Frontline Voices: The Aftermath

In this episode of Frontline Voices: The Aftermath, host Matt Latham sits back down with Chief Gene Landers for a conversation most in the fire service avoid—but everyone needs to hear.
This isn’t surface-level talk. This is the uncomfortable side of the job.
From the reality of response times and what they truly mean for communities, to the challenges of leadership under pressure, to the egos that can either build or break a department—nothing is off limits. Chief Landers brings it straight, cutting through tradition, pride, and politics to address the issues that quietly impact departments every single day.
If you’ve ever questioned the way things are done…
If you’ve ever seen problems no one wants to acknowledge…
Or if you’re ready for honest conversations that push the fire service forward—
This episode is for you.
Raw. Unfiltered. Necessary.
Make sure to follow and check out more episodes of Frontline Voices as we continue bringing real conversations to the forefront.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Frontline Voice the Aftermath.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Frontline Voices the Aftermath. We invited Chief Gene Landers back. Um, our last interview. We discussed some things that were maybe um somewhat uncomfortable. So we wanted to touch back on those, talk about some other uncomfortable things that are the truths of the fire service. Um if you're not able to watch it now, it is being recorded, so it will be put on YouTube and all the other platforms at a later time. So, Gene, welcome back to the show. Or I guess a re reinvention of the show. Yeah, the episode. The episode. All right, so digging right back into this, and I do want to tell everybody that's at home if you have any questions or anything, please unmute and let us know, and we'll do our best to answer that for you. Um, we want it to be kind of interactive, and it we're going off script, and we're gonna have some main points of topic that we're gonna talk about. And after that, like I said, your input is is just as important as this conversation. So, one of the first big topics that was of questionable nature was you had talked about response times and how there's no excuse to be going past the second, third, third page that you to better serve your community, you need to do the best you can to get out the door. So if you would elaborate on that, I'd I'd greatly appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Yeah, it's a good question. It's very uncomfortable for a lot of people. Um in the volunteer service, we all have all kinds of things going on, and like I told you in the last episode, when we become volunteer firefighters, I think we should be asking, at least the administration should be asking the firefighters what are your limitations, what are your expectations, uh, what can we do for you, and what might not we see out of you on a certain time frame? That way we have a clear understanding. Hey, Matt's not around from four o'clock to 10 o'clock at night, example, but we don't have those conversations. So to get a better understanding, uh, we have to start there. Get in touch with our people. Um, and if that's not working, or let's say we do come up with a resolution and we get everybody's schedule figured out, then we come up with a platform to decide what's our weak point. So for our agency, daytime was our weak point for many years. So, not just me, the group of command staff sat down and we had conversations about reality. This ain't working. It's fun to be a firefighter, but it shouldn't be fun only at night. It should be the whole thing, the whole day, uh, 24-7. And we understand that there's restrictions in everybody's lives. I'm getting it. We understand there's restrictions with everybody's life, but that's got to be a two-way street, and we can't expect someone else to always respond. If we're sitting down and well, just the other day, someone was mowing their yard, they got a call. I gotta finish mowing my yard, that's a new concept for me, and so if the volunteer staffing is becoming compromised with quick responses and volume, then we have to start having conversations to entertain another solution.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

So, how do you get everybody on that mindset of yeah, I still gotta have a yard in mode? Yeah, how do you get that that transition of this is priority? And and it's easy to say, you know, if it were you, you'd want somebody to come right. But those regular day-to-day responsibilities, sometimes that's hard to change that mindset. So, as a command staff, how did you guys get that into your department? Of, hey, I understand you've got a life, yeah, but this very well could be their life.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

We're still working on that. We're not perfect, we don't have it dialed in, but we're working with the dial. Um, the combination has not been found. Conversations are being had in a more frequent manner to just get a better understanding of each other. A couple of my command staff, they have full-time fire jobs. I don't know their schedule, but they don't tell me that they're out of town. But I have it in my head that they're probably not gonna be around. But if they leave town to go on vacation, they send a text, they send a message. It's just to just have the respect that we might need another department for a Medron for someone that's pulseless. FDIC's coming. I spent two weeks making sure that we have that staffing, minimal staffing, right? So we have to as far as as far as our agency, we do have uncomfortable conversations. That's it's just the reality of it. But it's becoming a new comfortable with a little bit of respect. A lot of people were threatened or they felt like we were impeding into their personal space, asking, hey, you in town tonight? I'd like to take my wife out for dinner. We should have, we shouldn't have to, but if we don't, we don't have a response. So let's just have that conversation for the people that are calling for us later on while I'm enjoying my ribeye and and my family time.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

And I'm sure that you know the response from the community. I mean, not that they know how many pages has gone off or anything like that, but when they see that you're hustling and stuff like that, I'm sure the support increases significantly from the community members when they see that you make the emergencies a priority.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

I was never thanked for a quick response until two years ago. Two two and a two and a half years ago. Wow, you guys were here quick. Well, it was seven to three. Uh give us uh 4 a.m. call it a little bit of a struggle, and don't be fooled. We're still looking down the road to be sure that we can cover that a little bit more frequently. I don't know how that looks. Uh, we all know that we have financial restriction, we've got to manage what we have, we can't spend it all, and we'll get to talking about that here in a little bit, I think. Yes. Um, but the people here here's what I told uh firehouse tribune last week. If you're not able to respond on calls, you're not able to take care of your firemen, you got nothing. Uh, and so being fair to everybody, we all have personal lives, we all have things going just like each other. So we have to collaborate and come up with some kind of process, even your smallest volunteer department running 100 calls a year, 90 calls a year, all the way up to the one that's running 700, and they're still volunteer strong, but they're still having that midnight issue. Or it's taking them three pages to get out the door. Three pages 15 years ago, that was pretty courteous, right? Yes, and I think for probably the last 50 years, it was pretty courteous.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

I like that being able to have that uncomfortable conversation, being able to get through to everybody, get everybody on the same team to understand that what is the priorities of this fire station? What is what is the priorities of this organization that we represent? I like I like the idea of not just clamming up and having those conversations because they're very important, especially as the world is changing. I mean, this job is always evolving and and rotating, and and it's it's it's always changing. So that's incredibly important.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

You know, I I will add, I've scared some people away because of having those conversations. What do I need to tell him for? But you don't have to tell me. I'm sorry. Don't tell me, but you're leaving me in a position that now I have to. Well, I don't know. Is the fire chief supposed to go out of his way and miss family time? You can't preach it to your administration that you need mental health, family time, you time, your space, and shove it on everybody else. That's very true. And I and I will be honest with you, and I'll be honest with the people that are watching. I've had those conversations with people, and they can't take it, and that's fine. I I don't actually feel sorry. It's uh unfortunately, uh, like I said, 150 people, 150 people have quit the fire service in my lifetime locally.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

They're gonna keep quitting. Yeah, I I tell our guys this year, you know, look at the rosters, go back three, five years. How many people are the same? A handful, maybe it's continuously a revolving door. One thing I do want to talk about that you just brought up was the mental health thing because earlier last week you had posted something in regards to you preach it, but then you you you come down. I'm not quoting you on that, then you come down on the people that have issues. And and I see one of the comments that came up underneath there was there was a gentleman that said, you know, he was dealing with some mental health issues and and was brave enough to bring it to light within his firehouse, and they they chased him out.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

I don't want to, I don't know the story, right? I I can only imagine, and we all know what that can do to our minds. But if you're at an organization, first off, you have to be able to speak, you have to be able to go in, be willing to have that conversation. I'm having a tough time, and I'll get into something here just after this. Um but when they come to you, you have to recognize it. I'm not gonna say his name, but back in 2016 or 17, it was after 2017. Um isn't it weird we put our kids first timestamp? Yeah, uh but it was it was it was post 2017. Uh very close constituent of mine today was sitting on my front porch and he left to go to a call, and it was probably the worst call he'll ever experience in his life. And he came back. Now, this is nine years ago, but he came back and I played it off like he was just bummed, he was messed up, he should have never seen that, never witnessed it, never experienced it. Somehow it was allowed that he was exposed to the situation, and I just let it off, and it took me probably a week to realize what I had done because I'm comfortable with what we do and it doesn't bother me. I made it acceptable for him to be bothered, and that was not right, and that happens a lot uh in the world we live in today because we try to deny everyone else's problems because of our own, it's too much, it's stacking. Um, but like I said, it's not worth gathering in a funeral parlor when we could start gathering long before that. I can't speak on the comment that was left, but what I will say is there was a problem 30 years ago, and I was just talking to uh Chief Ashby last night about an individual in some of my comments, and she's like, This individual was experiencing this long time ago, and they didn't do anything about me, they didn't do anything at the time, later on they were able to help. But mental health doesn't mean that you hate yourself, it's the balance of everything, and so we have to get into a more of a positive mindset instead of waiting for somebody to have a flat tire to stop and help them.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah, that's very true. And you know, for me personally, you know, that's that's why we've we've pushed you know, peer support and stuff like that. So many members here have got uh certification and different things because it's becoming a real issue. It's not that you know, just bury it down deep and chase it with a bottle like it used to be. You know, it's something that needs to be just like any other injury, right? All right, so we're gonna close that section and go into our next topic that has been of some discussion lately. In our last interview, you had mentioned that everyone on your department has leather helmets. And I thought you did a very good job on explaining why you came to that determination, and maybe that's the fact of people not watching the full episode and not getting the answer, just getting that, oh, he's just being bright, braggy, right? Yeah, so if you want to reiterate the reasoning behind that, maybe it'll it'll clarify some things up because I I felt that your explanation on why Orange Township carries leather helmets was ex was, I mean, backed with great information. So if if you would please elaborate on that that situation. So I'll be very specific.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

It's the Phoenix TL2 leather helmets. Uh currently, well, it's 2026. I probably ought to check my facts, but it is the one of the lightest helmets in the market. And the uh zero center of gravity is phenomenal. And in 2016, uh during an event, I had a Ben Franklin 2 helmet, a very heavy helmet sits high, doesn't have a lot of adjustments. And at an incident, and later on, uh visiting the physician, his professional recommendation was to never put one of those helmets on again. And he wasn't trying to sell me anything, he wasn't trying to get me to take medication, he was just straight up telling me, man to man, try to find something different if you ever do it again. And so I ran into a group of salty firemen that love the N5As, N6As, Sam Houstons, they commend them. They're heavy, they're awesome helmets, but they're heavy. So then I was turned into the Phoenix TL2, and that that's what I was told zero center of gravity, lightest helmet in the market, and you can bend it however you want. Um so I just threw the conversation out there, I didn't know if that's the right decision, but in 2021 or yeah, I think it was 2021, I bought my own because I wasn't getting anywhere prior. So I bought my own, I bought it from Granite State Fire Helmets, and I felt so much secured and comfortable without the stress on my neck. And uh if I can take your health or any other person's health and extend it the best we can with something that's maybe not the cheapest, it's a win-win. Right. Uh sometimes uh we all should know that the doctor ain't cheap. Neither's the fire equipment. Right. And I will say that I I'm not ever going to brag that the guys have TL2s, but I will be happy that they don't have the problems that I've experienced with those floppy, I don't know what they are anymore, 10-tens, is that what they call them? Yeah, great helmets for head protection, but uh hard hats also, you know, that's that's what a fire helmet is is an enhanced hard hat on steroids. And then we start putting these three-foot door wedges on and 10-foot flashlights, and now we start defeating the purpose of head protection, and now we have neck issues. Uh, never been a fan of wrapping stuff on your helmet. I guess it is what you what you want to do, but then stop paying for all these pockets on your coats and your pants. Um, but that's my opinion, and it doesn't stand that way as as God's word, it's not biblical. But like I told you in the earlier show, if you're not willing to change your mind, you're not willing to change the world.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Correct, yes. I don't mean to be repetitive. No, absolutely, but the the obviously we have to be because you know it was misconstrued in a way that made it seem, like I said, braggadocious. And and like you said before, you know, if a twelve hundred dollar helmet saves a thirty thousand dollar neck surgery bill, where's where's the fault in that?

SPEAKER_03 19:11

It's kind of like a uh it's a little bit of an insurance policy on the folks. Really, I'm yes, they can get hurt just as just as the same as they can with a plastic um, but the zero center of gravity has me convinced, and I think others as well, that they're just best fitting. They're not trending, they're not bad, they're just more comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Absolutely. Thank you for clarifying that because like I said, it was it was one of those things that I think was misconstrued, it was taken in the wrong way, and maybe maybe not the whole conversation was heard, but like I said, that it makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

And I understand that they've been arguing about leather helmets for the last hundred years.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Right, right. Uh, this next topic, I want to I want to commend you on this because it actually I seen it work in in my own life. You had talked about talking to people that you normally wouldn't talk to. And I'll just give a brief story. A couple weekends ago, I was up here, my kid needed an air in a tire, so we're doing that, and some younger gentlemen come walking down the street, and they they look like they came from a rap video. Not gonna lie, not not the typical person you would think would be interested in the fire station. Guy yells out, hey, you know, what do you got to do to be here? Well, at that point in time, I didn't know how old he was, and I say, Well, you know, you gotta be at least 16 to be a junior, you know, 18 to to start, you know, working the process and stuff like well, I'm 18. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just put your application in. They turn the corner and they walk away. And it repeated in my head what you had said. So, you know, we loaded up the air compressor and and put everything away and jump in the truck. And my daughter's like, Dad, where are you going? I said, We gotta find these guys. They're somewhere well, they're somewhere close. Matt's about to get in trouble. So, you know, I we found them and I said, Hey, hey, hey, if you guys are really serious, you know, the chief is there from eight to five. Come on in, get an application. If you want to tour the place, you know, we'd be we'd love to have you in there. And the whole conversation changed. Now, did they come in and do an application? I haven't heard, but you gave them an upper church thinking about that conversation may have opened the door for somebody that maybe needed that. So, like I said, I thank you for that because that that's huge. So, if you want to if you want to talk some more about some instances where it's paid dividends, you are. The it you know it's it's it's up for you.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Well, the dividends are totally up to the people willing to give the return. You can propose these ideas to people, and if they don't take it, what do you do? It's like people that buy scratch offs, they continue to buy them, they continue to buy them, and they might win one time or another. And someday they might hit the big jackpot. I have 12 people walk in, but I can tell you in a year or two, 12 people still won't be here, and you have to continue to have those conversations because the revolving door in the fire service, like I said, 150 people in the last 25 years. Um, we get comfortable inside our firehouse, garage doors are closed, we go out to dinner, we don't talk to anybody about it because we're trying to get away from it, right? Right, yeah. Um, and then someone says thank you for your service, and it becomes a joke on the training grounds or at the around the campfire with uh our brothers and sisters, but we need to take that opportunity when someone thanks you for your service and tell them I'm I appreciate you notified or noticing that. Um, I've had conversations with people that I wouldn't normally have conversations with, and nothing happens. One of two things they retain it, don't act on it, or they run away. Or you screw with their mind and they're boil on it for a week before they come back and they have a conversation with it. And that I love that. I love that. I would rather have somebody be confused and come back for more. Um we talked about our newest proby. I mean, when I asked her to be on the department, if she was interested, she blew us off. Right. I had to ask her again, and then we continue that conversation. Um, I think we just have to be less judgmental and more transparent in our conversations and field the people we talk to, but do it with respect because someday that individual's life may change and they might have a new idea or a new avenue they want to head down. And to be that person to introduce somebody into a new opportunity is great.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's incredibly important, especially you know, with the whole you know, recruitment, retention taught topic. You gotta you gotta expand the pool, you gotta be looking elsewhere because or you're gonna have to find staffing, or you're gonna have to find staffing, and we all know how incredibly difficult that can be at times. Can be back to the uncomfortable question or conversations, right? All right, so we'll put that one to bed. One of the things that's coming up a lot lately, and I'm sure you've faced it, you know, when you're in the firehouse, they're brothers and sisters, and we're all friends and stuff like that. How do we deal with leadership and popularity? Because I think a lot of people are having a struggle with that. You know, I want to be the good guy, but I want to do my job, but I don't want to upset anybody, but I want it's it's playing that juggling act, right? So I guess how do you handle your officers and your cabinet of people that you trust to make decisions to be able to set that aside and not try to be win a popularity contest. Because sometimes you have to be the thorn.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

The uh number one goal is what is our purpose, and if we focus on that, all of us, we stay on track, and we've lost people that don't stay on track, they don't catch on, they don't understand, they bicker, they're the 10 percenters. Um, and we just we're not interested in something that's gonna derail us. Plain and simple, and I will say that not just the officers, the firemen as well, the firefighters as well. Um, they do a really good job of keeping the water from boiling. They call it out how it is, they're polite about it, sometimes sarcastic, but we understand it. And it took a little bit to get people to understand we're not the ones attacking them, our accountability is attacking you, and as far as a popularity contest, as many know, I could care less about popularity. I've been in this long enough that uh popularity doesn't save lives. So when it comes to making decisions, especially that affect everybody else, as long as you focus on the purpose, it doesn't matter how popular you are. I see.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Yeah, it it's it's a it's a difficult road to travel trying to make sure everything's lined up, but I'll touch on something here.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Something we experienced. Uh look off to the side here. Is it something when did we experience the phone call that you had where this individual is just pretty sure I was sitting beside you? Was it just this fall, or it was just first this winter? It was, yeah. We had to get unfortunately, we had to let an individual go. And they had it in their head that this was some premeditated, chaotic setup mess. No, you're not in the same purpose, and if you're not gonna tell yourself anything different, we're gonna remind you, and the reaction was just absolutely chaotic. Unfortunately, wait a minute, fortunately, I didn't have to deal with it. Um, and those are those uh uncomfortable conversations. You have to have uncomfortable conversations to make them comfortable later on the road down the road. Has to be done, and you got to do it with respect. You can be an asshole, you can be tough, but you have to be respectful and love your people. And sometimes when dad grabbed that belt or that one by six, whatever it was, he probably was doing it out of love, even though it may not have felt like it at the time.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

It was yeah, yeah. Uh the talk about that, because you you had mentioned it, and I know that prior to going live, we had discussed the situation, and you had talked about unfortunately letting somebody go. If you'd like to elaborate on that, I think everybody would be happy to hear that.

SPEAKER_03 29:59

Well, I won't talk about the specific situation because I think it's a little too soon. But an individual was let go from their volunteer job for something that we're not, I guess the agency isn't even allowing it to be eliminated. We chose volunteer status, we're keeping it. We don't want to talk about it about moving it, making it accommodation or part-time or paid on call. But then we're gonna ridicule and criticize the way our volunteers act, behave, perform when they're already behind the ball. They've got to get up, get their shoes on, drive to the station, get their gear on, get in the vehicle, and make all that make sense safely. And then we sit there and we scrutinize them because they made a mistake, and then we want to know why the volunteer fire service is fading away. Because we're too busy pulling grenades and tossing them and hoping that somebody grabs onto the idea that they screwed up. It's a shame.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Keeping everything in a box when it doesn't work in the box anymore. Right, right. Yeah, that's oh and it and it is tough. It is, you know, like did I cover that well? You did, you did a very good job. I mean, yes, if you're if you're in a situation where you don't want to talk about staffing and you don't want to, you know, and you are relying on on those volunteers and you want them to be there as fast as possible, but then you're gonna crack down on things that that come come with that. I mean, there's there's some give and take when it comes to this situation, and if you're not willing to do that, then how are you supposed to ever keep anybody? It's uh a vicious cycle.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

That it is actually unnecessary vicious cycle.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Talking about that, and every fire station has this, it's got its internal struggles. You're dealing with egos, you're dealing with the 10 percenters. You're you know, there's there's some laziness, there might be some command failures. There may be some issues with following command from the body. If you'd like to touch on that, I think that's a very interesting topic.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Well, first of all, everyone has an ego. I cannot stand the comments about, oh, he thinks he's got a big, or no, sorry, he's got a big ego, bigger than his head. Well, duh. Like, isn't that normal for people to be proud and egotistical about themselves? Why do we stare at the mirror when we're brushing our teeth? Why do we stare at the mirror when we comb our hair? We've got an ego, but not everybody has pride at the end of the day. Uh, so I'm not sure what your question is.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

How do you how do you deal with that? How do you deal with the egos in the firehouse? How do you deal with the stuff that it's it's universal, it's everywhere. I mean, obviously, especially if you're not busy at the time and people are sitting around, you start having issues. Yeah, we do, don't we?

SPEAKER_03 33:41

Um, I I never criticize anybody for ego. Let them. If they're if they're happy, I'm happy for them. Uh, just don't put my people in any type of risk because you're trying to reinvent an airplane uh and fly through this job. It's uh it has a a place to where we follow what we've always done and look at doing something we've never done, and we have to do that safely. But watching a YouTube video and then praying to it five minutes later, that's the ego I can't stand. Um, and that's a false ego, and there's a lot of that, but when people are proud of themselves, I'm proud of them. It's the biggest dopamine dumper, is for someone to be proud of themselves, and we have to empower that. Now, I'm not saying we gotta give them a plaque for every time they wash their gear.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

We should probably encourage it, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Uh, I just got criticized at the academy the other day. I had some insulation on my sleeve. Matter of fact, I was humbled and reminded that I forgot to do my part, and I didn't think he was an asshole for telling me. I love the reminder, but you tell that to some arrogant individual, and uh they're not studying the cancer ratio, they're not studying the mental health, they're not focusing on them. Well, they are, but only their wins, and not worried about their losses 20 years down the road, uh, when they're sitting in front of the doctor with the diagnosis. But egotistical people, that's normal. Uh, pride, that's not usually out there. I think a lot of folks in the fire service today they do have pride, and they do have ego, but the ones that don't have the pride, you can't teach it, you can't teach compassion. The only thing you can hope for is they watch the ones with the passion and the ego and the compassion and pride, and hopefully they duplicate it, and that's why we have to do a better job of not being assholes. We have to smile, we have to promote, we have to share, and hopefully, you know, if you don't sweep a firehouse floor, it starts to look like the worst thing in the world, and every once in a while just take care of it, and that's what I mean by every everybody in the fire service. We got to take care of each other. Um, sometimes we got to put our own needs to the side and hopefully push it off onto somebody else. Some of that pride and I guess increase their ego. Make them feel good about themselves. I want them to be happy at two o'clock in the morning when it's time to pull ceilings. I don't need a man at the world. Right. Got my mustache, you know. I just it's not that big of a deal. It's a job. You know, we go to work every day. Some of us. And we don't get excited and all worked up to drive in and work at a factory or work in an office. The ones that get worked up in the fire service it's because they want to be there. The ones that don't get worked up, they've been there. And it's okay to have both, but a lot of that collides. Oh, he's not in a hurry. Oh, he's actually really calm. You're the one that's losing your marbles, right? Yeah. Um, the only thing I can relate that to is one of my first fires I ever responded driving the apparatus, and my right foot's doing this. And do you know the sensation? Oh, yeah. Felt like a poofball. And uh, I checked myself real quick. I actually called a friend and said, was this normal? He said, Oh yeah, yeah, it's normal. You're good. You're gonna make it if nobody destroys you because you love what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I think that's the biggest thing right there. Getting destroyed by your your peers. Yeah, they're not your peers. Your associates.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

Acquaintances, that's all acquaintances. I think there's a phrase I I use, it's called an acquaintanceship because they're not a friend and they're not an associate, right? You know, I talked on uh Station Talk about not everybody cares about your personal life in the fire service, and you have to realize who they are quick, and it's okay, it's fine, but don't tell everybody because they got their own problems, so they're not gonna be there for you when you are experiencing those experiencing those problems, and uh that's normal. They're not rude, just not interesting. Does anybody have any questions? Yeah, any questions? Do we only have like one viewer now?

SPEAKER_02 39:25

We have no questions.

SPEAKER_07 39:31

I don't know if I have a question, but I do have a comment.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_07 39:36

Um 40 years ago I was a volunteer fireman, and I respect you guys greatly. And uh what's the difference between forty years ago and today? Do you think in your mind with firemen?

SPEAKER_01 39:51

What do you say? What's the difference between 40 years ago and today when it comes to firemen?

SPEAKER_07 39:57

The people I gotta say go ahead. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

Yeah, no, so 911 still happens, people still die, but the people that are responding are changing just as how do I say this? You know how the calls get worse as time goes on, materials made out of cheaper, cheaper items, things are cut short. Well, that's what we're doing to ourselves. 40 years ago, seven fire trucks in a firehouse out the door, no problem, no mutual aid, one station takes care of it. People changed. Fire truck stack, and mutual aid started. That's my opinion on 40 years ago and today.

SPEAKER_07 40:54

Yeah, I can see the difference. Um, I've got a uh I gotta boast about something if you don't mind. Joe is my brother, he's my younger brother. And uh I look up to him. He's a really good guy, he's come a long way. Um, I think he remembers when he seen me take off and turn on my blue light and take off to the fire. He was pretty young at the time. And uh I'm very proud of him, and I'm glad he's with you guys. Joe Who? Campbell.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

I just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

I just kidding. I gotcha. Joe's sitting with us, um, he's been great. We've had some differences and some challenges, and I've learned a lot from Joe and people like Joe. And Joe's not any different than anybody else. The only difference is I have to experience him. Like he's got to experience me. And uh, if I don't take the time to get to know Joe, Joe's not gonna take the time to get to know me. And we have to do a better job of that in the fire service. We don't need to know what color shoes he's wearing. It doesn't what's his favorite car, but it's nice to know that uh the people we work with are doing all right.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

So hopefully that answers answers that.

SPEAKER_07 42:32

Um does, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Okay, thank you. Anybody else? I guess we'll move on then. That's fine. All right, so you know we we've talked about You're doing a good job, by the way. We've talked about, you know, the ins and outs of building people up and not tearing them down and all this stuff. It's incredibly important. And it sounds great on paper. How do we actually change the culture? Because the culture is from what my experience is, I mean, you you've got those ups and downs just about everywhere. And yes, we can say these are the things that we need to do. But how do we actually implement it and make the change?

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Yeah, well, we we're not going to uh we're not gonna do that quickly. We're animals, we're in our own world, and eventually we have to migrate into something different, or our survival is limited. And first off, we have to stop judging people, like I said in the first show, until we work beside them. That's where we get tied up. I don't know if it's jealousy. I don't know what it is. I've been around it for so long. I see it as stupidity. We're just we're just not treating people right. And we haven't been treating people right for a long time. And I think it's starting to wear. Um, I think we're winning though. I think when I say we, we the people, we the people. Um, I think we're winning. Gene's running for president. I am not. I am not. I find I cancel the show. Uh we really need to get back to our roots. All this excitement, all the motivation that we have, the the byproduct of all that is helping people. So stop with the negativeness because you're ruining the byproduct. It has to happen. You you have to my goal for people is to go out and find somebody they can't stand and have a conversation with them. And take a minute to listen. You don't have to agree. You get to walk away. Right, yes. You get to go to your own bed. Unless it's my wife, then right, yeah. No. But we've got to do a better job of stop building walls in this job.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

One thing that I want to talk to you about. I'm gonna turn this back down a little bit. Um obviously you've been in in the command position for a while, and I'm sure that you've made decisions that have positively and negative negatively affected people. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with knowing that what I did, and I'm not gonna ask you for details on specific things, but how do you deal with knowing that, man, if I could have just done this a little bit different, this outcome could have been, could have been better, could have been worse, whatever. Because I'm sure that's something that weighs on your mind from time to time, if not regularly. How do you work through that?

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Remember when I told you that I let my firefighters and officers balance me? They keep me in check. That's uh that's how I do it. Every fire, every call, we have a conversation after bed. And I think there's plenty of times where I've said I've made mistakes. And if you don't admit it to your people, they're gonna do the same thing by hiding it the reality. They're gonna pretend that it doesn't exist. They're mistakes. I I can go on a hundred thousand judgmental mistakes that people have had towards me. I don't need them to because I've got 200,000. I I don't need it. Um I'm very well aware. One thing I never did know is that my delivery of my message could be on a Monday night on the fire grounds, was not perceived the best way, and so I've really kind of honed that down. I'm not interested in saying, Will you pretty please do this? But we have conversations afterwards. I used to not have conversations, I used to just go on. And so we have to be willing to admit that we're wrong, and we have to be willing to change our minds. I the only answer to that is to just ask questions.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

Yeah, because you know, I mean that's the thing. How how the the personal cost to your own well-being being in a command structure. I'm sure it it it and a lot of people, especially newer officers that are starting to make those decisions, that's one of the things that that really gets at them is making that call and owning that call. And I think that that's one of the deterrents of a of a lot of people and a lot of shortcomings is being able to handle that.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

If you're gonna accept an officer's leadership role, you have to acknowledge that you will be wrong before you make your first decision. And uh we ran into that before. I've asked one question and I got screamed and yelled at. All I did was ask a question. Genuinely wanted to know. And their demons inside them released the spire. I don't know that it was necessary. You can't be scared to make a decision. It has to be made. But you have to be willing to to receive input rather than just this is the way it's gonna be. It cannot be that way. Everybody needs to be explained. There needs to be some whys. Why not whys? Um, yes. We have to do a better job of explaining it to people. I've always heard this. I don't have to explain nothing to them. Yeah, you do. You have to. And if they ask, you definitely have to.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

I like that. Everything goes back to having conversations and being open to change. That's an incredible thing, and and uh even around here, and I I've mentioned this before to you, you know, that's one of the things that I think has benefited us here is our own chief is open to change, open to having conversations about new techniques and new tools and new, you know, let's try this out. I'm not saying it's gonna work out, but let's at least see where it goes. And I think the way that you bring up these topics of hey, you've got to be open, you've got to be able to take in input from other people and not just rule under an iron fist, this is how it was, this is how it's gonna be. I think that's incredibly powerful and incredibly important.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

So you also have to be willing to take compliments when someone tells you that you're doing a great job, or you what's Ruka say? Um crushed it. Uh you have to be willing to take those. They're not insults. I think people get wrapped up in, well, they're just being a smart ass. No I know it's not rocket science, but you're doing rocket man shit.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Yeah. I agree with that. That's yeah, it's hard for people to take compliments. Even when they're well earned, it's hard, it's hard for people to take compliments.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

Do you uh you want to really get into that? Let's go raw, man. Give me a 10-minute break. I'm gonna let Joe Campbell get on here and talk about that. Alright. Joe, take a seat, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Now you get one of these because you're officially on the show.

SPEAKER_06 52:23

All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

So to touch on what Chief Landers had to say, I'm a huge advocate when it comes to compassion and empathy in the fire service. I believe that is uh essential. So I guess to kind of bring it in a perspective, you have these new volunteers joining. Okay, they don't know if they're doing something right or wrong, and a lot of times it's just indifferent. I'm the type that's going to walk up to them when they're feeling frustrated onto the side, say, hey, you're doing okay, it's all right, it comes in time. Um, and I have actually experienced some other firefighters that's no longer with us get offended by the compliments. Um, I've introduced uh one gentleman as this guy's a great firefighter. He was offended by that. He had an issue with my personality, but really at the end of the day, that's his issue, you know. Um, there's nothing wrong with getting back to the firehouse and saying, Good job, you'll get there, you know, and I'm huge on offering my free time to have them come in, I'll help them, you know. You don't have to scream, you don't have to have these big meetings with individuals, they just simply need a little encouragement, you know. Um, and and which we'll we'll kind of get in on uh my thoughts on empathy and compassion that's under fire at the fire department, you know. But at the end of the day, how do you raise your kids? You know, you uh what what when you're potty trained potty training them and they do real good, what do you do? Good job. They may have an accident, try it again, right? Nothing wrong with it. It doesn't make me a suck up to get somewhere with my chief or deputy chief, you know, or any of my other officers. It's about building people up, building firefighters, solid firefighters. When we're on a med run, you know, what do we do? We give compassion and empathy toward that patient. What's wrong with doing it with our brothers and sisters?

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Absolutely. Yeah, one of the conversations we just had recently was um we had an individual that that had achieved something that they'd been working very, very hard on, and you know, congratulating them on that. And of course they get bashful about it. And I said, wouldn't that be something if everything that we did in life you got as much encouragement as when you learn to walk?

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Absolutely, and there's nothing wrong with doing some people, just need to swallow that pride a little bit, and and just realize, hey, it's okay, it's okay to pat somebody on the back, you know, even if they didn't do a hundred percent, if they gave 80 80, and you pat them on the back and tell them good job, but this is what we need to work on calmly and positively feedback to them, you know, they're probably gonna come back and give you that 110 110.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

So how do you deal with the negative criticism of of this aspect? You're so you're so um riven towards it. I am so when you get that kickback, how do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_02 56:42

How do you usually those type of personalities probably are not going to make it long in the buyer service because I believe personally that you have to have compassion and empathy? If not, what are you doing? Because this is a job that we are supposed to care for people, so why let it stop on scene? You know, let it continue on, and especially to your people in the buyer service.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

Yeah, yes, absolutely. That's a very yes important perspective to have, and and I hope that it takes off. Yes, because it's yeah, and and that that goes towards you know, that having those awkward conversations where people may not be open to taking the praises, that may save them on that that burnout aspect of it just being recognized. Yes, hey, you know what, this hard work it is paying off. People are are noticing that once they can get past that bashfulness, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

Because and like you just said, most people that come in, they're shy, they're bashful, they're uncertain. Um, like Chief Wanders uh has brought up, you know, it took me three times coming in out before I made that decision. This is what I want to do and do, because I commit, and when I commit, I commit hard. And um, his guidance has been phenomenal, you know. Um, again, people are probably going to view that as kissing up to my chief, but it's not, I tell him all the time, whether it's in private or in public. And there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Establishing a mentor is not exactly uh a bad thing. No, and I I make sure that I tell people that all the time, you know, hey, you you may not know it, but I respect you and I look at you as a mentor. Yep, and you know, and hopefully they they take it as a positive because everybody has a unique characteristic that you can model yourself after, absolutely, and to make that difference in somebody's life by simply saying, good job, and they come back and they're a rock star the next time on scene, and then you tell them again, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 59:17

This is what I see in you, and I believe in you. That's okay. It doesn't make me doesn't make me weak, you know, it doesn't make that individual weak. Everybody needs praise.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Well, Joe, I'm sure I can go on and on and on, but I kind of want to save that for your own your own episode because there's a lot of questions that are popping up in my head now that I really would like to feed on. Yeah, but um I appreciate you having having the guts to be able to interact on this because it is, you know, obviously Chief sees it's a strong point for you. Yeah, yeah, and and I think that's that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

Yeah, and Chief Landers has been very supportive of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:06

Well, Chief, we're sitting at about an hour. I guess this could be the start of the closing. Is there anything that you would like to um by all means? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Thanks for having me here. Thank you. Let me talk a little bit about it, and we'll look forward to catching up with you. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Yeah. But you know, I was just like I was saying, if there's anything else that you would like to talk on and discuss as we're coming to a close here, like I said, we have been about an hour into this, and so like I said, the floor is yours.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:45

Well, the biggest thing is does anybody have any questions? I I don't want them to be embarrassed by asking, but that's what we're here for. I don't even know how many people are watching.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:57

Neither.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

Maybe everybody's gone because they're tired of hearing from us.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:08

I'm definitely not doing the headphones next time. Right. Yeah, well, I still gotta figure that whole thing out more, it sounds like. No, thanks for having me. Um we just have to communicate with each other better. That's what we have to do. And again, those conversations that we uh don't usually have with people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

We gotta have to start having them. Well, I want to thank you for being open to come back and talk about some of the things that you know maybe raise some eyebrows in the last conversation and being able to take it a step further and talk about some more uncomfortable things, or maybe what would be considered more of a taboo subject. You know, um it takes guts. And I thank you for having the courage to talk about the things that not a lot of people are hoping to talk about. So I like I said, I want to thank you for that. I thank you for coming back on the show. Apparently, it wasn't terrible the first time that you were able to come back. So, like I said, I I really appreciate you for that. And go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:21

I think if anybody would like to get on here and spread positive meaning, they should get a hold of Matt Latham at front line voices and do it. He's busy, he asks good questions, but he's got a little time to put more of your words into the toolboxes of your heads. Just something to think about. It's not the right way or the wrong way, it's just a perspective, and uh, we have to take a little bit of time, focus on that, and just stop being shitty to people. Stop being shitty to people.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

That's it. That's it. So thanks again, yes, sir. Thank you. And to all of you out there, I thank you for for joining us. Um, it's new endeavors, but thank you once again.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

This has been Frontline Voices the Aftermath, brought to you by your host, Allah. I just want to take a moment. Thank you for listening, for supporting these conversations, and for being willing to step into the side of the fire service that doesn't always get talked about. If this episode made you see, when you perspective anyway, do me a favor.