Was Morgun King Born A Good Shooter?

In this episode, we sit down with 2025 Golden Bullet winner Morgan King to discuss his incredible journey from rodeo, hunting, and small-town shooting to becoming one of the top competitors in Precision Rifle Series competition.

Morgan shares stories from his childhood growing up around cattle ranches, horses, hunting, and rodeo, including the moment a 300-yard shot on his first deer sparked an obsession with long-range shooting.

We discuss:

• Growing up in the rodeo world
• Learning long-range shooting before modern PRS
• Building skills through thousands of rounds of practice
• Shooting in extreme wind conditions
• The evolution of his equipment and reloading process
• Traveling the country while balancing work and competition
• The importance of local matches and match experience
• How to improve faster in PRS
• Reading wind and making better decisions under pressure
• Winning the 2025 Golden Bullet

This conversation is packed with stories, lessons, and practical advice from one of the hardest-working competitors in the sport. Whether you're a new shooter or a seasoned competitor, there's something here for anyone looking to improve behind the rifle.

#PRS #PrecisionRifle #MorganKing #GoldenBullet #LongRangeShooting #PrecisionRifleSeries #Reloading #ShootingSports

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome. We got a long episode for you tonight. Uh, we're gonna hear Morgan's entire life story from riding sheep at three years old all the way to winning a golden bullet in 2025.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

And I'm gonna tell you how to shoot and wind and why it might be a good idea to have a good tripod around. And then we're gonna talk about the vision for the future of this sport.

SPEAKER_05 0:19

Love it. Hang in there. We got a long one. You're ready. Welcome back to the PRS podcast here with Morgan King, a 2025 Golden Bullet winner. Welcome to the show, buddy. How's it going? It's good, man. This is awesome. Uh anytime I get to talk to a golden bullet winner, uh as of yourself, this is awesome, man. How uh how you been lately?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Pretty good. Yeah, just uh same old thing, just a different day, really.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Now down in Texas, how long if you look back in uh actually let's let's go all the way back. Let's go all the way back. Where did you grow up? And then where'd you move to? Because you're you've been all over the country too.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, I kind of been everywhere. Uh well, I was born in Florida. Um, I was only there for about six days, so I don't obviously, and that's the only time I've really been there.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Uh born on vacation? Pretty much. Okay. No. My parents, my dad actually wrote uh feed program for a big cattle ranch there. Okay. Um he worked there for a couple years, and so I guess I was I spent nine months, six days, or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Sure. So uh and then they moved back to Utah. My dad finished up his master's program um there, and then after that, my dad got a job um working on a another cattle ranch in Oklahoma. And then I lived there for six years. And and after that, then I moved back to Utah and I lived there for pretty much my whole life or most of it. Okay. And then and then uh after that, uh well, I mean, and then in high school, you know, like I rodeoed most of the time, right? I I grew up doing that around horses. Because after my dad, about you know, six years in Oklahoma working on cows and somebody else's cows, he's like, There ain't money in cows, and I want my kids to be able to rodeo and be able to afford it. So he went back, moved back to Utah and started an HVAC company. And kind of a big right turn. Yeah. And uh so that's what he did ever since. But it but it gave us a good life and be able to be in the rodeo world. Yeah. Um and so uh, because he grew up rodeoing and traveling a lot to look rodeos, and so and then we kind of just followed suit.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Uh got it.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

I it felt like you know, I mean, we had a choice. I mean, I definitely chose it, but uh, you know, it's you do what your parents do a little bit, you know, and and so I always grew up dreaming to be a cowboy, and so it's just the way uh world and turns out my dad hunted a lot too, just growing up in the west, sure, and uh being around that lifestyle we hunted, and that's something this we've done for eons. And so uh after I turned 14 because you had to be 14 when I when I turned that's how old you had to be to be able to kill a deer. Got it. And so I remember killing my first deer, and uh well, so I have my mom's 243, which was my great grandma's gun. And it's yeah, I think is it a Savage? You know those uh lever actions, the Savage Model, is it three? Something like that. Could be and it's they're kind of a cool gun, it's a rotary magazine, and she had a straight four power on it. Yeah, it was a Leopold straight four from like the mid-60s, and the and the gun and scope, they zeroed it. It's been zeroed one time, and then forever. I'm telling you, we've my mom has killed more deer with that thing. My mom hunts a lot, yep. Uh uh, probably more than my dad ever has. And uh so then I killed my first deer, everybody killed their first deer with that thing, and uh it shot good, it still shoots good. Like if you gotta kill something, you pull that thing out, it's gonna be on.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

And so I'm I'm going over the I remember we rode over this ridge because we always hunted a horseback, and then I I jump off my horse and I see this buck, and it's like a nice little four-point, and I was all excited, and I didn't know how far across this little canyon it was. And so I'm ready and I get up, I'm kneeled down, and I I get on it, and my dad goes, Bear hold, top of his back. Why? That was very interesting. So I held the top of his back, pulled trigger, and then I just remember thinking, Well, how far is that? And then my dad's like, Oh, probably about 300 yards, I don't know. And it turns out it is 300 yards, like every range. And uh and I'm like, How the heck, how'd you know that? And he's like, I don't know, just shot stuff. Just you just kind of get used to it. Like, okay, that's pretty cool. But I dropped him and I remember thinking, like, that there's gotta be a wet better way of doing this. This is stupid. Like, we don't know how far that was. What if it was farther? What if it was closer? Yeah, you know, like I guess if it's closer, whatever, but yeah, if it's farther, and I shoot underneath him or whatever. And so I remember that that's like stuck in my mind still to this day. You were 14. Yeah, I was 14. 14. First deer, and I'm like, yeah, this is dumb.

SPEAKER_05 5:54

So uh, there's more to shooting and holding top of that.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 5:59

Yep. Let's take a brief break in the show to give a shout out to one of our partners, Leo Photo, official tripod of the precision rifle series. When a stage calls for a stable position and a solid support system, more and more competitors are changing to Leophoto to provide the stability shooters need for glassing, building positions, and making precise shots under pressure. From match A to backcountry adventures, they're designed to perform when it matters most. Go check them out. Leophoto USA.com.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

I remember my grandpa, he reloaded a little bit, and his reloading is a little different than our reloading.

SPEAKER_05 6:32

Is it like is it any different than Austin Bushman's reloading?

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

It's probably explicit. It's primitive.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

No, no, no, no. Bushman Bushman can say whatever he wants. Bushman makes good ammo.

SPEAKER_05 6:45

He does, but he's using really antiquated equipment and no problem. Yeah, no problem. I know. It's won two world championships.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Listen, I I I I freaking I will be the first one to tell you you make good ammo on limited equipment because I did it for a long time. Like, sure. I I was balling on a budget for a good long time playing this game. Yep. I don't know. It wasn't until later on that I got a lot of good equipment, right?

SPEAKER_05 7:11

Yep, the right stuff.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, and even still, like people wouldn't look at my reloading setup and be like, oh, really?

SPEAKER_05 7:18

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

You know, yeah, yeah, like really, it's not a zero. Yeah, it's not a zero press.

SPEAKER_05 7:24

Like they're nice, it's not necessary.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

No, yeah, it's the farthest thing from necessary. And uh but yeah, like you still so my grandpa my great-grandpa's Marlowe, and anyway, he he uh they always call him Marlo loads, like you'll you would get his reloads, and they're still out, they're still out in the wild today. Seriously. Uh like in my family, yeah, you'll get reloads from him. He he probably big reloaded them when I was, you know, yeah, yeah, before I was born. So maybe 35, 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

But like he loaded a bunch of rounds, and so they'll have them, and and my cousins will be it'll cheap out and they'll decide, oh, I'll just shoot some Marlow loads. But the trouble with that is you don't know what you're getting. Like every now and again, it ain't gonna go off. Yep, yep. And you'd be like, oh dang it, and then they'll just rack another way and shoot again. Like, and then sometimes you'll just be like, something's different about that round, and you just don't know. Like I ain't never shot one and I don't have a plan on, but like he he just reloaded a little different than the rest of us. But sometimes them primers just eh, and it wasn't that he wasn't putting powder in them or anything. You shake them, they all got powder in there, but just like that stuff might have been in a coffee can that somebody canned, like they they canned it and they sealed it, you know, just like a regular coffee can. That powder could have been from before World War II, who knows where it came from.

SPEAKER_05 8:49

Man, I bought powder one time that literally came in a styrofoam like cup, like a white styrofoam Dixie cup that some yeah, it was at a gun store, and a guy broke down an eight-pounder and uh four two-pound things that he put in a yeah, like a 24-ounce white styrofoam cup with tape on it. Like, I need Bargain.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

I still have some cans from him because my my grandpa had a bunch of them, and when he passed away, I got a lot of his reloading equipment and stuff. Yeah, and uh I got cans of them that are like sealed up, you know, and they got with a sharpie marker written on what they are.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

What they are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Like I'll I'll probably when I when I get uh a spot, I'll probably put a shelf up and have like all of these like set up, you know, because it's kind of cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you just never know like on that type of stuff. But my grandpa, he was a step above, but it was all about making the gun go boom. Yep. That was it. So he had one of those little thrower things, and you know, he'd oh yeah, he'd have all these aught six rounds, and he'd like set them all up and then just put bullets in them, and they went boom, you know, and and I remember thinking, because I I got a 223 when I was like uh on 15, something like that. And uh I remember we were going through like this gun show, and my dad's like, or he's like, You want we need to get you a scope for that gun. And and uh and I had like thought like I had done some research on who knows where on like because as soon, like I said, 14, I'm like, there's gotta be a better way. So yeah, I I hit the search bar and was like, How do they do this? And then you got history channel, like you talk about like Jim uh Gillilin, you know, Mitch's husband. Yep, you know, like I like first time I met that guy, I was like, Oh, I know this guy. Like uh I see I seen your special on the Insta channel.

SPEAKER_05 10:42

Yeah, yeah. 308, like 1800 yards, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Yep, and him talking about it and stuff, and I was like, Oh yeah, this is like meeting a celebrity, like up and so you know, hearing all those stories, and then my grandpa's like, Hey, you need to learn to reload. Because I'm like, there's gotta be because I shot the crap out of that 223, and I and like I said, when we was at the gun show, I was like, I want to scope with turrets, so it was a piece of crap, but uh still dial it, yeah. Yeah, you can still dial it. I don't it wasn't very good, but I should I did shoot some stuff a long way with that thing. I remember so I we didn't have a very good rangefinder, but I had a four-wheeler with an odometer. And then and we lived right like it was a mile to the so there was nothing between my house and the salt lake when I was a kid. Yep. And there's a dike because that that lake used to back in the day, it would flood sometimes and you know go up so they put a dike bar. No, well it well, every now and again they they don't like tell you, but it's come up to the dike before. Okay. Yeah, like about five, six years ago, it did come up the dike. They they kind of keep it the level it is. Like what people don't realize there. This side note, we're watering grass in a high desert, like right, everything should be dry-lotted there.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

So as the population grows in that valley and we keep we keep uh water and freaking green grass in a high desert, to me, it's just asinine, but whatever.

SPEAKER_05 12:08

That's beyond drink it, don't water your grass.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yep. Yeah, like it doesn't make no sense. Like, water some crops, water a field, but your lawn, put gravel in, yeah, and be done. Yeah, it's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Um, but anyway, there's nothing between us and the lake, and I go out there on that dike, they run the power lines too. And so you have these power poles or so long. So I drive down this thing with my odometer, because I'm gonna make a thousand-yard shot. And so I'm driving down there and I'm like going along here, and there was one of those, there's old, is a it's like a digger, but it's not a really a digger. But you would it would scrape along, you would pull it behind a tractor or a team. Yeah, but it was actually made for a team of horses, and you would you would put it behind it and you would pull it, and then it would scoop up dirt, and then you could flip it back up over and then dump whatever out. Well, I see this thing as an opportunity because it's about I don't know, 36 inches wide, size. About the same tall. The tongue made would stand it up perfect. I'm like, this is great. I heard I heard you can shoot steel. So uh, well, it is mild though. I found that out.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

Yeah, even at a thousand.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Uh yeah, but uh, so I take it down there. I got 55 grain wolf steel case in them. So I bought a bunch of that. Yeah. And I got this piece of crap scope that you could dial turrets. I got a Remington VTR 223, and and then I it's kind of a nice rifle.

SPEAKER_05 13:38

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I mean, that's it, that's it. Decent rifle. Yeah, that's decent. Yeah, you can get it. It was a good rifle. Yep. The the scope, not decent, yeah, but it, but it could do some stuff. And uh I go out, I go down there and I I drive along and I'm like, I I'm think trying to figure out how far it is. I'm like, I gotta get six tenths of a level.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Six tenths, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

So I'm like driving along and I'm trying to figure out how far each of these poles are, and it was four pole lengths. So I'm like, okay. So they were they were like, those poles were a long ways apart. And that 250 yards.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yep. I s I set her out, and then I drive back down the deal, and I had a I had a buddy with me, and I'm like, I'm gonna shoot this thing. And I had my dad, my dad had an old Pentax straight powers uh when we had it. I had it sitting on a p bag of rice on a on three sticks that I had tied together. And I'm like, all right, we're gonna we're gonna shoot this thing. And I had Googled about what you should get it, and I dial up there, dial up, I pull the trigger on this thing, and I don't even like come close, but I saw some dust. You did so so I'm like, okay, all right, we're in, we're we're getting close. So I start dialing up more, pull the trigger, getting closer. Dial up more a little more, I dial some wind on there, pull trigger, and I think about five shots in, I hit the scene. And I I mean, I was pumped. That's where it all started. Yeah, that was it. I hear D and then I and I'm like, dude, you gotta do this. So I I let him lay down between the two of us. We shot that thing like nine times out of the 20 rounds, and you we were we were excited. Like so, and then ever since then, it's just been a slow progression from that day to how to winning golden bullets. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_05 15:34

So I gotta ask, so you you went into rodeo, right? Yeah. So this is at age 15, you're using this 223, right? Yeah. Shooting shooting a thousand yards. And then how long did you actually rodeo for?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Till I got into vet school, so like 27 years old.

SPEAKER_05 15:53

So oh, from what from basically 15 to 27?

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Oh man, I rodeoed since I was like I started when I was eight doing rodeos, or maybe maybe no before then. I mean, I I guess I I started I rode sheep anywhere you could ride one. Okay. Yeah and then uh I started that at uh well it's probably three. Okay. I just put my boy on a on a sheep last night at at the Weatherford rodeo, and and my next one's gotta go on there tomorrow.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

So like uh yeah, they get started young, and then that that's like a disease too. You just you get into that and then you just go.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

And and and I'm um as you were as you're describing, you know, growing up and doing all this, and it's like, well, if you come from a hunting family and rodeo family, like all this traveling around a shoot is pretty natural.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Yeah, it's in fact it was way easier. Everybody says, like, you know, how do you how do you do that? Like traveling wise, and I'm like, I don't think you guys understand this. Is bad, this is as easy as it gets. Like I'm used to I'm used to driving, and you know, you work all day, yeah, and then you're like, you're like, hey, I gotta cut out at two, and they're like, all right, that's fine. I mean, because I started the the job with that premise. Like with rodeo or Friday afternoon, absolutely, and then we work, but but like sometimes it it's Thursday. Okay, sometimes it's Wednesday night, I'll be back Thursday, we'll work, and then I'll be on that night, and then I'll see you Monday. No nonstop. So it just is what it is, and then and then you just get to where weekends are just times where you go rodeo. Now, rodeo but you are you're back for church most of the time.

SPEAKER_05 17:40

Sunday morning, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, and then you're you may rodeo that night again or or not, and then and then Monday morning you're back at work and you just keep going, and and so there's this like no stop, you know, and then you rope every night when you get home from work and and working on horses and getting them right and doing all that, and then turn around and going. But but you like you drive, and when you drive somewhere, you're gonna rope, you're gonna say, say you're up Friday night, you may be up Saturday morning, you may be up Saturday afternoon, and you may be up Saturday night. Yeah. Uh and sometimes even more well, sometimes you might be up Friday morning too, or after the rodeo somewhere, or whatever. But but that's not all in the same town either.

SPEAKER_05 18:28

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

It's like like I remember times we'd be in Logan, Utah, and the pro rodeo there, and performance, and they had a slack in Colville, Utah, which was two and a half hours away, but that slack was after their performance. And so if you rope your calf in the performance or in Logan and you did it just right, you could make a rope, loosen the cinches on your horses, jump them in the trailer saddled, and then haul ass to to Colville and jump your horse out, and then you just tighten your cinches and get in the box and rope it the next one. Jeez.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Yeah, it does make it makes the shooting stuff sound pretty simple, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah, yeah. And then and like and you'd be driving somewhere and you'd get there, like because you'd get say you're at you have to rope in the morning somewhere, and you were just there that night before. Well, then you drive till three in the morning, and then you get your horse out, and then you go feed and water your horse, put them in a stall, or time to the trailer, whatever you got. Yeah, most of the time it's just time the trailer. They get used to it, like they they kind of know the drill. They like they're like dogs, they get like it's like crazy. The horses that you haul like that, like they just they get they you just aim them towards the the trailer and they're like, okay. And they walk in the trailer, you put some hay in front of them so that like you keep they they get everything they need while you're driving down the road. Yeah. When you stop, they get out, you know, everything like that. And then um, but yeah, you'll get out, take care of your horses, yeah, and then you go and then you'll crawl in the trailer because we'll have a little place where you can go sleep in the trailer, and then you crawl out of that thing in the morning, and the first thing you do is you go feed your horses, water your horses, make sure they're all good, take care of, doctor, do whatever you need to do them. Yeah, and you then you go get ready. And then you maybe you eat, maybe, but they eat. Yeah. Like that's the important thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

And and so, and then you're always just sleeping somewhere else and doing that, and then uh back to work in the morning. So then when people when you're shooting, this is like luxury. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, you you can you fly in somewhere, and maybe it's hard the first day because you get you get there a little late and then you get just a little bit of sleep before you go, but then you you're in the same place the whole time, you get done, and then you can go chill, do something you're not worried about getting to the next place. Yep, you're already there, then you get a hotel room, you get a shower, you get everything. Like it's like this is great.

SPEAKER_05 21:00

I had so I had heard some stories that like you know, you you especially when you're in bed school and stuff like that, like you roll out, you know, basically drive all night, right? Get there, maybe catch a couple hours in the car, uh, you know, of sleep, and then shoot, and then sleep in your car that night again? Like, like you you did all that, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Uh I guess did or do. Yeah, still do. Yeah. Uh last year uh at the uh we'll um Beamers match last King and Cole Canyon, right? Yeah, so yeah, last year I I showed up to that place. Yep. I had I had a full schedule, so I had to work on Friday, like it just is what it is. Yeah, and so I get done working on horses at like six o'clock in the afternoon. Well, it's eight hours, nine hours, so I just I took I I leave. Then and I get I get there. I think I got I don't know when I left. All I know is I got there at about 330. Jesus. Yeah. And there's there's a little spot where you can park on the side of the road. I know, ask me how I know. There's a little turnout. There is a little pull out. Yeah. When you get to uh when you get to that place before you go up to the range, if you you're a little spot you pull out, you still got service.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Well, I pulled out right there. I had my bedroll in the back of the car because I figured this was probably gonna happen. And uh so I just I threw it on top of the Jeep uh and uh looked up. Climbed up top of it.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Climbed up on top of the Jeep to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Yep, went to sleep in the in the bedroll. Yep. And uh got up in the morning, drove over the range, won the match, and drove home.

SPEAKER_05 22:57

That's wild to me, man. Yeah, I see that. I was just looking at uh that was the first one of that was the first one you won last year, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, so I gotta I gotta ask. So you like you put all this time into to rodeo and um obviously, I mean you've shot uh a lot. Yep. Was there ever a point where you were a mid-pack shooter? Yep. I felt like talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I mean well part of it was like right in the beginning, like I well, I started ten years eleven years ago. Ten years. This is my 11th year.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah, so uh when I started, like I didn't well, I can tell you that the first like little club match I went to, I shot a seven mag with five round mags out and I lost my second mag hunting. Uh huh. And and I'm a jeep, a little tight, you know. This is what it is. Yep. I sleep on top of the Jeep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, uh I they didn't need I don't even think they made a 10-round mag for that thing. Probably not. No. And uh, well, I did get so it was and I I can remember right where it was, and I was single feeding my last five rounds. So, but I still ended up fourth in that club match or whatever, and I was like, hey, this is alright, this is kind of fun. Yeah. So uh, like, I mean, I didn't start sucking, I guess I should say, and I'm not saying that that that uh didn't start at the bottom. Obviously levels. I I just knew where like I was very I'm still very competitive, but I I was can I was super competitive then, and so I was like, I'll single feed and I'll be just fine. Like it's not a big deal. You just throw it around in there. I would tuck a couple in my hat, a couple over here, and I just chuck it in, go, chuck it in, go. And you know, it's two-minute stages, like you're gonna get through it. Well, absolutely, yeah, yeah, no big deal. Um, so but my equipment at that point was kind of a little bit still, even though it it holds you back. So first thing I did after that, that was the that was the like that's it. I I I shot at a 6-5 Creedmoor the next month. Okay, yeah, yeah. So I was like, that was it. I had it. That was yeah, I had a surgeon made with a uh Bartlane or Krieger 65 Creedmoor barrel. Yeah, and that was the last of the seven MAG going to matches, and and uh because I was like, this this stuff's fun. Yeah, yeah. And then I, you know, and then I was, you know, kind of hover. I I didn't win like a local match for quite a little while. I the I won our region though, because there was like that our um Rocky Mountain Precision Rifle League back in the day. It was like it was like a little series between a few different match deals, and I I think that was either 16 or 17, 2000, I think that was 2017 when I won our little region. But still, like I don't know if you've not like I mean I guess it's no secret, but at the time there was like a few guys that were okay. There was like Marcus Blanchard, he was like the the first guy that even was top five uh out of the shooter, out of the Rocky Mountain region, right? Yeah, yep, yep, and so we all looked at him like he was like some kind of god, right? Like like he was like touching an alien when you were around him. And uh then, and then after that, I was like, there was a couple of guys that were like all right, but I feel like we kind of like came up together, you know.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

And uh like Paul Dowlin and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Paul's still a good shooter, he's a great shooter, really good shooter, multi-discant. Yeah, yep, he's great. And uh, and so but at the time there wasn't really wasn't a lot of people, so so yeah, even though if you win that little region, like that doesn't mean you're like some sort of top shooter, it's just you shops and stuff better than some guys. It's like being the tallest guy at the midget convention. So uh but going but then I would go to a national match, and my the first one I went to I was 13th. Uh yeah, but uh that was I felt like that was kind of like uh I mean that was good. I remember, but that's back in the day when I'm pretty sure Scott Satter or Scott DiCapio won that and Jake was second.

SPEAKER_05 27:41

And I remember like Sands or quite right. Yep, it is Scott DiCapio won it. Bradley Allen was second. Oh Saturday was third, Fibbert fourth, and Marcus Blanchard fifth.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Okay, there you go. Yeah, and I remember I'm pretty sure DiCapio, if I remember right, he was the only guy uh with uh 70% uh I don't know if it shows that it doesn't show it I remember I remember that like and that was so the that was my first one and I'm pretty sure that was uh um Dan Burdochini's and we were squatted together. We were squatted together, yeah. And just random, like I didn't know nobody, right? So I just got in a squad and it was me and him, and dude, and uh there was some cool met some cool people. Yeah, and Gustavo was in the squad with me, and uh dude, there were it was it was that was a fun match.

SPEAKER_05 28:44

Yep, Paul Higley was there, Rusty Ulmer.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

See, and I didn't know any of those guys. I knew Paul, that was it. Uh Paul's the guy that got me into this. Like he met me in Sportsman's Warehouse parking lot, and we started talking because he we were both buying like something reloading stuff. Yep, yeah and he said something, and then we were talking a little bit, and then he goes, Well, you ought to you ought to come down to this little uh shoot thing, and then and then so I went out to that, and it was that was like a little belly match that was like of some guys, and I ended up second at that thing. It was just like but that was with all the rifle builders. That was like with like so guys that that were that have gone on and been like they were the best rifle builders in Utah. Um like they won the like they won all of those vortex um gosh, what did they call that? The um gosh. This is a couple years ago. The chat the vortex challenge is what it was. Something like that, yeah. The extreme challenge or something like that. Yep. Um, and that's where you had to run and then you had to shoot, and which me and Paul Dallin shot it. I think we won it once. Nice or something. Yeah, yeah. But but like Brian and Mike were there, uh Lone Peak. Yeah. Uh and a bunch of these like guys that were work for were the gunsmiths for like Best of the West and Gunworks and all that type of stuff. They were all there. And Christian or not Christian, Cross Canyon Arms, which so all the all like the guys from Utah, they were like that, but they all shot these like 338 edges and crap. And then here I show up with my old seven mag and I just go ahead and uh and then I end up second at that thing, and and then I was like, I was hooked after that. Cause uh and that's when I we Paul's like, hey, you gotta come to this uh this PRS thing with me. It's be it'll be good. Because he invited me to that. I was like, it was like, all right. And then when he saw that I went there, then he's like, Oh, you need to come with me here. And then it was like, I mean, and I never stopped going with him. It was just fun.

SPEAKER_05 30:51

Heck yeah. Now, uh back in those days, you know, we were talking like being semi-mid-pack, right? And and if looking at your uh looking at your broad spot. I was pretty mid-pack. I was pretty mid-pack. Uh but by I see shot a couple in two six 2016, one in 2017.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Well, 17, I think I shot some uh price.

SPEAKER_05 31:18

Yep. Um in 19 you won your first match, two-day pro series match. So between 2016 and 2019, like how much were you shooting? Like, were you I mean, was it just competing? Like as much as you can get out to compete?

SPEAKER_00 31:33

No. You know, it was kind of cool because about 2017, after I won the little uh series thing, there was a company there in Utah that that was kind of like they they were kind of a bougie little gun shop. Yeah. And uh they they were like, hey, do you want to shoot on our little team or whatever? So I could get I could get they would give me like a barrel, and they would, and and and the kid would Jeremy Smith, he's who he sells cars now, I think. Um but but before that he was he was a gunsmith and he did pretty good. And Jeremy would would uh spin my barrels up. It was called the gun vault, and they they uh asked me to be on there because I was kind of friends with some of the guys that worked there and that, and then they would do it so so I could get my barrels done for relatively cheap, and they would they would kind of expedite the process, which I know that's a luxury not everybody has, but I was like fortunate enough to have it at at pretty pretty early on, and uh so I started shooting a bunch of rounds, like a lot of rounds, and I would I would buy whatever cheap bullet I could find. I did not care, yeah, like at all. And and uh it seems like I don't know what it was. I don't know if bullets were just better back then or or what. For a while. Well, and my standards are way lower back then, right? Like now, now I got some insane standards probably. Yeah, yeah. But before that, it was like if it shot half decent, I was it, I was I was gonna have it. Yeah, and uh then I know in about 2018, I think I shot, oh, it was I was scaring 20,000, probably 16,000 rounds. I I built a range in 2017. My at when I tell you I was hunting I get work I always go hunting. Well, my my uh my mother's family has a half a section up in the mountains of just some ground. And I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna put some I asked my grandpa, I remember going in there and hey, can I put some steel targets up, kind of make a little range up there? And he's like, okay. And he said that was fine. So I was like, sweet. So I You didn't realize you're gonna go up there and shoot 20,000 rounds of the crack. I I I freaking I cut two sheets of uh AR500 steel because my uncle's got a plasma, and I was like, all right, I I drew up a cut sheet on it to save as much steel as I could out of that thing, and I squeaked a lot out of it.

SPEAKER_05 34:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

I still got plates laying down there that are like that are still like ready to hang with straps and everything. Yep. I hung ump team million targets up on that hillside, yeah. And then and then I built I welded up some props and then I just went to shooting. And I would go after work so that so so this is I would get done at work and I would drive. How far? Oh, so it would take me from my my house, it would take me uh 35, 40 minutes to 40 minutes to get on the mountainside. Okay. Uh which is not that far. Yeah, yeah. I mean, most people ask not very far at all. Yeah. So we would work in Ogden two days a week, um, which is which it was only about 30 minutes from there, maybe 25.

SPEAKER_05 34:52

Is this up by the Deseret Ranch?

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Uh kind of. It's headed that way. It's in Morgan. Okay. It's in Morgan. So it's on your way up there. Yep. And I would I would go and and uh well, I would get off and I would go straight there, and I would shoot a couple hundred rounds sometimes a day. And I would just go up there and I would just shoot as much as I can. I go home, reload them all, and then I'd be ready for the next time. And I would just do that over and over and over again. And I'd go home and I'd rope, and then I'd go to sleep. So I would just go, I'd shoot, and it'd be dark, and they'd be calling me, you come home, yeah. And I and they they'd have them pinned, and then I would go home, I rope. And then and then uh I just kept doing that. So a couple three times a week, I'd be up there shooting, testing stuff, trying this out, trying that out. And uh, and I just I was able to, and it blew it every evening, it blows there like 20 something miles an hour.

SPEAKER_05 35:57

Ah, see, yeah, you're getting a lot of a lot of practice and a lot of wind.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

A lot of wind. It blows up that canyon a lot. Like and and and where you're at, it might be blowing straight away from you or straight at you. Yeah, but at the top, and it may be blowing 15 where you're at, but at the top, it's blowing 25. Like you can see two foot pieces of steel. Um, like it would blow like if you hung them on if you hung them on the on a on a on an A-frame, yeah, and didn't like have it really, really um tied up good. Yep, those plates would be overlapped and pushed all the way to the end of the A-frame just from wind.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Okay. That's that's two foot pieces of steel at 1200 yards.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

That's unreal.

SPEAKER_05 36:43

So you're you're up there 6'5 Creed still?

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, I was shooting 6'5 Creed. Well, no, I was shooting a dasher by then. I actually was one of the first ones in Utah to ever shoot a dasher. Okay. So there was one guy that I knew of, and and then there was like some gun builders that they they were like, they're like, man, this would be cool. They're like, we want to put a br in it in here, and then I started asking around dasher this, dash or that. And then a guy was like, Hey, you should try an 6XE. I shot that XC. I said, This thing sucks. Yeah, yeah, I hated it, but it wasn't, it wasn't, hadn't didn't have anything to do with that cartridge. I think it was just, you know, maybe it was a barrel, maybe it was uh bullets I was shooting. I got no idea, but I know that that the second I switched over to that dasher, because Brian and Mike are like, hey, there's some mags. Um what's his name? Um, Travis Stevens is made. He's blueprint. Uh he blueprinted this mag. He's like, this is like when TS Customs was like like a toddler. Yeah, yeah. Travis was just starting it. He'd maybe been doing it for not a long time, I feel like. Yeah. And Travis started buying actions from Mike and Brian, and so then they kind of built a relationship. But then they're like, hey, Travis has tried this mag. Travis says this is a good mag or uh a deal.

SPEAKER_05 38:09

And that was the thing back uh uh 2017. Are we talking? Like yeah, like Dash Dasher and VR, like just they wouldn't feed, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:19

No, it wouldn't. But but Travis, so I got one of the first ones. I still got it. Nice. I got two of them and they work good. Um, I bought two magazines, and they said they're like, and I called Travis, and Travis said, Look, I got these ones. I got one, he says it's just it's kind of blueprinted with like some of the cheaper material, but I'll send it to you. And it's one that I've been using, but that's all I got right now. Um, but yeah, I'll send I'll send you this one, and then uh and then uh uh I got it, tried it, liked it, and then I called and got another one. Or actually, I think I got yeah, and then later on I ordered more when he had updated material because I ended up melting one of them, leaving it in the car uh because it would it that stuff would just soft. Uh and that's why he said he's like this isn't as good a material, you know, like he warned me. But it like those things, it fed like a little sewing machine. It was just like no doubt. Yeah, it was those those were good mags, they still work great. So um, but yeah, as soon as I figured that out, as soon as they said, look, these mags will shoot, there's no problem, you put them in there, whatever. Yep. Ever since then, I was like, I was going. And then so then it was like a Dasher and 115 D tax. That was like that was my genius.

SPEAKER_05 39:37

Those are the yeah, those are the bullets.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Yep. Uh well that's that way they had a high BC back then, and I was too cheap to buy burgers. And uh, but I will tell you that I have not won them won one match, not one, with with anything but a burger.

SPEAKER_05 39:54

No doubt.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Yep. Okay. So I remember I got pissed off because I felt like my gun, like I I had like it was like I ran into a just a okay lot or like like the the D-Tex would shoot good, but they didn't shoot like like they shot good sometimes, really, really good sometimes. And then it was like it would shoot okay, and then I got like I ran out of them, and I'm like, maybe I should try some 105s because somebody said that they were good. This is long before 109 was even thought about.

SPEAKER_05 40:25

Oh yeah, 109 wasn't till 2019 finale. I think we finally heard about them.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Yeah, 2019 finale, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

Finale, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Yeah. Um, because I remember at the finale they gave us samples that year. That was my first time getting there. It some I was in squad two. That was my first time even getting close. Then after that, it's been a little bit different since then. Uh, but yeah, so I'm I'm sitting there and I and I remember I switched like the end of 2018. I switch over to this and I went, oh, that's how guns are supposed to shoot. And uh they just all went in the same dang hole. Yeah, I mean, so I would just pile them on top of each other and go, Wow, this is good.

SPEAKER_05 41:08

So it's I mean, you're out just practicing shooting. Yeah, I mean so you get up on uh up on a mountain as much as you can on the way home from work, 100 to 200 rounds a night.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Yeah, dash sometimes less, but a lot of times it was yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:24

How do you shoot that much and not burn up a barrel? You just keep shooting, it don't matter.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Oh no, I well back then I I'd try the life of a barrel pretty good. Yeah. Um, I'm not saying I don't now because like that that match I slept on top of the car, the bar the when I showed up, it had 4,500 rounds on it. But it but it is that gun right now, I still got that gun, and I guarantee you I can take it out and hit anything I wanted to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. It just you might have to clean it a little more often than you want to, but other than that, that thing is a hammer.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

No doubt.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah, I try not to like most of the time my rule of thumb is 2,000 rounds. I don't care the caliber. Yeah, it ain't going, it ain't going no longer than that. I pull it off, it's done. But if I get into a bind, like I got I like, you know, I can't get a gun to shoot, can't do something. Well, if I got a good one that I know shoots sitting in the corner, it's all put together. Well, that one's going. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so that's well, most of the time, if I'm smart, it that's the one that's going. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes, you know, you hang, you hang, you cling to one because you're like, oh, she's gonna shoot, you know. I think so. And yeah, well, and then it doesn't let you down, and you're right, and you get once you get mad enough, then the other one comes back out.

SPEAKER_05 42:39

So uh your grandpa, right? Marla? Yep. He well, that's great grandpa, yeah. Grandpa, all right. So he did he teach you how to reload?

SPEAKER_00 42:50

No, no, but that's who taught my grandpa how to reload, and and but his reloads are the ones that are still just like kind of or floating out there in a box of them. It says Marlowe on them.

SPEAKER_05 43:01

Okay, so he probably was the the epic guy in the family who probably loaded what you know 10,000 rounds in his lifetime.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Oh, he he yeah, maybe, yeah. Maybe I don't think he loaded them that like he probably reloaded a lot, yeah, but but it probably still didn't touch 10,000.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

How many do you think you've reloaded at this point?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

I don't know. I I know it was a lot that year. That year it was insane, and then the next year was probably not much better.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Once I got into vet school, it it slowed down when I got to uh when I got to Washington as far as reloading goes, but that was more because I started shooting for Eagle Eye. Okay, yeah. But I would shoot at least 10 to 12,000 rounds a year.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Uh like no problem. Because I mean, shoot when you when you when you put I don't know, six thousand rounds uh at matches. Yep. Just at matches, you know. I always figure, you know, 250 to 300 rounds a match. And if you shoot, you know, 16, 17 matches in a year plus whatever club matches you go to, right? Like, you know, that's that's uh 4,000 matches. And then if you shoot uh if you shoot say some um club matches, if you shoot 10 or 11 of those, you know, there's another thousand. So if you're five to six, yeah, five to six thousand just in go going to matches and zeroing. Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

Um you you've shot a lot of club matches and you still do. I remember I remember a story, right? That you said, like yeah, I'm gonna put the rifle down for a while, and you shot like the weekend after the finale last year. Yeah, of course. You were at Gravestone, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Well, yeah, it's right around the corner.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

Yep, and they were having a one day as after the finale.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

I know when I shot up and they went, Are you serious? I was like, Well, I don't know. I mean, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 45:00

Yep. Did you win that match?

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:04

On a heater. So how how much do you think shooting regional one-day matches like contributed to your performance on a two-day deal?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Oh, uh, it's you know, okay, I think that's the best practice a guy can get. And I still think that's the best any like best learning experience for anyone, period. Like if it like if you're like, oh, I I kind of need to figure this out before I show up, that's the wrong attitude. You need to go and figure it out. No, no, not not do it the other way around. Because you're gonna learn more in in just an afternoon or a just a day than you're gonna learn anything else because you you you're gonna be like sit there and try to come up with a plan under stress, and then and then have to execute a plan under stress, and then go that worked, that didn't work, and then take that, move on, see all the gear you need, see what you want to change, what you want to do different. Here are all kinds of different ideas. Now, I will put a little caveat in there that you need to learn to to carry a big pile of salt in your pocket when you show up to matches and kind of kind of be like, okay, like now I'm not saying don't don't trust anybody, but maybe just like like be like, okay, that sounds like a cool idea, and then table that for when you can actually think about it and go back and practice it and see if that even means anything, but maybe not like if you hear like, oh yeah, this is the best scope and rifle combo, you can't do go with it, blah blah put some salt on it, yeah. It's like uh because I see people that come come and then they just like think that this is the only thing to have, and then all of a sudden they find out, well, turns out there's a lot of things that work, and and that's that's not really what this is about. It's about making really good trigger pulls and learning how to make good decisions and and make good corrections. Yeah, that's the main thing. Like that's it, whether or not you shoot, like look, just look at the last people to win a golden bullet, like as far as in the you take the last five of them, they're all the different stuff. So you don't have to be the same, you'd be using the same crap. Like it it's it's all personal preference.

SPEAKER_05 47:33

So that uh if if you were to well, let's go way back. How much has your gear changed from 2017 to now? Obvious, obviously the sport developed quite a bit, and then you know the chassis came around, I mean foundation stocks, like the even uh actions you mentioned, lone peak, you know, impact, like all of that was developed from about that time to now. But how how how what does your gear look like from day one to now?

SPEAKER_00 48:04

So um so okay, when I started in 2016, um, like I said, the first club match we went to was a Beryl and Carlson stock that I had uh converted from right-handed to left-handed. For the file. Actually, Aaron Giants, the guy that built my gun, he he milled out the he just took the end mill and milled out the bolt spot because there was gonna be some room to get through. But then after that, I I had to build the like I had to fill that all in with uh JV, yeah, uh weld and all that, and then bedded it, did all that type of stuff. And then on the other side, I had to dremel out everything to make it look smooth and all that. Then I had it dipped, and okay, and that was a Remington TrueDup Remington 700 action, um, as a good gun. Yeah. With a medium Palma, or not a medium Palma, it was actually a Sendero contour. Yeah, um, nice gun, but heavy. Too heavy to hunt with, and that's what I hunted with.

SPEAKER_05 49:14

Yeah, and that was the seven mil. Mm-hmm. Okay.

unknown 49:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:18

Do you think do you think was it mag you said it was mag fed, yeah? Two five. Yeah, it was. It was mag fed. So do you think you could win a one-day regional series match with that?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Yeah, that thing shoots good. It shot really good. It shot really good. That would be funny. I still had it. I sold that thing, and I should have never sold. I there's a couple of guns that I'm like, man, I should have never sold. Yeah. But I it also allowed me to get into some other equipment because at the time I was I probably that's how I wouldn't trade my stuff around. Exactly. Um, I still have the scope though. That was a customaw, uh, 4-20 or whatever, or 5-20. Um with their little hunt reticle and owl. It's it's cool. It's on my wife's gun, and that's a gun that I'll never get rid of. That was cool. Yeah, that it was that was my first like real gun, like big boy gun. It was a 308 Long Mat Kimber Longmaster classic. Okay. Pretty gun with some with wood and stuff, and then I had an old guy. You competed for that? No.

SPEAKER_05 50:22

No, okay. That's a sound rifle.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

That was before my seven mag and all that type of stuff. Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah. Now, now it has a number three Bartland uh two forty-three barrel on there. There you go. Yep. And uh my my it I it I call it my wife's hunting gun, but she ain't never used it. I I've used it and I've set it with some people so they can use it, and it's got a walnut stock that's real pretty and cool. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I'm never getting rid of that one. I'm gonna make that dasher one day because I just I think it'd be cooler as a dasher.

SPEAKER_05 50:55

And it's left-handed?

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Nope. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_05 50:58

That's the problem. That's okay. That's what I'm gonna spend.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yeah. But I've got hunting rifles that are like way cooler than that now, though. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

I mean, but um, so then I got I so yeah, so that's what I started with. The next thing, the very next thing I got though, was I got uh XLR element chassis, okay, right when they first came out. Yep. With a a uh call a six to twenty-four. Okay, with a uh skimmer two reticle to start. Yep. Um so no Christmas tree, just regular crosshead, and then a um oh, and then it was a surgeon action with a and then that was a medium palma, and I bought a brake off of a guy on something for 50 bucks. It was one of those badger ordinance bar brakes, yeah, yeah. Then you had to you had to taper the end of the barrel down.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Well, turns out you don't have to taper the end of the barrel down, you just screw it on and tighten it up wherever it stops. Wherever it stops. There you go. That's how I used it. I was like, I'm not tapering this thing down, that's stupid. And I would just screw it in and it tightened the side screw and a side screw on it. I still got that thing. That's what I shot that thing for, just like that. It's a two-port break, shot it forever like that. Okay. There you go. There you go. And then after that, it was like I would slowly change certain things. Like pretty soon, you know, like I kept the calls for a while, and then I ended up I ended up finally breaking down like the first match I ever won was with a a uh um tangent five. Okay with a Gen 2 XR, which is still awesome. Renicle. I love that Renicle. It's on it's only it only got half L marks, so that's perhaps we forget that we can use a like people don't understand that it's totally usable, and I hit some tiny, tiny targets with that thing.

SPEAKER_05 53:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Like just use your eyes, boys.

SPEAKER_05 53:07

I it and you obviously you won the golden bolt with a little pole, and you've been shooting little polts for a while now, and the PR PRT reticle, I'm assuming, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Yeah, I've still got my prototype on my gun. So it's not even really a pro it was like John was starting, or John was talking to him, or whatever. Yeah, I started shooting for him um a little while after that, and I had that CCH and I was like, this thing is garbage. But then finally, which it's it's not that bad. Like it was the first thing you have quarters. I did like that about it. Yeah, but everything else about it is not not ideal. Yeah, um, but I did win several matches with that thing, just like that.

SPEAKER_05 53:48

I yeah, I like in the PR2. I love the quarter and half mil marks, whatever. And you know, I wish I I wish I wish that more reticle companies would do that, right? I don't when I and I I have a lot of scopes, you know, and uh you know, whatever. I the two, four, six, eight, ten is fine. I it's just busy for my eyes, right? And I really like like if I blow one off the edge and I see it off the edge, I just move over a quarter and it's good to go. If I if I blow one by more than that, then I know I gotta at least at least go half, you know? Like it's it's simple mind, maybe, you know.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

I agree. Uh well, my thing is I always shot that half millimeter deal, and you would have to look with your eyeballs, like you know, like I'm holding four tenths, so I'm holding a little less than half, and you can kind of you can kind of make it, it's not like it's that hard to like divide things up with your brain. Exactly. So you kind of just shader over there, pull the trigger, and then you put it right back to where you were before, and then you got to look and see where it hit. And then when you look and see where it hit, then you look on the reticle, like, okay, it's about right there in the reticle. You move to there, pull a trigger. Exactly. Like, yeah, you can get very, very, very close, like within less than a tenth. And by then, how much did the wind change? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like you could you're gonna get really, really close.

SPEAKER_05 55:12

And and you know, nowadays, anyway, most targets are about five tenths, right? Yeah, so so that is the width of whatever it is you're looking at. I mean, you can literally move it half over on a target if you needed to.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

You know, it's very it's really not hard. And if you're like me, I measure all my targets before I go up there. And so I'm like, in my mind, I'm already thinking, like, okay, well, I have like some little soft rules or whatever in my not rules, but like like I like I'll sit there and think before a stage, and and I've I haven't talked a lot about about this, but but it's just more of like not that I not that I've not wanted to tell anybody, it's more of like I just really haven't had to articulate it until like you know, helping some people and like trying to get them. I would do it just naturally, and I think a lot of people or a lot of the good guys do. But like one of the mental things that people don't realize is like when you walk up there, like I hate listening to people uh sometimes when I'm shooting because I'm like, you guys, they don't nobody all right. Let me back up.

SPEAKER_04 56:20

I'm excited to hear this. This is so this is part of your your stage prep.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Well, yeah, because people they say things and they mean things, but they haven't fully fleshed out the thought. And this is this is applicable across really everything in life, you know, like you'll that people will say something and they just really haven't fully fleshed that idea out.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Because if they took that to the end of where it goes, they'd probably be like, nah, that's not right. Like it's just not that complicated. And they would be like, as soon as they get there, so then I try to walk people through it in a way that makes sense. Um, but I let them set their own trap, right? And then they can kind of realize, like, oh yeah, that doesn't make complete sense. So first thing I do is I walk up and measure the targets, and then so then I'll hear somebody, they'll be like sitting here shooting along, and they got a half mil target, and they'll be shooting along, and you'll hear I was holding a half mil, and then they missed, and then they so I went to six tenths, and then and then I hit some other ones. Well, you're like, okay, that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_05 57:19

Said no, but yeah, you didn't go, you didn't miss at half and then hit center at six tenths.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

There's no way, no, no, no, and so you'll hear people say, Oh, the wind's switchy all the time. And like, like, oh, it's so switchy and all this stuff, and and then and then you watch guys like Austin and stuff, and then and uh they'll be sitting there and they're shooting along, and they're doing things that I mean to us, we think is just the way that you do it, like yeah, because whatever, you know, you'll watch it, you'll watch a round hit a little right of center, and then you go to six tenths, you know. Yes, yep, yeah. Uh and then and then all of a sudden you see one go left to the center, and you drop her down, you know, five tenths, and then and then you're back on center or whatever. Yeah, and then and then all of a sudden you'll be shooting along and say you can't see it, or or you know, for whatever reason, you know, it does actually pick up. Well, then all of a sudden you you go, okay, it's a it's a half mil plate. Um that that guy, if he's holding a half and holding a half mil to start with melt, he's probably he's probably going to eight, nine tenths next shot. Yeah. Right? And then and then pulls the trigger, and then maybe hits up wind and drops it down a tenth, and then he's at he's at seven, eight tenths, you know, or whatever. And then, but you're gonna be on the plate because the correction should be the center. So I start thinking in the so then when I start telling people, because like if I hear it, then that so I hear that, and then instead of just being quiet like I should, I just say, I just I'll be like, Really? And then and then and then you know, people will be like, Yeah, yeah, I went six six tenths, huh? Okay, and then because they'll they'll they'll hit it a couple times and also they'll miss again, and then they had to go to seven tenths, you know.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

And then they hit it.

SPEAKER_00 59:12

And then and then all of a sudden they hit it again, and then all of a sudden then then then they're back at like eight, and then and then, and then all of a sudden they're hitting most of them in the middle. Yeah, which that would have been the logical shot after the first miss.

SPEAKER_05 59:25

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. It would have been your second shot.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

So I always tell people, what's your minimum? If you miss, what's the minimum correction? And so minimum correction would be on a half mil plate. What what would it be?

SPEAKER_05 59:40

It well, again, I'll go back to what I just said. If I saw it go just off the edge, I'm going to a quarter. At a quarter to whatever.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

Then I would go a little more than that.

SPEAKER_05 59:48

I go three tenths.

unknown 59:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

But but I know it's obviously that's what I think.

SPEAKER_05 59:53

With the PR2 radical, that's what I do. I'm like, well, that's the thing. The PR2 is great because you can do that, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Like, but realistically, and that's probably gonna get you. Well, obviously, it's gonna get you in the middle. Uh pretty close. But in my mind, I'm like, okay, that's a three-tenth, because if you miss, the chances of you missing by yeah, half a tenth, yeah, or whatever. That's probably true. But I mean, like most of the time you're probably missing it by, you know, you're missing it a little bit more than that. And I'd rather just throw it on the upwind side anyways. Yeah. Uh, and so I'm like, I'm gonna try to move about 60%. So if it's like if it's a six-tenth plate, I'm probably gonna try to err on the side of three to four. Yeah, yeah, four tenths. Um then, and then you know, that's the minimum correction though. Well, and then I and then I said, What's your maximum correction if you don't see where you miss?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:46

And so for me, that would be a half mil. Hopefully the right way.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

Hopefully the right, I try to I try to be I try to move 90%, 80 to 90, because that accounts for everything, whether it's like gun, all that type of crap. Yep. Um, but you ba but essentially you're I mean, yes, you're correct. You move you take anything that didn't work, because basically the only thing you know after you pull a trigger and you whiff and you see nothing is is that whatever was on the left side to the right side of that plate of your reticle, all that stuff didn't work. All of it, 100% of it. So why put why put it back on the plate? If you didn't move it, give yourself the best chance and just move that whole plate off or 90% or whatever. So you most time I just put my reticle back to where it was before, and I look at the edge that I think it went off of. I take that mark and move it inside of the other edge, pull the trigger.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:41

So I'm moving essentially half mil, but that's usually that's usually when I find out I have an elevation issue. Like, oh, I didn't see because it went over the target.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:52

You find out either because you either had an elevation issue or you hit. That's that's essentially what happens. Yeah, I showed this to a guy in like a lot of wing, and he was like messing around doing stuff, and then he started doing it, and then he's like, dude, that's like cheating. You don't even have to look. I'm like, Yeah, I know. You just see dust off the side, and you just do that and you'll hit the target and then read it from there.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:12

Um as long as you have good elevation. Uh, but most of the time, because we don't usually miss like that far off a plate, like, period. Right. Like if you're shooting a half mil plate. If it's gusty 15 to 25, maybe, you know, maybe, but but even still in that scenario, you're most guys are gonna be able to call it within, you know, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

But yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:38

So then you've got a half mil plate within one, like you could cover a whole mil's worth of wind.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:43

That's true. Yeah, you're in two shots. Yeah, you're not missing by a plate width. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

So then, so then it's like like, okay, so even if it's a lot of wind, like we're gonna get on this thing. It's no big deal. Uh you know, then then it's from there, then you then then I go back, okay. What's your maximum correction if you hit?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:03

So that Yeah, I I mean it should be less than two tenths, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

Yeah, two tenths. That I would say on a half mil plate, it your maximum correction if you hit is two tenths. I'd never move more than two tenths on that plate.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:17

Did you ever move two tenths on a point and then missed? Because you saw it wrong? I guess I know I've done it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

Yes, I've done it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

And I've watched some people do it, and and that's okay. That right there is the is is when you start really hearing people start crying about the the wind being shifty. Yeah. That's like the 90, that's like the most of the time, that's the diagnosis. You would watch them, and it is terrible to watch. It sucks. Because usually what happens is they they hit and then they they they miss, right? And then they see it off that side, and then they add a tenth.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:56

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

And they pull the trigger, and then they see the plate late, like it hits, and then snaps back. Yep. And then they see the other side, so then they think they're on this side, and so then they go back, and then boom, they're off that side again. Yep. And I'm just like, oh that that's hard to watch. And they're like, oh man, I just I uh I did that, and then it was too much, and then all of a sudden I was back off the that other side, I don't know what's going on. And and then I just, yeah, it it's hard to watch, but you know, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:34

It is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

I I'm guilty of the same thing. Like, I've been shooting along and and then been like, oh, that's that's right. Everybody is. If if they haven't had this happen, um you just know that they're lying, and that's okay. Because you gotta tr in in the moment, I'm gonna, I'm I'm gonna be like, I saw it the way exactly how it was, and that there is no other way. Uh, because well you have to. If you don't trust yourself and what you saw over everybody else, then then you're gonna have a tough time shooting. A hundred percent. 100%. So like I'll hear people tell me stuff, and and I'm not saying that that they're they're not valid, they may be right, but but I gotta maintain that mentality of like, well, I'm I'm a writer, so I gotta go off of that. Because because then mentally uh you know I'm good. That's why I think like if I want to start talking names, yeah, yeah. There's a there's a guy we all know and love.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:43

Um I know where you're going with this.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:45

And and and uh he will he will never say that he saw something wrong. And that's okay. Because honestly, it's a great mentality. And and I and because it doesn't matter if he's wrong. I've told this to several people. It doesn't matter if he's wrong. Yep. Because honestly, it's the best mentality there is. If he believes that he saw it that way, and that's the way that it and even if it wasn't, it doesn't matter because it'll save him. Because he trusts himself enough to make the correction next time and not question himself. He ain't questioning himself. He's freaking out. There ain't no question himself. And I'm telling you right now, that's what makes him deadly.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

Because he sees one, say he sees one wrong in a match and he'll argue to the blue in the face, and you'll sit there and argue with him. It's not worth it. Because the next five, he's or ten he sees right, and he's gonna put them right in the middle.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:37

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

So he misses one shot for that mentality, but hits ten more. I'm taking that mentality every time.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:45

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So if if you let's talk solely wind corrections here.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

And and you're at the range with a with a new shooter, and um you're asking some of these questions, and they don't even they don't even really understand, right? Maybe they just finished shooting, they're halfway through their first regional series match, and you're like, all right, let's talk about wind strategy here, right? Um what advice are you giving them, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

Well, I can tell you recently at Preentices match, when when I was there, there was this state, there was this, there was this couple that I was shooting with, and they're brand new, right? To the to the game. They were they're should. Huh? They shot some one day. Yeah, they they were shooting some one-day matches, I think, is all. And then they were there, and like this is a great couple, and they were fun to shoot with. Um, I didn't know anybody, or I knew a couple people on my squad I'd shot with before, but like, but like I randomly got put in the squad because like perfect I signed up on Thursday and showed up Friday night. That's still a day early. Yeah, yeah. Well, Friday night, it was late, okay. I still zero on Saturday morning. And uh anyway, so I I show up there and then I'm like, I didn't, you know, you you gotta want to be careful telling girl men how to do do stuff, right? Like so I always kind of feel bad, like the the first little bit because you don't know the people and they don't know you, and so you don't want to like it's surely somebody was like, hey, this is the best shooter that's that right now in this day and age, this is the guy.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:28

Somebody had to have it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

Well, yeah, but you don't know if they they uh know who you are or anything like that. I I just assume most people don't know who that guy is. Yeah, so it's like I mean it's fun and it's a great time.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:42

Yep, but like I dude, I do the same thing. Like I I shot the uh it was the NRL 22 championship when it was here in Wisconsin, and I signed up as an RO or whatever and shot the RO match and was squatted with eight or nine other people, and I I I actually showed up late, had trouble getting my rifle zeroed, went out there. I'm shooting really well. I took second in a match, but I was 90% through the course of fire, and somebody was like, Hey, so what do you do for a living? And I'm like, uh run the PRS. And then you kind of have like everybody turn around and look at you, and I'm like, Yeah, it's that's my job. And you're like, what? I don't understand that. Like, yeah, the precision rifle series, that's that's me. What? You know, I'm like, it's perfect. I didn't want I don't want that attention.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:37

Yeah, I don't I don't eat I don't really either, you know, but like uh by the time we even started the first stage, like it was already out, I guess. Some people were waiting for me when I showed up. Yeah. Like and and we're shooting PRS, right? Like if that's not happening that's not happening to you at a PRS match. That that only happened at an NRL 22 match. And it's because it's one NRL and it was 22 at the time, and they I don't think you still hadn't launched the PRS 22 thing, I think.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:10

Uh no, no, this is just a year or two ago, honestly. Yeah, it was yeah, it was and it was a championship, but it's okay. Yeah, rip fire is a little different. It's people shoot in a region, they know people in a region, that's about it. For the most part, there's obviously some guys that really travel and do you know go really hard afters and stuff out there, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

And Chris, yeah, this is yes, and and Shane's.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:39

Yeah, yeah, Googly eyes. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:42

So I'm like, Yep. I'm I'm trying not to like overstep, you know, still though, because I you know, like I said, it's grown men and they they're doing their thing, and you don't want to like just go be like, hey dude, you have to try this. Because you don't know if they're how they're gonna react if they're gonna be like, shut up, I know what I'm doing, or or if they're gonna be like, ah, thanks, you know, or whatever, and like take it and use it. And so this couple, I'm like, after a while, and I watched this girl just like just pound the same hole, or like, you know, just have a tenth, or whatever. I finally have that conversation that I was just telling you about with her. And I and I said, Look, because I watched her husband, she was right, right there. I was watching somebody else, and then her husband's before, and I and I'm watching, and then her husband did it, and I showed her, I was like, hey, look, you gotta when the because it was it was a three, three targets, KYL rack, and uh, we're shooting it off this car or something. And I'm like, look, you shoot that first round, and if you miss, all you gotta do is is because it because they were the I mean it's in water and it just would splash back there, and there's grass.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:51

100% see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

Well, no, you couldn't see it. Oh, you couldn't see it. No, you could just see what side most of the time, unless it was a little one, then you can't see bigly big water though, right? It was just water and grass, and it was reeds coming out of the it was so it was like you're shooting in a in a pond that's going away from you, yeah, and then it it's just all these um reeds coming up out of it and a T-post in the middle of the reeds, and then and so for 50 yards behind. I mean, your round hits clear back in them reeds. Yeah, yeah. So you don't have any idea. You just know it went on. Oh, that went right or that went left. That's it. So I'm like, look, what's their minimum correction if you get on there? And and then she's like, Well, what do you mean? I'm like, look, just just trust me here, okay? Yeah. That first plate was six tenths. Yeah. So you if you miss, move four tenths. Don't even think about it. Just move four tenths at least. Maybe a half mil or more. But and I'm like, but but if you go up there, I said, just good rule of thumb. If you do that, and then if you hit it, watch which side you go, whichever side you go, just kind of shade it one way or the other, and you'd be good. I said, Because the wind was up enough and down enough to where like you had to pay attention. And so she goes up there, and her her husband had just got like a one or two. And and uh and and and I'm like, I love her, this is gone. Yeah, and he and he's just like, Yeah, I went up there, I just could not see, blah blah blah. Yeah, and all of a sudden she goes up there, and all of a sudden you hear boom, and nothing. And all of a sudden she sits there and thinks for a second and runs a bolt, and I could see it like she could she just stared at that plate for a second, and then all of a sudden she runs, she shoots, impact, dead center, and then bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, nine. And uh she she was like smiling, and he goes, he's just like looking, and I was like, We'll have to have this conversation on the next stage, you know, type of deal. And she was all pumped. She's like, and I said, How's that? She says, That was really good. She's like, I missed the first one, I didn't know what to do. He's like, But then I just sat there and thought about it, and she was like holding like nine tenths. He's like, She was so I sat there, and then you you said like you would just just straight move. I knew what side I went off of, but it was kind of hard for me to see, and so I just was trying to figure out what side to go off of, and so I just added four tenths and pulled the trigger, and then it's that center. Yeah. And I just ran it and just kept going. And I was like, Yeah, it works, doesn't it? And uh and and then he's like, yeah, and then she then they both cleaned the next stage on a little troop line deal, and and then kind of just it was all a lot more fun after that because they were just like able to you know, you're able to deal with it because you you have some sort of plan, right? And most people don't have some any plan or any strategy to combat what's going on, and so they go up there with and the and then the and they're they so people get emotionally so when you sit and you look at a target and you stare at it and the wind is blowing and you're freaking out in the on the inside because you want to, right? And so you're like you got this. Clock sticking. Yeah, well, and you got all this cortisol building up in your system before you even start, right? So you're already stressing and you're thinking about it, and you're like, I don't know what to hold, and you're like, I think we have to hold four tenths. The guy in front of you held six tenths, and so you're like, maybe it's six tenths because it worked for him because he shot some and hit some, and then and then you know, guy, then the next guy goes and he gets he shoots seven tenths and he hit some of them, and then you see somebody they help hold four tenths and they hit or missed, and and so they're like, I don't know what to do, and then so then you're sitting there in your mind, you're like, your catch was telling you to hold eight tenths, and then the guy in front of you tells you to hold six tenths, and then so that you're like, I'm gonna hold seven, and then and then they go up there, and so the emotionally you're like, it has to be this, it has to be this, it's it's what it is. You pull a trigger, and then you miss the right off the road, and then you're like, uh oh, but it had to be that, so it had to be me. And so what do you do? So then they send a confirmation miss. Yep. So it's like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna confirmation miss. Yeah, that's why I call those. It's confirmation miss. Yeah, that's it's like, oh yeah, oh, oh, wait a minute, it wasn't it wasn't me, you know? Yep, but but you're because you're emotionally attached to that decision you made. Yeah, you don't want nobody wants to be wrong. That means you have to admit that you're wrong. That doesn't feel comfortable, and so and so you're like, you don't want to say that. That no way, I'm not wrong. And so then emotionally that they're like, uh it's gotta be confirmation miss. Confirmation miss. Definitely missed, definitely wasn't. So then so then they're like, but but uh, but but he just shot it with six tenths and cleaned it, you know, and so so then so then I hit the edge on every one of them. I'll hold eight. So then they hold eight, and then they hit an edge for like two top two shots, and all of a sudden it's off again. So then they're like so then so then it's oh nine tenths. Confirmation myth. Nine tenths, and then you hit more edges, and then off again, and then pretty soon, okay, now you're holding a mill, and then you hit and the wind dies just a little bit, and then you're kind of in the middle, and then finish the stage, right? Yeah, but that's kind of how how it works. It and people because you're so emotionally attached to that that that decision that you make before it goes off that that you that you end up robbing yourself of all kinds of success, right? Right? If you just shoot like a robot and don't care, you just shoot, miss, or hit, and you just correct and pull a trigger. Who cares what the answer is in the end? It's just it's X's and O's, just ones and ones and zeros. Yep. Yep. You just hit, miss, okay, and shoot and move on. And so if people can figure out how to just shoot like a robot, you're they're good.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:00

Yep. Take the emotions out of it. Yep. Seriously. Seriously. Let's take a brief break in the show to give a shout-out to one of our partners. Leophoto, official tripod of the Precision Rifle Series. When the stage calls for a stable position and a solid support system, more and more competitors are turning to Leophoto to provide the stability shooters need for glassing, building positions, and making precise shots under pressure. From match day to backcountry adventures, they're designed to perform when it matters most. Go check them out. Leophoto USA.com. Well, man, I wanted to ask you uh while we're on here too. Uh we have a mutual friend, Tony Wang. Right? Yeah, we we probably should go down this road. Yep. Um you and John Pinch uh helped design the juggernaut uh S2 and S3 tripods.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:54

Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:55

Yep. Yeah. Used it all last year too, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Yep. I've been using it for yeah, I think I think that's about when I finally got one, it was last year. Maybe, maybe you're right before that.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:07

Okay, so maybe end of 24.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:09

Yeah, maybe. But we and so since you're when you you and Beamer ran the finale?

unknown 1:19:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:15

That's where me and Tony met. Yep. I don't know if you remember that that day. I do.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:23

Uh was it on Saturday or Sunday? I met him on Friday, but but you met him on Friday. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:31

That's that's the one I told you to.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:32

Hey, look. I do remember talking to you in the parking lot at Box Canyon. Yep, that's when I 100% remember having that conversation. We're like, you're the odds favorite. You were not leaving this event early.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:45

Then I had a charter of plane home.

unknown 1:19:48

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:50

Some assholes that you cannot leave. Well, I had I'm just giving you crap.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:58

It's fine. I know. That's fine. And I was gonna go. It was my uncle.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:02

Okay, well, there you go. I I had this fear that the first year of the case. I know it was all about your first year.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:08

I knew what it was. I knew it was fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:10

That well, that Morgan King's gonna run away with this match, get a golden bullet, basically like take the trophy and say, see you later. And I was like, no, it can't be about that. You know what I mean? Um, I mean you it's how many matches did you win in 24? Uh well it was it wasn't 24, it was uh 22. 23, I'm sorry. 23 23. Um I'm looking here. So Snake River 26, uh MPA Spring 21st, and then Fox Canyon, you won. Uh Canyon Gruger, you won, Oki Showdown, you won. Second in Parma, then you won Alpha, then you won Kiergy, Windbreaker, and then you were third at the finale. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:06

It was a decent year.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:08

That was a good year. I mean, you you had a lot of momentum going down the down the stretch, and it's like Morgan's gonna win this, and we're gonna have this huge banquet, and Morgan's gonna be like, hey, I gotta take my trophy. We'll see you guys later. You know, and I'm gonna write you a check, and that's that. That was my fear.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:27

I know what it was, it's fine. I know what it was.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:31

It's not this is the first time I've said this to on on camera, but anyways.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

You know, it's fine. I just I just had to I just had to teach you because I when I met Tony, I it was like that, like in the same kind of because I told you before the match, and it was like right, that's why I was over there was to talk to you, and then I met Tony.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:50

That's right. I okay, I repeat, and I remember you talking to Tony too, uh right around that same time.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:57

That's so that's the only reason that it that that was relevant. And so I had to tease about it because it was fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:02

Yeah, okay, all right. Yep. And uh bringing that back up. I just figured you're fun. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

Uh which it wasn't a big it wasn't a big deal. Uh actually called my dad and I was like, hey, I don't know what I'm gonna do here. And he goes, Well, I wonder if Dave will fly out there and get you. He needs some he needs to um fly that thing. He needs hours.

unknown 1:22:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:25

And I was like, really? And he's like, Yeah, I'll bet he would. He says, I'll I'll uh I'll call him. We'll uh it'll probably we'll probably beat you out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:36

No doubt.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:39

I was so I we flew his he has a twin paro um sessioner and and we flew that from there to Washington. So he flew from Utah to Kansas to Wichita. I met him there, and then actually, no, it wasn't even Wichita. I can't remember where it was.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:56

It was some it was a little in the regional deal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:00

Yeah, we flew into there and then flew straight to Washington. Yeah, we stopped in Cody, um, Wyoming. Yeah. For uh fuel. He thought we might have to fly, uh stop twice, but we made it to Cody. We had to win good, and then we then we went to Washington. He slept on the couch and I went, I went to uh I had to see I had to start for rotations. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And went to school that morning.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:27

I made it, figured it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:30

I was like, because I I couldn't miss. I had finals. It was just it was what it was. Like it was like, and and I was like, that's why I was telling you. I remember telling you, and I was like, I dude, I can't be in two places at once, and uh I know what's gonna win. I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you. And you're just like, you are not effing leaving. And I says, Wow, I mean it comes down to it. I'm sorry, I don't know what to tell you. It's just like it's not it's not personal, it's not anything, it's just yeah, but I was like, maybe I can figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:01

You figured it out. Yep, it was fixed. Did you tell anybody else that story?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

Uh no, not really. I mean, yeah, I've said I've said it a few times, like like a few people, but it's not like not in a bad way.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:11

I've never been such an asshole. No, I've never said that. No, I know, man. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:17

It it is uh no, not like that. Because that wasn't the intent of it. It was more of like I I knew what you because you said this is my first year, it can't be like that. And I was like, okay, but then as soon as uh Kale won it, I was like, shit. I was like, I could be on the plane. Yeah, could have been, yeah, but no, it it is fine, and it was great. Yeah, uh um, but anyways, so I go over there and I see Tony and I'm like, hey, what's up? And he's like, hey, I want you to hey Morgan, and you're Morgan, right? And I was like, yes, that's that is my name. And uh and we start talking, and and and he's like, Would you would you try something? I was like, Yeah, I mean, and I and I I started feeling it and stuff, and I was like, Well, first thing, what's the overlap on these legs and stuff? And I took it apart, looked at it, and I was like, well, first thing I'd change to that right there. Yeah, you gotta make that tighter because this thing is like kind of like you can push on this leg and it's got some flex to it. And yeah, I was like, I was like, because it's the joint right there. Watch, if I overlap it, and I showed him if I overlap it some, look, I can already get some more stability out of these legs. Like, and so he's like, and then and then uh I he's like, Well, what do you think about this? And I was like, Well, I don't really don't like it. Yeah, yeah. And then he's like, Okay, well, I did design that one, and I was like, oh sorry. And then I was like, Oh, well, sorry. And then he's like, and then he sits there and I start talking to him, and in his defense, like, right, like he like looked at it and he's he's like, he's like, would you be willing to like try some of these and like maybe like we could you maybe like help us get one right? He's like, Do you mind if I use your idea there of the overlap and stuff? I see because you can make that spacer longer, there is no reason. I says, I know you won't get the same spec out of the tripod, but you'll get more stability out of the tripod. And if you're trying to sell something to this game, it's stability, like 100%. Like it just is what it is. And he's like, Okay, and so then so instead of taking it as like a blow, he took it as a positive, yeah. Yep, because there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:31

He's very receptive, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:32

Yeah, yeah. A lot of people, if I would have told him that, they would have been like, nah, I know what I'm talking about, like this is it, and he was just like the opposite. And I was like, Well, I'll try it, you know, we'll talk, you know. And then and then he starts talking to me about do you want to come up with a line of tripods? Because I think we could probably set up a line around you, and then and then he's like, and then the other guy, he's like, I want to get a hold. Do you know John Pinch? I think and I was like, Yeah, me and John are friends, and he's like, he's like, You think he would uh want he's a he's uh we've been trying to get get hold of him. Maybe you want to like kind of do a collaboration with him too, you know, on the hunting stuff. And I was like, sure. And then me and John are talking about, I was like, why don't we just do them all together? Yeah, you know, and then we'll just we'll both kind of have input on it and stuff. And so and because he's like, I'd like a really lightweight tripod, you know, and so that's one of the next things that's coming through as we okay me and him have been testing that one for a while, um, and and getting the head dialed in and like some stuff like that. See, it took us a long time because well, for one, you gotta translate everything, sure, and there's a language, not not really translate, but there's a language barrier, right? Yep. Uh a little bit. Like I remember sitting there and I had a two vets that's stupid stiff. I can lock those legs in with the screws and the two and those gliophotos. Because he told he sent me. So me and John, he's like, I want you guys to have all that you need to see what we have, and then. kind of go back and look at them and then go for go forward from there, see what you like and go forward with that and have ideas. So we got a almost one of everything almost.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:12

Every size, all of it. Like it was like we had, I had, I had boxes of tripods. Yeah. And heads and pieces and all this. Because they just sent them what you like from each one of them. They're like, what do you think about this? And so I went through them all and I was like, I like this and I don't like this and like I like this wrap on this tripod leg. Like this is a better and he's like yeah that one it costs a little bit more to make you know of course and then picked out all the premium features. Yeah and he's like he's like well what about this and you know and they had some ideas and they're like what about a leg lock thing and I was like well that would be great because in my mind I'm like I've always liked tripods I can crank the the leg down and make them stiffer right well it turns out I had so I had to make because this is how much of a language barrier you think you're talking in English and everything's being received but it's not always like because we're we'll have a conversation yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and then but there is some sort of like the way it's interpreted because there's two things there's a shooting barrier language barrier right because like yeah if you and I have a a like have a conversation it's going to be different than if somebody that's never shot before has a conversation exactly right. Yep. So somebody that so you can understand what I mean when I say I lock the legs down right so it makes the stiffer because there's two screws in each leg and and a and a washer a couple of brass washers in there that you can kind of squeeze on and create some more resistance right yep so that that leg can't collapse in. It's a little harder to deploy but but it is it is that's exactly it's also harder to to actually collapse collapse. So but that's can be a benefit you know when you're moving and doing stuff well that was like yeah yeah yeah then didn't understand right type of deal yeah but and then you're like okay I gotta so I had to make a video and I would hold the the tuvets at eye level and then drop it and the and show that the leg on that one would stay like this. So I would drop it on the two legs down one leg up drop it and then it would stay boom and then I would take the other one and do the same thing drop it and it would go to the ground. Yep and then and I said that's bad. The other's good yeah you know and then and then they're like oh because they in the camera world I guess that's a no no or not as there's not yeah it's not a nobody would ever do that with yeah like you don't you actually want it easy to deploy because you want her to get a quick shot and be stable.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:50

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:51

So they want to be able to deploy it fast and they don't worry about they're not they're not moving the tripod like we are and like having to push a tripod sometimes so they want it to stay out.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:01

Exactly and they're never they're they're probably never putting side weight on that thing too you know as as as weird tripod support. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:09

Yep and so that's not a benefit to them and they had actually built it into the system to where you could only go down to certain tightness and then it and then you get no more out of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:18

And so I would strip screws trying to tighten those things all kinds of stuff. Turns out they just needed to change the brass insert in there so then you could get more resistance out of it. And we found that stuff out and and it was all about this like what they thought was a good feature versus what we thought was a good feature. It had nothing to do with it being a crappier tripod it was actually more to do with what they thought was a benefit what versus what we thought was a benefit. Sure different applications it has yeah and so like it it worked for that world but doesn't for ours and so then when the leg lock idea came around too now it makes it to where you can have the best of both worlds. You can have one that that is just I still like some resistance but I don't need it to be like crazy stiff you know um and then you can lock it out.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:06

Exactly so it it you get the best of both worlds and then quick deploy and it and you pull that the like I don't want to call it center cup but it's right underneath the center cup where you pull that down now they're good to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:19

And then there was a and then there was another feature on a different tripod that had that where you could drop in a center column or you could drop in a top or whatever and it was still had a narrow base and all that type of stuff and I was like that's the way to do it because I I loved that about a bowl where you could just pop your head off and throw it on your pack with with all your stuff and reduce some weight on it so it was easy to move. And then also for like traveling and stuff you could take your head off really easy throw it in your pack or whatever and then have just a tripod I really liked all that about it but hated how fat it was at the top and all that part. So I was like screw that and it is kind of nice having a center column uh for like when you're like moving from stage to stage and you don't want to just move it up an inch or down an inch especially when you're in the mountains. Yeah exactly it's so easy. Yeah and so that's how that's where that came about as I was like I want to roll that feature into it because then we still get the small apex still get the benefit of the ball or the bowl um all that type of stuff and then and then it just took time of like getting the tripod testing out the leg lock oh that leg lock sucks don't use that leg lock can't have that one uh yeah you know this leg's too short or this tripod's too short we need to go to a different one put put marks on the legs so we can know where I graduated yeah you know and then you know he was like look if you if you do this we're gonna we've got the biggest tubes available right now and we'll just we'll put those in your tripod if you want that and I was like okay so then we did that and changed the wrap and it's a little bit more expensive to do that wrap but that's a better it's a stiffer leg. Yeah yeah and and when we changed all this stuff you know we got to a point where it was like okay this is this is probably the best thing we can do like I mean I don't know what we're gonna do different really uh because I feel like we did enough but we did plenty of I would say there was some innovation in there between you know Leo Photo and us and arranging things and making sure it works. And then I'm telling you it's crazy uh I don't know how much you've been around one but you get you get put your gun on one of those versus really anything else.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:39

Yeah it it's yeah it's it's clear to me that you guys I mean you guys built this for shooting you know yeah um so I I got an interesting question for you. So the there's you guys came up with two versions the S2 and the S3 which basically is how many sections the legs are right the S2 is inverted and the S3 is standard like the with the collars uh at the top right what was uh what was the evolution of that okay so the first so I wanted to have the most stable tripod period available like you can't like it can't be touched that's what I that was the goal in the in the in the beginning and so that S2 came around because of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:26

If you want to talk about torsion uh like torque on it and having something that that resists as much torque as possible that and and that that kind of that stability there it comes from the the the top section that the section that ties into the A got it so you you got the fattest tubes at the very top yep yep and it and it's crazy how much different that is like if you if you get on the S2 versus the S3 it's pretty evident which one is more no I'm not saying that that's the other one's not stable. It's just there's a sacrifice um and and so if you're like wanting the most stable thing available period that's it like it's just that's it that's it it you can't any you can hang on it you can do whatever you want um but it's it's wild like I was sitting there and I I heard a story about somebody teaching a class and they were talking about putting some flex in the tripod leg and somebody had an S2 with them and they're sitting there and he's like you know you'll get on there and you got to get to where you can kind of you'll be able to push into leg and do this or whatever and you can kind of push on it and he grabbed the S2 to kind of give that example and then he's like never mind this one doesn't do it and then got rid of that and then then then okay see this one that's what I'm talking and he and he's like dang that thing I'm pretty sure that guy uses one now so that that sounds like a Justin Watts deal. Yeah it wasn't Justin but it but uh I'm close aren't I no no it actually was one of them okay okay but but uh yeah when I heard that story I was like oh that's that's kind of cool um that is yep but it it was like yeah it's just like that's what we was going for right now that the S3 though that was like okay how do we get the best of like what's a good compromise of like okay portability stability um speed because it it it does collapse a lot smaller for sure yes it's a three section it's gonna come down a lot more now you know the the another disadvantage you can't run in your caddy stuff uh with those if you're gonna you need the static yep well yeah and you're sacrificing a little speed on the on the traditional right like because it is faster with it inverted no question but well faster to deploy but but how often do you go to a match do you have to deploy it on the clock anymore the and because that that that created so much of a of a gimmicky environment where you had then you were like okay if we're going to this match we have to have a two section that's inverted like there's just no way around it um yeah but if we're it if we go back to this place where we don't have where we can set our stuff up and do all that well it's sure nice to be able to if if you like a caddy you you can run a caddy or whatever um but it's it but even if you were at that match it's still like I've ran several I used to run a standard I didn't have it I never really had it inverted um yeah but I could I could run that thing out do them all really fast and still use that tripod it was not it wasn't a problem and so I was like this is a great balance of like we have the most solid tripod period and then but also it's really fast like it's fast plenty fast like you're you're giving a couple of seconds but who cares uh you're gonna you're gonna be fine yep and now with that being said we we are having the s2 inverted coming out though so there will be that option okay it's coming out the uh s3 inverted yeah no two inverted it's coming out okay like July August September ish something like that okay okay they're making them right now anyways awesome awesome the s yes three inverted yeah um those have already been out those are in the water okay okay allegedly I don't know and then like everything that did come out though it was like I hear there's like at Mountain Forest their website I guess has a few tripods in stock everywhere else I've heard of I think they're gone they're they're all gone yeah yeah I even man I tried talking to Tony um I think it's right after SHOT show I'm like buddy I I have a couple tripods I need to replace and I'd like yeah if I can get an S2 and an S3 like I'd be yeah he's like I'd love to give you one I am so back ordered right now like we it ain't happening. I'm like that's all right I'll be patient yeah it was funny because we when we did that S2 so the first run of the S2 came out right that's that's all that's came out they I can't remember how many of them they made I think they made like 150 of one and 50 of the other or something like that. Well yeah that first that first run came and was gone in like a few days.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:22

And then after that the photo was like so you guys had mentioned that you wanted also like an inverted two section and you said this yeah we'll whatever you guys wanted that'll we got their attention yeah they were they were like yep they decided that I guess I guess if we listen that we'll sell tripods I bet our friend Tony there probably had he probably had to convince his the rest of his corporation right manufacturing and operations and all that I bet all along the ways like guys this is going to be good like please like just you know we have the two best guys that we can think of in this this space like these are going to be fantastic tripods they're gonna sell everybody's gonna love them um you know he probably put a bunch of equity in there and thankfully it's paying for itself yeah no and that's what people are like oh it's made in China and I'm like yes it is made in China but here's this uh if if if the Americans would ever have listened because I've said stuff maybe maybe we wouldn't have this conversation but these boys will listen and they listen just fine they listen here's the other thing too I had heard and whether or not this is true or not um but these carbon legs come from two sources in the world three sources there there's really only a couple manufacturers of these carbon legs so like you know and Leo Photo's one of them like it is what it is. You know um yeah there's just not a there's there's not a lot of sources for this type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:00

So yeah no it it's yeah like they they do a really good job and they try um I I mean I have no problem supporting these guys and they've they you know like they've made mistakes in the past you know and they talk they like very open about it. And and really a lot of times it's because they don't have the like like they don't understand it like the American culture near as much you know right over there it's like everybody makes something then if somebody makes something there's no like intellectual property is not really a thing. No it is what it is. So it's like if one person starts making it then everybody makes it and then they all just make it period it just is what it is. And then and so but they have in to their defense have have been like you know no we don't want to do that. We want to play nicely with everyone and then and so but if they get an idea pushed in front of them and they think it's good they're gonna try it. And so like there was some people from a different country that ended up ripping off and a they they took something and like acted like they were prototypes and sent them to them and said can you make this and then they I know exactly what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:10

And then and then all of a sudden like the day after releasing it uh that guy was like uh hey what's up and yeah and then they you guys copied my design they're like we didn't copy your design we copied this one from yeah this got one from over here it was from New Zealand it was it was New Zealand yeah yeah yep and then uh they just are like oh my bad and they're done with that yep that was it yeah and they totally scrapped that public apology and everything and I'm sure that cost them quite a bit of money too because they had to probably I I don't know how much money but it cost them a little bit of money to do it. I'm sure yeah they probably had they threw everything away and all their their time and effort and and then all Tony's effort I mean Tony Tony came up to Wisconsin for a regional match you know just to basically hang out. Yep you know um he he traveled all over the country the first couple years that he was he was doing this and um I've I've nothing but good things to say and and Tony's a great guy he works hard. He is a great guy Leo Photo supports the hell out of the PRS and the shooters you can't go to a pro series match and not find a pile of their certs right like they're they're supporting the heck out of the the shooters and the match directors like hands down. So um and if for any partner out there that's listening or anybody that's like hey I really want to get involved in the PRS like Tony followed the model right which is go out and get involved. Make sure everybody knows who you are he's been at the gap grind like every year right like he'll be there this year. He'll be there this year he came to finales like he's still coming to finales um he's present right like that's a big part of it too support the match directors right and if that means get some certs out on their tables like yeah that's that's a huge thing for match directors like it's a it's the one thing that is the least amount of fun if you're putting out a two-day pro series match and if you know that you know Tony Olio Photo is going to support you like it makes it easy.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:08

You know um yeah do that be present support the match directors you can't lose you know and if you're looking to try to like innovate in order to like become relevant too it's probably not a bad idea to get a hold of somebody that's good and just listen his relationship with you and and John Pinch like yeah it's it's awesome. Yeah he's done a really good job company's awesome they support the heck out of us um they couple great products here um you know like let's talk about shooting tripod rear right when you first started shooting you didn't you never not once no no it wasn't even it wasn't even thought about like it's there's a couple of things that weren't even there there was no game changers and there was no tripod rear before we started uh and so the whole the sport was played different right we didn't we didn't have to yeah nobody thought that it was it that you had to like arca Swiss a plate bag yeah onto your gun because that was dumb we only had for one we had pick a tinny we didn't even have arca no and so so you put a pick rail on there for your bipod or a swivel stud whichever one you had i i actually had an Anschutz rail on the bottom of my rifle oh yours boozy because you can just switch it you could yeah it was a uh a Sako TRG is what I was shooting. Yep yeah so it was sweet I had the I had a I had a swivel stud on mine for the most most of the time and so I just had to take that off or leave it on.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:42

Most of the time I just left it on but then I would take a little rear bag that had little uh bungee strap that I could tighten and and if I could go over the barrel and everything too but most of them I just go over the barrel tighten it up and it would stay there and then you set your gun on top of it and then you would figure out some way to have a bag on top of your knee or or like on top in your lap or something and that's how you uh I got a picture I gotta I gotta try to get this thing off the wall and show you because like it it checks all the boxes everything you've just been talking about. Right? This is this epitomizes the sport in 2017 I think yeah so we're shooting off of stupid blue barrels.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:26

That's what I'm freaking talking about right there.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:28

Yep there's that's how you used the bag pre-game changer well actually no no that there's a game changer I was using it here.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:35

Yeah that's so that was the first time so game changer came out the spring of 17 this would have been like fall of 17 I think yep yeah or yeah maybe spring of 18 I don't even know but I don't know if you can see it here but I have the ammo tucked up in my hat.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:52

Heck yeah because this Sako TRG only can have a seven round mag this TRG42. Yeah so you love stuffing in that hat that works man yeah when people thought they needed two round holders and I said I got one right here baby exactly yep just right quick and easy right there just great mind say alike I'm telling you it's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:14

Yep so when all right 2021 2022 it was tripod root became a thing it was probably before then because I I know I used it 17 a little bit 18 for sure 18 we started using it like crazy it kind of was a west coast thing a little bit yeah because well your props sucked yeah exactly we shot a lot of blue barrels well here's the reason why out out east you have limited space for ranges and stuff like and a lot of the grounds private already so it's like well if you want to shoot you it it creates a it creates a demand right now all of a sudden you have you you have a demand for a place like gravestone or you have a place like KM and stuff like where a guy within two hours well he'll drive out there and shoot on on a Saturday Sunday or whatever and then go home. Yep and so now all of a sudden because you have demand you can have it well out west why would you ever be a member of gravestone? Yeah the only reason there's square ranges that exist is because contract work SWAT teams all that type of stuff they have a place they can go train and so like in price that that shooting facility where where Paul runs his manage that's yeah that's that's the only reason that one exists is from government or from the all the counties they'll go there and do all their training yeah and some and some of the other um I guess whatever they are unit things and then and then they'll run matches out there. So they so there's a little bit of demand for it but other than that you could be so there's the range you could be five minutes away shooting however far you want in the desert just if you're me you just shoot rocks. Yep like go out and do it. Like I would do that all the time. Like if I couldn't get to my range or whatever, it's like I'd just be in the mountains in five minutes shooting rocks.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:07

There you go. Right. And shoot off whatever. So you're you could be shooting off a clipped into a tripod.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:12

Yeah, you'd be clipped into a tripod, shooting off a rock, shooting prone or whatever. But then the other thing with that is is because there's so much ground, right? Is and there's no pub, there's no ranges that are like that. So you have nothing that's permanent, right? You don't concrete in a barricade because that thing's gotta go down. Like you know, it's Sunday night when they're doing awards, somebody is taking the range down, or they're taking it down that night in the dark. And so it's like it's a different dynamic. So yeah, you you know, you have a lot of like like your your props are made out of plywood that can be broken down, folded up, or you know, like blue barrels, things like that. They drive a tractor up there, shoot off the tractor, track over, exactly, all stuff like that where it's not dedicated there, or you have like you know, where you talk about field matches where where it's where then you're out in the field and you're shooting off of rocks and weird things, high angle shots where you gotta use a lot of bipod or whatever. So now all of a sudden you're you're adding these weird things in there, and then temporary props of like like uh shooting off a like say those stupid blue barrels, and and uh like I remember ones where you had to like they would it would just be one barrel, and it was the barrel had to be you had to move the barrel three times, you know. It'd be away from you, it'd be sideways to you, and then straight up the ball. Standing up, you can pick ever whichever one you want to start on, but you had to do that whole superior. You had to do all three, and now now the sissies that they go to the matches are pissed if if it's not that thing's not concreted to the ground, yeah, or at least staked in, no problem.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:58

Yeah, we had those, we had those barrels at the barrel maker. It might have been a year. Were you there that uh when Shannon K was there?

SPEAKER_00 1:52:06

Yep, I think so. When you had that stupid helicopter playing that freaking fortunate sun.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:11

Come on, that was epic.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:12

It was epic, it was, I mean it was, but but I mean if you had to do the RO, could you mean that the RO's coming out of his ears?

SPEAKER_04 1:52:19

I know the RO Ben Schumacher, shout out to him. He it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:22

I'm not I'm just giving the only reason I say it was stupid because I had that stupid pipe in there rolling.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:28

Yep, yep, yeah, you're right. Yeah, we had to shoot off of that. Um it was so the it was awesome. The blue well, imagine well, you wouldn't be able to do tripod rear there because it was the pipe was on the other side of the the helicopter.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:42

Listen, I felt at home. It felt like it felt like a mash at home. Like like having to like shoot off a weird stuff like that. Here Clay was just bitching and moaning the whole freaking time. And then I'm like, because then we had to go to the deer blind that not much later, and he's like, That deer blind is stupid. That I can't believe we'd have to shoot out of that thing, and I cleaned it.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:03

Yeah, there you go. There you go. I think we had a chair in there too. You could turn the chair around. Yeah, you could turn the chair around, get a bag on it, no big deal. No problems. Exactly. Yeah, that's how you shoot that. Yeah. Oh man. It's so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:16

It's just the yeah, no, it it it's it was a little bit different back then, you know. You just had to you just had to think differently, and then and so because of that, there became a necessity to innovate, and then the tripod rear thing comes along, and then it was like, okay, now I'm not just loading into this thing trying to make a tripod out of me and the prop and and my legs like it. I don't have to do that. I can I can now try to make this better.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:43

Kind of float your rifle and and and support it enough and see everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:47

The idea was is well, the front of my gun is not going to be that stable, but I could how do I make me so that was my my thought since I started is I is I realized early on, like in those situations, that it's not about getting your gun stable, it's about getting you stable. And so, how do you get bone support, like engaging no muscles?

SPEAKER_05 1:54:10

Tripod stance, yeah. Yeah, the the uh PRS stance, yep, that over at the waist, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:17

Getting your weight centered and everything and get in aggressive stance, but not too over in front of it, learning to catch the rifle instead of load it and all that type of stuff. Like learning all those things was was good, and that's something that people don't have to do now, right? They can they can stick their hand on top of their scope, back off the rifle, and slap the trigger and and uh and hit most of them, you know. And so it's a different it's a different era, and and it doesn't mean anything's wrong with it. I mean, I mean you just look and it's just evolved. Yeah, I I talk about that match, uh that the quiet ride, my first one. With that match, that was at the desert tech training facility in in up in northern Utah, and not where it was later on. It was it was a really cool facility, it was a lot of high angle stuff. And it I think back on that course of fire, and I think that that would be like a very high 90s percentage course of fire. Now, yeah, like 95. No, 70. He was the only guy in the 60s. 70s with Scott DiCapio. Uh after that it dropped into the 60s. And I mean, that course of fire though, yeah. I mean, we would have we would we would have spoke that competition now. Like, I remember thinking like that this is like hard and all that stuff, and didn't know how he was doing, but like, you know, it would it was a blast. And that's what that's the other thing that gets me is people are like, oh, we can't retain people if we're shooting 70%. And I'm like, you guys don't you guys weren't around, I guess, huh? Because because when I started, like if you shot over teeth kicked, then yeah, the well, well, we it didn't feel like it, it felt fun. Yeah, like because if the goal was to shoot better than 50% a lot of times, like for me. Yep. And if I shot over 50%, I did pretty good, you know, and it was fun. Um and so we but we have this idea that we all need to be shooting and cleaning all these stages, and it's like you realize I won the region, I won our region without ever cleaning a stage until the region finale in 2017 when I won won the region.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:29

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:30

So like it was a different time, yeah. Like uh and it was still fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:39

Yes, yeah, I remember it's a relative thing, like you don't not every bullet has to hit the target to to to to bring joy, like no.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:48

I remember so that so those price matches, a guy ran these matches for years, once a month at that range. I was telling you the SWAT in Utah or whatever, they all use it, and that's why it's Eric. Well, so once a month we'd go down there, it was like me and Mike Anderson and Paul Higley and stuff. And there was a time where they kind of like we we stopped going to them for a little bit just because there was other matches to go to, and so and it was a long ways away, whatever. But you would go to it every now and again when you want to. Well, I started going to some some of the the bigger matches or whatever. 2018 I was going to a bunch of the NRL matches and stuff, and uh, but I made the PRS finale through the region thing 2018. Yeah, that was my my first time going to that, and and I was a whole different shooter um than than 2016-17 when I'd been there, and like I remember my first time going there, it was usually at seven stages, so it was out of 70. And if you shot in the 40s, like that was pretty good, and I shot like a 44. Um, and that was well, he did not change the course of fire very much ever. Like it was like you shoot like the same almost course of fire every week, yeah. But it was good, it was still a good deal. Like, but you go shoot this stage and that stage of the same targets, like so you knew it was, but it was fun. It we weren't ex you knew what you were doing when you went there. Yeah, he had like 10 stages and he would rotate, he would pick seven of the 10 stages, and he would just go through.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:14

If you were to do that today, are you cleaning all seven?

SPEAKER_00 1:58:17

Well, so we went back there, me and Mike Anderson before we went to the finale, me, Mark, Mark Anderson and Paul Higgle or Paul Dallin. And when we went back there, I think I shot me and him tied for first, and I shot a 68 or 69. Out of 70. Out of 70. And then um that's yeah, that and then Paul Dallin and uh and um Brian Black were right behind us for like 67s. And and and they were like, holy smokes, and then we've won we beat them by like six seven points. But it was like a whole different ball game when we showed up that time. Yeah, you know, like it was like we we uh we were different, different, you know. And so um yeah, to be able to see that, and that was kind of the first time like I I I gotta shoot a 2016 match, and it was in that was I think it was actually I think it was 2019, and it was and it would, but it was after we'd just gone to the finale type of deal.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:23

Got it, yeah, yeah. And so yeah, yeah. Came back a different shooter, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:28

We were we that's awesome was a whole different ball. And but but like I said, it was it was fun, and I don't want to be like, yeah, everybody's sissies today, but but there is that I it is so much more interesting though when you can shoot a match that that challenges challenges you. And I know we're scared of doing that today because we don't want to challenge the the little guy so much, and and we don't want to because we think that oh, it's gotta be all about the the the little guy. And I'm not saying that that it's not important to retain people and all that type of stuff, but it's like one of those things where they talk about mentally, just like is in general, like when we talk, you talk about whatever you talk about, if you apologize for something, you know, you're like you somebody comes to your house and you open the door and you go, sorry about the mess. Well, you don't know if they're even thinking about that, but now they are. Now they are, and so now they're looking around like, oh yeah, it kind of is a mess or whatever, you know. Yep, but you don't remember what they was thinking before that. But so if you just change that by not saying that, then they don't, they're not, then they're not expecting anything different. And I think that's what happens now is we get oversensitive, thinking that we're, you know, kicking somebody's teeth in or whatever, but in reality, you don't know. They they might maybe have them as fun as anybody and have zero expectations of what they do what they wanted when they showed up.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:50

Yep. You know, I I've shot Clay's match three or four times now, and the first time I went out there, I I I remember the feeling we were probably you know sixteen and sixteen or seventeen stages in. I I don't remember if you ran 18 or 20, but it were three or four from the end, and finally it was a single distance stage. Now they the targets were all the same distance, but they were you know spread spread out. And I was like, oh thank god I don't have to write a huge dope card again. And it but it was just like a mental thing, right? Yeah, um and and I I shot awful out there, but it was one of my most fun matches that year, and I I felt like I took a lot away from it, and you know, as the reason that was the first year I went, and it's the reason I went back and go back and go back. Like I it's it like I know going to that match is gonna make me a better shooter. Yeah, right. Um and and becoming a better shooter is what I want to do. I don't I'm not looking, you know, like wow, I I hit 90% of the targets. You know, like that doesn't that brings me joy for a minute. But in the long run, it doesn't, it doesn't it doesn't do it for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:08

Well you know yeah, I agree. And and I think there's a different there's there's but there is people out there that there's not not everybody everybody has a different outlook on things, it's based on whatever their stuff is.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:21

Yeah, that yeah, what I'm saying is this for me, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:23

And that's totally fine. I I mean I was like you, like I wanted to go do hard stuff because it's fun, you know? Yeah, like and that just is what it is, but not everybody thinks that way. But I I to your credit, I really think it's a great step in the right direction to be able to change like how the scoring is just because now it it changes the incentive how scores are incentivized. It also and what people don't think about in that regard is when it when you incentivize the way it was before, it was incentivized in a way that it could be manipulated or at least um taken advantage of. So then it incentivized a certain style of match, and which was and and a certain and location, and so everybody's like, oh that it's it's hard on the shooters or whatever. Well, that was hard on match directors because somebody that was more creative and put more innovation into their course of fire was was actually punished. Yep. And so for the love of the game, they got screwed, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:27

I do. And and so, and so I'm like that, like like Paul Dallin, you know, you think of like it to me, that's one of the best courses of fire in the country, if not the best. It's just so well thought out and fair because he the way he loads the difficulty, he he he backwards it, you know. So you everything is it it's it gets progressively harder with less time, and so you can either choose to like and he gives you just enough rope to hang yourself, and you get to choose whether or not you want you want to swing or hit him. Yep, and so uh that's that to me, like that that in innovation and that that creativity uh needs to be rewarded and stuff. And so I I like the where this is headed because now all of a sudden a guy a guy can take a risk and go shoot something like that. Yeah, well a match director can take a risk even.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:22

And like and put a target up there or put a stage up that you know that can maybe you know be a little bit more difficult, and then it's not it's not gonna be like, oh, it's the end all be all now screwed everybody or whatever. And then now I do I do know that there's this opposite thought of like, well, yeah, but the density of shooters in certain locations is gonna be, but I'm like, but I don't think you understand. Like when yeah, you're thinking of it in placements, and I think of it in percentages. When 80 guys show up and three of them are our top five shooters, versus if there's 250 guys show up and ten of them are top shooters, well, we got the same percentage of dudes. Like, yeah, you're still beaten, it's a percentage thing, and and not everything can be perfect, but you know it to me it it it's just like one of the things where it's heading the right direction. People need to trust the system and and know that like if it was 270 to make the finale last year or 280, maybe it's gonna be 260, 250 to make the finale.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:24

It's it's probably 10 points less, yeah. Yeah, yeah, maybe 15. Yep. Yep, yep. No, we we had a you know, I I honestly I I did not have the appetite for making that huge change.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:36

I know you didn't.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:37

Um which is why you know it was voted. I put a bunch of yeah, I well, I put a bunch of trusted people that I uh really have a lot of respect for and I know that really respect the sport and all that. I and I said, hey, you guys come up with what what the best plans are and then we vote on it, right? Um you know, it doesn't mean I I don't have an appetite for change. I love I love change. I love uh you know pushing the boundaries and making things better and doing all that. But you know, it was one of the it was one of the things that uh kind of scared me, you know, like if we make a really terrible change here, it's gonna hurt us, you know, and energy livelihoods. For sure. Yeah. Um you got a lot, right? Now we Yeah, I do. Yeah. I mean, I love engineering. I don't I don't want to go back to it though. Right. I want to do this. Um I mean we could always undo something, but yeah, it's gonna cause damage. So um honestly, now that I've seen I've seen a lot of evidence from it, and you know, we went through all the models and everything, like I do think it was the best thing that we could do. Um yeah, you know, there's there's folks like I'll just say Prentice, right? That it um took away a little bit of the strength of of Texas PM and them being able to really cater to uh cater to the local community trying to earn as many points as possible, um you know, shooting uh a 20-stage match that has 30 targets out there, you know, and they're all big. Um you know that there was gonna be casualties either way you look at this, right? But should all those folks, just because they shoot, you know, uh a few uh pro series matches of that style, should should they all qualify for the pro series finale?

SPEAKER_00 2:07:35

Exactly. And then when you take those same, there's some guys maybe up in from Washington that maybe freaking shoot and shoot freaking good. And then you But they always show up and Nick Gheddarze's. Yeah, I was gonna say, but you only know of you only knew of me and Mick Nick Ghadarzi when we was up there, right? And maybe and Jake Vibbert. Because because we won whether we was here or we was there or anywhere, and so our points didn't we were gonna get our points. It didn't matter.

SPEAKER_05 2:08:03

You're getting nears no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:05

But but all of a sudden when it's the two of us or or or Nick shows up and he blows them out by 12, yeah, or he or or or still it's like him and somebody else, and somebody else, three people get over 90, and you gotta have 270 to get to the finale. That means three people out of out of a hundred are getting there. So that means we got three percent that get over 90 get a relevant score. While the same weekend, well, I'll just take California, for example. Last year, I win it. There you go. I won it by I don't know, whatever two points. I think five people got over 90 at that match. Yeah, right? Five people out of 85. It was eight percent got over 90 um points. Yep. That was and a relevant score last year was something like 91-2. If you if you want to take relevant as in, and I'm not saying that that anything else is irrelevant, right? Because the scoring is obviously to judge you against your peers. And so everybody's like, oh, it's it but but it doesn't judge you against your peers. Yes, it does, because it because we're trying to trying to actually figure out like, okay, how did you do against your peers? Not just how did you do relative to your peers that day at this match, yeah and the difficulty of the match scaling it, but actually like your peers also scaling it too. Yeah, and then using that and then and then getting a uh getting a score that also can be counted in the exact same um format as a match that happens literally 2,500 miles away on the same weekend. Yeah, and I can't remember how many guys that that um at the NPA match got over um 90, but it was a percentage like somewhere in the 20s. 20% of that match gets over 90 points, while at the same time, 8% gets over 90 points. When in all reality, if you're like just doing it off your peers, it's 10 10 10, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:09:59

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:00

But exactly, but then but then you don't account for it. I know what the next thing is, is is it's like, well, if that's the case, um, you know, then then some of those guys over here are like, well, but this guy's been top, he's got five bullets, you know, and this guy's got three bullets, and this guy's got two, and whatever, right? And they're all here, and so they got 15% of the field has that many bullets, and then the guys on this side of the field, there's like two or three that have been in the match, exactly, and so then they're like, Well, then how do you balance that? Well, that's how you're gonna have to balance it, is you're gonna have to we gotta balance the whole thing strength of field, difficulty of the course of fire, conditions, all that. So then we can have something actually balances across the country, sure.

SPEAKER_05 2:10:46

And so that's that's relevant, yeah, and relative, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:50

I know I didn't mean to go on that tangent, but uh I I was just thinking of my in my mind where I was where I was the question I was having, because I did have a question for you, because like you know, it's obviously relevant to you and uh um because the growth of this sport, it it's kind of great because I think of like when Shannon had the PRS, uh you know, if this if if the sport like Shannon was great for the sport because because it was structure, very, very beneficial um because Shannon was gonna make sure that this sport was successful, period. Like he was going to will that into existence. There was just no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And so and he did. And now now you're there, and now it it's like that growth time, like how to grow and all that type of stuff. And so I just know what your plans were, what you were thinking about how to grow.

SPEAKER_05 2:11:48

Man, if there's if there's any application for AI, this this is it, right? Because like we we do a lot of benchmarking. How the how With the plan of how do you grow the sport, how do you make it more professional? How do you give back to um you know the partners that put so much into it, right? And um, you know, there there are some times, uh honestly, that I, you know, a big part of our group growth, I'm like, yep, we're essentially a marketing company, right? The people who are watching this, right? And hopefully, um, hopefully getting a lot out of this content, right? I mean, hopefully there's some mid-pack shooters listening or whatever that are like, oh my God, I am never moving a tenth again when I miss. Like it's I'm going four tenths or whatever, yeah, 80% of the point, right? Like, hopefully there's folks getting out of there, but like also talking about Leo Photo and MPA and Lone Peak, and like those are all great companies that need to benefit from this. They benefit from this, they port back into the sport, right? Like they support price tables, they support shooters, they, you know, and it's sort of this life cycle of you know, bring new shooters in, expose them to stuff, they buy products. The companies that make those products support the series, which brings more shooters in, you know, they buy products and like we're all growing together for it, right? Um, we use AI to you know benchmark a lot of that stuff and and and develop plans going forward. Um here's something that I've never shared on air, um, or on a recording or whatever, and I actually had this conversation uh with Josh Bandy today. He's uh Pig River mass director. Um and this is and I'll give credit where credit is due. This is a conversation that uh I had probably six months ago with Francis Cologne, but um maybe there is a really good place for the shooter who just wants to earn 90% impacts in points, you know, um, want to go out with their buddies, make a lot of impacts, do do the thing, right? Um, and maybe that's the regional series. Maybe we need to develop the regional series more so that you have you know the one days, like it's a bowling league or darts league or volleyball league or whatever, you know, and they're they're happening regularly like they are right now, and then have maybe it's a big two-day regional match. All the regional finales are two-day matches. Maybe all that contributes to a national finale for the regional series, right? I mean, that's and I'm sure people are listening are like, oh, this wouldn't work because of this or that or whatever, but there's reasons why it would work too. There is. And then and maybe a lot of those match directors, and I'll I'll pick on Texas PM again, like they would be the perfect candidate for a national championship regional series.

SPEAKER_06 2:14:51

Right, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_05 2:14:53

Where it's hey, you know, like I used to bowl a lot, I I grew up bowling. I was you were out roping and doing all sorts of manly stuff, whatever. I was in a smoke-filled bowling alley rolling from the age of five to eighteen, I think. I was a really good bowler. Um, it was competitive, it was easy to do. Uh, but if you wanted to go to the state championship, which was a big deal, you signed up for it.

SPEAKER_04 2:15:18

Really?

SPEAKER_05 2:15:18

You know, I yeah, and I think if you wanted to go to the national championship, you signed up for it. There's no qualifying, you know? Like you can just go. Right now, all the best people were there, right? But if if you'd only bowled one season and your buddy's like, hey, let's go to the state championship, and you're like, okay, you could do that.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:39

Put your name down.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:40

Put your name down, right? And I think that type of uh scenario lends itself really well to a regional championship and you know, a regional two-day championship and a and a national championship where here you go. Um, and if we had that, then we can take our pro series and do way more to a way different level, right? Um, and I think that means um uh more, I don't want to say televised, right? But there has to be some marketability. Yeah, marketability, viewership. Um, I mean, we're part way there with five scoring.

SPEAKER_06 2:16:19

Consumable.

SPEAKER_05 2:16:20

Consumable, exactly. You have to you have to have some storylines, you're gonna have to have some villains, you'll have to have the heroes, you know, everybody knows everybody. You'll probably, you know, one of the things that I um I really like about F1 is like the manufacturers' cup, right? Like you have these manufacturers' teams, like we could very easily do that. And I'm hoping by next year, uh next year we'll have a couple pieces in place, hopefully. One, um, we'll have an easy way for folks to do fantasy PRS, probably through impact scoring and our website. So you can pick and be involved. You can consume that type of thing while you're remote. Um, but then the other thing is like get company, like if I went to MDT tomorrow and said, Hey, do you guys want to buy a shooting team? They they'd say, Yep, how many can we buy? Right? They'd buy an A, B, C, D, whatever, you know, a red, white, and blue team. It doesn't matter. They'd buy as, you know, if I went to Loopol, they'd probably say the same thing. If I went to Tate Street or at Impact, if I, you know, you uh MPA, you name it. You guys get a team together, right? And Morgan King can only play on one team, so you gotta make a decision there. You know, is it is it MPA, is it impact, is it loop, is it whoever, right? Now how about this? Those manufacturers could trade you. Right? Now we're now we're talking a completely different level. You know, of what yeah. Right, because you you know, I'm at home, maybe I'm an MDT guy, you know, or I'm a foundation guy, right? And I got all the okis. And now all of a sudden, I don't know, uh I don't want to say Clay Blackudder's gonna go shoot a manor stock. I don't think he'd ever do that, but like he got traded to Team Manners. Now what's gonna happen, right? Like now we got something to talk about. It's way more consumable, you know. There's so many different levels we could take this thing to. Um that's the stuff, that's the stuff I think about in the conversation today with Josh Bandy. I'm like, I see a future where we could do that. Um it is many years out, right? And then and then what do you do what do you do with all of your pro matches, right? We have 50 pro matches. Um some of them make the cut, obviously, to become part of the huge pro series. Some probably have to come down to a regional level, right? Um, because you you wouldn't be able to sustain a uh you know pro series with pro only. And here's the other thing maybe shooters qualify to shoot the pro series. It's not something you can just sign up for. You have to qualify through the regional stuff, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:19:04

So have you looked into the Bassmasters?

SPEAKER_05 2:19:08

Uh I yeah, I actually follow Major League fishing a little bit closer, but yeah, I have I have looked in Bassmasters.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:15

Well the MLF yeah, MLF. I don't know how the MLF works. My so I got a kid that works for us, and he he fishes like a lot and like fished in college um for and and like he's like my boss's son or boss, I I don't know what he is. Uh he's yeah whatever, but yes, he's he's he owns a practice. I'm an associate veterinarian there, and it's just the two of us, but and he uh his boy is in vet school right now, but he missed he missed uh being on the Bassmasters uh Pro Tour Um by like a couple of ounces. Like he would have been on the on tour, and on tour, you're like you're kind of set, but you have to qualify a truck, a boat, uh, all everything and you go down the room.

SPEAKER_05 2:20:11

Sponsors, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:12

And and and I've been talking to Trevor, like how do you get in that deal? Because you can you you're gonna fish like 20, I think 20 of them a year, but you're gonna make a good living. Perfect. Every other week tour.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:24

Um yeah, and there'll be some times where it's all month, and then there's gonna be months where you don't do nothing, but it's gonna be you're gonna you're gonna be fishing a lot, but you're doing what you like to do, you're making a good living, and uh you're you everything's kind of paid for and whatever. You get you get a the most of the time they get a boat a year and they can sell the boat at the end of the year, and then they get another boat and they deck them all out, do all that. So plus their trucks and everything, plus they they live in and then they have all their sponsors that pay all the rest of the stuff. And so like like it's not it it it's still pretty good, you know. Like I'm not saying I'm not gonna downplay how good it is. Like it got a good, but uh, but yeah, they gotta qualify to be in that tour and then to fish it and to stay in there. And so, you know, he's like, I'm like, how do you get in? He's like, Well, I gotta qualify. And Michael, how much money do you need to get going to qualify? Because he fishes good enough. He they win him and his his uh fiance, they fish like every couple's tournament and like singles tournament in the state, and they will win everything. Like they they clean up. No joke. And yeah, like he makes good money just fishing, just just doing that, those ones. There's like the work day uh tournaments where working men's tournaments where it's like you get off work on Friday, you fish for Friday and Saturday. Yep, and then and it's like or like they either do like afternoon ones or they uh they do like after and the Saturday.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:57

We live pretty close to a little lake up here, and there's uh I mean we're a couple blocks off, but on Monday nights, they fish our lake, or there's like three other lakes nearby. It's it's just a small bass fishing league or whatever, but it's pretty cool. Like on like three Monday nights throughout the summer, like I'll go out there and be like, this is cool. Yeah, like I mean, you know, there's no there's no boats out there with graphics all over them or anything like that, but you can tell it's like a husband and wife or a couple buddies that are you know just trying to put pounds in a live ball.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:30

Yeah, you know, and he's this kid's good at it. They they uh they hate him um around here because he'll just show up and he they they call him he because he live scoped. He's really good with a live scope.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:42

Oh yeah, like deadly with Garmin. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:45

And and him and that, and that's what Marty's boy, Caden, him and those two, like they they clean up in college because they could just they could go and they can sit, like Caden can watch a live scope, like his dad will talk about it. He'll be sitting there watching the live scope, he'll see a fish and he'll he'll look at it and he'll see a yardage and just go.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:06

Right to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:07

And he'll see him and he'll and he can walk and he can see his bait hit the water and and be like missed. Or or most of the time he hits it. Yeah, he can throw he'll he'll he can they can throw it into a hoo-a-hoo, you know, at 70 yards.

SPEAKER_05 2:23:20

Exactly. Exactly. And they're just yeah, I mean the same level of impressiveness you can do with the 6'5 creed, they're doing the fishing road. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:28

And they're just like sniping these fish. They put they put it on their nose. Like, like they'll talk about like like fish or fishing on beds. Like when they're when they're fishing them off their beds, the the big females, you know, it'll be like they don't they don't get the those those ones a lot of times they they either have to see them take it or they have to watch it on the scope because those big mamas, they just all they're doing is they're moving stuff off the bed. So you're just throwing it on there and having to hit their bed. Yeah. And you can't get too close, but you can't be too far away. You gotta be able to hit it, but you can't be you can't be close enough that they they want to move off of it. And so they'll just like sit there and they'll and they'll watch them drop, they'll watch their bait drop on a on a bed. Yeah. And it's just it's wild. Anyways, I say all that because they were, you know, we were me and him were kind of talking a little bit about this, and I was like, you could kind of maybe do that, like qualify that way. Just like when you said that, it made me think of that those guys.

SPEAKER_05 2:24:27

I there's a lot that has to happen between here and there, right? And um, you know, a lot of growth in the sport, right? Like we're I still see us as you know, we're that state polling tournament or whatever. You know, you can come out and shoot, you can do all that, right? And then really you just the only the only thing you have to qualify for is our national championships in both Rimfire and Center Fire. And um yeah, like which is kind of funny to think we made these scoring changes, which mostly impact just that, right? The qualifying thing. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:07

All is qualifying. Or it's all that's changing.

SPEAKER_05 2:25:11

Yep, and and the amount of emotions and people that are vocal about it, um is is impressive for I honestly kind of kind of a minor change, you know. Um I think once we get through an entire year I and see the impact, there will be a few people that have qualified for the finale that just won't this year, right? Like they'll probably be a couple points off, right? Um well, there'll be some that will because of this. There will be some that will, yeah, exactly. It's it's a trade. But um, but we'll, you know, when we get to the end of the year and invites and all that go out, and we can analyze it. That's that's another I love using AI. I use AI for all sorts of stuff. Like, and that's that's what I would do. I'd be like, here's who qualified for the last five years, who's qualified this year? Are there any names? You know, and then show who, you know, or uh say who who's just out of qualifying. Like, show show me who had routinely made it that all of a sudden didn't. And I bet I bet there's no smoking gun or anything. You know, there's gonna be a few people, and I bet if I called them, they'd say, like, yeah, you know, I didn't really get to travel as much as I wanted this year. I didn't get to do this as much as I wanted, or that as much as I wanted. I doubt we'll hear, like, yep, scoring system screwed me. You know, I don't think we'll hear that. But no, but I think what we need to do. Time will tell.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:33

What I think might be cool is the geography of like you see if there's a geography.

SPEAKER_05 2:26:38

Oh, another, dude, that's another perfect thing for AI, right? Like, and I man, I I oh man, the first couple 2023 and 2024, really before AI kind of took hold. I had these spreadsheets where I could look at member maps and stuff, and I use zip codes, and I basically could plot it all on Google Maps and show me little pins of, you know, I and I could turn it on and off. Like, show me where the pro members are, you know, it's pretty well distributed across the city.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:04

I remember you posting that stuff, like the density. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 2:27:07

Yes, yes, yeah, exactly. And man, that would be two or three days worth of work, you know, cleaning stuff up. I I created a map the other day, I think I had uh, well, it was for pursuit. We're working on the schedule and and and all that. And I I have all these applications or whatever, and I just put it in the Cloud AI and I said, hey, um, develop a schedule. And also I want to see a map with with a pin and on the pin information, I want where they're at, like an order um of dates. I want their you know what city and state they're in, and the name of the match and the match director or whatever. And I mean it was two minutes, not two days. You know, it's it's beautiful, dude.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:54

That's so wild, that's awesome. Yeah. What about have you looked at the archery? Have you looked at the archery stuff? How they do that?

SPEAKER_05 2:28:02

Um or have I talked to you about this? You've talked to me about this, about how to televise like the last two stages.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:28:10

Yeah. Say it on here so everybody hears it. It's I think it's a good idea. It sticks, it sticks with me.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:15

Because I always feel like there's gotta be a way to make it to where there's something, because it's so long. It's and and it's like watching paint dry. And literally, paint can dry faster, actually.

SPEAKER_05 2:28:27

Probably, yeah, especially in the sun. Yeah, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:29

So, so like, like, and I'm not saying that I I don't like watching this paint dry. I do, yeah, but yeah, but I'm a freak, right? And you know, there's a bunch of freaks needs to be consumable by a more general audience, yeah. Like like more people, like the people that are gonna get on impact scoring once or twice a day, yeah, versus the guys that are gonna watch the live feed, you know. Yeah, like that's a different group of people. Yep. And so, like in the impact scoring thing, I think is great. But could you imagine in my mind, it would I would love to see it like where the where we get to where like the the archery deal, they shoot 18 stages, yeah, and then they take, they go, okay, thanks boys. That was that was fun. And then they put up their their bows, and then they they go, okay, it's shootoffs. And then they start telling televising the shootoffs, which the shootoffs they take the top like eight or something like that. And I think there's a way we could do about 12, probably, and they shoot through, but they do it round robin style, um, and they talk about everybody. Somebody is there's color commentary when you're doing it, and these things will be like an hour, but it's it's freaking entertaining because you know they'll be like, here's what this guy came into, this is where he's been, this is where he's sitting, this is like all this stuff, like all the stats of them and how they're doing, and then all of a sudden it's like this guy needs a 12. And so, and then or or this guy needs the he needs to get banky's points, so let's just get our tens, you know. And in archery, it's kind of cool because you have like the 10 ring, and then you have uh I think it's an eight, yeah, 10 and then an eight ring. Yeah, and then you have a 12 ring off to the side that's like over here, but it's surrounded all by a six. So so so it's like yeah, you have the eight and ten, it's like that's where you go because you have like a golf ball size target. Yeah, well, bigger than that, it's like half a baseball type of type of target, or surrounded by vitals. And then and then it's like, oh, it's a 12 and a 14. I think it's a 12 and that's a 10. And then you have, but then this is like seriously a six for just to hit the animal, yeah. And then and then it's like you get a 14 or whatever, something like that. I know it's yeah, it's it's a crazy spread. And so you so these guys can like shuffle, right? Because all of a sudden this guy knows he's coming in sixth, and the only way to catch him is if he gets all 12s or 14 or whatever that is, and so there's a guy like Matt Wallwine, they're notorious for it, where he'll he'll just go in there and just peg that 12. Yeah, just 12, 12, 12, 12. He'll just sit there and like come from the back and then just 12, 12, 12, 12. You know, like like uh that that's what I've heard I've talked to.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:25

But that's what people want to consume, though.

SPEAKER_05 2:31:26

That's what people want to see, right? Like especially if yeah, where you're like, man, if this guy's gonna do anything, he's gotta gamble. Yep, right? That's fun to watch.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:35

Yep. So the first time I saw I I've really been like, I think it could work in the PRS, is because the funnest thing I've ever watched was in the 2022 World Championships after it was all done. They had the tiebreaker, and it was a three-minute stage with 13 rounds and three different props and like 10 different targets. And everybody's watching, and it was hard, and everybody showed up, like hundreds of people standing there. You could have squatters, you could have all this stuff, and there was somebody talking about it, you know, like here's so-and-so, and they got this points, and blah, blah, blah. And he's from this country, and I remember Orgain had to shoot it against somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:18

And they were shooting it like back to back, I think, at the same time, yeah, if I remember right. But it doesn't matter, you don't have to do it like that. Uh, but it was so much fun to just watch it all unfold right there, and everybody's done the whole match is done, and it was just how do these guys finish, right?

SPEAKER_05 2:32:36

And think it out loud. We could pick a pro match and do this.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:41

Yeah. Because you don't have to screw the scores up, right? That's the thing, is like when you're done with the match, the match is done for those. If there's a hundred guys and you take 12 back, well, that those 88 guys, they're gonna get their points, and they're gonna get the exact same amount of points that they were gonna get before that. But now these guys here, they can shuffle within themselves and come out different. Now there's a way to make it to where they shuffle and the spread works, but if that guy comes in with X amount of points lead, he's gonna remain that lead, but then you have a stage where it's like, say one's like the the the Geisley barricade deal that um Yeah, Drew does. Yeah, Drew does. It's 12 rounds, it's it's fast paced, moving, you know, one target. Yeah, you have it on the target, yeah. Yeah, everybody's gonna blow through it, and and you know, it's like you know, everybody's gotta work for their points, but it's exciting, you know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 2:33:42

Prone trip line, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:33:44

Over here. Yep. And then it's like, okay, this guy came in with a two point lead. Can he hang on to it? You know, and then this guy right here, he's got a you know, what what what can he do? Can he can he go and clean everything up and make this guy earn it? You know? He's trying. Trying to win his first match, type of thing. You can actually create a narrative where people will watch it, you know. Or this guy's trying to work on getting 300 points. This guy's trying to get his first win ever. Who's gonna win? You know?

SPEAKER_01 2:34:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:12

Like, can David can David get Goliath type of deal?

SPEAKER_05 2:34:15

And then that's what people want to watch. Yeah, especially if it's 45 minutes or an hour.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:20

Yeah, you can tune into that.

SPEAKER_05 2:34:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:34:23

And you can highlight real out of that too.

SPEAKER_05 2:34:26

Yeah, 100%. Maybe we just we just pick a match. I guess if there's match directors out there listening to this, like maybe we we try to arrange that, right? Where you're done and Sunday at 2 o'clock or something like that. And then, you know, like twisted barrel would probably be a good example, you know, a great place to do something like this. You know, they're they're really efficient, get done early, you know, and then we line the top 10 up. Time for shootout, boys. You know, everybody else go put your stuff in the truck and come back, or you know, if you're ready to get out of here, you had a weekend, go somewhere else, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:00

Yep. Impact makes this so efficient, too. Because you can be like, yeah, and and it's attainable by almost anybody, right? Like, say if you did, you know, 15, something like that, or 12 or whatever, you're gonna make two squads and they just hurry and flip. Those the shootoff stages are already in the book. These guys, you can have the awards set up already, like that's getting set up and everything ready to go. We're just gonna figure out where these voice stack and have a little video and talk about it and a little presentation or whatever. But but it's like we're gonna have a 30-minute break or 40-minute break after the shooting's done. Everybody look at deal. Did you make the shootoffs or did you not make the shootoffs? And you know, and it's like oh sweet, I made the shootoffs.

SPEAKER_05 2:35:41

And and you know anybody can make it. There's even a little there's even a little drama there, too, because the last stage or two of the match, people are gonna be, you know, you looking for that cut line.

SPEAKER_00 2:35:51

And you're gonna want to make it bad because then you can be on say, hey honey, I'm on I'm on the shootoffs, check it out. Yep. Like, how many of those guys and people are gonna tune in to watch their guy make the shootoffs? Like you think about the you're talking about um the fantasy stuff. What does that do to the fantasy deal? That makes it pretty freaking exciting. Now we got something to watch. This is like Sunday night football, you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:15

Like well, maybe it's not quite that, but but it could be for guys like you and I, but it can become that, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:36:21

Like, yeah, like it's like it's like it's like saying this is a fantasy football league. Well, it's not, but it is for me and you, you know. It is, and so now all of a sudden anybody that's doing that fantasy deal, well, frick, we're watching this shit.

SPEAKER_01 2:36:32

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:33

You know, so like it it there's some excitement, there's there's some reason to look at it and to watch and and to be able to see it go down, you know, and to have those types of stages, like it it wouldn't take much to figure it out. I mean, it would say it takes some effort, obviously. And I I just thought I just thought about that for a while, and I've been like, there's gotta be a way to make this more consumable.

SPEAKER_05 2:36:55

I I I agree. And I hopefully there's people listening too that that have have some ideas, but um, you know, maybe that idea, maybe that is one we try to execute this year. You know, I could I I I I honestly I think a points like twisted barrel, which is like next month. Well, who knows when this is gonna go out, but is in July, like that might be a great example. It might be an easy one for us to see if those guys want to try doing something like that. Um, maybe put a little bit of weight on it and see if we get some cameras there and do some things, you know?

SPEAKER_00 2:37:25

That would be so cool.

SPEAKER_05 2:37:26

Yeah, it would be cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:27

Uh I would just yeah, I would kill to do it. Uh just because kind of like the yeah, it's kind of like the agey cup, right? Right, right. And I I mean in like the commentary that you can get out. Oh man, that'd be so much fun. Yeah, like yeah, like uh, yeah, just so you could just have people like what would almost be cool is if there was like a live mic. Because then there's two or over there. Heck of it.

unknown 2:37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:37:54

Well, well, I used to be like not like like screwing people up, but like, but like, but but listen, I've wrote in the box enough time for money and had somebody saying, hey, you know, this is blah blah blah, so-and-so, and they're from here, and this is where they're sitting, and this is how much money they want, and they need to do this or be this or faster, and blah, blah. And that's all going on while you're sitting there kicking your horse forward, trying to get them square and everything. You you're hearing the you're hearing the announcer talk about this and and and all this stuff that's going on. And then you're you're having to this has all got to go away because it's just you and this. Like the the the clock don't care about what the announcer says about you or anything like that. It's the same thing with the wind and the targets. Like the audio is level, trigger, squeeze, and correct. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 2:38:44

You know where uh a great place to set this up would be Impact Foundation match.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:52

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:38:53

I think that's a great one.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:54

I think I think we could talk those two seconds and do it.

SPEAKER_05 2:38:58

Um oh yeah, I've signed up for it too. So I'll I'll be there. I can I can bring a PA system and a mic and all that where we could have we could have everybody because it's usually a pretty good size. Well, I got 160 people there last year and a lot of really good shooters.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:12

And I think boot suiters uh is a I love those people.

SPEAKER_05 2:39:15

Yeah, I know you do. Yeah, they don't take offense to this, but yeah. I think we could do that. I think we could. Let me let me yeah, all right. Man, we are like two hours and 40 minutes into this. I bet we could go another hour or so if we if we if we'll have to come back, we'll have to do this again. Um let's try that. Let's try the impact foundation match.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:39

I just I'm excited about this.

SPEAKER_05 2:39:40

Put it on those guys.

SPEAKER_00 2:39:41

And I think it's I think it can go so many places, and I know that you you have a lot of plans for it. And I'm just I'm excited to see well I've I'm I've already been stoked just seeing all the changes and just seeing how it grows and having good leadership at the top has been awesome to see.

SPEAKER_05 2:39:58

Well, man, it means a lot coming from me. I appreciate that. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:40:02

I mean it, I'm serious. I think this is uh this is going places.

SPEAKER_05 2:40:06

I appreciate it, man. And and thank you for coming on tonight, and uh we'll talk again soon.

SPEAKER_00 2:40:11

Yes, sir. Uh thanks for having me.