Superlatives
Welcome to Superlatives—the show where comics go head-to-head.
Every episode, we pick a Superlative Theme. For example, "Best Comic Character Death."
Two of our editors each nominate a comic they think deserves the title, then step into the ring to make their case.
When the arguments are done, our moderator delivers the final verdict—deciding which comic walks away with this episode’s superlative.
Superlatives
Best Comic Crossover
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You know what makes your favorite thing better? ANOTHER favorite thing entering the ring. Whether its a team-up or a fight to the death, crossovers have been a classic comic trope since the dawn of time. The question is: which one reigns supreme?
Superman vs. Spiderman and Terminator x Robocop take the stage.
Welcome to Superlatives, the show where comics go head to head. Every episode we pick a superlative theme. This week, it's best comic book crossover issue between different companies. Two of our editors each nominate a comic they think deserves the title, then step into the ring to make their case. When the arguments are done, our moderator, which is me this week, delivers the final verdict, deciding which comic walks away with this episode's superlative. My name is Dave Wilgis. I'm a comic book writer and a contract editor here at IDW. I'm also the first person to lose this show twice. Can I lose as the moderator? Today we're gonna find out. Here are the editors competing against each other today and the books they'll be representing.
SPEAKER_02Hey, I'm Jake Williams. I'm an editor at IDW Comics. I'm also the reason Dave's a contract editor because of the way he treated me. He's now on probation. Uh today I'm representing the Battle of the Century. Superman versus Amazing, uh the amazing Spider-Man. Uh it's uh the greatest superhero team up of all time.
SPEAKER_04Hi, I'm Nicholas Nino. I'm uh also an editor at EW, and I am also the reason that Jake found the courage to speak up against Dave Wilgus. Today I will be representing Robocop versus Terminator, which is this issue too. Uh the greatest crossover of all time.
SPEAKER_02No, mine says that on the cover. Yours isn't that's not part of the title. Yes, mine is in flipped there. Wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_00They didn't need Twitter online. Everyone knew. Alright, the combo crossover, a time-honored tradition. Uh there are times in comics where we don't. What if we just what uh how are you doing? Uh me? Yeah, how are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm sorry we'd be here with you guys today. Are you sure? Yeah. Wait, Dave, you went to Emerald City Comic Con. I did, yeah. Yeah. How was that? It was kind of like a crossover. I went to a place I'm usually not, and I went to a place where other people are, and then Dave Wilkes from LA. Yeah, yeah. This is crazy. That is crazy. So the way comic book events are like crossovers with creators.
SPEAKER_02Now, did you see other creators and before you realized you were allies, did you get into some like misplaced battles?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a section on the floor for fights next to artist alley.
SPEAKER_02I see.
SPEAKER_00And then there's a friend zone where you like have a coffee and catch up and go, what's going on? Do you also have like a complicated origin?
SPEAKER_04Where did you spend your time?
SPEAKER_00Artist Alley. Artist Alley? Not in Friend Zone or Fight Zone? Nope. I was mostly in Artist Alley. People know me, I'm a known quantity. I've already had my fights in these industries.
SPEAKER_02Now, Dave, was there a person that you had heard of their name for a while that when you saw them, you maybe were like, I don't like your vibe, but by the end of the weekend you were having a great time? There was a couple people I'd never met before where by the end of the week I was like, I like the cut of that guy's jib.
SPEAKER_00I think we're gonna be friends.
SPEAKER_01That's a positive thing.
SPEAKER_00I I I'd never met Tony Fleaks before, the great Tony Fleeks, and we had dinner together and uh we were on the same flight back, and he was uh a lovely, lovely man on top of being uh one of the best and most uh celebrated people in our industry currently.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_00We did not fight though. I think he would have bested me.
SPEAKER_04Well, Nick Tony versus Dave, who comes out on top Tony versus Dave. Now that's interesting. I've only met uh Tony the once, and it was very briefly, but he is uh he is a looming presence. He's much taller than me at least. Um I do think that counts for a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, height's important. That's important in a fight. That's the thing. All these power scalers, they rarely talk about height. We're gonna talk a lot about power scaling.
SPEAKER_04It's assumed to be like similar heights, it seems like like Batman and Superman are always kind of the same. Yes, yeah, yes, typically.
SPEAKER_02I mean I like when Batman's a little shorter.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I love that. Do you see that Pat Gleason cover? Remember that one?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, some of the shorter and that's shorter. Yeah, I love that one. Yeah, I should yeah.
SPEAKER_00So again, today we're talking about combo crossovers, a timeline or tradition in our industry. Uh, there are moments in the Nick and I are doing well. Yeah, you guys are doing whole. I'm so sorry. You guys aren't really a crossover, you're more of like an everyday. Tony Fleeks was so mad at you when you guys met you're more of like a Batman and Robin or like uh like a super Spider-Man, the human torch, just like something we get very often, but we still enjoy it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Nick and I are roommates, and we were roommates before we started working together at IDW. So that's crazy. We met at a comic book store, and it wasn't that we started as enemies, but I didn't know his name for a long time. And then the first time that I remembered his name, we started talking about comic books.
SPEAKER_04That was cool. I I didn't know his face for a long time. I would confuse him with someone else that works there.
SPEAKER_02Dave has severe facial blindness, that's why I had to grow the mustache. He couldn't separate me out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, now you have more of like a Los Felos face.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, now I confuse him and Dave, even though Dave has a full beauty.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was gonna say, all three men on this podcast are wearing hats, Dave. Only one of them is bald. Is he guess who? This is the hat podcast.
SPEAKER_04Can we change this to a topic of like the biggest hats in pot in comics? Uh uh the biggest hat. Matt hatters. Matt Hatter. Yeah, doesn't the thinker have a hat or a helmet?
SPEAKER_00Probably not bigger than Matt Hatters. I don't think it's bigger than Matt Hatters. Matt Hatter is also like a shorter character, so his hat is even taller than that.
SPEAKER_04Like, not so literally, it's like most prominent, most important.
SPEAKER_00I don't think it's Matt Hatter. I think Jake's right. I think he nailed it in one.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02So uh what were we talking about? Oh, how we met. So then uh we met. They I'd say anyone who gets hired at IDW, I go through a team up relationship with where like I hear they're getting hired, I'm like, what are we doing? Why are we bringing in someone like that? Well, what uh what do we what do we want from them here? Yeah, you know, because I'm just like, just let me do it. And they're like, no, we're bringing in Dave. And then I met him and he knew about all the podcasts I like and all the alternative comedy things we like.
SPEAKER_00All the bands.
SPEAKER_02All the bands that I like. Yeah. So things are pretty good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's he mob worked out. It worked up uh and that's been a long-term success.
SPEAKER_04In the office, we have uh desk far away in a different corner for Jake where he can just kind of He looms large and watches over everybody.
SPEAKER_00It's like a loft area.
SPEAKER_04It's it's kind of a problem because it's like you're it's a solution to a problem of Jake always being confrontational with people when they walk in the office.
SPEAKER_02None of that's true at all. Stop joking around. This is this is fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Can we be serious for a second? We're about to get serious. Jesus. Yes. Uh, because as I said, uh there are times in this business where crossovers are in vogue and crossovers are out of vogue. Right now, crossovers are wildly in vogue. Marvel and DC are teaming up again for the first time in decades. Uh, even at our company, IDW, we've done some pretty terrific crossovers lately, including TMNT Ninja Turtles and TMNT Batman. Uh, crossovers are very fun.
SPEAKER_02You corporate show.
SPEAKER_00You know, I'm just talking about stuff. I personally go back and forth on how much I like crossovers. I think because they were out of vogue when I was coming up in comics in the in the mid-2000s, JLA Avengers had happened and it felt like it slammed the door on the crossover for a long time. I was like, oh, we don't really need to do this. We don't need to talk about these. Now they're in vogue again, and I'm a little older, I'm less of a snob, and I'm like, this is just fun. We're having a good time. And I think these two books you guys have brought today represent the two different types of crossovers. Uh, Jake and Superman Spider-Man, I think you have, you know, two iconic combo companies bring their two most iconic characters together in what was truly the event of a century.
SPEAKER_04Batman erasure.
SPEAKER_00And now we're gearing up for the well, Batman's fine. He's gonna be fine, guys. And now we're dealing, we're gonna we're about to have the second uh team up between those two characters. I think I have that right. Uh second and third in a couple weeks with uh the release of Superman, Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Superman, one from DC, one from Marvel, reuniting these characters once again. And Nick, your crossover is kind of a thing that at the time could only happen in comics where you bring together two pop culture titans in uh what is like a budgetless environment in comics where you can just do the most epic, cool thing that at the time you certainly couldn't do in a movie. Uh, I think that's now changed since we've had movies like Alien vs. Predator and certainly other crossovers, but like, you know, there was a long time in the 90s, especially from Dark Horse, where like these type of crossovers only happen in comics and really set a pop culture precedent. So I'm really excited to hear you guys both talk about them today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just to kind of follow up on what you were saying about like going back and forth on crossovers, like to just talk about crossovers as a concept first. Like I I think I think crossovers are tough. I think they're tough. I think that in general when I hear about a crossover, I'm not like typically that excited. Like it has to really feel right in a way, but it's not something that I I don't know. And it's something that's so uniquely comic, so there is something that I like about it there, but it just kind of feels like you know, you kind of know what's gonna happen, you know they're gonna meet each other, they're gonna stiff kind of tussle at first and then join forces to go after a greater anime. And it's like it's the type of thing where people are like, Whoa, isn't it so awesome that X character is meeting X character? But it's like you can just like daydream about that as well. You don't need someone else to always do your daydreaming for 100%.
SPEAKER_00I mean, especially now that we live in the time of like fan we've lived in a time of like fan fiction, like fan-created art. You know, you see a lot of kind of stuff online where people are like, if this happened, this would happen. And unfortunately, now with like some tools we're not gonna talk about, people are making crossovers in a way that's illegal, gross, and not cool.
SPEAKER_02Um but actually, you know, the AI crossovers are so bad and so stupid that I actually think it kind of shines a light on why these crossovers are good and cool.
SPEAKER_00You're absolutely right, yeah. You're absolutely right. And again, like the the thing that's awesome about both of these is I think you know, so in in the 90s, there was a lot of crossover between Marvel and DC, and there's a lot of good ones, but they had they were doing so many at that point that, like, you know, you didn't always get like um super top-tier talent on every single one. I'd say like on these two books, you get some pretty incredible people joining forces, and I think that's the thing that can also make the difference in the crossover, like, well, who's doing it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you know, to talk about Superman uh versus the amazing Spider-Man. You know, back then these crossovers, and these are both great examples, the creative teams are absurd for both of these. Uh they made them feel momentous. It felt like a big deal, and the companies are treating it like a big deal. Like, uh, one thing you'll notice about this book as you get into the creative team is that the credited editors are the editor-in-chiefs of the company. Yes, you know, it is Carmine and Fantino and Stan Lee as the credited editors. It's written by Jerry Conway, who was the first writer to take over the Amazing Spider-Man after Stan Lee passed the torch. He also at the time was working at DC. So he had just jumped ship. He was at DC Comics at this point. So he'd written The Amazing Spider-Man, jumped ship, he's the person that killed Gwen Stacy, jumped ship to be over at DC, who was an editor there working at the time, was also writing on some of their biggest properties. We then have Ross Andrew on Art, which is one of the only people that at the time who had drawn both Spider-Man and Superman. Yep. Lettered by Dick Giordano, uh, no, sorry, inked by Dick Giordano, lettered by Gaspar Saladino, colored by Jerry Serp. And uh yeah, it's just a it's just a team of all-stars, you know. Uh, you know, you have a sick thing at the start of this where both Stanley and Carmine kind of have a little write-up about how this came to be. And I think the biggest thing that I kind of learned coming into comics was like, oh, if you have a big property, it must be easy to get a big name to come like right on it for you. And oftentimes that doesn't seem to be the case. And almost every cool thing that happens in comics, whether it's like a new creative team or someone coming over to a book or leaving one company for another, is because of relationships. You know, you find that out really early. It's like they're friends with each other, they networked in some way, like they have some personal connection that brings so-and-so onto Xbook. And the reason the DC and Marvel crossover happened is because Stan Lee and Carmine used to be creative partners. They had they had Stan had written stuff that Carmine had drawn back in the day. So they found themselves as the head of these two companies and they're buds, so they just were like, Oh, we should have these characters cross over at this point, you know?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is also, I believe, I'm forgiving what year this is published, but this is, I believe, relatively close to the first Superman movie. And like, we're talking about a time where Superman is the biggest, one of the biggest figures in American pop culture, and the Amazing Spider-Man is not too far behind in terms of like breaking out from just being in comics and becoming a like mass national figure. Yeah, you know, and like seeing these two characters together, again, like I know it sounds silly, but like they're both red and blue, they both work for news organizations. Like, you just look at the them together and you're like, Yeah, man, I want to read that. Like on a chemical, yeah, like animal level, you're like, I want that. I want I want that.
SPEAKER_02Now, at the time, had Spider-Man and his amazing friends come out yet? This is like 76.
SPEAKER_00No, that that cartoon was in the 80s, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that's kind of interesting then because we're at a point where Superman had been around for like 30 plus years at this point. And Spidey was about what it had been 10 years old? Like he's about his 10-year anniversary.
SPEAKER_00If that's 76, Spider-Man debutes in 62, so we're talking about 14 years, yeah. Half half the length.
SPEAKER_02Half the length, yeah. And and you feel that when you're reading the comic a bit, like it's very clear that Superman is the elder statesman and Spider-Man's the new kill on the block. But I think that's just such a cool thing that Marvel did in just about 15 years was just like their stuff was big enough that they were crossing over with you know with the face of superhero comics. You know, Spider-Man had already in 76 reached that pedigree and was able to like go toe-to-toe with Superman, which is super cool. So getting into kind of the meat of this book, so obviously, you know, part of the reason I pick this is just because it is kind of the first major intercompany crossover, right? It is DC and Marvel collaborating for the first time. We just hit the 50th anniversary of this book, and I think that's kind of what makes it such a big deal, like such a momentous occasion. As we talked about, like a crossover is only as big and as important as the companies make it feel, and they made it feel like a big deal, you know. They released this massive oversized book. It's basically a graphic novel that released in one large issue. The art is like incredibly cinematic, it really feels like you're looking at a blockbuster as you're going through this. I mean, there's so many of these just beautiful splash pages that really make you feel like you're on the street watching Superman uh work. And then I'd say an interesting thing about this crossover, and something that that book does as well. I think a lot of modern crossovers use like some sort of portal technology or interdimensional travel to bring the characters together. Yeah. Where I really love the trope of just like, oh hey, Superman, we exist in the same world. Welcome to New York, buddy. Just leave it be. They just leave it be, just have it be that Superman Z doesn't live in New York. That's why they haven't ran into each other, you know? Why won't they run into each other again? Who cares? Yeah, you know, but for this comic, they exist in the same earth, and I think that's like a great way to do it. When Lex Luthor and Doc Ock run into each other later on, they just know of each other. Doc Ock knows who Lex is, Lex knows who Doc is. It just makes sense. It makes it you don't have to spend all your time explaining what's happening and being like, I'm from a different world. This is crazy on your world. You can just have them meet as human beings, which is just way better for storytelling. So the one thing about this comic that I think uh maybe points off for a bit is it takes about half the book before Spider-Man and Superman actually interact. There's a lot of time before that. So we get like a pretty long chapter of Superman just kind of being Superman, and at the end of it, he finds out at this like news conference, it's gonna happen, and then Spider-Man just being Spider-Man, and at the end of it he finds out at the news conference, it's gonna happen, and then we cut to the villains that meet each other first, and finally we get the intro of Spider-Man and Superman.
SPEAKER_04And the book really relishes that too. Yes, it really loves the amount of time it's taking to get to the team.
SPEAKER_00It almost feels like a test. Like, I mean, uh, you know, uh one thing that we know about from behind the scenes is like these guys were kind of testing each other about like how how they were treating each other's character, and we know that you know there did they did a couple of these crossovers at the time. They also did um Batman and the Incredible Hulk by Len Wien and Jose Luis Garcia Lopez. But the the the king of the crossover that didn't happen for decades was JLA Avengers. And you can read about that online or in any edition of the book. Those guys were going back and forth, going, no, you don't get this character, no, you don't get this character, they can't be doing this, they can't be doing that. So this first chapter is almost like the companies being like, Yes, that is Superman, yes, that is Spider-Man. Yeah, now you can continue. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's almost like you have to like pass this like character test before you can let them meet each other.
SPEAKER_02Sure, sure. And yeah, it is, I mean, it is a fun thing, kind of building suspense, tension, I don't know, it's just ramping up to like, come on, when are they gonna meet? When are they gonna meet? You know, slowly building to it. I think a really fun thing in here is sometimes with characters or properties, like you know, you can imagine a world where Marvel didn't want Spider-Man to look weak, where instead they understand that hey, Superman's power set is just he's way stronger than Spider-Man. So like when Spider-Man finally does like when Superman gets like full strength back and Spidey hits him, it like hurts his hand, right?
SPEAKER_00One of the greatest beats of the issue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which is just fantastic.
SPEAKER_04It's fun when these craft servers do that when they just kind of recognize like no Spider-Man would lose. Yeah, like even in within the company, like Superman would beat the snot out of Batman. Like, so what else can we do?
SPEAKER_00That is such a Spider-Man beat, right? Where it's like, oh, I'm not like Spider-Man's not always the strongest character in a comic. Even in his own comic, he might come up against the Rhino or the Juggernaut. Like you like that he is like the little the little engine that could so, of course, like yeah, him punching Superman in the face of Superman falling down is almost like completely out of character. People would be like, that's nonsense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes sense to keep him as the underdog, which is a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_04Well, I like that he's like he's cocky in it too. He really loves beating up Superman. Yeah. He's really feeling that when it does happen. He's like, I've had a terrible day, people are bossing me around. I love that I can just whoop this guy around for a little. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Another really fun thing about this crossover is, you know, Superman and Spider-Man, as you were saying, they have a lot of things in their lives that go hand in hand. Like uh, the most obvious being that they are both newspaper men, you know. So they're at this newspaper conference, their secret identities are actually what brings them together uh for the first time in this issue. And we get to see uh Jay Jonah Jameson interact with a character that seems that's I that I guess is Superman's boss at the time that's familiar with. I haven't read a lot of that era comics.
SPEAKER_00So this in this era, this is actually like one point I'll I'll be bringing up later. But yeah, his boss's time was Morgan Edge, who had I believe bought the Daily Planet, and Clarkhand at this time is also a news anchor. He's a news anchor, which you're like, I mean, that might be a little challenging given. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also like at the time, like that was their version of like modernizing the character, you know. Where today it would be like, you know, the Daily Bugle's like a or I'm sorry, the Daily Planet is like a you know a cool like Huffington Post-esque website or whatever, where at the time it was like, just put them on TV.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Even then the newspaper thing felt antiquated, and it's like, well, that's crazy because I believe uh all the president's men comes out this year around this time. It's like, no man, newspapers are cool. Just let them work in a newspaper, you know.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's just a super fun issue. It's it's it's mostly monumental just because of what it is, but it's a really fun time. It's fun to watch Mary Jane uh, you know, uh interact with Lois. And uh yeah, you know, I think it's just fun. Just a fun book.
SPEAKER_04It's a beautifully colored book. Like I love the way it pops over there. I loved uh these these facsimiles that DC are doing uh whoever put that out. They're really fun. Like I loved just like it felt like a newspaper. Yeah, it felt like reading a newspaper. It felt like a little kid at the breakfast table, dad's got his newspaper, I've got my big copy of Superman Spider-Man. Like every time I opened it.
SPEAKER_02Was this originally released as Treasury Edition sized? Is that how it came out?
SPEAKER_00I think so, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's another thing. Like just understanding that it's that much of a moment that it comes out in that massive oversight.
SPEAKER_00I mean, imagine being like a kid in the car driving a vacation, you got this thing with you, you're like, this is the greatest day on earth, you know. Um so one thing I will say is like we talked about the Superman Spider-Man scene where Spider-Man punches Superman he gets his hand hurt. I do wish there would be a scene between Lex Luther and Doc Ock where he was like, where Lex Luther was like, hey, um, can we talk about your haircut for a minute? Doc Ock was like, What do you mean? He's like, hey man, it's um it's rough. Like, I think you should consider shaving it off. Like, you know, I think I think you'd be happy as a bald man. I think that would have offended Doc Ock, and they could have gotten to their own kind of huge fight. And I think that's a missed opportunity.
SPEAKER_02I like that. Speaking of that, this did remind me because they they do these uh little like uh uh hero identification pages throughout. And we get to one that's the villain identification page, and it reminded me of a piece of uh Lex Luthor's lore where Superman causes him to an experiment gone wrong in his youth while he's friends with he's at in Smallville, friends with with Clark Kent, and an experiment gone wrong causes him to lose his hair, and that is the turning point to villainy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because in retrospect, I I haven't read the issue, but I've seen the cover. I think a lot of us have seen the cover of the issue where Lex loses his hair, and that is a key issue. I've read the issue. It's considered like a minor key. I haven't read it, but in retrospect, it just kind of feels like a funny thing that happened. It's funny they had to explain that. They could have just made him bald.
SPEAKER_00Just so we don't have like an editor caption at the bottom, I should say, like, I I uh I worked on the new history of the DC universe, so a lot of stuff about Lex's hair. I know, I know every version of Lex losing his hair.
SPEAKER_02It's so funny that it was important. What's the current answer?
SPEAKER_00I think we I think it is a I think it is a version of it where like he does do an experiment that goes wrong that Clark could have prevented, um, but it's a little more model for the biggest.
SPEAKER_01Why can't he just be bald? What's crazy about it? It's not the thing.
SPEAKER_00If you lose your hair when the younger you lose your hair, I think the more spiteful you are about it, you know. Like if you lose, like I lost my hair when I was in my early, like my late teens, early twenties, and I was like, you know, a little spiteful. But if I hadn't lost my hair when I was like 15 or 60, I would have been like, the world is gonna wreck a couple of years in terms of meeting a super. Like a humbled person, you know?
SPEAKER_04Like a if if this is a quick answer. How does Lex get hair? Because in the death of Superman, Lex has like beautiful blue hair on Australian accent. I think he's like pretending to be his own nephew to be.
SPEAKER_00It's like a clone thing. Those comics are really rad, but explaining in retrospect is a little complicated, but yeah, he has like a crazy rub.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's a fun option for men who are embarrassed to get hair transposed as you come back. Well then don't colour yourself. You just come back and say, I'm uh no, I'm not Jake. I'm Jake's nephew. Yeah. Drake. Yeah. Hello. I am uh Rex Luthor. Hi, I'm Bronny Jr.
SPEAKER_04No, the guy's on the team too.
SPEAKER_02But I mean, my closing statement here is it's just that, you know, there's not a ton to say about the book. It's straightforward, but it's just it's great. It's exactly what it should be. You get to see the characters interact, you get to see all the fun matchups of their lives interact. They save the day, uh, they beat their villains. It's a fun time. It's nice that it's oversized. The Superman, Spider-Man, crossovers are back, baby. We love them. We love when characters cross over. We love when it's not really about growth or real storytelling, it's just mashing things together.
SPEAKER_04I was wondering if we think that's good if they would do something with growth because they're such different characters. Superman is, and that's how they play them. Obviously, that's that's how they have to play them, but Superman is so infallible in his story. He never really gets caught in a trap. He never guesses anything wrong, he just kind of knows where to go to find Lex and knows how to beat him. Yeah. Uh and you would have thought that maybe he'd get humbled at some point and Spider-Man gets to step up, yeah, and Lex walks away having learned a lesson, but nothing of the sort ever happens. Like I I think my my biggest complaint about this book is once it gets going, it's very much a Superman versus Lex story. And Spider-Man is there for personality, and Dark Only.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that so that's one thing. Um, and I'll also bring up a similar thing when we talk about Robocop Terminator, but like one thing you really want out of a crossover is like, hey, are all of the essential elements of the characters intact? And I will say for the Superman Spider-Man crossover, I'd say 85 to 90% of what you'd want is in there. You get uh you get Clark Kent, you get Lois Lane, Peter Parker, Mary Jane, you see J. Jonah Jameson, um, you get Lex Luthor, uh, but then the points where I'd be like, oh, that's a little weird is you brought up like Perry White's not their boss, it's Morgan Edge, and they're not newspaper people at the moment, they're newscasters, so like that's like a little bit of an oh right. That's a that's kind of a change. And then in terms of villains, like Lex Luthor is Superman's Grandest Villain, but we talk about who's Spider-Man's grandest villain. I think Doc Ock is second place to Green Goblin, but you can't use Green Goblin because Green Goblin's dead.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you know, you get it's it's such a there's such minor things to kind of grade down, but you're like, ah man, is is the because Lex is such a tough character to compete with. It's like, oh, does Norman Osborne hold his own against Lex a little better than Doc Ock does? I'd be inclined to say yes, but like you can't retcon for a crossover.
SPEAKER_04That's such an interesting way to that they were thinking about continuity at the time because they're like Spider-Man and Superman are in the same world even though they never have been and they ostensibly almost never will be again. Yes. But also this world needs to look as it does now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. Yeah, you can't fudge too much stuff. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04They could have just brought back Perry, they could have just said, here's the green goblin. Just done.
SPEAKER_02I think people have kind of gotten used to that now, where if you pick up a crossover comic, you I think the assumption is that you're seeing an evergreen version of the characters, you know, like kind of a generalized status quo.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that's the kind of beauty of like JLA Avengers is through kind of more of the kind of metafiction plot mach machinations that you're talking about, like they get you everything. You leave going like you saw every version of each team, every villain, every possible thing you could want. But again, they did a lot of uh crazy intense and really well done combo plotting stuff to make that happen.
SPEAKER_04I did a reread of that, yeah, just in case we touched on it. And it was like a ton of fun. It felt rules. It felt the story lived up to I suppose the magnitude of the story lived up to the weight of what it represented in this crossover. It was crazy, it felt like a capital C crisis.
SPEAKER_02Yes. To uh kind of tee up uh Robocop v Terminator a little bit. I think that this crossover at the end of the day, as cool as it is and as big of a deal as it was at the time, it does feel like action figures, right? Yeah, it's playing with action figures a bit. It's just kind of like let's see these big poster-esque moments of these characters interacting. Whereas I think Robocop v Terminator, what's really cool and special about that book is it takes elements from both of these franchises or movies or stories, and it crafts a it crafts a new version of that story that kind of says something interesting. Like they use it to like make art.
SPEAKER_04Funny thing, this is technically an intercompany crossover episode, but these are like these are the same publisher. Yeah. This is a very much you know what we've gotten to do, what Jake and I have gotten to do with TMNT Godzilla. Um, we aren't really dealing with publishers' butting heads in the same way that you might have with DC and Marvel. Um, but it's yeah, like Jake said, it's a really fun story that kind of retells the mythology of both franchises. Um we open up in the far future, there's you know, Terminator stuff going on, it is a wasteland, uh, and they send a human back to the present because as we find out, Alex Murphy, um, what's his name, right? Alex Murphy, yeah. Alex Murphy, I don't know why I blanked on that. Um was responsible, it was kind of the impetus for Skynet gaining consciousness. At some point uh in our timeline, he connects to Skynet, Skynet, it becomes something else and you know takes over the world. Uh, and so they go back not to save John Connor, but to kill Robocop. Uh from there we meet Robocop doing RoboCop things. He stops the person who came back for him, but the Terminator has also sent back a couple Terminators or a Terminator who you know is blown up, they win. What's fun about this book is they go back and forth a lot. The Terminators get like multiple chances to send back bad guys.
SPEAKER_00Like it just kind of keeps happening. Well, you talk about no budget, like it's like you send as many Terminators as you get.
SPEAKER_04They just keep throwing Terminators into the past. Eventually, Robocop and this person who came back uh in time, uh, they become friends. Uh he's tempted by Skynet, refuses temptation the temptation, uh, is taken anyway against his will, plugged into Skynet. The future happens as you know as we see it. Terminators win. Um, but Robocop, you know, sliver of his human consciousness, of his Alex Murphy consciousness, uh, was saved in Skynet's programming, and for years and years it's floating around. Takes over a little, uh, creates a factory of Robocops and helps the humans win. Uh, then everyone's happy. The future's fixed. In a way that it never is in any Terminator film.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's just like a beautiful utopia. Yeah. They just save the day.
SPEAKER_04It was awesome, like Frank just ending the story. I'm pulling up uh pulling up this utopia for the viewers watching the video because it is so funny. Our main character wakes up in a beautiful field, uh wearing like future utopian garments. She looks like she's in like Atlantis before the city, so Robocop is one of my all-time favorite movies.
SPEAKER_00Same here. Uh, when I first moved to LA, the first time I ever went to Amoeba Records, I bought um the Criterion edition of RoboCop because I'm such a huge fan. So getting to reread this crossover was a delight. And like reading it today with all my comic book history knowledge, like Frank Miller and Walt Simonson, two of the best cartoonists of their generations, teaming up to do this comic, it's unreal, dude. It's unreal.
SPEAKER_04And the way that Simonson approaches the page is so much fun, and it's it's such a contrast. So bombastic, like IMAX images in Superman Spider-Man. Yeah. Whereas he was cramming the page with action.
SPEAKER_00He um he there's some there's some pages he really nails quite, quite tremendously that are like kind of burned into my head now. And um something about this book that I think is is also fun is like RoboCop is a character who is created because of comic books. Like the screenwriter of the original Robocop film, whose name escapes me at the moment, I believe his name is Ed Newmeyer. He was inspired by like what he called the anxiety-ridden superheroes of the 80s, like Alan Moore Swamp thing, Frank Miller's Daredevil, some uh some of the like darker, more alcoholic-driven Iron Man stories. He was like, Oh, like if we're gonna make like a modern-day superhero, he has to be like kind of anxious and sad, and then he creates Robocop. And it's like, you know, because we get direct superhero movies today, like sometimes I am like, wow, what if people got to make movies that were inspired by comics instead of directly adapting them? Like, that's how we got RoboCop. And similarly, like, you know, famously Jim Cameron loved Spider-Man. He almost made Spider-Man with Leonardo DiCaprio for for I believe Canon films, but it didn't happen. But he creates Terminator, one of the all-time great pop culture characters. I have to imagine some like cool sci-fi comics of his youth found his way into uh Terminator. So while these are both movie icons, they certainly have the feeling of comic book characters in certain ways, and it's not crazy to see them in this format.
SPEAKER_04And the world feels so comic booky to you. I mean both of them really, but Robocop more so because it's it's so much more similar to ours. Uh but the people are crazy. In the first scene, uh, when our hero do you remember her name? I'm totally blanking eye. Thank you. When Flo comes back to the present, she shows up in the middle of a busy intersection and a cab driver gets mad at her and pulls out a gun, and then everyone look walking around is like, oh, there's a fight going on, and they all pull out guns.
SPEAKER_00That's the most Robocop bit in the whole thing. In terms of like satire and funny, and I will say, like, I wish this book had more of those moments, more of that humor.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. That was really that that was an awesome part of it. I think what's what's so great about that crossover is it like really attacks like the conflicting essences of the books, right? It is a one is a world where robots and humans are fighting each other, and the other is a protagonist that is half human, half robot. It is a brilliant thing to mix together. It's not just for the point of like, look at these characters meeting. It is an interesting story to watch and read through as this man reckons with the robotic and the human side of him, right? And it it feels so like prescient with just the ideas of like how much we're giving way to robots each and every day, whether it's the phones in our pocket or AI, and looking at this future of what that creates, this Terminator apocalypse, and him being like, Well, I need to kill myself to stop this. Uh anything, I this cannot go on this way. This cannot continue that way. I think it's a fun thing too, because it kind of feels similar now that we're in this robot apocalypse. I feel like at least like I'm re-examining any sort of Android character in any property that's a fiction. It's like, yeah, we should kill that guy again. C3PO should be murdered.
SPEAKER_04To continue the aside, though, it is it's funny to me that we continue to make these AI stories and the AI is the good guy. I think that's that's really fascinating. It's like at what point, if ever, will that take a turn? As it's just AI in the court of public opinion is such a controversial uh topic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because it's technically a media tie-in, one thing though that does feel kind of apparent about the comic is like the things they could not include. Like it is it is called Terminator, but like none of the Terminators look like our former governor, you know. Uh also, like, in terms of RoboCop characters, like Robocop, like there's so many great side characters and supporting characters, none of those people are present in the comic, you know. Where like unlike Superman Spider-Man, where it's like, we don't have to pay actors' likenesses, we can just bring in whoever we want. Like, Robocop is clear, like you can use uh this person's likeness and nobody else's likeness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So while the scope is like intense and you get a ton of terminated robots, like you get more than you would in the movie, you're you're you're missing a couple elements from the movies that I really like. Dig and similarly, like, you know, there's there's no Sarah Connor, no John Connor in this in this book, correct? I'm not sure. Yeah, that's correct.
SPEAKER_04If I may, I think that's the strength of the project. I think if Frank had to find a way to cram in Sarah and John, yeah, uh, and Kyle even somehow. I think what what works about this is it is the Robocop franchise interacting with the concept of the Terminator franchise. Like they get to reduce the Terminator down to a premise, and for the most part, Robocop as well. They they show his wife being sad that he's dead, and they show you know him going to sleep at the at the office and it being maintained, but for the most part, you're right, right. For the most part, it's it's just Robocop on the job, and we never really see even his uh his partner from the movie. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that I think you're kind of I I think I fall somewhere in the middle of you guys here, where like I think that is why this comic does work so well. Uh I uh imagining a world where we have to make more room for like a John Connor type feels a little bit tough, but it also is why this just feels like a Robocop comic, right? Like it's very much a RoboCop comic. So if you brought in John Connor, if you brought in Arnold, you know, then it would actually feel like these two movies meeting each other. It does not feel that way. There is no real Terminator without Arnold. It just doesn't.
SPEAKER_04It's fun because um, you know, it is I I guess a recap for anyone who doesn't know Robocop. Um RoboCop's a movie, Alex Murphy is a cop who's murdered very grotesquely at the beginning. It's hilarious, it's awesome.
SPEAKER_00You gotta check it out in the best possible way. It's sick.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Rena, you have to check it out. Yeah. And they take him and they turn him into a robot. They're like, here's this dead cop, maybe we can make him a robot cop. And they do it, and it works out really well. And they're really good at his job.
SPEAKER_00And to James' point, they try to suppress his memory so he only remembers being Robocop, but like his humanity wins through. And in the second issue of this crossover, um, Frank and Walt visualize it in a really beautiful way, where like he's he goes into his mind and like you see him as Alex Murphy, like flying through this techno landscape. And again, like that's something that works really wonderful in comics that like and it's very beautiful and very poetic. Like maybe at the time in the late 80s, early 90s would not have looked as good in the movie, you would have been like, this was weird. It was a weird thing I'm watching right now. But like in comics, it works brilliantly again because they're taking inspiration from those 80s anxiety-ridden comics with those kind of dreamscapes that like Robocop owes so much of his origin to. Um I pitched I pitched a scene uh for Jake, so I'm gonna pitch a scene for this. One thing I would have really loved, I know it could have happened, but one of the best things about the first Robocop is the villain, uh, played by Kurtwood Smith, the dad from that 70s show. He plays Clarence Bodaker, one of the greatest movie villains of all time. And like, I would have loved if they could have brought him back, and at first you're like, oh man, he's back from the dead, and bear like, no, he's a Terminator. And you see his skin peeling off, and you just let him call all his crazy lines from the first movie. Like, I actually I probably shouldn't have said that. I know it's it's completely out of vogue, which is okay, because I respect people, um, that would have been cool, you know. Again, the all these things in retrospect, but like I, as a huge Robocop fan, like I had such a great time reading this crossover, and you had to talk about the art, like man, Walt Simonson, one of the greatest cartoonists alive, one of the greatest cartoonists of that era, and just like I think about all the beautiful organic things he drew in like Thor and how beautiful that stuff is, and to draw like mechanical stuff just as beautifully and it doesn't feel lifeless, is amazing. Like, one thing I often have problems with in like you know, comics in a lot of machines or certain Iron Man comics, is like it becomes literally like two action figures just running against each other and it has no life. There's so much like life and energy and dynamism between the Robocop and Terminator fights that I think today it would just look like a bunch of like lens flare and like metal like hitting each other, where like in this it looks spectacular, and the colors do shift halfway through the miniseries. I do prefer the colors in the first two issues, the second two issues. No offense to the colors of issues three and four, but those first two issues in particular, I think some of the most beautiful work Walt's ever done.
SPEAKER_04Going back to to the posing, I think there's some of these splashes, and this is a bad example because it's not a splash, but this panel here where Robocomp is like flying, yeah, and Walt is allowing him more like mobility than he would have had in the film. Looking at the way his yeah, the way his knee bends, like that is that's the thing that makes it work. Like that's the bit almost.
SPEAKER_00Something we we rarely talk about in the show, also, is I will say, uh, your comic and your comic, each lettered by two of the greatest letters in the history of comics. Gaspar Saladino basically sent the template for modern lettering, and then John Workman, uh, who I believe letters everything Walt does, just like you know, most letterers are kind of they would say they're very inspired by both of those guys. So we uh we often talk about art and colors and writing on the show, but I won't say we see lettering too. We see you guys and we respect you. And though those two guys rule in both these comics look driven from from top to bottom, production-wise. Yeah. So do you guys have any closing arguments before I start like loudly thinking about which one I want to pick?
SPEAKER_04Well, this being uh an episode about intercompany crossovers, I did reach out to another company just to in the spirit of the thing. So I have something I'd like to read. Uh this is from Jamie S. Rich, publisher at Ignition Press. Editor. Editor in Chief. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I uh former Batman editor at DC Comics. Yeah, former my boss at IDW.
SPEAKER_00He's worked at Dark Horse, he helped found Oni Press. Jamie is like the the crossover man of comics. Wow. Yeah. The crossover man.
SPEAKER_04And I just gave him a promotion at Ignition just.
SPEAKER_00Yes, he also let it know. A modern crossover people love the Batman Elmer Fudd that DC did a couple years ago by Lee. Did you say he let it? He edited it at Excuse me. Excuse me, Jake. I'm very sorry. It's late in the day.
SPEAKER_04That's what that is one I considered. I I've I've said this to you many times, Dave, but uh Lee Weeks is my favorite Batman artist of the 21st century. I think he's brilliant. I think that issue is brilliant.
SPEAKER_00Well, what did Jamie give us?
SPEAKER_04So, Jamie, this is this is in Jamie's words. For me, the best crossover is to take not just a genuine look at how the two characters who were meeting might interact, but find some kind of thematic common ground. The original Batman Grendel recognized the two sides of the same archetype of the overly accomplished and driven protagonist and pitted them against each other. Hunter Rose versus Batman was not the good evil paradigm of Joker and Batman. It's really the same person making the opposite choice, to use their skills and resources for selfish Hunter Rose, or selfless Batman reasons. Add on top of that, Matt Wagner bringing an uncompromising approach with his intricate storytelling, and you get a crossover with an artistic point of view rather than just something done for commercial gain. Arguably he blew that up all that up with a sequel years later, flipping it into a blockbuster, this time Grendel Prime, who is more of a blunt instrument than a precise tool. If the first one was Brains, Batman Grendel 2 was Braun, and the storytelling was more open and widescreen as a result, the colors too. Uh you went from the more muted and meticulous Joe Matt coloring to the almost garish Gregory Wright coloring. Plus, Matt actually managed to make that crossover canon with the Grendel Mythos rather than an aside rather than a side hustle by building to the story in his own comics for the year prior. Full disclosure, I was an assistant editor on the lead in stories and the sequel itself. My love of the original dates back to my fan days. The actual crossover I worked on that I'd call my favorite is Madman Superman Hullabaloo.
SPEAKER_00Oh, incredible.
SPEAKER_04Which is the last and I don't think I would have chosen it, but it is one that I I regretfully forgot to review in preparing for this episode. But I I love that book so much. Much like Matt Wagner, Mike Alred brought his whole personality to the table and made a story that only he could make. And likewise, he sneakily made sure that when Madman came back to his own reality, he took a little piece of Superman with him. For the more traditional superhero crossovers, though, the uncanny X-Men and the New Teen Titans from 1982 is easily the goat in all caps. If for nothing else, then the Walt Simonson and Terry Austin art.
SPEAKER_00That's so that's the issue I probably would have picked if I was one of the competitors in this episode. You have two of the greatest team books of all time going on at the same time. They're both books about young adult characters. Like it was perfect. The timing was perfect, the books were perfect, the characters aligned amazingly. Walt also drew the heck out of that one. Chris Claremont is writing it. I I do wish there had been a uh version that Marv Wolfman wrote, and maybe maybe George would have drawn it. So we got a uh we got two of them instead of one, but like that crossover is really incredible. And uh in two minutes, Jamie Rich beat us in what we've been trying to do here for almost the last hour.
SPEAKER_04I know he put it very succinctly. I really like um his comments about because that is a fun thing about madman is forever after he's he's re referencing like yeah, oh yeah, this thing that I can do now after I interacted with that alien that we hung out with that one time.
SPEAKER_00There's also such a sweetness between Madman and Superman, and to his great points about Batman and Grendel as well. They're such uh uh opposite sides of the same coin. And he gave us the okay to read that on the air. Mm-hmm. Okay, what a sweet man. Um Well that definitely helps me inform what I was what I was gonna say. But yeah, guys, closing uh closing thoughts, closing arguments.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think my closing argument is that I, as someone who's not a huge fan of crossovers, I haven't read a ton of them. Um I picked this mostly because of its standing in comics history, and I believe Robocop versus Terminator would be the better crossover story is my closing argument. Really? Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Just rolling over heck.
SPEAKER_02I wouldn't call it rolling over.
SPEAKER_04Just telling me the water's fine, that I can hop in as well. Um RoboCop versus Terminator, I think it does something that, you know, we've said this already, but it it does something that the best crossovers do, which is to kind of negotiate these two mythos, see the ways in which they fit together best, and it tells a whole new story with um, gives us a beginning, middle, end that I think is a lot of fun. It's entirely removed from both franchises, largely the Terminator one. Um I as much as I love Superman vs. Spider-Man, I mean when it when we got this facsimile in Jake and I were just gushing over the art, uh, but I think it kind of stops there. I think and I think you know, what one thing I'll say in Jamie's write-up, he put it so well that uh Batman Grendel was not a commercial effort, and that was the strength of it. I think the strength of Superman uh Spider-Man is that it is a commercial effort. They they've nailed so effectively the things that make these characters both so successful. Um, Jake, as you mentioned, like the cover alone, both characters are doing what they do. That is such a Superman pose, that is such a Spider-Man pose. Uh, and that was what made it work. It was so authentic because of that. Because it you know, essentially they're keeping these characters on brand. Um but ultimately Robocop versus Terminator, I think, is a more modern effort that has aged much better. Um it has Frank Miller at the height of his powers, just kind of doing what Frank Miller does.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um and Walt Simonson at the height of his powers, so I don't think he's ever really slowed down. Yeah. Um if if you haven't read some of his most recent stuff, Ragnarok, I highly uh encourage you to do so. It's brilliant. Um but yeah, this is just two creators at the best of their abilities, uh, telling a story in which Robocop is tempted by his potential future. And yeah, it's it's cool. It's great. This is tough.
SPEAKER_00It's especially tough because Jake waved the white flag.
SPEAKER_04But that doesn't mean you have to. That doesn't mean you have to. That doesn't mean your decision is made. Is he gonna make your decision for you?
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_04I'm making your decision for you. No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00He already picks what you eat for breakfast. So here's here's what I'll say. And I think that you actually said it very astutely. I I don't know that you meant it as like kind of a haymaker, but it really did change things for me, which is like Robocop Terminator does feel more like a Robocop comic than a Terminator comic.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_00Where Superman Spider-Man will not as I think in terms of what is the better comic book, yes, it's Robocop versus Terminator. However, that's not the premise of the episode. The premise of the episode is what is the better inner company crossover? And because of how much these guys had to like work to like give it 50-50, make sure each character was represented well, and kind of set the tone for every crossover that came after it. I have to give the belt to Superman the Amazing Spider-Man.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Dave, I think that, you know, I think towards the end of this, I lost a lot of steam, and I think hearing those words. I think I think like I'm just constantly wrestling with what a crossover is and what the point of it is. And like as someone who's worked on some crossovers that I really like, I think that Faro Pay and Tim Seeley did an excellent job with Godzilla versus TMNT, which is a crossover comic that Nick and I worked on together. It's a fantastic book. It does the thing where it merges their mythos together in a fun way. Um, it's also we get these chances to like turn the turtles into kaiju, and we play with these little similarities of them all being mutants, and and we have all this fun with it. But like at the end of the day, I think that you know, growing up in like the post-Watchman world, the post-vertigo world, you can have this desire of comics as literature, comics tell a story, comics have these like deeper meanings to them. And I think sometimes crossovers can have this bad rap of like, oh, well, it's just silly, but also that's an awesome thing for comics to be comics just being silly and just being fun and and giving you something that other mediums don't give you. Yeah, I think it's important. So I think this crossover gave me a change of heart. Um, I came in on top. I now realize I'm the protagonist of this issue, and the thing that I have is and I think what I've come to learn is that there is value in having fun. There's value in playing with action figures, there's value in having an excellent writer and an excellent artist show you two comic book icons meeting up, you know?
SPEAKER_00I agree, and I think crossovers can be fun. One of my favorite comics I ever edited was a crossover, Batman's Shadow by Steve Orlando, Scott Snyder, Robin. But yeah, crossovers can be great, crossovers can be fun, and like comics are allowed to be anything. They're allowed to be literature, they're allowed to be summer blockbusters, they're allowed to be something you read once and never read again. They're they're allowed to be something to change your life forever. Uh and Jake, I've given you the victory, which has changed my life forever. Nick, I think you did a tremendous job, and I love the comic you brought, and I would read it again the heart of you.
SPEAKER_04If you hate me, you think I'm scum. No, I don't.
SPEAKER_03Hey, thanks for listening. If you liked hearing our thoughts on other comics, you should check out our comics, available at any local comic book store or online at idwpublishing.com.