has a line where he says, maybe if he hadn't been in such a fit of depression, it would have been different, which is like, I was surprised that line was in there. I'm actually surprised they weren't told to take it out for the sake of, you know, it's always bad, you know, from the comics code.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Um, but since we're we're getting into this, what talk us through what's going on in Spidey's life. We've already touched a little bit on Harry. What is going on with Spidey in the lead up to this and why why did this issue, why this one not um not Gwen Stacy's dad, not Ben, why this issue?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Well, uh what's going on in this is they had kind of recently broken up, Gwen and Peter, and they were just kind of starting to get back together uh when this issue happens. Um and for me, the big thing here is it's not just that Gwen dies, but it's that Peter plays a very distinct part in her death. Um and we'll get into this a lot, but I I I submitted this issue. I think it's a very powerful issue. I also sometimes think that it broke superhero comics a little bit, um in a way that's interesting. Um, but the fact that he's responsible, that there is the famous snap, you know. Um she was probably going to die anyway, but Peter's actions did it. And they're they're pretty clear about that, especially later on. Um again, that grounds the superhero and that changes things from these characters who are you know peons of perfect, you know, social attitudes and all this stuff, to people who can make deadly mistakes. Um and I I think for the story, it's fantastic. It's it's incredible drama, it's uh you know, heartbreaking. It is a real real gut punch of a story. Um but I also you know I worked at Marvel for 11 years, and it was something that I would have trouble with frequently was that like comics are superheroes are are kind of childish. And I don't say that in a bad way, they're wonderful that way. Um and I think that trying to mature them sometimes breaks them, you know? Um and I think like the thing I used to talk about to just goose people and make them angry at me, and I did it to Dave Wilgosh earlier, is say, like, if if Spider-Man was in the real world, we would all be J. Jonah Jameson. Like, everyone would be like, who is this lunatic who keeps going around webbing people up? Because those criminals would all also inevitably get off. They've been extraditiously like it was like he would be a menace, and people and he's also in a mask all of that. Right now, we've got a bunch of people, not to get terribly political on here, upset that there are these masked people who we can't hold accountable doing all of these things. He's a masked guy. We don't know who he is, he's taken all of this stuff into his own hands. Like Jonah's position is the sensible position. But we don't think that reading the book because we see into Peter's head and we know that he is a good man who is only trying to do well and is constantly selflessly putting himself in danger and all this kind of stuff. Um but in the real world, we wouldn't do that. And also in the real world, people make mistakes. And that is something where, like, I edited Punisher for a long time, and I had rules about the Punisher. Um, and one of the rules was that like he can't really make mistakes. And uh, Tom Brevor, who is like the guru over there at Marvel, I talked to him about Punisher a bunch. And one of the things he would say is every time someone gets given Punisher to write, one of the stories they want to tell is what if Punisher accidentally kills an innocent person? And Tom's response was always, that's the shortest Punisher story in the world, because the minute he kills an innocent person, he puts the gun in his mouth and he ends it. Like he will not allow himself to hurt uh an innocent person. And we can control that as the editors and the writers, we can say, like, well, yeah, Punisher can do all this stuff and blow up all these buildings and shoot all these guns crazy, and he never hits an innocent person because I said so. And that's what makes him okay, you know? Um, and Peter's, you know, I think all superheroes kind of work that way. So for Peter to be responsible for this death, even in this kind of roundabout way, uh again, thinking about him as if he was a police officer and he accidentally killed someone, you would kind of be like, I don't know if you should be out on the street with a gun anymore, you know? But because he's Peter and we know him and we love him, we go, Peter, put the costume back, like, get back out there and do it. Don't give up, Peter. You know? And so there's stuff about this issue that again, like, I love it, but I look at it and I'm like, man, it's kind of tough. It's a really tough issue. But I think it's also a testament to how good it is that I think a lot of people don't think about that stuff. And a lot of it, like, it's it's such a strong story that it it potentially does all of these kind of crazy things, but people just go, yeah, but it's it's great. It's Jerry Conway and Gil Kane just coming in hot, wanting to tell the best story they can. Jerry Conway was 21 years old when he wrote this, I think. Maybe 20. Um, you know, and he was like, he was about Peter's age, coming in here with something to prove, and you really feel it, you know. And I think also, um, you know, there's the whole fridging women conversation. And I think that that's where this is a little different because it's also Peter's fault. Like, I think a lot of times when we have the like fridging conversation, there's this idea of like, oh, it gives the, you know, someone else does this to a person so that the the hero has something to work against. Um here it is again the fact that Peter's culpable to some degree. Um, I think also challenges that notion a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Um I mean, I think it's very fair to say that, and perhaps there'll be something to say about this, but like Peter, as somebody who is naive and untrained, taking life and death into his hand, somebody died. So yes, it is his responsibility because he didn't know any better.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

He didn't know it was gonna happen. If he's taking on this much, shouldn't he know that this is a possibility? Shouldn't he have known that catching her that way is dangerous? And obviously, it's like the biggest consequence in the world for him. But I think that's a really interesting thing, talking about like the naivete, the childishness of a child of a superhero, because it takes a certain kind of person to put on a mask and go fight crime and think they can save the world.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, yeah. I can do this all better than anyone else, and I can do it unfettered from anyone else, too. Like he doesn't join the police, he doesn't work for any official agency. Like, he's like, no, I know better. I have to operate on my own. And again, as a fantasy, great story, you know, but the more you try to make that real, the more you're also kind of like, yeah, I don't know if that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

I think they might have a point. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

I might be J. Donor Jameson.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Um live long enough to become J. Dona Jameson. You all die a hero. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

We're all born a Peter Parker, but we live long enough to see ourselves become Jameson.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

There is a line in here um when he returns. Oh, it actually, it's in the issue after 22, one 22. Yes, which I read, I went and read both, which interesting parallel. We get a green goblin death with both of these as well, which I can't wait to talk about some of the parallels here. But they actually get a really funny uh Snyder Market editors. I can't remember exactly what he says. Um, but he goes in to get information on where Norman might be hiding after Gwen Stacy's death. And uh he is somebody he he goes into the office and like, you don't know the bad end of an editor or something. He's like, Well, where he's just making fun of editors for no reason. And I'm like, Roy, stay up, stay up for yourself. Roy, the editor at the time.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah, I'm sure Roy Thomas put that line in there about yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Well, there's so much to talk about on this one. I want to kind of turn to Nick now to give us an intro on what's going on, obviously, very different. So this is 121 of what will go on to be a very long-running series. This is the end of an ongoing series. So there's more to tell us, but for tell us what's going on in Ultimate Spider-Man, what's up with this issue, why this death. Obviously, there's a lot of deaths throughout the ultimate line. And this, you know, it we're far into comics history in 2011. Uh, for those wondering, on the music playlist for me on this one, it was Adele's Rolling in the Deep and LMFAO's party rocky at them. So a slightly different vibe um for this Spider-Man. What was going on in Ultimate?

SPEAKER_02 20:50

So in Ultimate, they kind of tried to recapture the you know world outside your window uh and kind of age it up a little more and make it more modern. Um and in this one it's very much you know, Spider-Man kind of learning his lesson almost. Like to what you said, Jake, about you know, the gall of this guy. Like there's leading up to the issue where he dies, there's a lot of talk of you know, this is a kid and he's gone out and he's not always making things better, and there are a lot of you know, the ultimates, the Avengers of this universe, are um just kind of debating the merits of Spider-Man and whether they like him or whether they should bring him on or whether he's too young. Um what happens in the final issue is all of Spider-Man's biggest villains have teamed up together and are coming to his house. They know who he is, and they're just common f they they kill him eventually. The fight like kills him. Um, and it is very much like you tried to do this yourself, and this it didn't work out. You know, people along the way have died, and now you are dead. But I think what's so beautiful about it is. He accomplishes his mission. He protects Aunt May. That was his whole thing. After Uncle Ben died, he just wanted to keep Aunt May safe. And he dies doing that. He dies protecting everyone he loves. And moreover, he doesn't leave Aunt May alone. It's such a you and you and Dave talked about it earlier in the office. It's such an odd status quo for the book toward the end where Aunt May's house is like a halfway home for all these people with superpowers. Gwen Stacy is living there, doesn't have superpowers, but uh the human torch and Iceman are both living there.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

And when Peter dies, she's you know, Aunt May is hugged by Gwen, MJ is there, these two boys are there, and it's it's it's all the more beautiful because he he gives her this family to look after and to look after her by the time he dies.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah. Speaking of, I would love to actually back up because I the story of the death of Spider-Man, I feel like starts in that, and and as they kind of knew in the one shot before Happy Birthday. Is it happy birthday, Peter Perker, or happy birthday, Spider-Man? There's a one shot right before the final arc.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

I can't remember, but yeah, it is uh they it's like a big surprise party that he walks into with Kitty Pride, and like everyone, everyone is there to greet him. And it's so it's such a funny, like deliberate send-off for him.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Yeah, and it's like him and MJ finally get back together. He also has a fantastic scene with uh Jay Jonah Jameson where he gets his job back at the bugle. Jay Jonah knows that he's Spider-Man, and they have this like final, like actually being on the same page, and they're both understanding each other. And it's knowing that he dies soon after that, I start to get like, he's he got it. Like he got the job, he got the girl. Like his, you know, and that's his final line is I did it. It's like he's like, I did it, it's okay. I wasn't, and he says something about like I wasn't able to protect Uncle Ben, but I was able to save you talking to Aunt May. And it's like, it's so good because it is really like he he dies, but he was able to actually achieve his mission. He also kills Green Goblin in that issue. I'd love to hear your thoughts on basically Peter's last act is killing another man. And then the actual final shot of the issue is uh Norman Osborne in flames on the edge of death. It just zooms in on his face smiling. And I thought that was wild. Like you ended on that guy. That guy's the worst person. And it's and it's such a reward of that premise to me of Osborne saying, like, I at least you'll be dead. Because Peter's like, Why are you doing this? You can't get your son back, you can't get your career back. And he's like, Well, you'll be dead. And he's like, I guess you're right. And I think it's it's really fascinating to see like Peter kind of coming to the same conclusion of like, I might die, but at least that guy will be dead and my family will be safe.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Yeah, I think it's and uh you know, obviously, Ultimate Spider-Man didn't really end there. They came back with miles, and uh, but Jake you may have to speak more to this. But uh Norman's alive, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Yes. Um I cannot remember exactly how all that works out.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

For some reason I can't divorce myself for being like pragmatic editorial mind about it, where to me it's like this guy's still around, like this guy's still here, um you know, teasing more because the I what I love about it's ironic that I'm saying this, because what I love about this issue is also that it tells a complete story. Like we get a beginning, middle, end of Spider-Man's career, uh, and it feels like the end is like, no, there's more coming. They they had more coming. Yeah. They did Ultimate Fallout, which starts with Peter's funeral and ends with the reveal that someone else is Spider-Man. Um I can't give like uh um a less pragmatic uh answer than that.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yeah, that and to talk about that, so we know that death is impermanent in these worlds. These are huge, massive deaths. Obviously, Gwen Stacy comes back, I believe you know, Ultimate Spider-Man, all these lines continue after this death. But I think what's really helped for both of them at the time is the fact that at the time it happened, it felt final, right? Because it's the end of you know, Peter's line. It's the end of that series. So though we know he might come back, we're like, it's probably gonna be a long time, right? Like it's the end of the series. Also, it's saying goodbye to that arc overall and that that stepping back from that world. And then Gwen, I think at the time it was just we're so early, you know, the idea of her coming back or being anyone else is Well, I mean, both of these characters never really came back.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Like Peter Peter Ultimate doesn't ever come back, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:03

I think they not in a huge way. They never bring back Ultimate Spider-Man with Peter as a headliner. Yeah. I think there's some implication in like Spider-Man at some point that he's like okay and living with MJ. Um but they yeah, neither of these characters really kind of they do a lot of like it's cloned.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yeah, when Gwen comes back, it's not really Gwen, it's that whole story is interesting, but also so funny about mainline Spider-Man is all the just the buffoonery.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

It's so funny picking up the average Spider-Man comic. When I first uh started reading Spider-Man years and years ago, uh I started with the superior Spider-Man because that when I was getting into Marvel, it was always a DC kid growing up. Uh when I was getting into Marvel, those like weird takes on characters, those weird eras that they had going on. It was the time where Jane Foster was Thor, uh Dr. Octopus was Spider-Man, um Thanos Winds was coming out was when I finally started picking all this stuff up. So I went back and read Superior Spider-Man. That was kind of like what I saw is you know, this things are so different, that's a great time to jump in. And it was I loved it, but also it was funny finding out like these people have been dead, these people have all dated, uh, these people have been Spider-Man. Like, so there's so much going on with the side characters in that book.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Yeah. Well, and also like talking about loving this issue, but also this being something that broke comics, uh I think one of the things about this, one of the reasons they killed Gwen, uh is that they also just kind of didn't know what else to do with Spider-Man and Gwen. Like, they felt like they'd come to this place where they like didn't quite know where to go with them. And it is the moment where I think they kind of officially decide that these characters can't grow up, which is something that again, like I always found kind of frustrating because like they couldn't get married, they couldn't do anything, like you can't have them progress much farther in life. So, like once something happens and gets to a certain point, you have to go, okay, well, now we have to tear it all down and start back over again. Um, which is so fascinating because they again like the Mary Jane romance lasts for ages, and they do eventually get married. And you know, uh that led to some fascinating storylines because people got tired of that but didn't know how to break it up. But um, yeah, just this idea that these characters have to be held in stasis. Um, but one of the things that makes both of these so compelling is that what they did last, like what they did actually holds um and and does change the characters irrevocably. Like it's very funny to me where it's like, well, we can't have Spider-Man and Gwen get married because you know that will change the status quo too much. So now we have to give him this dead love that will haunt him for the rest of his life. And that's way more showing. I do want to see them grow, and and they they do in both of these.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

I think um all the characters around Spider-Man in that old like Spider-Man's death changes everyone there and it lasts, and you know, in a way, he Ultimate Spider-Man's death is very he occupies like a Jason Todd role in the Ultimate Universe, where that the whole ten issues leading up to it, one of the big plot lines is that the ultimates are training him because they've decided we need to do something about this kid, but he's a good kid and he's gonna grow up and do this anyway, and we can't really stop him. So let's give him the training he needs. It's like uh there's an issue where he comes home, and Aunt May is sitting in the living room surrounded by SHIELD agents, and Carol Danvers, who was uh the head of SHIELD at the time, um and they tell him, like, you're going to superhero school, and it's like the big end of that issue. Um, so they've been looking after him, they've been trying to protect him, and he be you know, Spider-Man becomes like the little guy, the little sidekick that that hangs over them. And I don't know how long that lasts, but uh, you know, someone who hasn't read every issue of the Ultimate Universe, but it's it's a really fun thing that they play with immediately after his death.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

You know, it's also funny seeing the repercussions of this issue and how much this issue informs everything Spider-Man does. There's so much of it in the ultimate stuff because, like I say, like he and Gwen had recently broken up in this arc, and like they're broken up in ultimates, like, you know, because there was a big storyline right before this where someone's impersonating Spider-Man and Peter, and it becomes a whole thing. He does a bunch of terrible stuff, and um, and so like he and Gwen had broken up, and then in here, like they re reconcile, but they don't get back together. Very notably, Gwen is like, no, you belong with MJ. But like, there's kind of that stuff there. There is the sense, too, of like, you can't let a kid just go do this stuff, and he's going to get someone hurt, which is exactly what happens there. Like, there are all of these kind of echoes here because that's such a seminal story that you know Bendis is obviously having that in his head, knowing this important death is coming up.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Even the the childhood fantasy you mentioned that superheroes are enacting, like the childlike fantasy, I guess. Um, like it's I guess killing Spider-Man as a kid is almost like a perfect fulfillment of it because he doesn't grow up to change or to make it seem silly, or it's like this kid got in way over his head and it killed him.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yeah. I want to talk now, now that we've been talking kind of each issue, I want to talk a little bit about what's similar between them because we're talking about the same character, and there are some really interesting parallels in both, right? We have Green Goblin in both, we have a Green Goblin death in both. Another one I noticed is, and I think this just kind of makes sense, you know, Spider, uh Spider-Man's back is up against the wall. He's significantly injured or like in um like underhanded in both.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yeah, because he's sick in uh 121 and he's shot in that one. So yeah, he's he's hampered in both, absolutely. Um, which again, that's also that underdog nature of Spider-Man is so a part of that character. Um yeah, it is it is fascinating to see how firmly embedded the character of Spider-Man and like what makes a Spider-Man story. So when you have to make a huge Spider-Man story, you're like, well, here's the like you know, the and you know, again, they they both they move from Gwen to MJ and both as well, because there's that great issue after uh 121 where uh the issue ends with Peter having this freak out in his apartment with Mary Jane, and the last page of the issue is Mary Jane deciding she's like at this Peter's telling her to leave and she's at the door, and then she closes the door and stays in, and that's like setting the scene for what's to come, you know.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Which I I think that was such a beautiful ending. Yeah. I think it and I think it would have landed better for me if I'd read it as a as a book, but I read it online, so it was really funny. Like I hit next and it took me to the next issue, and it's like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_00 34:40

That's for your imagination.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Just to talk about some of those visuals, in both issues, we have incredible art for both of these. Obviously, some of the most famous panels in comics coming out of the coming out of the pages of 121. And then also, I mean, fantastic work going on over in the Ultimate Spider-Man, which I was thinking about this, uh Bagley, and I I believe I don't know the colorist name off the top of my head. Um, but looking at I think it was Ponzer, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Color and Bagley, and because Ponzer was on that whole run and was one of the best to ever do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

So it's um looking at these issues, and Bagley was also on the series from almost the beginning, correct? Like he was on for the whole whole run. So it's really wild to see this artist who's been with these characters so long getting to articulate this death so beautifully after spending this much time with them. And like I think the subtlety he was able to bring with it was like really incredible. But I I mean, we're talking about very different art styles here. We're talking about completely different eras. So now kind of like point and counterpointing the positives and negatives of these, right? So we brought these in. It's a you know, we're talking about they're both incredible issues by incredible teams. But if we had to start looking at meaningful impact long-term, what are our sort of our points and counterpoints about these issues to defend your own or possibly point out, well, maybe not for that issue. Who dares to go first? Anyone have any problems with either these?

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Well, I mean, like I've already talked about some of my problems with this issue. That like, you know, it it does, it does break a few things. And it does I I think maybe I was talking with Dave outside about this, but like to me, I kind of feel the way about this issue that when you talk to some cinasts about Jaws or Star Wars, where they're like, Yeah, those movies are good, but like they broke movies. Like after, you know, when you had the 70s and stuff, you would have eras where like Kramer versus Kramer was one of the most successful movies of that year. Like a divorce drama was one of the highest-grossing movies of all time. Uh, and then after you have these blockbusters, then everything has to be a blockbuster. And there are some people who blame you know those movies, and it's like, well, no, they're great movies. It's not their fault that everything afterwards changed. It's somewhat how I feel about this one a little bit. Um, as much as I also like, I don't know. I go back and forth on the growing up of comics in general, and it led to some incredible stuff. It led to some stuff I find really frustrating. But um I do think, you know, one of the things when you look at the art for both and the way both are written, um, it's so interesting how like operatic and soap opera the old stuff is. Um, everything's very heightened, you know. Again, like everyone's still working off of like those incredible Kirby poses and things like that. You know, like there's and you know, uh, I was talking about how young Jerry Conway was when this came out. Like Gil Kane was a veteran by this time. Like he, you know, he's got that like classic style. Um, and then you look at Ultimate Spider-Man, and there's the subtlety that you get into with Bendis' writing and Picelli's art and and um Bagley's stuff. Like, you know, they're great at finding these little moments and really making these characters shine in these small interactions and beautiful little bits. Um and it's just you know, comics had changed. Like comics were able to do that stuff. You could plan the stuff out more. Um, you know, I mean, you think about how long it takes Peter Parker to die. He gets shot and he's still got like five issues to go. It's wild. Um, yeah, it's it's out of control. Uh, but it's also great because you get all of these little moments. Uh, you know, like even the little moments in these these early issues still feel soap opery, still feel very, very heightened. Um so I think that's one of the differences. And I do think it's you can live in it a little more by the time you get to Ultimate Spider-Man dying in a way that's nice. I mean, like they still kept Gwen's death hanging over the book for a long time, but again, in a way that feels grandiose as opposed to in a way that people just sit with it in in like in the fallout issues and stuff like that. Um and that's nice, you know. Again, that that's a maturity that leads to some really good storytelling.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

What about uh on Ultimate? Do you think there's any where so obviously an incredibly meaningful death to the character around him uh around Spider-Man, it affects the whole world, it ends the run. But in terms of like impact, because this one's got impact and spades, it potentially marks like demarks the end of an era in comics, it begins a tradition, it it's changes so much about the way we tell stories in comics, or at least as like a the torch bearer saying we can do it this way now. This one is, you know, 2011, much farther. Comics has been really well established by the time we're getting to 2011. What do you think about like the impact of this comic and this death? Do you think it can stand up to the impact of something like the night Gwen Stacy died? An excellent response.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Well, what what you have to kind of say with this one though is Miles. Like that's what's on the other side of this book. And you know, that issue that introduces Miles in Fallout is beautiful. And I think the first issue of Miles Ultimate Spider-Man is beautiful. It's one of the best first issues of a character, like so beautifully laid out. Miles is such an incredible character. Um but that idea that Spider-Man's an idea really comes in here in a way that doesn't elsewhere because somebody else takes the mantle and that thing of legacy that Marvel has always had kind of a hard time with passing mantles, you know. Um, this is that's one of the few cases where it really, really plays. Um so I think that's kind of incredible. And the fact that Miles has become such a huge character, you know, that's been tried so many times and rarely ever takes.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

So interesting about this one is we talk a lot about how this is the end of the book. Um, but it's not really the end of the story. You know, and in the the way that ASN 121 keeps going, like this universe did keep going and these characters were still around. And and you know, I I think the difference is it it came out in 2011-2012 when you would try to get more number ones. Um so they rather than you know making it issue 161 Miles shows up the way they did, kind of the the way they did with Ky uh Kyle Rayner, you know, Green Lantern 51, we get a whole new character. Um they they took their time and then relaunched and introduced him in another miniseries and gave him his own book.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Before we get into kind of closing arguments, one thing I want to step back and ask both of you is as editors, is there something you think is especially important or a specific way to handle death? Because obviously deaths, especially in comics, can sometimes be uh rushed or flippant or overhauled in the next issue. So what are things you find incredibly important to and nuanced about a death when telling a story? And are there any deaths in particular that you guys have worked on as editors that you particularly think went, I don't know, if well, if the death went well, but you you think would it really nailed that?

SPEAKER_00 42:55

I mean, again, I think meaningful is the the crux under the the weight of what all this is weighed against. Uh and I I think it's tough because you don't want the deaths to be flippant, but you don't want to hold people in too much of a glass cage either. Um and so yeah, I think the question is you you just kind of have to earn it. And it's tough because everyone thinks that they've earned it. Like I think you ask anyone who's even written the most flippant comic book death you've ever read, they're gonna say, well, no, I actually think that was really in public. Like we needed this to happen or whatever. So I, you know, I think it's difficult because you just have to kind of see if it works. If it works, people won't have a problem with it. I say, knowing that that's not true because there are plenty of people who don't like the way Gwen Stacy dies in this issue or or the way other characters have happened that a lot of other people find meaningful. But um, you know, I think you really just have to sit with the story and say, like, is the juice worth? The squeeze here. Is this something where this death is going to really matter and mean a lot? And and not in a cheap way, but in a lasting way too. You know, thinking about how is this going to carry forward? Is this going to give our character the strength to fight for one issue and then whatever? Or uh, you know, are we really going to deal with this? Um, it's it's tricky. If it's if it's good, it works. And if it's not, it doesn't. You know?

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah, absolutely. Any particular death you've worked on that you think maybe.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

Yeah. Um, you said you were gonna ask this, and I'm like, oh, I I know. Uh I've definitely well, you know what? Here's the one. And this is actually one that I thought about doing. Uh, and this is a spoiler for the series. So uh if you have new exclusive. But if you have not read uh Dan Slot's Silver Surfer, just stop right now. Go and read the Silver Surfer run. It's gorgeous. Um, but the whole story of the Silver Surfer run is Silver Surfer, and I've now completely forgotten this woman's name. This is the ladybug. Like she wears her uh red and black polka dotted suit, and she's such a great character. And I'm sorry, Dan and Mike Aura, that I've forgotten her name right now. This is terrible.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Somebody quit Google.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

But uh, you know, the whole issue is this beautiful or the whole series is this beautiful relationship between the two of them. Um and there's a moment where, because they're out on their adventures, that character misses her father's death. And it's kind of crazy because in the story of the father is 100% drawn to be Dan Slot, and then Dan Slot kills them, which is which is a very Dan Slot thing to do. Um but um then at the end, I can't remember the mechanics, but they kind of get stuck in this weird time thing, and Silver Surfer just gives her a whole life, and it ends with her dying, and then he comes back. I get very emotional about these things. But it's so good. It's such the perfect way to end that book. I loved that book, and I'm telling you that I was part of that story, but I actually think I was off the book by the time I think I I think I ended up leaving that book like a few issues before. You know what it happened, but like, but let's be like, I think I primed the pump for that. Very good in a moment. That was all of you. Um But that like that's one of the ones that that immediately comes to mind for me of like a great death, great story, um that I was at least tangentially into that. Yeah, I think that counts. I think it absolutely counts.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Yeah. I mean, it is, I get emotional even hearing about it. Like when a death has that moment of like, they we lost them, but yeah. Like that's because that's what you can hope for, is that sense of like meaning because you don't want it to just be they're gone and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does a good job of that. You get the feeling that that's you know, going to last with the silver surfer for a long time. Even if the next person doesn't pick up on it, someone could in 15 years, and everyone who has read that will go, Of course. Well, yeah. Silver Surfer still feels this way about nameless character.

unknown 47:27

Don Greenwood.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Don Greenwood. That's it. Don, I love you. I'm so sorry. Um but yes, the beautiful death of Don Greenwood. Um, yeah, stunning.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Nick, have you got a favorite death you've been worked on or tangentially associated with?

SPEAKER_02 47:44

You know, I haven't really had any in my career. No one's died on my watch.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Um look out, Rocketeer.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

He's coming for you. You can't kill her.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

You have no idea what I can do. I think the closest to a death I've gotten, it was like an immediate like fig. It was like a Bruce Wayne death. Um but at the end of uh the first TMNT IDW ongoing series, you know, Donatello is stranded in the space-time continuum for like a year and comes back at the end of it, and he comes home uh to Northampton, you know, the to April O'Neill's family's farmhouse, and it's winter and it's the snow, and everyone is there, all his family is there. Yeah, they're building a snowman, they're having fun, and he just kind of steps out of a portal and looks horrible. He looks awesome, you know. But he just you can tell he's been through it, and he's just been trying to get home for a year, and everyone runs up and is so happy to see him, and they just like all hold him and they cry, and it's the issue just ends on that. The run ends on that. Yeah, it's a beautiful issue. Yeah, but that's not a death. Not exactly. But it is like a reaction to reaction to getting something back, yeah. Which I think it's something that people try to pay off a lot when they bring back characters that were killed off, and it it doesn't work too often. I think it works less than a than a death. Yeah. Um but when it can land, it's really nice. And I think part of why that one works is because it happened within the same issue. You know, there was no long status quo of us trying to pretend and trying to get everyone in on the bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Um, now that we've really discussed every single angle of these comments, explored their history, their meaning, everything in between, it's time for closing arguments because only one of these characters' deaths gets to leave this stadium alive because we have to kill the other one that loses. So, as it is essential for any argument, I would like to hear your closing arguments. Why is your character death deserving to be called the best comic book death of all time?

SPEAKER_02 50:13

I said it earlier, but it it's kind of he accomplishes the mission. He saves Aunt May, he saves his friends, he saves his family, saves his girlfriend, and you know, they he he leaves no one alone. I think there's something to I I can't imagine a greater barometer of a life well lived. I think that's so what makes Peter Parker's death in Ultimate Spider-Man so impactful is he just he did such a good job. He tried really hard, he did his best, and it just brought people to him, good and bad, but he was able to keep the big the good people together, and I think that it yeah, it left so much and and it it also it paved the way for the future, it paved the way for miles, and I I think it's it's beautiful as an ending to his story, even if it's not the end of Spider-Man's story.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

It's one of the true great endings in superhero comics, which don't usually get endings at all.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

Um and it is a nice counterpoint where both it's something you said earlier that I really love that both he and Norman accomplish their missions, but you see how different their missions were. Like you know, so often the the villain is the dark mirror or foil of the hero, and it's kind of beautifully done there of like, yeah, both these guys got what they want, but look at what this guy wanted, and look at what this guy wanted. You know, like it really, really puts into relief who's a hero and who's a villain, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

And it's something that even when this happened, people talked about how nothing like this could happen again, you know, to have 160 issues plus whatever other tie-ins Bendis did when he wrote this series. Uh, and the 110 plus that Mark Bagley drew. Like, that's simply we don't get those anymore. We don't get runs like that anymore on a single character, on a single title. Um yeah, it's it's it's irreplicable at this point in this industry.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

Yeah, I remembered reading an anecdote um where Benda said he cried for like 45 minutes after he finished writing the issue. And it's you can really feel that in the pages. It is that emotional. I apologize if that's a misquote. I'm pretty sure he said that. Otherwise, he's just a big crybaby and I'm falling out.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Cried after every issue.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Yeah, he was like, that was the shortest time. Um final arguments. Um The night Gwen Stacy died.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Yeah, I mean, ultimate Spider-Man's death is a great death, but it couldn't have happened without Gwen. There's so many echoes of the Gwen death there, and so many echoes of the Gwen Death across all of comics. It's one of the most meaningful, impactful stories. Uh, you know, it's daring, it's beautifully told. It lived with the character forever, one of the greatest characters in all of storytelling history. And Gwen's death is part of what makes Peter Parker who he is, even when he's a different Peter Parker. So uh yeah, I it it's it's undeniable, I think. Gwen uh is the the death that shook comics.

SPEAKER_01 53:39

When it comes to comic book deaths, there's so much to talk about um the good, the bad. Was it the right time? Did they earn it? And what does this mean for the character going forward? Is this going to last? Are you shorting the audience's expectations? Are you cheaping their experience? And I think both of these comics are an absolute testament to what comics can be. One that marked the beginning of that journey, and then one that might, some I'm sure, will say is like a pinnacle of the example of like the greatest thing comics can achieve. And looking at the meaning and the impact of both deaths, I think both of these characters brought so much to the comic reading world. Um, Gwen Stacy, her sacrifice um went on to open numerous conversations about the death of characters in comics, how we handle that, as well as influencing the trajectory of several beloved characters moving forward. Um, and Ultimate Spider-Man, on the other hand, was a character that kind of opened up and like brought like offered a welcoming hand to a whole new generation of comics readers. And with all of this considered, I think while both selections are absolutely fantastic, and I wouldn't change either of these issues, I think the award for best comic death, based on its articulation, emotional impact, and meaning to the comic book community, is Ultimate Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

Oh, and I won't be conflicted.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Send comments to Ellen Boner.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

They're really important.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

I know they're both really important. I think for me, what it comes down to, and I was so conflicted in this conversation, because for me, what it comes down to is, and I believe everything I just said, both of them are fantastic. I love so much of the story. What this comic was doing was so ahead of its time. It was so ahead of its time it created or it like was the hallmark for a new era in comics. Um but for me, I think there is a sense of closure that we get out of the death in Ultimate Spider-Man that because this is the middle of the run, we can't have. And I think it's something that while it's beautifully done in so many ways, I think the fact that this death is like the closure of the series, the ultimate reward for the reader. And it felt meaningful and it was like a journey that felt so complete and not just a part of a longer journey that would go on to have many more deaths and many more ups and downs, and did hang over the story as we've talked about Gwen Stacy's death, incredibly important to Peter. Um I think ultimately is uh it does the moments in the ultimate line really almost make me cry every time. Specifically, one of my favorite we didn't talk about is the moment when his neighbor said, You are Mae Parker's boy, aren't you? And it's like the moment when his neighbors see that it's him. And I think that's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Yeah. I think one thing we didn't talk about is the the covers for this issue, too. You know, uh ASM 121 had a beautiful cover we were talking earlier about just how great and eye-catching that is. One thing that's interesting about Ultimate Spider-Man is this this cover that's on the shelf of Spider-Man walking away with Uncle Ben, you know, walking into the light. Um that's not the A cover. That's not the main the main cover, it's just like a sick pinup uh of Spider-Man jumping into action. But I feel like there's this this cover does so much to add to the issue, it's so additive to the story because it's really a story about Spider-Man kind of it's odd to phrase it like this because he died, and that's not good. He was a 15-year-old boy that died, but for our purposes, he he kind of got what he deserved. He got to rest. Yeah.

unknown 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

I mean, I I did like you're wrong, and I appreciate it. But what I will say is like this one set a template that a lot of people have copied and and used and that kind of thing. The thing about Ultimate Spider-Man is it is kind of singular. Like it's hard to think of any other death, particularly in like mainstream superhero comics, that felt that way, um, that did what that did. I mean, you really do have to look outside of things that are like corporate IP controlled, and the fact that something like that actually happened and lived and stayed the way it was, um is is incredible. And and again, like a pretty singular achievement that only Bendis at that time probably could have done.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

I do think there's something to be said that I completely agree, Ultimate Spider-Man and that death could not have happened without the work in the original series for many obvious reasons, but specifically Gwen Stacy's death. And I think there's a lot of conversations that began because of this issue that allowed them to do what they've done in this series. So what birthed it, and then maybe what perfected it, on the other hand.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

So I think there's such different deaths as well, whereas Gwen's is kind of insane with Jason Todd, and any any time someone loses someone, a superhero loses someone close to them, is you know, they're kind of they're almost relearning the lesson they learned in the first place. You know he's re-experiencing Uncle Ben when Gwen dies. You know, it's and and this time it's almost he has all this power, he and he has all the the the morals, and he he was there and it still didn't work. And I think that's an interesting thing to give someone like that, someone who's dedicated the their life to making up for this thing that he feels like he couldn't do, just in the way you know, Batman is trying to save his parents all his life, but sometimes he fails all over again.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

Well, we've done it. And I think we've I think we all should uh maybe have worn black for this. But um I think it's time to finally lay these characters to rest. They and these creative teams, thank you, everyone involved on these issues and on the team. These you gave incredible stories to the world of comics, and thank you for making this a hard decision. Um Yeah. So I think that's all we have here for Superlatives. We'll see you next time. Hey, thanks for listening. If you liked hearing our thoughts on other comics, you should check out our comics, available at any local comic book store or online at idwpublishing.com.