Team Shooting Is WAY Harder Than We Expected

What happens when you combine PRS-style precision shooting with hunting terrain, teamwork, target finding, and real-world field positions?
In this episode, Jason Alwues and I break down the very first Pursuit Match — a completely different shooting experience that forced us out of our comfort zones and tested communication, positioning, wind calls, and adaptability in ways traditional PRS matches never do.
We dive into:
• Team strategy and communication
• Shooting steep downhill/off-camber terrain
• Finding targets under pressure
• Rifle and caliber setups for Pursuit-style matches
• Why 6.5 Creedmoor still works so well
• Tripod setups, support techniques, and gear lessons learned
• The differences between PRS, NRL Hunter, and Pursuit matches
• Why this format may become the future of field-style competition shooting
If you’re into precision rifles, PRS, NRL Hunter, field matches, or long-range shooting, this one goes deep into what makes this format so addictive.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Stand by.

unknown 0:02

Shoot a ready. Stand by.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

All right. Welcome to another PRS podcast. Here with my good buddy Jason Alvis or teammate. Jason Alvis. I've never had a teammate in shooting, but officially I think we can call ourselves that.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Yeah. We're officially teammates now. That's a fact.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

That is. That is. Jason and I just came off of the very first pursuit match out there in uh Arbuckle, California. Um, way closer to your neck of the woods, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yeah. Still a flight, but as far as matches go, pretty close. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Yep. So where are you from, Jason? Let's uh let's do the whole introduction, background, history, all of it, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Yeah. So I was born and raised in the great state of Iowa. And uh when I was 27 years old, I moved west to Arizona, and I've lived in different parts of the state of Arizona since then. Kind of up in the um mountains above 7,000 feet in flag staff for 15 or 16 years. Started in what we call the valley in Phoenix, um eight, nine years down here, and then did the big full circle and now back in Metro Phoenix, living in Scottsdale.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Okay, okay. What uh what do you do Monday through Friday if you could talk about it?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Monday through Friday is uh a lot of work. I've been in um banking, finance, lending pretty much my my whole career. Went to uh went to college, degree in finance, um, got a job in private credit first, then banking, back in private credit now, and that's what keeps me busy um Monday to Friday.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Yep. I always find it fascinating to to learn about folks and their their in this in this hobby or this sport of ours, it's always fascinating to hear, you know, who's doing what, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

It's a diverse group.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

It is, it's not a whole bunch of operators, you know, like I think people would assume.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

No, when you talk about the sport, that's always people's first question, right? And there are some, but there are. But you know, not all. Not even, not even a majority.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

No. I and I think um I I don't remember where we were, and I think we were together this last weekend when it came up, but somebody was like, Oh yeah, there was uh uh I went to a match that was hosted by a dentist or something out in California, and it was like Riker. Yep, yep. Too funny. So uh shooting experience. Uh I was looking at your profile here a little bit ago, and man, I think we started shooting right around the same time.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, it's been what close to 10 years now. This might be the 10th season, maybe something like that. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Your um your two days go back to 2018, um, and your your one days I think go back to uh 2016. Yeah. Does that sound right? That does sound right.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

Yeah, Christopher Trussler was putting on matches up in northern Arizona um back in the day. And yeah, I s I shot uh I've been shooting nonstop pretty much since then. Both of these seems like a lifetime ago, doesn't it? It does. It really does. And it, you know, it's hard to even remember what year I started now. I have to look back at like you, like you just did with the websites to figure it out. A lot has changed, a lot's the same.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

No doubt. No doubt. Want to take a brief break in the show to give a shout out to one of our partners, Hoppies, the official gun care of the Precision Rifle Series. Makers of that classic Hoppies number nine. Smell of number nine isn't just solvent, it's tradition. It's early mornings, worn benches, and the quiet satisfaction of a rifle clean right. Go check them out. Primos.com. It looks like you do pretty well in uh Arizona for one day. Quite a few wins on your on your uh debbs and flows.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

This isn't an easy sport.

SPEAKER_03 4:18

No, no, and you never know who's gonna show up and all of a sudden have a day, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

So and you know, every I think one one of the things that's changed in my mind with the sport is there's good shooters from everywhere now. I think when it started, you know, there were kind of hotbeds of it. Obviously, the southeast, and there's always been good shooters in the west, but I feel like you know, growing up in the Midwest, um there's been a ton of growth in that part of the country, I I feel. And there's good shooters everywhere now.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Yeah, I I think Chad and Francis were the two to break that mold, right? Yeah, yep. The Michigan guys for sure. Yep, yep, and it really dominate and you know, and and we man, our shooting season is short relative to everywhere else. Yeah. And Wisconsin has a ton of good guys. We do. We finally got our first match winner last year, pro series match winner, Chet Winkler. Uh but we've yeah, we've sniffed a lot of top fives, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

I shot your match back in uh the I guess it was the last year you had it.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

It was the last year. Yep, 2022. I saw that on uh on the website too, and I'm like, man, I remember Jason being there. We had I think 180 shooters that last year.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah, it was a good turnout.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Yeah, that was a funny.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

You did some unique things, you know, with uh the community. We were talking about a little bit the the brats, the food. Um, it it was uh kind of unique, you know. You went the extra distance, I felt.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah, back in 2022, I don't think too many other folks really did it that way, right? Like where you know we made sure we had registration, and then it was uh hey, stick around, like stay at the range, we're gonna have food, we're gonna have uh probably mus live music and stuff later and all that. And then we did that again Saturday night. Yeah. Um, you know, I had everybody there.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah, I was up by the that wedding venue on Saturday night. Yeah, and I remember their music, I think. It was live music. It was an event. And people attended, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Yeah, and I think I think that's part of the big reason why, right? Like they knew they could get a well, the first couple years of course of fire. I I was too clever, you know, and like generic plain vanilla courses of fire are what people want to shoot, right? Um, but uh the overall experience is what really makes a good match, I think. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah, there's a lot involved, but that's a big uh that's a big piece of it.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Yep. Yeah, which I would say Dan did a really good job this last weekend. Um overall experience. I mean, we we got fed well, like it things things ran actually probably faster than we wanted it, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, I think we talked about that a little bit, you know. Part of uh that type of shooting, that that format, I think that's that's different that I like is you know, when you're squatted with people, usually I guess I call it the bullpen, you know, you're you're hanging around, you have a lot of time to talk. And the way we were driving from sort of area to area, um, and the flow, we really there's usually a shooter or two ahead of us. We we were we were shooting a lot and often that didn't make it you know worse, but that was one thing that that uh I wouldn't even call it a negative, but the flow was fast.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Well our first couple stages though, uh yeah, it we could have used a little more time, we could have used some more time for sure. We yeah, and I guess I guess we'll get into it. We we thought maybe you had an elevation issue, but we weren't sure yet, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:57

I think we figured it out after a while that it it was if it felt like I was having um some zero shifts, you know, and every match that's the first thing we do is zero, we get it figured out, and and it it really did feel like I was going back and forth that it was vertical. Yeah, so we sorted that out. We had a little bit of equipment stuff that we worked through, and I felt like we got to be a pretty well-oiled machine quick by the end of it.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Yeah, yeah. I uh my buy now is you know what that was like stage two after stage two.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I'm like, well, and I think you're getting the same, the same dope on stage one, right? And then we we realized like, okay, there's something going on here, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yeah, my dope's not working out, and we, you know, quick call of tech support and a reset, and like, all right, good to go. Yeah, but it took us a stage, and you know, meanwhile, like I after our first stage, and I think didn't we time out on the first stage? Are we close?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah, maybe not, maybe not on that one. It felt we timed out a couple times for sure. I don't remember if it was that first one. We might have.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Yeah, yeah. And it was like uh it felt like it I don't know. And actually, you and I talked about this right around that time where you know, getting nervous before shooting, you know, like and I don't, you know, we both admitted that like, man, not really anymore. Like, you just go up there and execute. Yeah. Um, when I don't know what to execute on, though, I would I felt like everything was just chaos. I wasn't nervous, but it was like, what is going on? Like, how do we what do we do next?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

You know, um yeah, I think that's I don't know if you and I were talking about it, but that that's one of the differences I feel, you know, if you've been shooting PRS for a while, it it takes a lot to get us uncomfortable. You know, most of the stages are they're there, you've done something close to it, you're not uncomfortable. But in this format, you get uncomfortable a lot. Yep. And you know, the first couple of stages I'd call them pretty normal. The second one was kind of off the cattle gate, right? We've done that a lot.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yep. But when we got on the part of the course of fire where we most of it we were shooting off of that down slope, off camber, down slope, you know. If you're using even when you're using your tripod for glass, it it it's a challenge. If you use it for rear support, you might adjust it for the first spot and have to readjust it for the next because one leg's three feet longer than the other one because of this bulk. It's there's a lot of being uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. In in in the in that format.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Yeah, I mean, it's really unlevel ground, and you know, the to uh the terrain and all of it combined, it just yeah, it it made you have to adapt quickly. Yeah, for sure. What uh so what has been your experience with um and I'll and I'll say NRL Hunter, you know, that that's been the format before this. Um, how much NRL Hunter experience have you actually had? Quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

I think I shot my first NRL Hunter. I want to say uh I went to Washington in maybe 2022. Shot the first one. I was intimidated, is maybe the wrong word, but um yeah, I did, you know, there are parts of the support that I this that I'm still not good at. Finding targets is you know, is hard. This match I think was kind of you know, middle, medium for for finding targets. Wasn't easy, but I've been to certainly harder ones. So um this format is I think made me a lot more well-rounded shooter. I've I've improved in some of those things, but I was kind of looking back and thinking about it, Ken. One of those years, I think I shot six or seven hunters in 2024. Last year, I think I only shot one, and it was the match we had in Arizona, and then I was kind of uh changed jobs, wasn't shooting you know anything as much and wanted to concentrate on those those points for the PRS series more. And then, you know, when um I heard about this, I wanted to be involved looking forward to doing it again, you know.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yeah, how how much uh did you shoot uh teams in AderL Hunter?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

I would say two probably two-thirds the matches. I started out shooting, you know, alone, and I don't even know kind of why. I guess we just one of the guys, Andrew Gabbard, that we traveled with a lot shooting PRS. Um, one of the matches were like, hey, we should try to shoot teams, and we did it, and we just we really had a lot of fun, you know. Yeah, and he's really good at finding targets, so it made for a good team, get along good, work well together. Um and we kind of stuck with that for for a while, you know, chase those points to shoot the the championship in teams, and yeah, but I think you and I found out, you know, we had shot together one time before this, right? In PRS, I think at Cameo. Didn't know each other, know each other, no, and uh I felt like we communicated really well, worked well together, and I I can't speak for you, but I had a great time.

SPEAKER_03 13:15

Yeah, I I did as well. It was awesome. I I want to shoot a lot more team format stuff going forward. Um it it just I I don't know if you know, so I'd gone into this planning to shoot sportsmen, and um I on my sportsman rifle I had a really lightweight MDT bipod, and that's what it requires because my barrel is so heavy and I couldn't run a triple pole. Um and on it was I think Friday morning, I was out helping Dan get some stuff set up and we watched one of the teams roll through a stage, and I immediately was like, whoa, I am like and if I would have gone in with that bipod, um man, I would have really, I would have really sure I would have had to shoot some stuff offhand. Yeah, you know, or a clip in tripod, right? And then and then somehow get some rear support or something like that. And I just I'm like, man, I don't I'm just I don't want to experience my first match that way, you know. And it was like, so I said to Dan, I'm like, man, these guys working together. And it was uh it was James and Cassidy from I think they're from Oregon. Yeah. Um watching those guys execute a stage. And yeah, I did see the stage ahead of time, but I didn't tell you that. I didn't, you know, I didn't like and I didn't look through glass or anything. I just watched them execute together, and I'm like, yeah, that looks like a lot of fun. And I and I said to Dan, I'm like, man, um, I think I want to shoot this as teams. Like, who do I, you know? He's like, Oh, you know what? Jason and Rusty were gonna shoot together, and then Rusty decided to go sportsman. I'm like, I'll shoot with Jason. Yeah, like I, you know, I I knew we were squatted together. I remember from the Barrel Maker, and I've seen your name, you know, uh at matches and finales and stuff, and I'm like, yeah, I think we get along just fine. This would be good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

I landed and turned my phone on and had a text. I'm like, dude, let's do it. And you know, one thing I would have done different, um, a technique we've used in the past, if I'd have known when I left that we're gonna shoot teams, I would have brought another tripod. I I've had some luck. Um, the off-camber stuff's really hard down slope, but I've had a lot of luck with you know setting up three tripods really, one to glass off of and clip into one and use tripod rear, and there's a lot of grass or things to shoot over. It's uh very stable position. And some of the pictures I was going through, I think um Richie Walters, there's a couple pictures of him, you know, he wasn't shooting teams, he was using that technique. And it's pretty thin with tripod rear.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Uh so help me understand that because I I've I've I've shot clipped in, I've hunted clipped in. Um how do you just set the anvil at like light tension so you still get a little bit of control?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, there's a couple different ways. That's one way. Um that outdoorsman head is the the fluid head is kind of pretty robust. It can handle a lot of weight. That's kind of neat too, because if you set it level, you know, you can you can pan and go up and down. You don't have to fight the the cant in the gun. Right. Or you can just put a tack table on the front and you know and a bag is probably the fastest and best, really. It yeah, you know, we talked about the hills a lot and the and the terrain, and and I love the Anvil 30, but it gets it can be really hard to especially if there's multiple engagements, to keep the to keep the cant out of the gun with that.

unknown 16:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

You can fight it. So I think the the bag in the front is tack table up there in a bag seems to work the best.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Yeah. Do you strap the bag to the tack table so you don't lose it? I don't. It's probably a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

For a while I did have a bag that I strapped that I would glass on. I've switched on with what I glass off of, but I I have done that in the past.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking on we had one stage that was off camber or left to right, and I think it was right when I finished shooting. I was using my uh I we had the triple pull out. I think it was the two position glassing stage. Yeah. Uh right after the turkeys out of the blind. And I let my tripod, I let go of the tripod for a second and it tipped to the right downhill. Yeah. And it broke my RS cinch off. You know?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

And we shot the mention. Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Well, I was gonna say, I can imagine, like, I mean, that like I was holding on to the dang thing, and then went to readjust, and I'm like, well, it's gone, you know. And yeah, I would lose a bag in a heartbeat. I would my sh, you know, I don't have good control of all my gear. For sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

And and you mentioned shooting out of the blind, and we used our triple coal on the blind, right? And I think we were pretty much like in all the way, and so we went from that, and like we mentioned earlier, there wasn't a lot of weight, and um, so I had my bipod kind of a normal height, but it was in in, and I set my rifle down on the ground, and it was so steep the rifle took over. We were struggling on that much from when we put our gear down.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Yeah, for sure. That was the same stage, that's right. Man, um, we'll kind of bounce around here. I want to know a hunting experience. Have you typically done a lot of hunting?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yeah, I not not a lot of hunting, but yeah, not like rusty. Hunting in the Midwest is a lot of for deer, it's it's shotgun only, you know. Until I I mean, now that I've lived in Arizona, I think they've changed just some straight wall cartridges, but mostly shotgun. And it was, you know, stand hunting and drives. Um, I grew up in the northeast part of the state along the Mississippi River, so I really liked to waterfowl. We had in this part of the state I was in, we had pheasants, but it wasn't like really great um pheasant country. But yeah, I I liked to hunt and did quite a bit of it. When I moved to Arizona, you know, I was still really into hunting. It harder to get tags. Drew, drew, you know, a few tags. I think it was 2001. I drew a bull tag and um was in Unit 7, which is kind of by Flagstaff, and got a, you know, nice is relative to everyone, but it was a six by six bull. A lot of people call it small. Um, but then I got you know, I've I've always been a distrust you call it as well. I've always I've always been into guns and uh interested in shooting, kind of I guess maybe the math of it was was part of it. I did a lot of reading online, was intrigued with you know the uh the equipment, and the first gun I built was uh a seven psalm.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Had it on a I guess it was like a stiller action and the T2 stock from from manners and you know, because the goal was to shoot a thousand, right? So taught myself how to reload, you know. I didn't know I didn't didn't have people to teach me, so I taught myself how to do that, went out, had the math, kind of guessed at the speed, didn't even have to chronograph, set a target out, and you know, pulled the trigger and hit it. It's like the equipment was was so good. But yeah, there were some people putting on matches in northern northern Arizona then that they weren't really part of like any series. Uh it was in a rock quarry, and I took that rifle to my to my very first match, and it was a top loader, you know, a caliber that recoiled way too much. I had a I don't know, some kind of a vortex scope on it. It wasn't a razor and fell in love with it. Got last place, you know, but was was absolutely hooked. And I went and built a gun right after that. Went to the gunsmith, and it's like I I need a rifle, and I've been shooting ever since then.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

That's that is why that uh you basically explained my start in the sport and all that too. I finished last place in my first match, I was shooting a Remington 700 308.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Uh with a loose scope base, which prevented me from hitting any well, I hit four targets out of 90 or something like that. Yeah. And I figured it out when we were on a prone stage, and it was like it was a single target engagement, or maybe it was just a couple, but I was like, okay, that one went left. I go to the next one, that one's right. That one's left, that one's right. What is happening? Like you know, and and by a half mil, you know, it wasn't it wasn't even close. But um yeah, and then right after that that was the one and only uh match at Rifle Saw. And then got something, you know. Yeah, for this right after that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

I kind of went on a tangent um and didn't really answer your question. So that's how I started hunting. But then when I got into competitive shooting, you know, I I would still enjoy it, but I I don't hunt anymore. I just travel around, shoot matches.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

I I maybe this is controversial say here. I mean, probably not, because you know, know your audience, and we're all, you know, probably all of us got into this because of hunting in one form or fashion or whatever. But um I outside of a few experiences that I've had, like pursuing animals, you know, glassing and then getting after it, and you know, that sort of adventure, um, you know, I guess Midwest hunting versus going to shoot a match. I'm gonna shoot a match all the day. Yeah. Like sitting freezing my butt off in a in a deer blind, waiting for the one to walk past. That's you know, it would be chance if it's not the five-do that I see every day at 9 a.m. You know? Like, I would much rather shoot a match. You know.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Um I'd like to go when friends draw tags, you know. I I enjoyed being there, the process, you know, all of it. I just it's I don't spend my time doing it right now. Maybe that'll change. I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Yeah. Yeah, I I went out to South Dakota this winter and and uh hunted prairie dog or uh coyotes while we were out there. And um I really loved that experience. I think you know, being away from home and you know, being with buddies and and you know, pursuing animals. That was a heck of a lot of fun when um I've done that out in Idaho with Seth Seth Howard, um mule deer hunted out there, you know, for a few days. I've I've been to Alaska with John Pinch, and that was an amazing trip. Loved it. Um better than any you know match I've ever been to, but like those are so few and far between. Like um but I really yeah, I mean, if it's shooting steel and hearing steel ring, like that's gonna love it. You know.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

I call it the Pavlov dog response. That's what when you hear steel ring. It works on me.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

It works on me.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

I think a lot of us.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

Yep. I want to take a brief break in the show to give a shout-out to one of our partners, Hoppies, the official gun care of the Precision Rifle Series. Makers of that classic Hoppies number nine. The smell of number nine isn't just solvent, it's tradition. It's early mornings, worn benches, and the quiet satisfaction of a rifle cleaned right. Go check them out. Primos.com. So uh let's go back to the match this weekend. Um Dan Dan Bernicchini's MDT Hunter Challenge. What was what was your favorite overall stage from the weekend?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

That's a good question. What how many did we clean? Thir three or four.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

And most of them were in a row, right? Yeah. I I felt like once we got into a rhythm, like we were really doing well.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

There wasn't a bad stage. There were some difficult ones. I think one that we cleaned, and um you know, most of them were animal targets, but the one where we had uh four circles and squares off of the the T-post, that that was fun. I I enjoyed that one. Um I think that's my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

That just like I can't I I think going into it, I think we both had the confidence that like we can do this stage. Yeah, you know, like it's near to far, far to near. It's one, two, three, four, four, three, two, one. So eight, eight engagements. Um, and I think that you know, it felt like kind of like a PRS stage. Yeah, it had a feel to that.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

The other one I liked, and you know, the PRS part of it, we ended up we're getting close to timing out. Was that were they Bobcats? Where there was the one down low and the one on the top of kind of that that point. You know, we were running close on we were running close on time. Right. And yeah, I ended up doing really well on it.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

We did, yeah. Um, and I think I know what happened there. I think I missed one shot and you missed one shot. I think you sailed one over top.

unknown 26:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

That was right when we were trying to try to figure out your dope. Yes. Um, but being team format, um, we were able to see it together, identify it like a hold bottom of target, send the next one, or take two tenths out. Um that was the stage though. Uh I didn't find so we were getting set up. Um, and I guess let's go back a little bit and talk about our strategy. This being my first time, and I knew that my biggest challenge was going to be finding targets. And it was like, Jason, you go right over the set at the sighting post, and you're, you know, you you you've done this, you'll have better opportunity of finding targets than I will. And and that one, I didn't find either one of them. You had to guide me in on both of them, you know. And even then, I was like, what? I I oh oh, the different color grass or on top of the hill, or whatever it was. Um I was the first shooter, and I think why did we decide that?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

I don't remember why we decided that off that we went back and forth on that. I think there's kind of maybe some positives and and negatives to both. Um I think I I think ultimately uh and this is kind of for me too, with because the the this format finding the targets is hard. And then the other thing that's the is tough is finding the targets when you're on the when you're on the gun. You know, you're standing with your binoculars and you go lay down, your you know, your field of view changes, everything changes. Yeah I felt like maybe um the best thing would be, you know, to help you with that, like to get to get you on target. I think we also talked about wind. I I felt pretty comfortable with with first round wind calls was another reason why we did that. And when we started off, I think we were like, well, let's just see how it how it works out. And if we want to change, we can, but we we stuck with it for two days.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

Yeah, yeah, and it it worked, I guess in my opinion, it worked really well. There was a couple moments where I wish you would have been left a little bit more time, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, but I don't feel like we were inefficient or you know, we could I feel like there were, and we talked some about that. Uh, you know, Rusty was coming pretty close to timing out on some of the stages. Like that there were some stages that were that were tight. And so with the multiple glassing points, you know, some of the some of the new kind of features in this match, uh I think that was part of the feeling out process was fit figuring out the the time limit for teams. So right. Um, we didn't time out a ton, but uh, but some of those stages would have been hard to get through. No, because we found targets fast, right? We had our yeah, we had our targets fast, we had our dope ready, and still we were we were running out of time a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah. You know, the one of the stages I'm gonna talk about too, uh, prairie dogs, and there was uh where the sighting post was, and I at this point, I think we were trying to share the sighting post yet, right? We hadn't dedicated a like Jason, you're right over top, I'll go in front or behind, or you know, and I'll figure out where our limits are. But we had it was near to far prairie dogs, and the first two I could see, I could see black, I can't see long range to save my life, but looking straight out, I'm like, I see two black spots or three black spots, maybe, and one of them was a bear for for for another stage. But I'm like, okay, those have to be the first two. And then we we sort of struggled to find three and four, which were way at the extent of the limits, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Um that was our first stage, now that I'm thinking about it. That was our first stage, wasn't it? Was that really? I think so. Right off of the road. I think that was our first stage. And target three was clear off to the right. We had one, two right away.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

We found I think that was stage three or four for some reason. Yeah, it could have been. I think it was yeah, uh yeah. Anyway, well, anyways. Um, but what I I think that's one of the ones I'm most proud of for our teamwork because we found one and two together right away. Yep. We're struggling to find three and four. I found the left target and ranged it. I said to the RO, is that target three? No, it's not. Like, oh, so we have one, two, and four. Oh no. And and I remember we kept looking for a couple seconds there, and I'm like, Jason, I'm gonna get ready and I'm gonna start engaging one and two. Uh, keep looking, you know, and I but I I felt like that was one of those positions where uh because we're mostly prone, it what it was prone prone, but it wasn't like a big downhill slope or anything. And I'm like, I'll be able to see where my, you know, it's like 300 yards with 6'5 Creed, prone. Like I'll with a good backstop. It's against the hill. I'm like, I'll see where this goes. I'll be able to make a correction. But I think I went one, two, and right when I took that second shot, you're like, I found target three, you know? And then I zoom out the scope, pan way over to the side. You got me on target. Like, you know, what's your dope on this, Jason? That'll be close enough. Yeah, with prairie dog, we were close enough. We were. Yep. I think we missed that target though. We I think I went, I think I went right left on it. But the dope was yeah, yeah. That would that that target was hard to hit. It was, yeah. Yeah, and the trying to think how the wind was coming in, but a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

We needed we needed to hold, we needed to hold left.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

We did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

And then I corrected and and still missed.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

And I yeah, I think your correction would have been straight up. I think is what it would have been. I think I think so, yeah. Yeah.

unknown 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Just wild. Um, you know, one of the one of the things that I I think I enjoyed most about running teams. Well, one, we were coincidentally, we were running 6-5 greed, very similar bullet, very similar data, right? Yeah. Um, but being able to spot for each other, yeah, that's huge. It is, yeah. I and I think that's the part that I really, really enjoyed is like, um, even when you're shooting, like, I have a job to do, right? Um, no, I didn't do that job effectively every time. I mean, there was that one you shot, oh, we we misranged it. You shot under the target, but we were just coming off of like, man, you've been missing high and everything. And I saw it. I'm like, I think it's gotta be high. And you're like, yep, that's kind of what I saw too.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

And then you missed lower, and you're like, and I thought I missed on wind too. And that was an interesting target because um talking to the RO afterwards, I believe there was a branch somewhere between because we misranged it, it it hit something closer, so it wouldn't have made sense that we weren't, you know, hit and steel and the bank behind it.

SPEAKER_03 33:26

And yeah, it was kind of funny, like a bank in front of it, a bank behind it, where it was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah. And these new vortex binoculars are amazing. You could hit steel on all of them, but that was one where there was a branch probably close to the target that I don't think we could see, and it gave us a false reading. I think that's probably the only one we had.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

That's the only missed range we had, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and I I felt terrible as a spotter. I'm like, I'm right behind you, and I watched bullet trace. I'm like, okay, that's yeah, I think it was a little bit to the right, but I'm like, man, I should hit. And it didn't. I'm like, okay, well, you've been shooting over top of targets when we've had problems.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

So I gotta say it's over topics.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Right, right. You know, now and then I can replay that shot in my head, and I'm like, yeah, obviously it was low right, you know, and then you made a a correction, you went left and low, and then that one, like, oh yeah, you were left and low. Like, dang it.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

You know, that one I think didn't I pout for a while after that stage?

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Yeah, I think we yeah, we both both had our tail between our legs for a little while.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

That one was kind of frustrating because I think we it felt like a pretty cleanable stage. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yeah, I mean we I I think I think we had for the majority really good win calls, you know. It feels like it.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

I I mean uh the only one I remember that we that we missed missed was it's at the last stage of day one. They were it was a vital target, right? And I'm like, I think it's gonna be three quarters. And and most of the other shooters we found out that was the right call. We just we were in places where we're using the wind function on those binoculars, and we go down slope, you couldn't really feel it, you couldn't see Mirage. And it's like, well, let's try that. And it turned out just it just died on us. But yeah, I think most of our other, I think almost all of our other ones, we were we were first round impacts.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yep, yeah, right out of money, or at least an excellent first round win caught. Yep, yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

And you were shooting great, you were hitting what you were shooting at.

SPEAKER_03 35:38

I had a few moments, you know, but man, I was challenged. The some of those, like just getting yeah, the downhill slope, like, okay, well, I need more bipod. Oh, I'm sliding down, I'm trying to like lean back and just look, but yeah, it there was a lot of shots I took that there's zero if I didn't have a spotter or somebody you know partner, I wouldn't have taken that shot. But I saw most of my most of my uh my shots that I took. I think I saw all of them on day one. Day two, I got a little bit sloppy.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

But yeah, there was a couple of those. I was talking to Rusty afterwards about one of them in particular where we were using a tripod in the back and it was it was steep, but it you know, I don't even think I had the gun on my shoulder. You were fighting so many things, it's like you you were you were really solid and stable. Yep, but I'm like, it was there something different that I could have done? Like, how how do you some of them there's just not a good way to do it?

SPEAKER_03 36:40

No, no, but I mean having that having that partner behind you where you go, is it still half a mil? Yeah, right. Well, I'm I'm gonna squeeze a good shot here. Please see where it goes. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

Because if you would have missed, you you weren't gonna see that to make a good correction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:59

So so let's talk about uh weapon systems for this. Um we we both shot six five creeds. I think we were both right around 13 pounds, maybe a touchover.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

I was a little more because um I'm used to making like that 16 pound mark.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

And so I was you know 15 something. I ended up adding one of the the new weed tripod bags to mine because I had some some weight to add. So I'm a little bit heavier, but I have that carbon fiber, you know, barrel on it. And you you you bring up a good question. I've been pondering it for a while, and I don't think we're gonna know the answer for a while. But um Jordan on our squad, right, was shooting uh a heavy gun in six arc. So he was what six points behind to start, but he shot lights out. He it's gonna be interesting 25th. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be interesting to see kind of what the magic uh number is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

I well, I can I can tell you if I'm shooting solo, yeah, I'm I'm probably I'm I'm gonna come in with just shy of 13 pounds, 6'5 Green More. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. Um, but if I'm shooting teams, I and I just happen to have this out from uh another podcast I was doing, but this is the the new ultralight from Impact in a Magnum Boltface. Um yeah, I mean that like I'm gonna be a something magnum. Yeah you know, maybe a seven six five PRC. Yeah. You know, a necked up six five, like and that's what Scott and Ryan were running, right? They were running six five PCs. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I I mean if if if you got somebody you can trust on glass, you know, on your team, and you're kind of both shooting the same thing, like I think uh a uh a lightweight cannon, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting though with the the Magnum stuff. It was it was a PRS match, and I don't know, it might have been 17 or 18. It was in Arizona, and it was kind of a uh an ELR style PRS match, right? And people brought 300 mags and you know, sevens and and all kinds of stuff. And I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure if you look back, I think Jerry Karloff won that match for the six five six five Krieg model. So my point is I don't know if you can really you know the diminishing returns with the recoil and stuff, I don't I I don't well I don't know. But if you got a partner looking over your shoulder the whole time that's true that and maybe that maybe that does make the difference. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

If I had to spot my own though, like yeah, I think that's where I think you're 6'5 creed, you know, shoot heavy bullets pretty close to 26, 2650, you know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's hard to beat. It is, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, for a field style match, like and to see see where your bullet goes, you know, like uh in tall grass or you know, more grass, you know, you could see more than a six millimeter for sure. For sure or two two three.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

We could see a little bit. It was we had some grass and you know, a little bit of rain, a little bit of moisture. There wasn't a lot of um indication out there with with dust, but you know, we saw we saw most of them, but it was not easy.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

No, no. But can you imagine? Man, I I think back to I think it was 2019 at the PRS finale. Um, and that's when like really the sixes came in, and everybody's shooting a six, and and um that was at KM. Shannon, um, I was in RO. Shannon put me on, I think it was stage 18, which used to be kind it's you know, it's all the way at the end, uh far right of his range. And it used to be kind of this it was really unmanicured hill that you shot off of. Now, now he's got, of course, you know, the whole setup. He's you can drive right up to it, and there's concrete and overhangs, yada yada. Um, but there was a ton of mirage. And I think he, you know, we had a Swarovski you know spotter and all that. And he's like, Yep, I'm gonna put you out. That's gonna be a difficult stage. It's uh I want to say it was a TYL at a thousand yards. And um, he's like, You're you know, call call it good. And first thing in the morning with the sun behind us, six mils, no problem. Like then we got into early afternoon, and it's like, oh, it's getting miragey. It's getting really hard to spot these, and the you know, the hit indicators aren't there. And then um it was probably like 2 30 in the afternoon. Um uh man, why I can't um oh, his name is escaping me. Um I uh whatever, but he showed up with a 6-5 PRC. And I I mean I I felt like I could watch Trace from his muscles. All the way. All the way down. Yeah. All the way down. Yeah, like dude.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Instantaneously you knew you were looking at something different.

SPEAKER_03 42:28

A hundred percent, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that uh I mean there's some advantages there too. Like if you're gonna if you're gonna play this game, um, you know, at uh you know, at a range that's gonna have Mirage, you know, that type of thing, which like Arena. Uh Arena is uh one of the the venues we're talking to about hosting something like this. Like man, having a big ass cannon that your partner can see.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Every yeah, every little bit of help that you can get, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what's uh uh we talked about your rifle and you have that light carbon barrel on there. Um and I think I think you said you had like 2500 plus pounds on there.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

I I I don't want to have that barrel on the next time I shoot a match. Yep. And you know, I it's about the time for it to come off anyway. And I don't know exactly what was going on, and it doesn't really matter if you lose your confidence, you know. Uh right. But I I think I'm definitely not, and I talked to a lot of guys that weekend and some after. I I think I'm and I was listening to one of the earlier podcasts with you and Austin, and I think my next barrel I want to do uh steel CRB with the spiral flute is I think what I'm gonna go with.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

So I got I got one you gotta see. Hold on a sec. This actually um it's a chambered and twenty five pieces. Is that the LRI? Yeah that did that. Yeah, I mean this. This this is a 26 inch um 1200 straight. Okay. Right. I I actually had it seracoated before. Um and then had, I mean, this thing hammered. It's a 25 PRC. Um, it went from, I mean, uh, a 26 inch one two straight is really heavy, right? Yeah. Um, man, this thing is like, I think the barrel came down to like less than four pounds. Is that right? Um, and it was like nine. Um, and it still hammers. So, you know, if heavy flooding or that hex murder murder horner, I think is what uh LRI calls it. Um I know there's a couple other guys uh here in the Midwest that do it too, but I think that's the ticket. Because you can get a really heavy, rigid, lightweight, uh, rigid barrel, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Ryan was saying that too. I think he had an M24 that he started with that was a hammer, had it fluted, and it still shot the same. I I think that'll be hard to beat.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And then you know, if you don't run your 6'5 uh Creed all that hard, like that thing should live a long, healthy life.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And we don't shoot as many rounds in this, you know. True. You're not shooting as many and not as many rounds in a string. So they they should last a while.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Yeah, I didn't even consider that, but I mean 3,000 plus is probably, you know.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

Um, so what's uh what's the plan for this next year? Are we are we gonna shoot some more pursuit matches together, you think?

SPEAKER_01 45:42

I think we should.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

I think we should. I think we should have um change a couple things, but it'd be nice to have this exact same dope.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

Yeah, well, I would shoot the same bullet. Yep. Yeah, same bullet as you, same velocity, get it all dialed in.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

And even though we were close, I I think um that would that would help a little bit. I don't think there's too many things to change. Outside of that, yeah. Yeah, I'd but I would definitely do it again.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Yeah, it was a good time, man. And I what's funny too is I I started thinking, I'm like, wow, Jason and I are really working well together. And and and and I I put that on, like, I actually communicated well. I don't communicate well in all aspects of my of life and all that. I don't, uh, you know. Uh but I'm like, could I do this with Missy? No, I think I think I would communicate in a way that um uh it would be ineffective as a team. Um, you know, my my buddy Josh, that's also my gunsmith, I think he and I would have a lot of friction. But his wife Megan, who works for us, like her and I communicate really well.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Interesting how that works. But you mentioned that one stage. You know, it's we we didn't talk about how we were gonna communicate, but it it worked and it kind of worked on the fly. So I think sometimes it just clicks and sometimes it doesn't. Yep. For whatever reason. I'm sure you could train through it and get better at it, but um worked pretty well for us.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Man, I hope uh I hope we do get a chance to shoot uh some more team stuff this year. Um the pursuit, I guess a little update on that. We've been talking to a bunch of match directors. We have uh like an application that we've been sending out. We have um 15 of those already um returned to us. Right. Um we have probably another 15 to go, and I think we'll have uh 20 to 25 match season uh starting this August. That's awesome. So um I'm not I didn't draw any tags this year. I'm uh no plans of any extraordinary hunting this fall or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

But when baseball's over, you're ready to hit it hard again.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

I I am, I am. You know, and I now that we were just talking about weapon systems and barrels and stuff like that, I should probably get another 6-5 Creedmore barrel heavy footed and ready to ready to go for this. But um, yeah, so when July hits, hopefully you and I can uh can find uh a match to sign up for together and shoot teams.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Yeah, let's do it. I'll I'll obviously travel. I'll get in there and win whatever it takes. The things I like about this sport is shooting in you know some different spots, some pretty places. It's uh that's one of the things that's nice about it. There's a lot of things that are good about it, but that's one of them.

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Yep. Yeah, and this um this type of course of fire really lends itself to being you know a neak outdoor adventure space, right? It's gonna be different and cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Heck yeah. Right on. Jason, I appreciate your time, man. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for coming. Yeah, have a great weekend, bud. And we'll um maybe we'll have to do a recap here in six months and yeah, see uh see how we've developed as a team, dude. I look, I look forward to it. Have a great weekend, Ken. You too.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Thanks, Jason.

SPEAKER_03 49:07

Take care, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Bye.