The Future of Rifle Competitions (New Format Breakdown)

What happens when you remove the restrictions…
 and let shooters compete with real-world setups?
In this episode, we break down a brand new rifle match format tested in Arbuckle, California — designed to push shooters closer to real hunting scenarios while opening the door for more competitors, gear setups, and strategies.
This isn’t just another match recap.
 It’s a look at where shooting competitions are headed.
We cover:

• The “range & engage” format and how it works
• Why removing restrictions creates better shooters
• New stage designs (multiple glassing positions, vital zone targets, hit/miss scoring)
• The handicap system balancing weight + power factor
• How this format could influence future gear, rifles, and competition rules
• Why simplicity, adaptability, and real-world application matter more than ever
If you shoot PRS, hunt, or just want to understand how competition is evolving — this is one to watch.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Stand by.

unknown 0:02

Shoot it. Stand by.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

All right. Welcome back to a PRS podcast. And this week is a follow-up to an event we did just this last weekend, Pursuit. Uh first test match there in Arbuckle, California. Match director Dan Berticini with us that was at the match, and uh a couple other distinguished guests, Rusty Omer and Scott Satterley, who um we were all actually squatted together, got the shoot together, um, had uh had an amazing time there. Welcome, guys.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Thanks. It was it was a great time.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Excellent. Excellent. Well, Dan, let's let's start with you. Um what did we do last weekend? Why were we there? What's going on? Really generic question.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah. Uh, you know, we we ran a rifle match and um everybody had fun. So yeah, no one died. Most of the RLs made it through. Um, no, I mean, we, you know, this was something that we've been talking about for the last year, and you know, talking to Scott and talking to Rusty and talking to you, Ken, and and obviously, you know, my uh match partner, Brandon, and a lot of people. Um, we just wanted to do something a little bit different. Um, we wanted to to do something outside of the box and think outside the box and really have just run an outlaw match and have no restrictions. And it's just kind of turned into what it is now with, you know, uh potential series now to a real real life series. So um, yeah, we I I I essentially ran a match how I normally run it, but just with a different set of rules and and um just an open playbook. And and I think uh I think it turned out very well. Um, I was obviously very stressed about it. I think I get like that because I care a lot um and I want to see things go a certain way. And um I want everybody to have a good time. I want, you know, there's just a lot of things, so yeah, I'm just overly stressed because I just want things to go go well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

So the format was somewhat tested. I mean, a lot of these things, a lot of the stuff that we did last weekend was um, you know, uh it has been done in other formats before, NRL Hunter specifically, right? Where where some of the ideas came from. But um, I wanna I guess I wanna uh give a little introduction to Scott and your history with these types of matches. Um Scott, I guess let's let's go way back. Now that you know we know where we did last weekend, let's go way back um to the first um well, it might not even have been the first, right? I mean, it was kind of the birth of this style of uh of competition, but um the match you ran at Cameo, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah. Um so you know, I've been shooting these field matches for a long time that they're just uh they're not super scalable. So I shot RTC matches going all the way back to the Karstetter match, which I think they just finished up their last one this year, and then with the night force match, kind of a field style match, and it kind of introduced that to one scoring. Um and of course, steel safari. So I mean I'd I borrowed a lot of ideas from matches that I'd shot in the past, and I was just trying to figure out how to get it so that it was scalable so you could have, you know, up to 200, 250 people shooting all at the same time. And and then uh, you know, kind of incentivizing trying to get ROs in, um, allowing them to shoot the course of fire was um you know at the time it was and it still is, it's kind a little controversial, but I mean that's how you get that's how you get good ROs. Um so yeah, we ran uh this the bit the same basic rules as what the NRL Hunter series is now. I mean, it's evolved and and this you know series is gonna evolve away from that first match, which absolutely 100% should. Um but it was just kind of trying to solve the scalability um aspect of it. Yeah um to where, you know, it made sense as a series and it made sense as a match director, and it made sense, you know, for the competitors um to where you know that wasn't just a one one off one time a year um type event to where you know they can actually, you know, kind of see how they stacked up against everybody else in the nation, which is you know, kind of the original uh thought process behind the PRS. Yep. And you know, it I and you know, being able to take and go to we'll say North Carolina, say I want to go to Coleman's Creek. And you know, I know kind of what to expect on the format. It's not gonna be, you know, completely you know, foreign, you know, where you know they have just you know stuff that you're not used to. So you you're kind of going in knowing what to expect, which is I think beneficial for you know folks that travel. And you know, I know a lot of uh people out east would like to come out west and shoot and you know, just to see you know, it's so big out here that you know you're not it's um you know, the the amount of space we have is kind of a a luxury. But I mean that that kind of is a I'm kind of rambling, but that's kind of one world where you know, I mean 2000 I don't know, I think 2010 I shot a fine range and engage match, and it's still kind of a hot deal. That first mammoth sniper challenge is still I mean, I think there's threads out there with 2,000 responses and stuff like that. You know, it so I love that format. I like that style of shooting. I really like I mean I've like the PRS where you're kind of more on a flat range and everything's given to you the the challenges presented um on those type of matches or um you know smaller targets, more complex stages, and you can you can do that. Um it's just finding a balance to where you know stage complexity and you know finding targets doesn't get out of hand to where you know you have um you know half the field doesn't get a shot off for you know four or five stages. That's that's that's the toughest part about this whole thing. And I think Dan did an amazing job on adding stage complexity, um multiple uh you know uh glassing positions and multiple, you know, and targets would reveal themselves. And it was really intuitive to where, you know, you're gonna shoot the targets left to right, you know, shoot one and two, and then you're gonna move to the next position, shoot three and one. And it was intuitive that you know you were just gonna kind of look left of one for that target. And um so I I really liked uh what Dan did with the format. I think um it adds quite a bit of flavor um to the match for the shooter and for the match director. It it allows the match director to utilize his space to the most, you know, instead of having one glassing positions and four targets and four or something like that. You can you can really um highlight, you know, the the uniqueness of that arble R buckle property, um, you know, where you had shooting lanes. It was just it was just a neat, well thought out match.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Um let's take a brief break in the show to give a shout out to one of our partners, Eberly Stock, the official pack of the Precision Rifle Series. And PRS, chaos is the enemy, the upranger is how you keep it all in check. Every round, every tool, exactly where it belongs. Go check them out, Eberlystock.com. But let's take a second um and understand that um you know most of our audience that's probably gonna listen to this. Um well, I I I hate to say uh I hate to even say most because the last time that Dan and I talked about this type of match, um the the podcast was highly watched, and it wasn't I guarantee it wasn't just PR shooters. Um I'm sure there's NRL Hunter competitors and maybe RTC and other team stuff. But um and maybe Rusty, you're you're the one of the most versed competitors in this space. Talk to us a little bit about like what what does this competition look like, right? Like what can a shooter expect? Like, you know, for me, you know, I I had had a little bit of practice um here in Wisconsin with uh with Reed Griffin. He took me to where they host their match and kind of ran me through some of the things. And you know, so I had a little bit of taste going in. I kind of knew what to expect, but I don't, you know, pretend most of our audience doesn't know. What what is sort of the format at a match? Like what would what could you typically, you know, in very general circumstances expect when you're gonna when you walk up to a stage, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Well, okay, so first of all, let me go back in history a little bit and and say that uh, you know, I shot still safari before Scott ever had his first match, and this is kind of, you know, like he says, this is kind of expanded on that, grown from that, changed a little bit from that. Um, and then in I think it was 2020, Scott, when you had your first match before there was any series, um, 2019 or 2020, something like that. And you held that first match, and man, we had a we had a great turnout. I don't know if there was 150, 200, there was a ton of people at Cameo. And man, after that match, I came up to you and I said, Scott, you have to make a series out of this. This is way too much fun to not continue. And and that happened, right? And uh anyway, it uh it's been great. And you know, this is kind of this series is kind of an exp an expansion of that, right? I mean, we've we really for people who have shot those, it uh what we've done is changed the format a lot, which gives the the match directors a lot of flexibility in how they want to run their matches, what kind of format they want to use, and like Scott said, uh depending on their terrain, they need to do things differently or works better if they do things differently. And there's so many different variations that we can have on on what we've had and even what uh from what Dan had. But uh so anyway, to uh to to answer your question, you said what what do you expect? Well, it's uh again, it's a fine rage and engage. You've got if you're an individual, you've got four minutes. If you're a team, which is two people, you've got six minutes to go from totally blind to being on the clock, going up to the position where you glass from, there is a point. There is uh usually a point, it's a it's a nail or a pin or something that this is where you glass from. You can see the targets from this position. And uh then there is a left and right limit, so it gives you a sector that you're gonna find those targets in that sector. So there's a left limit to right limit, and you want to glass in that sector to find the targets. You know from before you start, there's a uh there's a placard that shows you, hey, what you're looking for is two bears in this sector, and it tells you how to engage them. You may engage a there's a million different ways you can engage them. You can engage them left to right, near to far, whatever, two different glassing points. Um, and that will be explained on the placard before your time starts, right? So you go up there knowing what to expect. You you find your you know that your first bear that you're gonna engage is on the left and or whatever the the placard said, and the next one's on the right, so you go ahead and engage them. And so what one idea that we had was to have a couple of different glassing points. And uh, you know, and I talked about maybe even have three glassing points. If you had one target that you could see from the per first position, you find that, you engage it, you get it to the second position, you find that target that you couldn't see from the first position, you arrange that and engage it, then you go to the third position. There's just so many different variations that you could do. Um, and you know, we wanted to test some of those theories, and we did test some of those those uh arrangements in this in this match, and they worked out really well. Um, but uh anyway, so you've got four minutes to do that as an individual. Um for a team, you've got six minutes, and typically the the one shooter, the first shooter will completely finish their shooting of that entire stage before the second shooter does. But again, you can have variations on that depending on the terrain, how you want to set up the stage. So that's basically it.

SPEAKER_04 13:41

Yeah, this is the first range and engage match that I've shot, and uh, I'll be honest, I chickened out on Friday and was like, I don't want to do this on my own. Um, I I and I'm glad I didn't. Um I'm glad I didn't try it on my own because I I would have it probably would have taken me five stages before I would have found a rhythm, you know, and and knew what to do. Um instead, I I shot it with uh Jason Alvis and you know, and he he basically uh almost literally held my hand through the first couple stages, you know, and we got the kinks worked out and then then we're in rhythm, right? And it was like, okay, I know what we're doing here. Um I was surprised how fast six minutes went. I think we timed out one of our first two stages we we shot. Um, you know, just you know, if you take two minutes to find targets, then you have about 30 seconds to get set up. You have about 90 seconds to engage the targets, hopefully making a first-round impact on all of them. Um and then, you know, you got to get out of the way and the other guy gets in there. But um a lot of fun, a lot of fun. Like I uh I can think back to some of the hunts that I've done where I've I've uh done as a team or you know with somebody else, and it it was on par with with the type of energy and excitement that those had, you know. Um it just, you know, it's it's it's a different it's a different experience than than PRS for sure. Um, but a lot of fun. A lot of fun. Yeah. Um Dan, let's talk. What what what uh and we're gonna send out a survey to all the shooters, um but w what worked better than you thought, or or what like what were some of the hits from from your match? Like what were some of the things you did that were like this is it?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, and I'll just go over a couple of the the new designs and everything, or what we had. I mean, so the first one, you know, what we already mentioned is the multiple glassing position, you know, that like I said, Rusty and I talked about. Um and I thought it was a cool concept. As soon as he said that, I'm like, oh, that's sick. Like I I like that. Um I did three of those. Um one was right to left, one was left to right, and then one was uh the you were in a position behind, and then the second position was up front. So a little bit of combination, and they were kind of just like um separator stages because they added a separate time crunch layer, a different stressor layer. Um, I felt like the first position, like at least the first target, if not the second, was pretty, pretty easy to find. And then, you know, so that way newer shooters get their their hits and gets to work through the stage, but then when you move to the second, now you're having to work more. You maybe you ran out of time. Like I said, so it challenges both newer shooters and and you know, more experienced shooters. Um and I and I loved it. Uh that there were there was a couple little tweaks.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

Scott, I want to ask you, you you shot this as a team with Ryan McLean, and both of you guys are experienced shooters in in this format. Um the the two position stage, I think it was like six or seven, that you actually had to move forward. So uh did that present you guys any challenges working as a team to uh be in a back position, move forward, and then have to go back, you know, for the the second person had to start his engagement back and then move forward. Did that were you guys challenged doing that?

SPEAKER_01 17:13

Yeah, yeah. We ended up we ended up timing out. I only got uh two shots off. Um and that would be one of those things where, you know, given certain terrain, you could uh volley fire, para fire, um, you know, would um, you know, given that given the option to do that, and I understand um with the range constraints that Dan had that, you know, we had to we because some of the places you just didn't have enough space to lay two people down and for them to actually see the target. So, you know, totally, totally understand that. I think um uh but I you know again, I love the team format and um you know, as um we started doing that at the night force match, and then of course at the um the first match I did, I didn't do that, and I think that was unwise. I think I should have uh at the cameo match, I should have, you know, kind of prioritized that that team because every time I've gone hunting alone, I've regretted it, you know. So yeah, I'm pulling a deer out by myself and it's you know, it's just it it adds a whole level of pain that you know not that many people hunt alone, but it is tough to um it's tough to get two people on the same weekend, you know, their hunting partners to go out and and shoot a match, you know, travel and shoot a match. So I think um, you know, having the individual aspect of the sport is uh and and it is a whole nother stress level to do it by yourself. I think I'm glad I shot Dan's match with with Ryan because then we just we kind of split up our sectors once we found the first, you know, we had glassing sectors more than you know, fire fan sectors. So um, you know, we just had a plan going in that once we found that first target, um, if everything was um to the right of that, uh, you know, I would look high and Ryan would look low. Or, you know, if it was a pretty wide fire fan, like a near-to-far, far to near, something like that. Once once we found that first target, I would look left and Ryan would look right. So we we kind of split um we that way we're not looking at the same dirt at the same time and not knowing it, right? So um anyway, um yeah, I and then um there was another stage. I don't know if you guys struggled with it. I don't know we did. Um it was um I think it was a PRS style stage where it was uh eight shots. Oh, yeah, far far to near. That was super cool.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

We can let's uh we can we can get into that after like we'll talk about that when we bring up that. Dan doesn't want to talk about knowing yet. No, no, no, yeah, we get no.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

I mean, yeah. No, I'm but I was gonna if I if I were to make a list of like what worked well for Dan, what you know, what didn't, or whatever. This this would be at the top of the worked well for Dan list. But I I don't want to yeah, Dan, uh I'll let you continue. We'll we'll um we're gonna rope we're gonna come back to that.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, one other element that was cool to see when I saw people shooting it with the with the multiple glassing position stage, and this is why I wanted, especially for individuals, to to do it in sequences because it forced you to get to the second position, go back on glass, find target, then transition back to the rifle, which is very like what you do in a lot of hunting scenarios. Like either you're hunting multiple animals, coyotes, or whatever the case may be. Sometimes your rifle, you know, the the shot happens or not, then you have to get back on glass. So it it just it's a gear management type of uh of an of a you know situation, and it's gonna make us better at shooters. Um, and that's why like really like it's it just breaks us from the current mindset of like, oh, I this is the this is the the routine, but in it in real life, either hunting, whatever the situation you're in, it doesn't always happen like that. So so you it's creating better shooters, better hunters, better, better that. Um the next and and so the next stage we'll talk about, we'll we'll go to the I wanted to throw at least the one point per impact, hit or miss target stage. Um, I wanted to do more. I was gonna do two or three, maybe one with the squirrels, but then we also had normas there, and I didn't want certain targets getting hit, you know, too too many times. So, but it was cool to see. It was just fun to throw it in there, um, to where it was just one shot, you know, four targets, one position, um, you know, one shot hit or miss out and back. And it, and it also like forced some of these. maybe bigger calibers that you might have to shoot more rounds than you expect. So yeah. And you guys can say how you liked it or you didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

When um the I went hunting with my daughter last year and we had to do exactly what those the the multiple glassing positions did. We we got up we got on our mule deer, we got a range and he did he decided to go somewhere else so we had to reposition. And it wasn't like 10 yards. You know we had to reposition you know probably 75 yards to be able to get a shot off. And so and we ended up having going down the back of a slope to not to skyline ourselves and then come back up and then search for him again. You know and then she got her shot off. But no I mean it is wildly applicable to um to a hunting situation you know because they're it it they're not going to just stand there for you you know I mean they're they're gonna decide to move and you know you may take a shot and wound it and then you have to reposition and find it again. You know I mean it's it's wildly applicable.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah that kind of brought it yeah yeah no I was gonna say as soon as Rusty mentioned it I was just like fuck that's a that's a such an amazing idea this is absolutely happening and and then like when I talked to Brandon about it he was absolutely on board like we it was just one of those things so there was just like we're making this happen. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Yeah you know talking about your uh your four target where you had to go near to far one one shot each and then far near when I was thinking about when you told me about that I'm like okay that's that's not going to be too bad that's not gonna I'm not gonna time out on that I had less than a second left when I shot my last shot on that like that that was that took all the time. It's just and you know if you after a while you realize that when there are four targets out there you have to find four targets you have to write the dope down for four targets you have to mark four targets their locations that just takes a lot of time and then having to take eight shots you know I said it takes longer to miss than to hit when you're in PRS because you have to yeah but it taking eight shots is that's different right I mean unless you miss everything.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

But uh yeah it takes a long time to take eight shots too especially when it's a different target a different dope for each shot yeah and it was I but I thought it was really cool simple enough yeah yeah yeah try to keep it simple enough to where it was like kind of a modified troop line obviously not a gimme but because if I made it complex it would have just been way too much but I I think it was a good example it was a good balance.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

So yeah no and I think if you're gonna do something like that you need to you need to make them simple to find just because it takes a long time to do all that.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

For sure absolutely that was that was my favorite stage of the whole match you know and um what what I found interesting and obviously like I I wore a PRS hat for the most of the match like I didn't I didn't you know I felt like well I'm a PRS guy kind of trying this different format whatever. And I think we shot that day two does that sound right guys yeah yeah you guys shot a day two yeah we shot yeah we shot a day two and like towards the end of day one and the um yeah in the first half of day two like I wasn't I wasn't missing a lot. You know my partner Jason was giving me great um great ranges so I had good do you know we were double verifying everything. My gun was shooting really well the wind was fairly stable so like and and the targets are you know wider animal targets so a little bit more forgiving. You know there was a lot of stages in a row where I only took four shots you know and and you know both Jason and I had good wing calls and all this. And then we got it which is fun um but it was kind of like man like I it's cool when you hit the targets and you finish the stage you're like I only took four shots and I was able to get through that like that feels good. But then when we came to this stage and it was eight shots and you know hit or miss move on near to far far to near um man I was a couple shots in and I'm like let's go this is like you know it's hammer find the next one shoot find the next one shoot you know and it was uh and it was cool because um like Rusty you shot a few ahead of us and and um you know you came out and you're like whoa almost timed out you know I'm like okay like we do have to run at a better you know at more of a pace and then uh talking to Ryan uh Ryan and Scott shooting together you guys were a couple people ahead of us too and and Ryan's like you know talking about like getting halfway done you're three or four shots in and like oh I still have four more to go and he's got eight more to go so I got to get the hell out of the way like we only have a couple minutes here. And I had that same feeling like I was I I had gone out out and I needed to double tap that one and I'm like man I I think I got to hustle like if we're gonna get if we're gonna be done here based on what Ryan and what Rusty have you know told us on time like we gotta absolutely move. And we ended up both Jason and I cleaned it and I I don't that was like the that amount of engagement and firing was the most exciting for me being I think a PRS guy. And you know if I was shooting a top loader 270 you know win or something like that it'd be a different story.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

But being mag fed 6'5 Creed like it like let's go you know yeah you know you talk about uh only having to shoot four shots and that's really rewarding and my mag I had a five round mag with a three round ascension on it so I had eight shots and uh I remember I I went I I don't remember what what stage was before the fox and the coyote on the f on day one but uh whatever it was I must have cleaned it the fox you know what we one thing that was the fox and the coyote on two different mountains it was it was the three bears no no no there was two three bears were before it was the it was the three three bears before it okay okay and so I must have cleaned that because one two three one one that one thing that we changed is hey we're putting our magazine we're taking our you know the RO says okay put your mag in take your your chamber flag out well they didn't tell me that on the uh on the fox and the coyote stage and it's a it's a you know a hopefully a four round stage well I go up there and I I glass them I get my range I get down in position I'm like oh shit I didn't put my mag in so I pull my mag out of my pocket and it's like oh shit I forgot to load my mag you have no four rounds left from last stage no I had four and I'm like oh god I better clean these that was a little stressful I luckily I cleaned it but yeah yeah that was uh that was a close one you you cleaned a lot last weekend you shot extraordinarily well yeah for the till the end um well so the next let's talk about that Danny what I mean we're talking about what worked well or what format you know uh stage formats worked well you have any anything else to mention there Dan before we talk about what Rusty wants to talk about yeah we'll we'll I'll just brief touch on you know like I said we have the traditional um hunter format stages and that you know the either the two target or four target two two points um or one point or zero and then the next one uh would be we did I did some three target stages and it and it was essentially engage you know one two three from the first position then move then engage back to one or you just stay in the same position engage one two three then go back to one so um I think people like those the problem was some people just couldn't get out of that that mindset essentially of just the traditional mindset and they had to really pay attention to that stage think outside the box um because they it seemed like they would like to default back to you know the current the current format and um and it took them a few stages to kind of get in that rhythm but once they did they they enjoyed it um and then the next one that I think we all really liked was the Vital Zone stage or stages yeah um which was some cool and and honestly I think the majority of people probably like those the most um I personally love the two glassing position stages because it's just a different dynamic that the my favorite but I also love the the vital zone because it is more applicable to hunting to where um you know you have the animal target it's not life size but it's a larger target and then I put a um a smaller square circle in front of it you know aligned in that um vital zone area and it made you make a good shot you know you either hit the vital zone and you moved on or you missed the vital zone but you hit the animal and then you had to re-engage and then you move on. So um so we could talk about those we did two of those stages um essentially uh both of them had two animal targets two you know but one had two deer one had two antelope uh two positions so you drop down shot target one target two moved and then just only re-engage target one again and that was mainly for uh point limitation because it was a maximum of three points per engagement so we just kept it at a max of nine points per stage so there wasn't a big swing so yeah one thing that we talked about did you do want to do on the vital stuff um on one of the stages I did good I dropped one on the other one I dropped three um so I uh I actually hit the vital on the first deer went to the second deer hit the animal hit the animal again came back thought well I got this win for the vital the vital had dropped down a little bit to where it was a little bit below the level of the animal or at least part of it was anyway I uh I thought I got this I don't have to worry about this and and uh I shot and I missed just to the right of the vital which there wasn't a deer there that was dirt so I hit dirt anyway that hurt but anyway um but I really like those stages you know those uh and when we talked about that yeah we were concerned that people if we did two and two that's a potential 12 round stage and what we didn't want to do we want to keep it fair we didn't want to have you know a a six a six point potential six point stage somewhere and a 12 point stage somewhere and then the wind come up to where everybody's missing everything but whoever has the six round stage is only going to drop six points but whoever has the 12 point stage is going to drop 12 points.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

So we only had or he only had I should say um eight and nine point or around you know possible point stages. So I think that's kind of important in this format. You can you can get wildly inventive but you want to try to keep it as fair as possible and that's kind of a balance that you need to maintain as a match director I think.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

And and I think I got to look at the data again but I don't think a lot of people cleaned um each one or both of them I don't I don't know if anybody cleaned both of them um I don't and I I know whole only a handful of people that cleaned each one. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

I know Scott and Ryan did.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

You know because we we would ask we were chasing you guys all weekend after the first couple stages and it's like man like I think it's these vital zone ones where we could make a comeback and you guys came off first one are like yep cleaned it like oh now we're gonna lose points we got really lucky with the win because those were pretty spicy I mean you could still get a point like Rusty said you could you get a point but you know that three points really nice to get and we just had the same win you know for both of us held out yeah it held up for us yeah yep yeah I I like the vital stuff that that was cool uh you know it was small targets and kind of tricky positions you know you triple pull rear tripod you know and for like that's just not something that I've practiced a lot of but you know I can tripod rear things so shouldn't have been terrible but um yeah I think I think we did pretty well on the on the vitals as well.

SPEAKER_04 34:41

What I liked about it is if if you miss the vital and you hit the deer or the antelope um with a single point follow up like it's just and and and the and the animal target is big like it was just rack another send it like I got to get to the next target engagement and try to make a really good wing call.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

So if you if you see you miss a vital and you hit the hit the animal like just send another and and that honestly in a real hunting scenario that's probably what you're gonna do right like if um if you hit an animal and that thing if that thing takes off if you got an opportunity for follow-up you're probably gonna take a follow up on the mass of the the animal you're not you're not gonna really you know concentrate on hitting right behind a shoulder you know yeah and we can even like like I said I I know initially the the point you know getting that point system in in the impact scoring was a little bit more complicated. So I think moving forward we can make some little tweaks to where a second vital zone impacts were two or we could we can adjust things as as needed but um the concept I think is there for people and what match factors to continue with it.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Oh yeah you could do so many different variations on that I mean you could have it to where you do have two animals and you have two positions and you have you engage both of the animals from both positions but the vital zone is worth three on on on each animal for the first position but the vital zone is out of play or not out of play but it doesn't count for anything extra and then it's a it goes to a two you know a two one dead target like we normally do. So you know and you could also have and that would give that would give you 10 point possible right but you could do another one where well we've got a vital target on the first target not a vital target on the second target and then you go to the next position and the vital is out of play on the first target. It's just a you know both of them are two two one dead target. So that's a nine point potential so there's just so many variations that we could do on that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah I like how we I like how Dan set up those vital zone targets too because you're not getting the false positives of having the you know a a big piece of steel with the flapper behind it.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

You know yeah I mean Dane Lentz would have made the whole entire thing 300 norma yeah and I mean maybe and the cool part is maybe a better vital zone target system evolution comes from this like maybe better targets come from from this match. You know we're we're kind of just thinking of rifles and stuff but like dude it'd be cool to see you know better these style targets kind of evolve to where like now we can we can run them in matches and it's gonna be cool cool to shoot at cool to see so yeah I would love to see all that yeah so one of the one of the things that I wanted to bring up um and Dan maybe you don't want to bring this up because you didn't run it at your match um but it it's something that I think uh it deserves more discussion.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

Uh and we talked about this at Shot Show and it was uh Mits Mitch Fitzpatrick right of uh MDT um brought up an idea for scoring that you know uh a first round impact worth two a second round impact worth one but if on a second round shot you miss make that negative points uh which is outside of what you do for BRS right like take points away um but when considering a hunting scenario a second round miss or a bad shot maybe should be penalized.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I I was almost I was thinking I was thinking like if you put if you shoot the first round and you miss the vital but you hit the animal and then you follow up with a miss, then that's when you you know you lose a pointer it goes back to zero or something like that. But then like I said there was some wild concepts you know between Mitch and and Francis and and I mean but at the end of the day go I was gonna say at the end of the day it still has to be a simplified conversation between the shooter and the RO and we can make this you know however but like when you're on the clock and you know you just don't want confusion and you know um arguments and if you can prevent that like yeah we can do a lot of things but at the end of the day it's still a rifle match that we got to be somewhat practical with.

SPEAKER_03 39:15

So and then you think about it you know we've got a we've got a lot of new shooters that come to you know they're hunters but they're new to the match and uh I mean every one of these matches has a lot of new shooters and then you think about that and you think a lot of the guys miss you know because they haven't done this much. You start giving them negative points and it's like at the end of the day yeah I'm down like I'm negative 20 it's like that's that's a way to crash that would have been me that sounds like something for Paul Dallas and as this as the series evolves yeah that would be the nuts sorry Paul no it that's a great match it's just yeah it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

We could expand into something like that.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

Example like that that uh stage 17 with uh itty bitty bear you know it would if you didn't hit the first one you could do yeah that was that was spicy but take me take me bear just be like hey I I I don't want to take a negative point and I don't think my chances are any better hitting it the second time as the first time so you just like hey you know I'm not gonna take the shot which is brings in the whole ethical you know and and I've serviced I've serviced a ton of these um questions and complaints and stuff like that from the very beginning you know with um the uh you know the um cam the match at cameo and then the the first season of the series were like well I don't hunt like this I'm like well you could you know and or you know you know all the different questions a power factor question I really liked how we did that you know because that involves you know now you can go out there with a nine pound 243 and you're beating a stock 6'5 Creedmore you know a 13 pound 6'5 creed more you're actually gaining points on them um so I think that's a that's a great segue to what we should talk about next and that like the handicap system before we started and I'll preface this with about the stages I'm sure we'll come back I'm sure we'll come back well I'm sure we'll come back to that rusty rusty's got something to say stage 17 but I I like the segue so I'm gonna I'm gonna roll with it um I I'll be honest and this is prior to uh Missy and I purchasing the PRS and all that I never felt like I would be welcome to shoot an NRL hunter match because um like it it just required a different weapon system you know and and and what I you know for a long time I shot a gap PPR 6GT it's a rifle system I've hunted with it weighs about 18 pounds you know so is that crazy to actually hunt with no you know and that especially if you're a Wisconsin hunter and you're walking out to a deer blind you know and you're gonna you're gonna sit and probably take a shot at 150 yards or less likely 80 yards or less but um is it a capable weapon system for hunting a hundred percent it is like what it whether it's coyotes at night um if you want to go shoot prairie dogs with it you can do that like you should be able to use that um but I never felt like it was welcomed it felt like anything six millimeter like you get the hell out of here right and I and I and I think that was intentional right like and I get where you know the practicality of you know hey a minimum power factor so that um you know it excludes some of the race gun stuff and I I get why that happened but um what I like about what you're gonna explain next Dan and with your weight power factor is that bring what you got. Like it's about becoming comfortable with the weapon system that you have and it doesn't matter you know where where you start out handicap wise, but like just come shoot. Right? Bring what you want and come shoot.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah I mean I could I could add to you know how that minimum power factor kind of came about um from the beginning was um I was trying to attract um the you know you're you're uh Abbott hunter, recreational shooter and you know they when you say you know I'm gonna go elk hunting with a 243 I'm like the four of us understand that. We we get it. Yeah you can do that 100%. But um to 90% of the hunters out there they'd be like just even though you know a lot of them you know they'll they'll shoot three shots on a paper plate stapled to a tree and you know they hit it three times and like I'm good. You know, and then they're you know they're they're out into the woods, you know, and they're they're unethical before they even, you know, right take the first step on the hunt. But, you know, the the the converse, you know, their argument is, you know, well, you know, you're you're kind of limited to what you can hit on a on a big elk out west with the 243. You're pretty much locked into a heart long shot. And you know it's not very forgiving. So um and I've talked with Jon Snow about this endlessly, but I mean the the um the original concept was you know six five Creedmore would be probably the minimum thing I would take on an elk hunt. And and it was the power factor was based around factory Hornedy ammo 143 ELDX's at you know 27. Yeah and I just and and I just drew a line in the sand and I was like we're not gonna cross this until the sport evolves right and that was the intent was like for the first year this is it and then but then you know I ended up going to Japan and I didn't really get a chance to be more involved in decision making along those lines but you know and as soon as Dan said he was going to do an match I was like I got an idea buddy and he expanded on it and and made it really elegant well to be Dan explain explain what we did.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

I I love it.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

Go ahead Russy well okay so I was just gonna say to be to be fair to Scott I think when he started this his concept was we're gonna try to some simulate western hunting and so it wasn't we weren't thinking about you know guys that walked 300 yards and got in a tree stand. So I think that's what he was thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

And yeah most guys out here don't use a 243 um they're gonna use it like a you know some 6'5 and so yeah it expanded from there and now they're allowing those but uh but yeah I think uh we need to I just wanted to say that um yeah I think that you know my and talks and obviously Scott and Rusty and and Brandon and Ken and I mean even John I am everybody I mean I ran this by because like the more opinions sometimes it it's a good you know sometimes it's not a good thing but like just everybody has a little bit different perspective and you kind of just you know put together something that you know makes the most sense. I you know obviously after shooting InterL Hunter for what five or six years now um you know we saw what works really well and we saw what you know I think there's some changes that that could be made for it to be even better. And I wanted to see you know I wanted to see more you know rifle systems be allowed while just having one kind of open division and um you know because there are guys that shoot you know either production or open light or whatever. And honestly a good shooter can shoot any one of those divisions and still win. So um like I said I wanted to open it up for more shooters more rifle systems more calibers but also like how can you balance it out so that everyone's you know competing on the same playing field without trying to overly game it like let's do something to where this doesn't turn into just like a full race gun series but it's more like geared towards like hunting and and what we do. So that's why you know that concept you know the the handicap system came came about um and it wasn't just me it was like I said it was it was a lot of ideas. I do think the the base is is there I I would love to see a couple little minor tweaks to it um I think that we can go a little bit lighter on the power factor scale um because you know especially for teams like what I saw you know with with Brianna normas or or these bigger calibers for teams you have a spotter essentially so being on every single target seeing exactly where it goes um as a team is not as crucial as an individual and you can get away with bigger calibers because you're not having to you don't necessarily have to see everything like you would when you're by yourself and it kind of skews it in one direction. But um I do think that we need to really be you know to keep the weight um handicapped where it's at or even expand on it as well because obviously this is you know a hunting style field style match and um you know lighter weight rifles are going to be more practical because that's what the majority of the people used. Yes there are some guys in you know Alde East or wherever that hunt with heavier systems but I mean even them walk in however far to wherever they're going I mean having something a little bit lighter they're not gonna carry you know I'm I'm sure some do carry a PRS weighted rifle but not that's not the majority. So that's kind of where I'm at with everything. I love the fact that like we're able to adapt and really evolve as we see fit. Like we we run a match see what happens look at the data kind of get you know all everybody's perspective and then make a changes as we need it. Like let's not just like create something and like it is what it is but like let's really try to to try to build the most practical system um that that's going to evolve into to the best option.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

So a hundred percent and then you know with that um you know the the first year you know you had the first match so we learned a lot from it and then as you know match directors men with ideas they can they can um you know expand on it as well and then you know all of a sudden then we have you know a consensus from application not just you know you know 15 guys sitting together and coming up with rules that you know as as Rusty said when we were having a conversation but but what about me you know I mean that was funniest in that was one of the funniest interactions all weekend but but you know the rules and incentivize behaviors um you know and and you know what what are we looking to incentivize you know um you know the the heaviest practical caliber that you can manage in a light system um and as a team absolutely 100% you should you know um Ryan and I game the heck out of it we're like we're gonna come in at 13 pounds and we're gonna shoot six five PRCs and we're gonna, you know, with the heaviest bullet we can find and we're gonna gain a few points on the the power factor side of the house. You know and I I talked to you guys m basically all weekend about it. I'm sick of it but um I I'd like to introduce you know like a total pack out weight in a if I do a match you know I'm I'm gonna be like you know we don't and that would in a lot of ways I think even out the playing field even more you know where you know every every item that you're carrying with you you're making a decision over you know do I carry this set of binos and this tripod you know am I gonna be able to carry a 15 pound bag and still make weight you know for you know total weight to the first stage you know and that that incentivizes tech right so like that first match in cameo and then we started the the series um it really kind of pushed towards lighter rifles lighter accurate rifles not just you know lighter overall rifles so um you know these um these you know you get so you know you may have 200 000 hunters go out in the field and you know half of them maybe take an animal and then and then there's no feedback loop on what's successful um versus this we have impact scoring we have match directors we have uh first through you know 150 place then there's a feedback loop right there for all of our manufacturers to be you know well this is working and this is working that's working this isn't working so it it drives the tech in a lot of ways because we probably shot more rounds um between the 150 or 175 guys out that that went out to your match Dan than you know maybe was fired in all of California at deer last year.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Oh yeah and there's that built in back loop yeah what else is cool is like you know someone could literally buy a tikka off the shelf like rusty throw it into a better chassis a better stock you know the MDT carbon you know whatever and then they're competing almost winning the match you know just with everybody else so there's it's not like it's a it's a real money race because there's options out there. Yeah well yeah but I mean I'm just saying it's it's a great example it's a great example of like you know there are platforms out there that like you don't you know yeah we you know if you're building whatever custom obviously we love that but we also love it for a guy to buy a tikka and just be able to basically win with a tika so yeah uh so Dan and I have have talked about this I I think from almost day one when we started talking about this series and and getting started and like the we we understand that the potential or the power that we hold and whatever the rule set is that we develop is is probably to your point Scott going to develop technology right um if you look at um if you look at the PRS and the rules um that that we have right like whether you like the production rifle concept or not um the fact that the pricing on that rifle is three thousand dollars and you can get a essentially a custom rifle ready to go race gun for$3,000 which is crazy because that's a piece set together would be there's several options for that.

SPEAKER_04 54:25

So whether you think that is a legit factory or not and I know that argument exists like without that rule set that rifle doesn't exist. Nobody would do that right no no manufacturer would do that. The Lou pulled Mark V when the that Mark VR2 reticle uh was brought out and pricing was set it was priced at$1999 right it packs way above that price point and in fact they probably could have charged$2400 for it but they charge$1999 because the production division in the PRS was capped at$2,000 for a scope so whether you like the division or not I I like saying like you are effing welcome right yes and I'll even yes I'll give you a compliment a compliment to to uh I guess Scott and Travis of the NRL hunter and when you guys developed the rules that you did with the power factor the way it was that absolutely led to the development of the 25 Creedmoor which is a fantastic round for all around hunting and sporting and all of it right like and it it is now Sammy. Like I don't know what Hornady paid to sponsor that to have it go through the SAMI uh specifications and requirements and all that and be published. I know they're out a ton of money to be able to do that whoever sponsors it is but damn is that a great round and it's all thanks to the NRL Hunter and Scott that original power factor you came up with. So taking that into consideration here and we're at the cusp of this like we want to be careful not to make things too rigid. Right? You don't we don't want to we don't want to create a rule set that puts everything in a box and all of a sudden becomes a gear race right we want the Rusty Homers or you know the the next generation Rusty Homers that you know have a have a TK at home and they're like wait I can I can just take yeah I yeah I can just take this rifle system put it in a better stock or chassis and and then I'm competitive absolutely you are you don't have to go nuts on the gear race side of this thing right okay let's take a brief break in the show to give a shout out to one of our partners Eberly stock the official pack of the Precision Rifle series. And PRS Chaos is the enemy the upranger is how you keep it all in check every round every tool exactly where it belongs. Go check them out Eberlystock.com last point like this would be awesome to see what develops from this concept and Scott if you're saying it's pack out weight like where I can see this going is there are going to be very hunting specific, we'll call them day packs that'll be made that like hey this this holds your tripod it holds a light sandbag holds some nutrition some extra ammo and you're good to go like yep and and there will be people who who will maybe this is a little too much soap oxy. I don't know because I I I I'm a people pleaser I want everybody to be happy but there will be people really upset with us to be like nobody needs that bag it's stupid it's designed just for this and like but that bag is$125 or whatever. It does only what you need it to do. It's perfect for what we do and if you're gonna be a a day hunter where you know you're leaving the pickup truck and you're going up in a mountain and coming back that day it's perfect for you.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

You are effing welcome you know yeah I mean we're we the um the the PRS rig is you know everything is you know weight equals stability and it's the easy it's the easy button. I'd like to see this the tech push towards light stability you know something that you know you're you instead of using your hand and a glove you know to for your rear support and the prone you know you can carry a one and a half or two pound bag and it doesn't it's it's not gonna you know it's not gonna beat you into the ground on the way up the hill but it makes you more stable and more apt to harvest your game you know or hit a target or whatever. But yeah light stability is the is the trajectory that I'd like to see coming along and on the military application too. I mean I don't know how many times I've carried 90 pounds of lightweight gear.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Lightweight precision and lightweight stability and lightweight shootability is definitely going to be the evolution um yeah and I was just gonna touch on a point on the caliber aspect is like you know the the current system in place is like the first evolution of of it, you know, with the power factor. But the limiting part about that is a lot of guys are just trying to make that minimum amount um you know because there's no incentive other than ties, but you're just really trying to be at that minimum amount. So now this next evolution is to open it up to to anything and everything and to really see what the actual best most precise like caliber is and to see to like I said it's just the next evolution of the next step and to see where it goes.

SPEAKER_04 59:25

Yeah shootability and lethality right that's what we're looking for yeah I uh I had a conversation this morning it was with Red Hawk Rifles uh they're out of Grand Junction they're um they're actually a fantastic supplier of rifle components for basically anything you want to build like this um and there the social media gent gentleman um that was on the call with us he said like hey we're we're actually producing a video today and it's on my hunting rig.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

We're gonna we're gonna build my hunting rig up you know I have all the components etc and it's a 65 PRC carbon barrel uh I think it was a Hunt 26 um you know like a a standard mountain rifle right in a 65 PRC um what the beauty of this is like this guy already has his rifle system the way that he wants it and he's he's not gonna put extra weight on you know if he's like at 14 pounds he's probably not gonna try to peel off a pound to get under that 13 pound weight limit right like that might not be possible um but he's also not gonna put two pounds of weights on just so that he's like hey I you know that's stability I want I I got to be as close to 16 without going over which isn't like you wouldn't do that to go hunting you know you would you would build the rifle system how you want it and then you compete with it right no no additional weights unless you really want it you know and place it in the right spot for balance or something along those lines yeah hey real quick um explain explain your charts for us so like 13 pounds 6'5 greedmore uh explain the weight and the and the handicap and then explain the power factor and handicap how it goes um so we made like a 13 pound you know that that rifle is kind of the neutral point essentially and then um up to 17 pounds um it is like a per point per pound but it's linear so you can be you we want the percentages and everything um and then down to nine pounds you could be under nine but I just capped it as far as points advantage at nine so you can gain four points uh down to nine um and then uh you know with the power factor I I just took a little bit off the 380 and made it to like 370 and essentially you know 370 is the neutral point and you know you can run it all the way down to a 223 I made it like 270 basically it just caps off you can run less than that but you're just not going to lose any more points and then up to um I forgot the exact number but it was like a 300 PRC where you could gain up to 300 uh where you can gain up to three points like I said it's all linear with decimals um and anything over that you're just you're just capping out at that that point. But um like I said that's and then whatever that is you know with your weight and the power factor um going into the match you're handicapped so you're either you're either gained a few points or or half a point or whatever it is or you lost a little bit and that's kind of your starting point system going into the match. But like I said I I would like to now that seeing everything and seeing how things play out I would love to see um we scale back the power factor a little bit as far as points wise and then maybe emphasize or keep uh the weight where it's at and then maybe even allow past 17, you know, because we do want other guys to be able to shoot it, you know, shooters that are shooting PRS or whatever the case may be and they're not they want to try this without having to build a whole new rifle system. We don't want to exclude them but it also needs to be somewhat of a penalty you know bringing certain rifles into the match.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:17

So yeah. A couple a couple folks I want to point out and you can see this on impact scoring um so we had well the the team that won it right which was uh Dane Lentz uh and and Ryel Masud I'm assuming Masud's his last name um they won this uh they they started the match with 6.44 points in the bank right so they they started in the lead I don't think there's anybody that had more points uh handicapped points than they did um shoot 300 normas that probably weighed 10 or 11 pounds right which is I don't I forgot what Ryle was running but that was what Dane was running. Dane got the majority of the point for the team yeah yeah yeah it was wild but it I mean uh it wasn't till we were two thirds or three quarters of the way through the match that I had this conversation with Scott and Ryan like wait a minute if you're shooting teams you should have a lightweight cannon out here right like you so that because your team can spot for you. And then and then Scott and Ryan look right at me and like yeah you think of that and I'm like no no but I love it I do I do love it. One other gentleman I wanted to point out and he was squatted with us Jordanagawa he he basically brought a PRS rig out cap the other way. Yeah yeah he started negative five points in the hole because he was shooting a 16 pound six arc and it was almost yeah he he modified his his PRS rig and was like yeah it's it's what I want to shoot. Like that's a great rifle system. You know you're not you know you're not gonna take that on a big western hunt and expect to take down a a a good sized animal but let's be honest like how many freaking prairie dogs have we shoot at this weekend you know or coyotes and foxes or whatever. All of them exactly so it's it's a fun rifle system for this game right you just start out points in the hole and he did a great job I mean finished 20 25 out of a you know uh 113 teams and individuals um starting that many points back I think he was I think he was top 10 for individual I'll have to look he might have been top five he was up there even with the even with the handicap yeah you'll have to sort the teams out of it yeah yeah although you know I don't know if I would like my current PRS rig you know race gun rig's like 24 pounds I don't know if I'd want to

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

Shoot that match. I don't know if I'd want to shoot you if it does. My shoulders would be man, it just the positions were funky, lots of tripod.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

I messed and I made it like that for a reason. So that way it challenges like you can't, it's not straightforward. You're gonna be into awkward positions, but that's how that's how hunting is too, especially in that terrain. Like we uh I've shot it, I mean, not in those spots, but but Brandon and I have have shot animals in in all those different positions that we shot off of. So um I made it as realistic as possible. I will just so I don't forget, cat kind of caveat back to the teams thing, and we can maybe expand on this later. Um, but about like different team scenarios would be cool to see like paired firing, other type of expanding on the team um aspect of it because teams are super fun. I love shooting teams. Like I shoot, you know, I've shot I started shooting teams with with Brian Pence and then I switched over to um Ryan Steinforth. Then I've shot and I love it. I love honestly, the team aspect is is my absolute favorite. And I was even talking to Ryan about it, like doing some paired firing in this match. The only thing we have so many new kind of you know scenarios to where I didn't want to throw that extra thing in, at least for this one, but I would love to see paired firing on not on every stage, but maybe some stages. And then like other kind of an yeah, an evolution in an evolution in the team aspect of it would be even would be super fun too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:40

Yeah, I think um the the ability for the team to decide, you know, based on position and and because some of those spots you wouldn't want to do uh volley firing because you'd just run out, you'd run out of a space or run out of you know, tripod, run out of freaking just about everything to try to, you know, because there's a lot of times when I would just um Ryan would pick his rifle up from where he was, and I would sit down where he, you know, and just clip in or use the bag that he was just using. Um and it because it made sense to do that. And I think like maybe one of you, I can't remember, I think there was a team that was kind of prone-ish. That would have been nice to be able to volley fire that. But um, but you know, give the give the teams the option, hey, we're gonna volley fire this now. Um, but you have to have switched on ROs to do that, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

So that's yeah, that's the thing. Um what about you, Rusty? What you've been quiet. Well, what what we got? Taking it all in.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:44

Um teams, I I love student teams. I've shot teams a couple of times with Ryan Steinforth and Paul Dallin. And yeah, that's a ton of fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

I I really enjoy it. I guess on the power, well, how do you feel about the power factor? Not the power, I keep saying, I mean, it is a part of it, but the handicap system. Well, the handicap system in general.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

Okay, so I really love what you did with the handicap system. I think it uh, like you say, it allows everybody to shoot in the same division. Even the teams, I think a lot of people didn't understand this initially, but even the teams are shooting against the individuals. So what you do with your handicap is you take both of the team members handicapped. They each get an individual handicap, but you you you know, you add those together, and then you add the entire team score together with their handicap, and you divide that by two, and each of those team members are individuals in the score in the uh competition. And so there was a team, I can't remember, I think they walked like fourth or something like that. So they are competing against all the individuals. And I, you know, I was talking to I think Dan about this, but it's like it seems like in this format the teams, if you get two good shooters as a team, it seems like they ought to walk away with it every time, um, just because they can spot for each other, right? Um, but that typically doesn't happen, even in even any other series. But uh I think that you could see that happen. But anyway, we'll we'll see how it goes. But I think the way you did it worked out really well. Um, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you that you that you should tweak that power factor down a little bit. Um, but I think it worked out really well.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

I I think you should make the power factor go up. It's just you know, go the other way with it, but it's just harder on steel, you know. Um it's just me though. I like I like my 300 win mag.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

Well, I think I think again, when you give the power factor more more weight, it it really advantages the teams over the individuals, right? It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

And since you're all competing against each other, yeah, I don't know if I really agree with you on that, but oh I was gonna say I don't think teams walked until what fourth or fifth place as as far as their their overall score. So I mean, still, even with all that, I mean, it it still kind of balanced itself out.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:15

No, I think so. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:18

Yeah. So the next steps here to answer some of these questions, right, is for us to take a deep dive into impact scoring, understand what the rifle systems were, um, what their handicap was, see where they end up, right? And um I I think it's in I think it's important for us, at least in this first season, and we'll talk about what the first season looks like here in a minute, but it to remain some somewhat flexible, right? Maybe we maybe there is a different um, you know, factor, you know, maybe it's a point a pound, or if the power factor, you know, it's a point every 30,000 or every 20,000 or every 50,000, right? I think it's important for us this first season to give that some flexibility to see how things work out, right? Um that was a point of the test match, like really let's let's test it out. Let's see how Dane Lance does with a 300 win uh norma, you know, that weighs weighs so little. And they won the match, you know. They they they they had the most handicap and the most points. Um, you know, so where do we where do we balance it out? We'll have to figure that out and do the math.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

Yeah, and I think, you know, being able to maybe incentive figure out a way to incentivize suppressors as well might be you know, because I know I hunt my daughter and I hunt with suppressors up here. Just I mean it's is you know, on Kayotes, it's amazing, you know, they might run at you. They get closer sometimes when you shoot at them from suppressors. Um but uh so just figuring out maybe you know how do we incentivize that, I think is a is a good goal. Another thing I saw, maybe a a data sheet. Maybe a data sheet for a rifle system, you know, for um it would do a couple things for us. It would help us collate information from caliber to manufacture, you know, scope, et cetera. And it also would, I think, help industry folks, you know, that that support us understand, you know, what's what's trending. And um, you know, so maybe having a I know Bill could do it, or you know, we could do it as well, but you know, have a data sheet, you know, what rifle do you plan on taking, what's the caliber, what's the bullet weight, what's your velocity, what's your scope, are you running suppressed, you know, factures, et cetera. And that, you know, that that's a way for us to also not just gather information, but to give back to the you know, the industry that supports us.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:49

Yep. We uh we did discuss the the you know having a a suppressor and allowing that to be in the same division, right? To where it's it's fair, and and uh you know, we've had several different ideas about incentivizing that, and we really want to do that um and how to make it fair. And you know, we've come up with, well, okay, maybe we maybe we give everybody an eight-ounce credit or a one-pound credit or whatever we come up with to use a suppressor. So if you come in with a 13-pound rifle and it has a suppressor on it, well, your your rifle weight now goes in at 12 and a half pounds, right? Because you're using a suppressor. And so that because using a suppressor, it's more difficult to see your impacts, right? So anyway, just trying to find a way to balance that out and incentivize people for using suppressors. And I think something like that is gonna be a and just a straight rule. You know, if you use a suppressor, doesn't matter how much your suppressor weighs, how light it is, um, you get a you know, eight ounce, twelve ounce credit, whatever it is we decide on, and we kind of need to figure out what the what the fair way to do that is. But I think that's a uh we talked about that a lot, and I I think we're gonna do something like that.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:03

Yeah, I th I I love the idea, and I'll I'll tell you why. One, shooting teams, and we were a few stages in. I looked at Jason, I'm like, dude, if we would shoot suppressed, this would be so much more fun. Like, you know, it it's quiet, like we could we could talk to each other, you know, better and all that. Um, but two, like I think it was the last Vital Zone stage that we shot. Um, you know, I use uh electronic in-ear ear protection and I forgot to put it in because you know you're standing around quite a bit chatting or whatever, and I didn't put it in. And I took my first shot and was like, holy cow, I can't believe I forgot that. But then with the stress of the time, I'm like, but I hit the vitals, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna engage this next target and hope for the best, knowing that I don't have ear protection in. And if I hit the vitals, though, like, okay, now when I go to that second, when I get up to move, I'm gonna pull out of my pocket and put it in my ear. Of course, that second target, I had to engage it twice. So I took three shots without ear protection, which right ear is fine, left ear away from the rifle. Like it's still ringing today. Like, you know, I I totally, if it's the dumbest thing I did all weekend, uh, I should have stopped as soon as I realized it and put ear pro in. But um suppressed, you don't have that. Like suppressed, I probably I would shoot without a brake on a can, right? I I love shooting a scythe or Magnus RR with a brake on there, uh, or even a maverick, whatever. I'd probably shoot a scythe with the with the no-brake baffle on there so that all that stuff's getting away from us. I would encourage my teammate to do it, and we'd be, you know, we'd be happy the entire weekend.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:47

I will just say, and I and I same thing. I out of state, I hunt with the suppressor now, and it's great. Um, but you know, the the couple devils advocate is there's no free weight in the New York, well, Illinois. Well, I mean, I mean, other than that, there, you know, we're we're we're giving an incentive, but there's also no free weight in the mountains. So, like, you, you know, like I said, if you want to run a suppressor, well, you're gonna add a little bit of weight. So I'm on both sides of the fence, and that's not just a California thing to me, because there's ways to get you know around it out of the state and and for everyone to run one, but it's just one of those things to where suppressor technologies come so far, um, and then with the brakes now, it's it's just like running a muzzle brake. So um yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I go either way, but I do I we kind of hear it. What'd you say, Sarah?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:44

I I I really feel like if we're gonna give uh uh you know a free weight for a suppressor, then it can't have a break in it. It can't have an internal break, it can't have an external break. If you want to run a suppressor with a break, then it's straight weight, right? But if you want to run a suppressor without an internal or external break, then you get the weight. And that's just my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:08

We'll figure it out. Yeah, and see that was and that was the that's the that was the debate with the current system, and it just and it went back and forth. And like I said, I I'm all for it. I I wish we could all, I wish everyone ran suppressor because it would make our lives better for for everything. But um, yeah, I mean that's definitely gonna be a conversation, and and maybe we like I said, we leave it up to the match director, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:33

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's also there's also the one of uh uh was Silencer Co. Quiet Riot. Anyone guys ever shoot that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:44

I shot boxing in 16, which is suppressed on the Brian Morgan, Brian Morgan in 2016.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

Yeah, that was a great new time. So pleasant fucking killer, killer match.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:56

That's another thing that you could do with uh with this series is if a if a match director wants to hold a match where a suppressor is necessary, it's it's you know, um, we can have a suppressor company come in and say, hey, I'm gonna supply all the just like they did with Brian Morgan on on his matches. It it was great. I loved those matches. You don't distrust it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:15

Everybody should distrust. Yeah, no, that was awesome. And and just to caveat, caveat that the winning score on that match was like 50 something percent. So that was uh that was a that was a legit match. That was it, that was back when like yeah, you you weren't cleaning everything, if not anything. So was that before sandbags though? Yeah, yeah. That was when only one shooter uh like really kept kept game changers away from a lot of a lot of other individuals as long as he could. Yeah, little fill.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:51

The fill, right? Poly versus sand.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:53

Yeah, no, that was back when game changers were just coming on the scene too, and like, dude, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:59

Yep, yeah. And tripods. Those big poly, yeah, the big poly built, uh, poly bead fill. Yeah. I still have that in one of my bags that I went to a uh a match with, and they're like, hey Scott, the 90s called and they want their bag back from the modern back in the build.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:21

Yeah. One of the things that I wanna I wanna tail on to Rusty there, where you're like, you know, hey, it's gonna be suppressors, no brakes, you know, it's it's a straight suppressor only. Um we have to be careful, and I'll reiterate this, we have to be careful in making some rules like that because it, you know, uh the suppressor category and the PRS and the amount of money that's given behind that, like that really influenced a lot of the brake design. And um, you know, what we've seen in the last couple years for you know, brakes on suppressors becoming really competitive with just brakes in general. So whatever we come up with, we have to keep that in mind. I can we just have to be um we have to be open to the fact that technology will evolve and and and maybe maybe it is you know no brakes and suppressors need to evolve to to you know have incredible recoil reduction without a break, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:19

Well, I'm um or maybe it's quiet quieter breaks. I don't know. I'm not suggesting that we don't allow suppressors with brakes. I'm saying if we're gonna get it give an incentive of of uh you know, if we're gonna give a point reduction or a handicap reduction or whatever, um if you know if you give a bonus of eight points for a suppressor, you don't give that if the suppressor has a break. Then it's then it's straight weight. But if you do bring a suppressor with no break, then you get the and that's just my suggestion. I've been suggesting that for a long time. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:52

Um all right, so let's talk about what the future of this looks like, right? And we've talked about flexibility and and and what what we've done, you know, for this match, what Dan did. Um what uh what is this gonna look like? Um, and Dan, I'm gonna have you fill in the blanks here to start anyway. What does this look like us now that we've had a successful match?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

Yeah, and I'll and I'll just reiterate Dan Dan and Brandon because you know, like I said, this doesn't happen without him and the property and and him helping me, you know, set it up because and he is he is the match director too. Um, so I definitely want to reiterate that. Um, because anyways, um and everybody else, like there's so many people that that help with matches, and I'll just be brief on this, but like it takes a it takes a freaking village, like it is, it is a lot of work to do it right. Um, and you can tell the match directors that kind of just write it off, and then the ones that really put in the effort to to make it happen. Because I, you know, as all of us as shooters and competitors, like, you know, when we travel to these things, you know, it it's it's it's a lot of time and effort. And we don't, you know, our our time is valuable. And I don't want people to feel like they spent a weekend and and not like got some value out of it. But yeah, the future is, you know, the next step is to approach and then to continue conversations with um match directors and to really like um figure out what the best matches in the best locations at the best time of the year, and really code go to match directors and be like, hey, like when is the best time of the year for you to run a match, you know, given the whole entire year as an option, um, when's the best time for you? And and and you know, don't really have a limiting factor on on time frame um because I'd rather see it done, you know, at the best time of the year rather than just squeezing everybody in into a certain little time frame. And, you know, it just it just you just have issues with that that I've seen. Um and let's at least for the first year, let's put together a season and a series of the best, you know, matches and match directors and and like a lot of these guys that have some, you know, creative ability to to try new things and to really like think outside the box. So yeah. That's kind of what I see.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:34

I like how our season is our the the two the NRL season and our season are offset, and it allows us to follow the sun, you know, follow the weather, I would say. Yeah, like the PGA does, yeah, exactly like the way the PGA does. We can follow the weather, you know, we're not you might get cold, you might get hot, but you're not gonna get, you know, the sun isn't gonna be sitting on the back of your neck, you know, in the middle of Oklahoma, um in the middle of the summertime. So um I like that. And I like the uh the whole entire attitude, Ken, that you're bringing to it of, you know, let's let's follow what's working and let's let's keep it open for for experimentation and um and see what works. And I think that um that's gonna gather a lot of momentum. And I think, you know, like Dan said, having, you know, venues and you know, match directors. Um I did that the first year with the NRL Hunter series, is that yeah, I reached out to guys I knew that could do this and run a great match. And I think we only had nine or ten matches that year, but they were all good. So yeah. Um so that's I think, you know, um and then have a feedback loop for the for the match directors too, is like, you know, uh a simple Google survey, just send it out to the the competitors and just be like, you know, what did you like? What didn't you like, you know? And um, I think most of the time we know what we did right, and sometimes the blind spot is what we did wrong until you get that, you know, the social media explosion the next day, you know, on Facebook and people like this sucked, and why, you know, and you're like, fuck, man, you have that conversation with me, you know, yes, yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:25

Yeah, honesty, honesty is rare these days. Um, but yeah, any feedback is great feedback.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:32

So So uh sort of tentatively, we're we're talking about starting in August this year, right? About a hundred days from now. Uh try to get some matches lined up for the for the fall over the winter. Um, you know, I've talked to a few different Texas NBs that I think would do a great job. Um, and they they said, hey, like we can do October, November, December, you know, which is a great time of year to be down in Texas. Um, you're not too hot, you're not too cold. Um, you know, shoot through, shoot through the winter, you know, especially when there's a lull in the PRS and other stuff, like uh just after hunting season, after the holidays, that type of thing. And then um aiming to have our championship May or June time frame, right? Um, I think we we think that there's some open weekends outside of graduations and you know other other obligations, Mother's Day, that type of thing. Like we think there's some open weekends there that we could uh we could target for a finale that would work pretty much all over the country, right? Like that, you know, if we go the first weekend in May or the third weekend in May staying away Mother's Day, um that weather is probably really nice in Washington. It's nice in Wisconsin, it's nice in Arizona, it's nice in Texas. Like we could really uh we could really land on a weekend there and um you know host a finale anywhere. But I think what are we targeting? Probably 25 plus. Or minus a few matches for this first year. Couple a month. Three, maybe three a month and some months.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:07

Yeah, we just we gotta see like kind of who's able to do what and when and where essentially and limit it especially for the first year because it's it's it's definitely gonna be quite quality over quantity. Um and you know, just re we really wanna put our best foot forward and and you know put um you know put our time and our effort into match directors that we can trust that are are gonna take this bowl and run it and do a great job and and give everybody the experience that that they should get.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:43

So well we're also we're also gonna be limited if we can't get a match started until October, um, then we're gonna have the finale in May. That's you know, even if you do two or three a month, 25. I don't see how 25 is gonna happen. Um, I think it'd be, you know, I think 15 would be this this I think more of the number, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:01

25 25 would be yeah, the growth, the growth mark maybe for uh year two. Um that that's just my opinion. The other thing I'd like to see, um, and I was talking with Bob Hamilton yesterday. We went out and took a piece look at a piece of property, and I was like, this would be a great spot for like 10 stages, right? And you know, without getting approvals for other, you know, land use approvals. Um I'd like to see, you know, like a robust one-day series, you know, where you know, you guys aren't getting points, but you can go out there and you can you can use it as practice for the next match, you can use it to refine your skills, um, you know, a pretty low cost, point fifty, seventy-five bucks or something like that. And then start it like that and then see where it goes. And then maybe at some point in time we can look at, you know, uh a regional one-day series like we do for the PRS. And I mean, um, I've always been an advocate of one-day matches, but you know, that's just I just see that from a match director point of view and from a training and a and a servicing my the the shooters in the northwest, it's um having that one one-day match that's a decent price point for guys to go and work on on their on their skills.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:20

I guess uh piggyback on that, um I've actually had several people reach out, you know. There's been a ton of people that have reached out, like, hey, I want to host one of these, let's go. Which if if we wanted to pack every weekend from now until uh June next year with matches, we could. We could we could absolutely have one every weekend and we'd have some some weekends that have two or three. Um, but I've also had some folks reach out and say, Hey, can we use this format and do it for rim fire? Like, why not? That would be fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:57

And to caveat to onto what Scott said about the one days, and we could do, I know a lot of guys are doing this, and Dane's one of them is like, you know, on they have a one-day regional PRS match on Saturday or Sunday, and then you do the hunter match the one day on the other day, and it just it fills a lot of these people's weekends, and because the one day is where it's at. And I always tell new shooters like, hey man, if you can if you could somehow hit a one day in your area, that is where you're gonna learn the most. Um that's where and that's where I did too. I when I was shooting my best, I was shooting a lot of regional one days. So exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:34

I think I shot five national PRS matches and I shot like 15 one day matches. Yeah. Um, and that's what Bob Hamilton and I, we're working together pretty well because we're pretty close together. Um we're thinking about doing that. Um, and we're gonna, I'm gonna ask the Northwest guys what they want to do if they want to shoot, you know, because right now he has a Saturday match. I got a Sunday match at Rock Lake, and we're like, do we want to do two Hunter style matches on the same weekend or do we want to do like a PRS and a Hunter match? Or, you know, and then offset them like uh, you know, a PRS style match, you know, every other month and a Hunter style match every other month, you know, just to give guys opportunities to and then kind of to to to caveat on the 22 thing, shit, why not bring air rifles in too?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:21

I mean, you know, you be on a lot of squirrels with air. I mean, the really it's it's you know, it's endless. Like the possibilities, like there's no reason we need to limit ourselves on anything. And I would love to see at some point us kind of work ourselves in. I would love to do like a like a hunter match, uh, archery match combo, like a one-day, one day or like a big type of thing. Like, and I'm already kind of planning on that for next year, you know, working with the local archery shop. Like, like I said, the sky's the limit, and I'm ready to, you know, really walk on the moon for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:59

Um and to caveat off that, um, Rusty, you remember that first cameo match? We had three gun, pistol, shotgun. The only thing we didn't have was archery on that at that first match. There we had the whole thing going on, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:16

You're talking about the first one that you that you did before it was the series? Yep, yeah. I didn't get into any of the other stuff, but uh, but yeah, there was a lot going on. And I think that on the first championship, that was actually uh a competition. You were your total scores were going on, you know. They had the they did have archery, they had shotgun, they had three gun, they I don't know, they had a bunch of things, but it was it was kind of limited. I think it was invite only, and there were like 10 or 20 guys that were invited to do that. I I know Paul Ballon was one of them, that's the only way I knew about it, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you know, you got you guys talking about talking about uh doing the one day series. I think that, you know, like I said, most of the guys or a lot of the guys that come to these hunter style matches, it's the first match they've ever shot. And I think they're all, you know, they're hunters and they want to go, hey, I've heard about this, I want to go give it a try. I'm gonna get my butt kicked, but I want to go give it a try. And I think that if you have those one days, that's gonna be even easier for those guys to go get their feet wet, see what this is all about, and then they're gonna go, oh, I like this, I want to do it. And and plus, like you say, you learn so much. Like you, Ken, the first five stages, you said you would have been totally lost, and they are. But man, if they go do that, and then you know, you get lost in a one-day match, not a two-day match, and then you get it figured out, you get your you get the rhythm, you're like, okay, let's go do a two-day match.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:42

On the one days, it's a great starting point for some of these newer match directors to build their skills.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:48

That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:53

All right, Rusty. Tell us about your last stage of the match. We're uh we we kept cutting you off this entire time. Man, I can't even.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:08

Do you remember that? I it's kind of I don't know, maybe my mind blocked it out. Maybe Dan Dan was watching. He can probably remember it better than me.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:16

I was watching, yeah. It was it was very traumatizing. Have a therapy session later on this afternoon. So yeah, it's like watching your hero, you know, a fat it's like watching a father figure just get beat up. I mean, it's it's not it's not good to watch, though. That last stage is brutal.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:35

It it took Ryan and me off the podium as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:38

So, so what happened, just to tell everybody. So when Dan was telling me about this match, he's like, okay, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna do these, you know, because we had talked about so many ideas, and he's like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna do some of those uh, you know, the vital stages, I'm gonna do some of those multiple glassing position stages, I'm gonna do, you know, this and that. And and uh I got this one stage, I got this one stage where it's like uh it's like a you know really long range stage. There's gonna be like a you know 1200 yardish target and a couple of couple things at like 850, and and uh I'm like, you're you're gonna have one stage like that? And he goes, Yeah, yeah, just one stage. I think it'd be great to throw one light, get that in. I'm like, okay, well, you realize how unfair that's gonna be for the last guy who the last people who have to shoot that, who have to shoot it, you know, late in the day, either on day one or day two, it's just gonna crush him. I mean, I said, I can even imagine, you know, some guy coming in and he's ahead. He's like beating, he's winning. And then he goes to that last stage and he just gets crushed. And so I walk onto that, it is my last stage. He he pre-squatted us, and I think he did this intentionally, he pre-squatted us to where it would be my last stage, and so I go into this stage and I'm three and a half points ahead, I think, something like that. And I had only dropped one shot all day. You could only drop three. No, I had only dropped one stage that's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:07

No, I'm saying you could have you could only drop three shooting.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:10

Yeah, I could I could drop three. And uh Dan goes over there because he wants to watch, it's like he wants to watch the train wreck, right? So he's sitting there watching this thing happen. And uh I go up to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:21

I want to watch you just like be like a hero boatman.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:26

Yeah, okay, right. And uh I go up there, I'm like, this just can't this can't happen. I mean, we had this crazy uh seven o'clock to six o'clock wind, and there was an updraft because it was you know long ways away, so there's a ridge going up to it, and it was just up and down, and I'm like, there's just no way. And so I dropped six points. I get a two on that stage. And I think I heard Dan snickering behind me the whole after I dropped that you know, that fourth shot, he's just snickering. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:58

I was crying, I was those were those were tears. In this podcast, if we can, we'll I'll send you a picture of the deer target so you could drop it in here at how big it was.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:10

Why don't you send a picture of the cub target that was 850 yards?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:15

Did anyone hear that? I mean it was a bad growth year. It was a bad growth year. I I hit it when I proved it first shot. Standing tripod. Like it's it's hittable.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:26

That 25% bear was like a thousand fifty.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:30

Yeah, yeah. Let's get these yardages right. Yeah, 1140 ish and 1050-ish. Okay, I can't remember. All I all I did is write down the colour.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:43

No, the mama bear wasn't big. Giant cub was ridiculous. It's like I had to crank my scope up just to be able to make it out. You know, 15 power wasn't enough. I'd go up to 25. It looked like a pine cone up there.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:57

Yeah, there we go. That's there.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:59

I mean I can't. We can't cut a bigger piece of target off of a sheet of AR500. See, that's as big as I can.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:08

You're holding the fish out like this, bro. I can you're like 30 feet behind me.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:12

Exactly. Exactly. Those are pencils that's stuck in the ground with.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:17

That bear target? That yeah, that pygmy bear was the size of the deer head.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:24

There's no way you're making a headshot of it. It's the same size as the other bears that you shot at. There, it was plenty of things. Whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:33

What so what did we learn from this, Dan? Did we learn anything from that? You know, I mean, we talked about what went well. Okay. I learned that. Did we learn anything that we may not want to do again?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:44

Even some of our best match directors still make mistakes. It's okay to admit to it here, Dan.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:49

And you know what? I I'm bleeding that for this one.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:54

We'll have to talk about whether we want to give him another match, Ken.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:57

You know what? I told Ryan, if we would have shot up better, we would have taken third place.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:04

I to be fair, no one shot it in no wind, um, that I that I saw or that I heard about. But yeah, I I get it and I understand. And and it was just one of those things to where, hey, we got these giant targets, let's put them out, you know, past the normal range. I mean, nothing like they weren't at like 1,500 yards, but they were big and and um, but it it can skew things depending on luck of the draw, and and it is what it is. Um, I'm 99% good, you know, that's the one percent that sometimes we have an issue. So, but yeah, I'm clean this. Um it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:43

Last last week when we did this, when we did this podcast, Ken, we were talking to uh the winner of the uh the binge sack steel challenge, and uh I mentioned that Brian Lupina going into his last stage was six points ahead, and uh and then he he lost it. And I can now say that I know exactly how he feels. Yeah, dropping six points.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:07

You know, six points.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:09

Yeah. And he was shooting good all weekend, and it wasn't it wasn't a particularly hard stage. The the targets were probably 0.5, 0.6, maybe 0.4, one of the small targets, but it was just like he just got absolutely balled up by the wind.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:29

Like and that's a great point from Scott. I will caveat by saying the stage that Payden ended on was the four squirrel stage, which was just as difficult. I mean, dude, that was not it wasn't that wasn't a gimme with the wind. I mean, those were small targets out to four, you know, 450, and he cleaned it. You know, some people uh uh you know arise through adversity, and obviously, obviously, the best shooter won.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:58

And I want to congratulate Peyton. He did a great job. That dude, I didn't know who he was. I had met him a couple times, but I couldn't remember who he was. And and uh after day one, I'm looking at that's dirty. Drop two, he dropped two points all day. Dude, who is this guy? And uh anyway, he he shot extremely.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:26

Super, super good dudes, and they're they're great shooters that just keep getting better. And I mean, you know, that's that's a cool thing. Well, you know, they started with Hunter, and and to where they started, to where they're now, I mean, they're they're dethroning legends, and I love to see it. So dethroning legends.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:46

I do love to see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:48

But no, I honestly I I was I thought I thought you were gonna drop two or three on that stage, and I was gonna give you a big hug and like carry you off the hill, but also trip and fall because my leg's fractured. It was gonna be a big scene, and I was just as upset as you were.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:06

So I let you down. I'm sorry, ma'am.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:11

Oh, it's all it's all different. So I just shared my screen here, and there this is the match report uh you know from from last weekend. Um statistically. Statistically, Rusty, you didn't stand a chance.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:30

I can't see I can't see what you're talking about. It's on my phone, so I can't see what's green. I can't see it.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:35

We'll be able to when we edit this. Uh it'll be it'll be front center ball.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:42

Ooh, that was rough. Yeah.

unknown 1:43:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:45

And then 40%.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:47

It was about 20. Top score was eight. Uh no shots, 351.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:55

So really quick off off that top score, that that's just a little little glitch that there was in the system. So it's not eight out of twelve. It would be eight out of eight or nine out of nine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So somebody, a couple people cleaned it, and everybody pretty much everybody got their shots off compared to the oh wait, the PRS, every it looked like everybody almost got their shots off 169, but yeah. But does that include uh not shooting for first round hits? I I wonder about that no shots thing. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:32

I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that was the the little glitch to that might have been part of that. Um, so might not need to look at it. It was a straightforward prone stage. I mean, it wasn't you know anything crazy, and you had plenty of time for the most part. Um Yeah, and it was tough. Like I'm not not taking that away. And I'm I mean, we're we all joke around and everything, but um it was tough, and and I I mean, but you could have you could have gotten the same score on it, shooting it a different time of the day too, is is basically what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:07

We just hit it, we just hit it a weird. I think Rusty, we I mean our squad and um Ken as well, we just hit it at a weird time when we just couldn't figure out what it wanted to do for the rest of the day, you know, because it was pretty light in the morning and then it just started to build, and then we it it was almost like if I remember right, I was like it was almost like a 5 30 to 7 o'clock win. I mean, it was just terrible. Yeah, and it was Ryan hit Yeah, I mean it was up and down, too. I gave I think I gave Ryan like a seven tenths left and he hit the deer, and then we went over to the bear within seconds. I was like, same wind call, and it and he was like way off the left, like not a little bit, like I'm I'm like, man, hold hold like three tenths right. So we went from a seven a whole mil difference in a perfect storm.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:04

Yeah, I was like, it went just tailing on you guys because when I took my first shot, I held a mill for wind, and it went over as over the top on the left, but over the top, and so I measured every shot exactly. I'm like, okay, I gotta hold this low, this far over. I held and I hit in the same spot. And then I went to the bear and did the exact same thing. I'm like, I what I'm making, you made the comment, Dan, afterwards, like, how come you just kept pounding a hole shot after shot? Like, dude, I was making big cracks. I'm I'm giving you shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:39

I'm just I'm just I'm throwing salt in the wound. I'm sorry. Yeah, like it's a bad habit. Like I'm really working on it with my therapies.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:49

Throwing a high hydrogen peroxide on the straight.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:52

Exactly. I think I think that'll be the most fun thing that we do here is that you know, like we can't take ourselves too seriously here. Rusty, you know, it would have been awesome to see walk away with 5,000 bucks, but you know, he's still got 3,000. Payton shot his butt off, and I mean he he he did so well, but um the fact that we can kind of poke at each other here and yeah, yeah, Russia was just thinking about the whole I'm winning the first inaugural.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:20

Boy, that that did enter my head. He's looking more at history than he was the chat.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:27

Yeah, Payden shot.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:29

Matt and John's not here. Matt Matt and John's not here. I got this in the bag, and man.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:35

In the bag.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:38

I never thought that, but I thought there was a chance. Um you guys did great. Yeah, honestly, I I'm glad that the course of fire worked out to where it was a tight race, you know, for both teams and for individuals, and it was fun to watch and and you know, fun for the top guys to get challenged, but also have it shootable for for everyone there. So and that's that's a tough thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:07

Yeah, that's that's the magic right there. If you can get the um, you know, if you can get the guys that are new out there to still come out and hit steel, because that's you know, that's an ROI for them, you know. For sure. It's a return on investing for them. So um Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:23

For the most part, you did a really good job. 16 out of 17. 16 out of 17.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:30

That's the highest compliment ever. You got like a 93 score on that match, I think. You know.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:37

I that's still an A. And and honestly, I've been hearing that all my life, so that's that's a huge compliment for me. So for the most part. Love it. Love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:49

All right, boys. Let's uh let's pull the crew together again sometime here in the future, once we get things kicked off, uh, we get a bunch of matches signed up, and um, we'll come back to this and and uh record another one. But man, I appreciate you guys taking the time today.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:04

Thanks, Ken. Hey, thanks for having us on, man. All right, thanks for great job. Not much.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:12

I appreciate you guys. I appreciate you guys coming out and and you know, making this happen. Because like I said, if it wasn't for you guys, like this doesn't happen. So yeah, I appreciate it.