The Mindset That Built Justin Watts Into a PRS Champion

What does it take to become one of the best precision rifle shooters in the country?

In this episode, Justin Watts shares the story behind his journey—from serving as an Army sniper and overcoming life after the military to building FallBrawl, climbing the Precision Rifle Series rankings, and becoming one of the sport's top competitors.

We dive into the lessons Justin learned through failure, competition, training, and relentless practice, along with practical advice that every PRS shooter can apply to improve their own performance.

In this episode:
• Justin's military background and sniper experience
• Finding purpose after the military
• Building FallBrawl into a premier shooting facility
• How he climbed from last place to winning PRS matches
• The mindset required to compete at the highest level
• Why comparison can kill your progress
• Practical tips for improving your precision rifle shooting

Whether you're new to Precision Rifle Series competition or you've been shooting for years, this conversation is packed with valuable insights from one of the sport's most respected competitors.

Subscribe for more conversations with the top shooters, match directors, and industry leaders in precision rifle shooting.

#PRS #PrecisionRifle #LongRangeShooting #JustinWatts #ShootingSports #ArmySniper #LongRange #PrecisionRifleSeries

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Brian, welcome back to another PRS podcast with us today, Justin Watts. We all know him. He's match director at Foul Boar, JTEC instructor, AG Cup competitor, winner of matches. Justin, it's great to have you on the show. What are we talking about today, bud?

SPEAKER_02 0:14

We're gonna talk about a lot of things. Honestly, we're gonna talk about my career coming up into the sport, how comparison can be the killer of joy. I'm gonna give you a few tips for shooting matches. You guys should stay tuned and uh might learn something. Just keep it open mind.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Love it. Enjoy, guys. Listen in.

unknown 0:31

You're ready.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

In the background, I had a video. Uh it's an actually a live video of uh I did a TV show on Gun Adventure on the Sportsman's channel. And uh, which that's a commercial, but anyway, uh this live video was playing in the background. It's uh um yeah, you can see uh they bet I I went up against the six-hour people, and uh it was a big time. I don't know if you've ever seen the video or not, but it's uh they try to challenge me and they try to trick me, and they were like, oh, you know, we're gonna shoot this watch. And you see, I just smoked a center out of that watch. But that was at 200 yards iron switch with M1A. And this was live, right? This whole video is live. Well, how long ago was this? Uh like four or five years ago, maybe. But um Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Anyway, uh back when you could shoot really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

Back when I could shoot, yeah, back before I was washed up. And um anyway, uh so they thought they were gonna trick me, right? And they're like, they're like, hey man, uh, you know, we're gonna do this uh this challenge and you're gonna shoot against these guys, and uh you're gonna shoot, you're gonna try to shoot. Uh I was like, what are we shooting at? You know, and they're like, we're gonna shoot this wrist watch, and this guy pulls off this watch, and I was like, okay. And they're like, we're gonna put it at 200 yards. I was like, you better put that thing at like six or seven, but and he's like, and he's like, uh I don't think you're quite understanding the challenge here. Like, we're not using precision rifles. And I was like, What are we using? Pistols? I I can shoot a pistol, like what like just because I'm known for shooting a scoped rifle doesn't mean I I don't have other discs, but I've trained Jerry Barnhart, like I've been an assaulter, you know. I I I've deployed to combat and not just with a sniper rifle, like like anyway. They're like, no, this is this is even older than that. This is old school. And I'm like, okay, what what do you got for me? And they're like, Springfield M1A, Iron Sights. By the way, you got one shot. You don't get a fighter, you don't get uh you haven't even filled the trigger pull of this thing, like nothing. No, nothing. I got nothing. And they in the course that the guys laid down in front of me, and they taped it to the middle of a uh an uh an Ipsig, right? At 200 yards. And uh it's a 66% Ipsig. And um, the first guy shoots, completely misses the steel, like doesn't even hit the steel. Um it's like okay, like I'm thinking like, shit, I'm not gonna laugh at him because uh you have no idea what iron stuff is gonna do. Uh right. Yeah, it's like I don't I don't know if this thing's sided in or anything. So anyway, uh the next guy goes up and uh and he hits the steel. Yeah, I don't want to get too much wave for people who want to watch the video, uh, but uh anyway, the guy hits the steel, but he he like barely clips the steel. And but this time when he hits it, he like he blows one of the straps loose, like the the uh the tape pieces loose. So now I'm shooting like almost a bladed target. And I uh I lay down there and they're like, all right, you know, and of course everybody gets quiet because it's me, you know. And they're like, all right, you know, they were gonna want to pay attention to this one. And I'm sitting there thinking, like, I can't even see that damn steel target, much less to watch. Like I lay down behind this Springfield M1A, and I looked down the iron sights. Yeah, 200 yards, Springfield M1A, iron sights. The front sight post covered up, cut was bigger than the Ipsig. Yep. Okay, the 66% Ipsy. So I knew there was some right to left wind, so 308. I knew it was pretty good, it was pretty strong right to left wind. So I was like, man, I know there's gonna be some drift. I don't know what it is in in M1A terms, like like maybe this, like I don't know, you know, uh a little white on the left side of the of the of the front post, but I just I just kind of and I seen that guy had hit low, and I'm like, man, I'm hoping that guy had uh I'm hoping that guy had a good trigger pull and like it wasn't him uh because he was on a bag and he was pretty solid, so I thought, well, I'll aim a little bit high and a little bit right, and I I just kind of put the the white where I could see some white on the left side of that post, and I just kind of aimed a little high a couple inches, and uh I squeezed that round off. I was like, man, it's gonna be a good trigger pull. Like I squeeze that round off. You can see it's such you can see in the video, you see me like squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, and then nothing happens, and then I I reached to check the safety. I'm like, switch the safety off. But it wasn't the safety, it was just that heavy of a trigger. I'm like, oh gosh, I'm shooting for shooting rifles too long. Um, so then I so then I get I was like, oh, the safety is actually off. So I get back on the fire controls and uh squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. Finally a bang goes off, and everybody erupted with cheers, like, oh, he did it, he did it. And uh, and uh I could hear them through my muffs, you know, and like and they're like, oh my god, I can't believe he hit that freaking watch. And and I'm like, I'm praying that they're not trolling me because I'm about to do some like drop the mic stuff, you know. And uh I I just like pulled my muffs off and I was like, what? And they're like, you hit it. I'm like, yeah, of course I hit it. Obviously I hit it. I told you I was gonna hit it. And I just like dropped my ear muffs and walk off. And and they were like, you know, and in my head, I'm thinking, gosh dang it, I don't hope I'll ever have to do that shit again in front of L I TV because I couldn't make that shot again to save my life. Like, I did I you're gonna feel lucky to actually hit the plate. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I felt like it was a hundred percent. I mean, I felt like I felt like I was gonna hit the plate. If the rifle was sided in, if the rifle was sided in and the ammo shot good, yeah, I felt like I was gonna hit the plate for sure. But you just don't know. Like, you don't know if that gun's sided in or if it's not. No, if you had an opportunity I mean, they those things have adjustable.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

If you had an opportunity to go shoot at a hundred yards, no opportunity to right, and like, you know, send a couple yes, I would have felt a lot better about it exactly where it's hitting relative to where you're aiming and all that.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

But yeah, but if they'd have been like, oh no, bull, no bull crap, do it again, I'd have been like, I ain't got nothing to do with you. You know, I don't know how to talk my talk my way out of that one.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Let's take a brief break in the show to give a shout out to one of our partners, Precision Rifle Timer App, official timer of the Precision Rifle Series. If you shoot PRS, managing your time on the clock is critical. And the Precision Rifle Timer app from Clay Blackheader makes it easy. Available as both the standalone phone app and an Apple Watch app, it gives you quick access to stage timers, customizable alerts, and some of the best voice prompts in the industry to keep you on track during practice or competition. It's simple to operate, packed with useful features, and a great training tool for shooters at any level. Go check it out at the App Store. Precision Rifle Timer. Also coming soon to Android.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah, no, it's a rifle. I think it's called uh uh Iron Sights, 200 uh 200 yard iron sights, um gosh shoots watch, something. I don't know, it's on Gunventure. Okay, find it on YouTube somewhere. Yeah, yeah, you can find it on YouTube. Anyone wants to watch the video? It's actually a really cool video because the the mic drop part is just really cool. But just just know in in real life, in my head, I was thinking like I ain't never doing that again. Ever in my life. Like, yeah, that was a hundred percent luck right there.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, yeah, for sure. When when did Justin Watt start shooting? When and where? Where uh go back even further than that. Where are you from, Justin?

SPEAKER_02 8:12

I am from a small town in Oklahoma called Gracemont, Oklahoma. Uh it's named after two people, Graves and Montgomery, uh back in like 1920 something there, 1918. Um small town, 300 people, uh, 52 students on any given day in this in the school. I graduated with eight. Um, you know, all there was all there was to do was um get in trouble. So that's what I did. Obviously, you know me. I still I ain't changed, you know. I don't know if you changed, but I haven't. Um so anyway, uh, you know, really the my dad, my dad retired in the military, so you know, and I like to get in trouble, and he's like, listen, you need to you if you want to straighten your life out, son, you need to go, you need to go join the service. Yeah. Uh it don't matter which one. I prefer like the Air Force or or something, you know, because you could have a skill set when you got out, like in air traffic control or something. And I'm like, nah. I I I I just got done watching that movie uh uh Rangers, what is the name of it? Basic. Basic with uh Samuel Samuel Jackson, you know, and I'm like, no, I'm I'm going into Amateur, baby. Like, no, I'm 100% like no, I'm I want to do some uh some high speed stuff, you know, and uh, you know, I got an opportunity at sniper school. Um you know, deployments, the whole works, you know. Um uh moved moved up and ranked really fast. Um my uh first deployment, uh diagnosed with traumatic brain injury and some other things. What year what year is this? When you were deployed? Uh this is those this is like 07. Uh it's like 07, 07, 09. I was in Iraq. Um solder city, the whole crazy stuff, you know. Um anyway, um everybody that came back from that deployment didn't like did not know what they were getting into, you know. Like, I mean, it the solder city was crazy back then. That was and then, you know, you're going south out of Baghdad, Baghdad, you know, triangle of death, you get hit up by EDs every day. It was just, and then going north, you know, main supplier out of Tampa, going towards Taji, like it it just got pretty western. Like, you know, Iraq did it. So yeah, like most soldiers came back some sort of, you know, trauma, uh, whether brain trauma or post-traumatic stress or hearing loss or whatever, shrapnel. I've still got shrapnel. I feel like um, I can't do kind of I think it's MRI or CAT scans. Um but uh this was this was 09, like this was no problem here, right? Like, not a big deal. Like right, like you hear some 800 milligram ibuprofen and and get back out in the field and just get trained up. We're going to Afghanistan. So my uh uh you know being in a uh a sniper section, uh you don't get to train as much as you you would think you would, right? Right, right. You don't you don't you don't you you rarely I mean it's a lot more like busy work when you're not deployed, um, you know, emptying con X's and doing just stupid stuff, you know, mowing the grass and whatever. And then you every now and you get training days, and then right before you deploy, they try to pack all this stuff in these like mini sear camps or these like you know, oh, we're gonna learn how to run the bats system, which is like a thing we're using already in Iraq. It's like a facial recognition, fingerprint scanner system. Basically, like the same thing that like somebody would use to do a suppressor. Now they need to call it like a suppressor kiosk. But like we would use those. Oh, I got it. Yep. You know, but like there's like all these little mini camps, like you, you know, one guy goes to learn, you know, a language, you know, goes to language camp or or not, uh we call them uh I'm calling them camps, they're uh they're just course curriculums. Uh but yeah, anyway, like you know, right before deployment, they try to pack all that stuff in there and then um and then you deploy again. And then you come back and after every deployment, you uh you gotta you do what's called a post-deployment health assessment. And uh I I failed mine coming back from Afghanistan. They're like, hey, you have tra traumatic brain injury and uh and uh you know tra traumatic stress, yeah, some other stuff, you know, hearing loss, whatever, tinnitus. Um and I'm like Yeah This is old news. This is not any this is not anything new. Like this is uh like whatever, like I'm going to the gym. And then they're like, uh you know, my commander called me and he's like, hey, like we're you know, they're still putting you in for you know medboard. And I'm like, what are you talking about? No joke. And I'm like, and they're like, well, you could reclass. And I'm like, reclass? Like, I'm not reclassing, like, how what are you gonna be like working office or something? No. Like, so that's not me. I would kill myself sitting in an office all day, no way. So um anyway, uh, I I try to fight it, and there's nothing you can do. You just get med boarded out. Um, I did get to take over uh it C O S E of the air assault course in Hawaii for a little while while I was going through my bed process. Um and uh that's when I got a lot more downtime to actually shoot um uh competition. And uh in Hawaii. Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we go or car uh county, yeah. So so so so Schofield Barracks has its own sniper ranges, okay? But yeah, you can't use them. I mean you can, but you can't. Like every time we try to use the ranges in Hawaii, you're like they're like, sorry, like the the range is closed today. Like we don't have range control or whatever. So the only way uh I don't know how it was for anybody else uh in Hawaii it was stationary. But if you wanted to get on the sniper range, uh you had to go to Kanyohe's side into the Marine Corps base, because you could almost always get on the Marine Corps base and just use their ranges. And the Marine Corps was would just let you come use their sniper, you know, because they're scout snipers. There's just there's a s I believe I'm not somebody correct me if wrong, probably Philip Leah or somebody, but I believe that they ran a scout, a sniper school out of Kanyohead in Hawaii. Hawaii in Hawaii. Okay, yeah. It made like uh uh because they you know it's cheaper to to just train them there than it is to send them stateside to train. So um anyway, we would get to go over there and use their rages quite a bit, and we started doing some little competition against the Marines and you know, just friendly competition stuff. Nothing, nothing like PRS. Um and then I met boarded, got out, um, and um, you know, I had no life skills at all. None. Like Well, I mean, you've been military and trained there and disciplined and all that. No, yes, but I'm saying, like, you know, during during high during high school, like I went to Votec, I went to auto mechanics. Um I smoked weed the whole time that I was auto mechanics, snuck out back and smoked weed. So like I didn't have any, you know. Oh, I I I could I could change the wool and like I could like swap out a starter or something, but like after that, we start tearing into stuff, you know, I'm gonna come back and be like, what do I do with all these extra bolts? Oh boy. Uh like that was that's the extent of my my uh mechanic experience.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Yeah. Um which is crazy because the attention to detail necessary for shooting at a top level like you have is I mean, it it requires uh uh it requires a lot out of you and and remembering and all that. You just have to be into it though. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Right. Yep, right. So if you're not if you're not into that, and I wasn't. So you know, it's just like it got me out of school, you know, and I uh and this is crazy. You might not believe this, but I had the certificate to show you. I graduated valedictorian. Okay. I know it's not hard to do with a club with a with a, you know, people say it's not hard to do with a you know a class full of eight. However, you could have a class with 300 people and and have you know a hundred people be valedictorian, right? So you still have to maintain that 4.0, right? It doesn't matter if you have eight students or uh eight thousand students in your class, you still have to maintain a four point z. So highly intelligent uh through school, I did really well. I just I just had like a uh behavioral problems, right? Done a lot of authority, I couldn't I couldn't pay attention. A lot of it's probably ADHD. Uh I problems with authority, um, you know, uh just trying to be trying to be the class clown, you know, like always just trying to make people laugh and it ended up with me, you know. I I'm I'm the kid who like you know people would come to to help them with their homework, but I also had a desk in the hallway, right? So um closer to the principal's office. Yeah. So when I got out of the military, I kind of lost my purpose a little bit, right? And uh started, I kind of I kind of struggled a little bit there. Um, you know, drinking, um just kind of went through a bad phase there, gained a bunch of weight. Uh I I've got some I got a picture I I can send you later, and you'll be like, there's no way that that is just now when I was in the military, I had gotten into MMA and to G2. And um, but this was right before deployment. I I I was doing these amateur fights. Um probably gonna get myself in trouble talking about this on uh with the Oklahoma Fight Commission. But anyway, I was doing amateur fights in Hawaii. Uh I don't think I don't think it counts um towards Oklahoma. I hope not, because then I'll be in big trouble. Um But anyway, I was I was doing pretty good, you know. Uh just not I've never been the most athletic guy. Um I I actually my lungs are have have been burned. So I I I don't have the greatest cardio. And I there's nothing I could do. I could I could go hang out with David Goggins for eight months and like you're not gonna fix my cardio. Like you just my lungs are permanently damaged. Sure, sure, sure. From from from smoke from burn pits and Iraq and and like, you know, stuff burning, diesel fuel burning, uh, you know, stuff that you know we don't need to talk about on a podcast. But um anyway, um I've never had the best cardio, so I always had to beat people on skill and technique and uh speed, right? I had to be just beat them and I had to beat them really fast. That's still my technique. When I get in the cage, I'm gonna try to kill you in the first round, and then I'm definitely gonna try to kill you in the second round. And if we go to third round or or beyond that, I'm probably gonna die. Um so I uh I got a little cocky there, uh, like 7-0. Got a little cocky went up against a guy who was Muay Thai was real popular there, and I ate a very, very hard uh liver kick and uh and cracked some ribs and uh and then my body just shut off, right? And like so I show back up to formation the next day to do PT and like I'm like, I can't do PT, I can't even breathe. My ribs are wrapped, and my you know, my commander's like, you're done. Like you don't belong to yourself, you belong to the United States government. So like you can't just be out here doing this freelance, whatever you're doing. I like I'm I'm all for like getting in a gym and training, like making yourself a better fighter, a better war fighter.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

But it's but like you Yeah, at this point, I mean are you in jeopardy of of uh oh boy, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

You're you're you're you're injuring US pro United States government property, right? So right that that's what GI stands for, government issue, right? Yeah, that's what you know, yeah, yeah, you know, GI, you're a GI, right? Uh GI Joe, government issue, right? Um so yeah, when you sign your contract, like you belong to the United States government, so you can't just be doing crazy stuff, you know. I mean, uh people do it anyway, and and some commanders are cool, you know, but when you're getting ready to do a deployment or something, and now you got broken ribs, like yeah, you they they frown upon that for sure. My commander was pretty cool, he would come watch me fight or whatever, but um but then then you know the the broken ribs came and he's like, all right, that's that's about enough of that. Like, so um so when I got out of the military, you know, I I went through that little depression phase because I had no purpose.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

What year was this? 13. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Um my son was born. Uh I was me and a stay-at-home dad. I'd I got out of the military and went straight into 100%, you know, disabled veteran, you know, drawing some full pension, everything. Um very, very, very hefty salary for most for from compared to what I was making. Um it's pretty wild. Um what you get paid as a soldier and what you get paid when you retire. Get out and and and become a disabled veteran are drastically different numbers. Oh yeah. Yep. Anyway, um, I uh but I you know, I thought, you know, you know what? Like I missed a lot of my daughter's life being employed and like training and stuff. Like I'm gonna just spend time with my kids. That's all I'm gonna do. I'm gonna, you know, I I can pay all the bills from the house, I don't have to do anything, but I start losing purpose, drinking every night, you know, like um and I'm just trying to be a dad a good dad, but you know, at the same time, like if you don't take care of yourself, you can't be. Can't take care of it's the same thing as like, you know, our rule of no medicine in a gunfight, right? Like I can't fix you if I'll get jacked up. So, you know, like I gotta take care of that threat before I can help you. And the same thing applies in real life. Like if I if I have a threat to my body, whether it's my mental health or physical health, like I have to fix that before I can be a good dad. Right. So I uh I at the time, like I I just want to do something, like go back contracting, like just or go to contracting, like do something, uh get that, get that sense of purpose, maybe that adrenaline around. I don't know if I was chasing dopamine. Obviously, you know, um obviously I you you know me, I have an addiction to dopamine, right? I've had adrenaline rush, I I'm always doing something wild.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

With you know, um something crazy to just to get a little bit more rush, right? Yeah, gunfights circle way up here, and then everything else is, you know, and you get addicted to a certain level, and then after everything else after that just feels numb, you know. Exactly. So um, you know, I I I uh I couldn't find my purpose for a couple years and I and you know, I finally, you know, somebody's like, you know, why don't, you know, if if you you know you you you want to stay home to be with your kids, if you go back to, you know, you go to contracting, which contracting was kicking off. There was lots of offers out there right then, especially for like PSD guys in Afghanistan. So, you know, but then again, I'd be leaving my kids again, right? So somebody is like, man, you know, you got a pretty good set of skills, you know. You're good with a pistol, you give us a car bean, you give us a you know, uh a sniper rifle. Like at this point, like I really didn't know what PRS was. So I when I opened my range up, I opened it as a training facility for law enforcement and military. Got it. Um and uh then some PRS showing up. It's 2015.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

2015 now, so a couple years post-deployment. Uh and this is Faledborough. Yes, Foldborne.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Um I opened it up as a training facility, got Clee accredited, which is Council of Law Enforcement Education and Training. That's uh basically just means I can I can train police officers and uh and sign off on their training. Um and then, you know, the word started getting out that you know there's this long range out there that does training, and basically, to my knowledge, I'm still the only public range in the state of Oklahoma. I don't there's an Oklahoma City gun club that goes out to like 600 something, but you yeah, literally somebody has to die for you to even get on that uh weight lift, right? And they charge insane fees for range use, and mine's like Hillbilly, you know, like hey, drop $30 in that box out there, and and you can shoot out to a mile, you know? And and uh anyway, um, but I I had some people, Rick Reeves uh was one of them, Dean Morris, a lot of the OPPS guys were hitting me up, and they were like, hey man, uh do you care? Uh could we pay you to come out and uh like sign in our match guns and practice a little bit? And I'm like, match guns. And I'm like, sure, yeah, go ahead. Like, you know, and I at the time I was just getting started, so any extra money I had coming in, I was like, great. And Rick's like, hey, you know, you and at the time I had like two, four, six, eight thousand twelve hundred. I think that's all the targets I had out there. Just that's it.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

And like one target at each distance. Yeah. For long range. And then a whole bunch of uh close stuff, right? For carbine and pistoling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have my carbine pit over there with like a bunch of targets. You still have it? And then uh, huh? You still have the carbine area? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

I don't know if I've ever seen it. Yeah. It's hidden. It's hidden for a reason. Okay. It's a very dangerous place to be. It's like uh uh you ever seen um what's that movie with like the end of the world? Um like Mad Max? Sure. Like that's that's the shit that happens over there on the carbine range. Okay. Like, I just don't even go over there. Like, it's you just don't want to go over there. Okay. Okay. Like, I like I'll I'll I'll just kind of peek over there and I'm like, is that an M1 Abrams? Somebody's driving over there. And I'm like, I don't even care, dude. Like, whatever. It's just as long as they stay over there. Yep. Uh but we got a live 1600 square foot live shoot house that we had uh set up. Um we're doing a lot of law enforcement training, and then uh, you know, I and then I uh more focused on carbon pistol and law enforcement training in the shoot house, yeah, and then a little bit of sniper training going on. And most of the the sniper training was more, you know, I've got a uh uh an area set up for land navigation, uh, you know, and a lot of people don't even know this. So I've got areas for land nav, uh I've got places for stalking and like how big as followed.

unknown 27:06

Huh?

SPEAKER_00 27:07

How many acres is Fowl Bore?

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Uh about 4,000. Oh my gosh.

unknown 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

We only see a few hundred for You probably see about a hundred acres. Yeah. I mean, Josh, Josh, uh Longacre, his buddies, they they spray it. What they what they spray uh on the ranch is about a hundred acres. So that's about all you see. And they're just but if you're not uh some military training or mil or law enforcement training group that's coming out there, you don't see the rest of it. Um so uh anyway, uh you know I had these just a few targets going down the middle and a hundred yard zero board, and Rick comes out and he's like, Man, you got a lot more stuff over here. You can set up barricades or props. I'm like, barricades for what? Like I got, you know, I got I mean, I had a couple little like you know, standard like military type barricades that that I was used to, but like nothing like PRS.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

And uh I mean at this point PRS doesn't even know what PRS is, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Like barricades and stuff are they barely know they barely know what they are.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Throw OPPS blue plastic barrels and and uh maybe some big rocks and and some chains, swing off shooting.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Chains, uh yeah. Yep, but stack a bunch of tires up. Um but yeah, so but OPPS was a thing, and Rick was uh a big part of that. He he came out and was like, look, you know, I'd like to set a matchup out here. I think you can run some good matches out here, but you know, we we could use a whole lot more of this area up here, like going up on the hill. He's like, and I got a whole bunch of steel I'll bring in if you'll if you'll let me set and match it up out here. And I'm like, sure. And at this point, like I'm just trying anything. Yeah, yeah. Because law enforcement agencies, you know, they don't like to pay, uh, number one. Uh and when they do pay, you know, it it's like forever before you actually get your money, you know. Um they do purchase orders and stuff. And so I'm like, yeah, anything, you know, and uh Rick comes out and he's super helpful, super knowledgeable. Uh, you know, he was shooting some caliber I'd never even heard of, 6'5, a 47 Lapua. And I'm shooting, I've got my 308, you know, my sniper, my sniper rifle, right? Like, and I'm thinking like I'm one of the baddest dudes on the planet, right, behind a bullet gun. And like this guy doesn't know anything, right? No, you know how to shoot an M1A, man. Yeah. Clearly. Right? And so I'm like, I'm thinking in my head, like, you know, this guy don't know what he's talking about. Like, I he's got some weird caliber, and he's got a Vortex scope, you know, uh, Gen 2 ray, a Gen 1 Ray, a Gen 2, Gen 1 raid, or something like that. Yeah, and I've got a loophole Mark IV, uh, Mill Retical, MOA turrets. Yeah, of course. Um just basically standard M24 is what I built, right? For you know, that's just all I knew. It's what I knew, right? Uh and then I had uh uh basically a a a 110 clone. Um and that was my that's my long guns, right? That's just that's just my comfort. That's what I know. That's that's the best of the best. That's why wouldn't the military, you know, give me the best of, you know, so like that's that's what I perceived as being the best, right? 100%, you know, and uh, and you know, there's a saying, comparison is a killer of joy, right? Um and you know, I start comparing my stuff to their stuff and start realizing my shit sucks. Um and another a buddy of mine, so um um another buddy of mine that was a sniper, uh Derek Allen Schmidt, um just so happens he lives not too far from the range, he's out of the military now. Um and he's like, hey man, you like you need to come do one of these competitions. Like, I just did one, it was super enlightening. And I I didn't know what he meant by enlightening, but I know I know now um what he meant was you're gonna get your ass kicked. Um he meant humbling, he said enlightening, and you should have used the word humbling. But you know, I th I should I know I'm like, well, I'm having a match at my own range, so I'll just shoot it. And I think I got last by a a long a lot of a lot of points.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

So and uh is this two so 2017? I'm I'm looking at your I'm looking at your profile on the website, and am I uh I hadn't shot an actual PRS match at this point. So this this is your this is your first match, though.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

No, no, my first match was an O PPS match.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Got it. Okay. Which doesn't shot some OPPS files. It was not a PRS, wasn't part of the PRS series at all at that point.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

It's still not, yeah. Right. Um so it's because they're a private club and they won't allow uh they won't allow anybody that's outside their club to come shoot their match, right? And that and I've tried to go over this with them and they just they know they won't do it.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Um a lot of folks have come up to OP O P P S.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Everybody also being clay blackheader, like yeah, uh all you know, basically all the Okies, honestly, um, including myself. Um so anyway, um I got very humbled real quick and I and I and I I'm a type of person I have the mentality of like I don't like that. I don't like not being the best. I don't like being, you know, if I was going to the gym and training and I was getting uh my ass kicked every day, like I'm gonna spend the next, you know, six, eight months in the gym every single day until I'm ready to go. Yeah. So so anyway, yeah, I got humbled real quick and I was uh I was like, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna just start training every day. And I like I had you know people like Rick and Dean Morris and like all you know, Dean Morris, uh he's uh you know uh world world champion like F F-class shooter. You know, it's you know was Dean uh you know uh is he out there chasing PRS?

SPEAKER_01 33:23

No. Uh but you know the dude can lay on his belly and just slaughter people.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Like Bert Bert Chamberlain, yeah, I don't know if you know him. Another, he's an older, he's almost seven years, seven years old. He uh he he got into long-range competition by he he hates crows, like hates them. So there you go. And you and you know, he and he you know he got tired of like trying to call crows, so he just set out uh on his place with like a long gun and and and learned how to like pluck them off at like seven, eight hundred yards. And so further away. Burt's another one of those like guys, like he shoots uh a few PRS matches here and there. He's in the system, he's got a membership, but he's probably not gonna shoot a lot of matches. He RO's most of my big matches. But uh he uh you put him on his belly, you can't beat him. He will skull drag you. There you go. He can't miss. I mean, I I don't you don't ever see him miss, but he can't get through the he can't get through the props and get through the the the time the time constraints because he's just you know 70 years old, right? Or close to it. Yep. You know, and and it but he's heck I think he just got fifth place at my last club match. You know, he can he he he is his ability to shoot over it compensates for his age and his ability to get through stages and time. You know, I would say he don't do a whole lot of missing. And uh and now I think he still shoots MOA, but he don't care. Like he don't he don't need somebody to bring up.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

If you know if you know the system, it doesn't yeah, it doesn't matter what you what you use as long as you've got to be able to do that. And you know, Bert helped me.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

You know, Bert helped me a lot. Like a lot of these old OPPS guys were very helpful and uh and in and and and teaching me, you know, that you know, I I my ways were Vietnam era, you know, tactics and stuff. So um I I just uh I started kind of doing my own little training regimen, and uh before you know it, like I started beating those guys. And heck yeah. And then Clay showed up on range one day and uh and you know he was struggling too. He got like last place at his first match, and uh I actually ended up I I DQ'd Clay in his first match because he he shot the prop. Um but you know he didn't know, you know, and I I remember watching Clay struggle on a barricade, and uh uh Jim C was at my range, and uh, you know, we're sitting there watching Clay, you know, just shoot off this barricade, and he's like, Miss, miss, miss, miss, miss. And, you know, at this point, like I'd gotten pretty solid. I mean, I'm at this point, I got pretty solid, you know, like I'm shooting for first, second, or third, you know, at pretty much any club match I went to. And uh Jim C's like, hey man, uh me and Jim had done some classes together. Um, and uh Jim's like, are you gonna go help that guy? Are you just gonna watch him struggle? And I'm like, I I don't know. I don't I don't I don't know him, you know. I don't really want to like pester him. He's like, well, I mean, he I'm sure he probably wouldn't turn down any help. He's hadn't hit a target yet. And so I went over to Clay, and Clay will tell you, you know, like, you know, he was very receptive, like, sure, if you can help me hit this target. And, you know, I showed Clay a technique, and then he I don't know that he has missed a target since then, you know. Um and and of course, Clay's got that, you know, mentality of like he has to be the best too. So, you know, he just took, you know, what I call better and and made it better. And like he just, you know, wins, you know, he trained with me. He trained with, you know, whoever else he could train with. You know, there's something he didn't know, he would go find it. And I did the same thing. You know, I you know, I I Austin Organ was like my my hero when I first started, you know. I I wanted to be, I wanted to be like Rick Reeves. I wanted to be like, you know, uh, you know um Matt Brusso.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Looking at your looking at your first match uh that was on on the PRS site at MILs and Mud Bugs PRS Club Series match results. Yeah. And yeah, it's it's Rick Reeves's first, your second, uh Tate is sixth, Clay is eighth, Carl Hesser was in there, 11. Um Beamer was there, 17. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of other, you know, uh a lot of other guys here too.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

That was a that was a fun match with mills and mud bugs. So what it was was uh we'd shoot a match and then we'd do a crawfish boil. So mills and mud bugs. Love it. Mills and mud bugs. Yeah, we and uh we would tap a keg, we would tap a keg, we have the crawfish guns. I had Michael Scott, uh was another shooter. He he he shot, uh, he used to shoot quite a bit, and then he kind of just, you know, life got busy and he you know doesn't really shoot much, it was just for fun. Uh, but but he would come out and cook the crawfish, and you know, he's really good at cooking crawfish, so you know, we would do the match, and then he would he would do the crawfish, and so we had the match and the crawfish. And yeah, that was one of my first, I think my first actual PRS club match, and I I got second and and um and just start climbing from there. Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

So you're so you're doing uh at this point, you're a foul board is becoming established. Yes, right. You got some targets out there, yeah. You're hosting some club matches, yeah. Um you got guys like Clay Black that are showing up, probably Austin or Gain, um Rick, Tate, you know, you're you're you're you're starting to draw some attention there. Um you know, looking at your results, like you from the PRS standpoint, I mean you kind of always been a top five guy, like regional series, right? Um how did you jump from like, you know, like you you you certainly weren't using that that clone rifle anymore, right? Like how long did it take before you got something other than that?

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah, I built a I built a rifle around uh, you know, somebody, you know, I I just uh somebody appointed me, I think I went to a match and you know, somebody uh let me uh you probably a surgeon at this point, right? Yeah, first, and then uh a Lone Peak uh was actually uh uh somebody uh Dominic Plunkett. You know him? Okay. Uh he uh he came down. I I hosted the first uh silent night match ever. It was not a PRS match, uh it was just an OPPS match. And Dominic Plunkett came down and I was I still had a, you know, I don't even think I had a surgeon. I think I had a I still had a Remeter 700, but like in a Jay Allen chassis or something. Jay uh Lisa, Lisa Jay Allen had given me a chassis, and uh, you know, I was getting, I was drawing some attention that I was gonna be an up-and-comer. And so, you know, some companies were like, hey man, like, you know, run my stuff, run my stuff. And Dominic Plunkett, uh, I still had that, you know, old janky 700 action uh and and I was crushing it with that action, but Dominic Plunkett, you know, was a you know North uh you know North South Dakota, North South Dakota guy, and he came down for one of my matches, and uh he's like, hey, uh I I'm I'm bringing you something. And I'm like, okay. And he's like, I uh I I can't stand to watch you run that. You know, he said, I see you you're very talented, and I and uh I can't stand to watch you run that Remington 700 anymore. So he brought me a Lone Peak. And uh I uh I ran that for a long time, and uh I uh I started having some issues um there. I I would go to you know club matches, I would just win, you know, or you know, top three, and then I'd go, I started going to two-day PRS matches, and I could never break like the top 20, you know, top 20, you know, KM, top 20 at battle break, you know, or whatever. And I just couldn't ever break that. Why not? I I well I I'm getting there. Um I was always and Tate Tate will tell you this, uh, you know, he watched Tate Tate will tell you he watched me for years fight issues, rifle issues. Like I got so good, I that my Jay Allen and that lone peak together, like something wasn't right. I don't know which I think the Jay Allen was warped. Uh not saying it was the I'm not saying it was the lone peak. Um, but I got so good at fixing a malfunction that I could you I I did it so fast you wouldn't even see it. So I would go to run the bolt and it would hang up and I would get my fingers in there, like like suck that round back and run and run the bolt forward so fast that you you really you had to like video it and slow-mo it to even catch me doing it because I had done it so much, and I it happened like every other round. So I just I'm just fought through it and I never timed out, never, and you know, Tay, you know, Tay it has an eye for stuff like that because he's you know he's a psychopath when it comes to you know actions. Like he's watching everything and he he watched me struggle with that for a long time. And and uh I remember like he's like, dude, like let me have that. Like, let me have that gun. I don't care if it's lone peak or not. Let me let me let me fix it. Like, I'll fix it. Okay. And uh, and and uh he's like, that's not your lone peak. It's you know, it's uh it's it's it's the Jay Allen. I sent it back to Jay Allen, they're like, uh, it's not and it's not stock, and then they they kept saying it's not stock, it's not stock, whatever. And uh so I one day Wade was like, Um, let me take your rifle and I'll I'll figure it out. And I'm like, well, I got a match this weekend. And he's like, okay, take my gun. And so I'm like, really? No joke. No joke. Yeah, Wade's too bill is like, hey, like, you know, Wade's like, dude, you're super talented. He's like, I I I I I want you, I he was like, I it would be an honor for you to take my rifle. And he's like, here's some ammo, didn't charge me, didn't ask for money, wouldn't take my money, gave me a rifle. And it's at this at this point, foundation had just got started. Impact had really just got started. And um, yeah, he gives me uh a Bartline impact foundation with a Schmidt and bender on it and six Creedmore. Um and I think it might it might even be shooting factory ammo or maybe weighted loads of ammo, I don't know. But he gave me this rifle. I took Down to uh and my goal for that year, I think it was 2018. Uh 2017, I I never broke the top 20, I don't think. Maybe, maybe once, but I don't think so. Um and then we go to 18, and my goal for the year was a top 10 finish. Like that's what that was my that was my that was my year goal. Okay. So uh I go to the top 10 at the finale? No, top 10 just in a match. Again, not in a topic. Oh, in general, in a two-day PRS match. I'm wanted. I just wanted to finish in the top 10. I want to be like, you know, because I just you know, watch, you know, again, Austin Orgain, these guys like Austin and Tate, you know, uh Travis Stevens, like those are guys I'm striving to be. Okay. And, you know, I I just love Battle of Breakneck where you know I had a rifle go down uh, you know, day one, and uh somebody had loaned me a rifle day two, and I I beat the winner on day two. Um but day one, I dropped so many points, like I still ended up like 60th or something. So, or maybe 40th, I don't know. Right. But I'm like, so the potential's there, right? I can do this. And yes, so I'm like, my goal is just I just want to I want to be like those guys. I want to be in the top 10. And I and to me, at that time, like if you were in the top 10, like you did something. Like, there's a lot of talent out there, you know. The targets were small. I mean, and so my goal for 2018 was to get inside top 10. And I believe my very first match of 2018, I got fourth. Right? Uh heck yeah, okay. Uh, and I think it was the Jurassic Classic or Lone Star or something. It was uh Matt Brusso was the match director. And I think I got fourth, and that was with Wade's rifle, and I'm like, wow, like that isn't crazy. Like I've I have never been more confident in my life shooting Wade's rifle. Like, I I there's something about it was it was almost euphoric to know that like I remember they had a TYL that went down to like it was at like three or four hundred yards, but it went down to like one inch, right? And it was like a 10-pound TYL. I got this, huh? Yeah.

unknown 46:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

And it was no big deal. And I and I I just knew, like I I just went into that stage and knowing that like I can hit that one inch little target. I had no problem. Like, if I just put my reticle right there, it's gonna hit that exactly where I put that reticle. And I I never felt that that confidence before. And so That's awesome. And I, you know, I you know, I think I came in fourth at that match, and you know, my goal was top ten, and now all of a sudden I'm in the top five. So I'm like, I think I may be, I may have, I may have may have gotten seventh. I don't know. Maybe you could see. Okay. What did I get there? 2018, Jurassic Classic.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Uh I do not see that match on here. Was it was any Jurassic Classic? Lone Star? Who Chanel Lone Star Challenge? Uh that would be the first one of 18. And seventh? You you were twelfth. You were twelfth. Twelfth. Matt Brusseau won it.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

Okay, no, no, no, no. This is the match. This is not this is not that match, then. This is not that match because Matt Brusseau would become MD on this match. The match I'm talking about. Um, I think I got whatever year that was, my goal was top 10. And then I think the first match, I got seventh. I said fourth. I got seventh. And so I'm like, Okay. Wow, that would easy. There's my top, there's my top ten goal right there, first match of the year. And so uh here we go. Let's go top five. Let's go over top five. Well, guess what happens the next match? I got fourth. Top five. Top five. Fourth. Yeah. So um, so so that's and so now I'm like, now my goal is to win a match, right? So there you go. And uh, and you know, I I think from 2018 to 2018 to 2020.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

If you take out the finales, I don't think I placed outside the top 10.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Heck yeah. Yep. I'm looking at a lot of matches. I mean, yeah, you're you're right there. Lone Star 2019, your fifth. Punisher positional. This is the first year Punisher 2019, I think. Let's take a brief break in the show to give a shout out to one of our partners. Precision Rifle Timer App, official timer of the Precision Rifle Series. If you shoot PRS, managing your time on the clock is critical. And the Precision Rifle Timer app from Clay Blackheader makes it easy. Available as both the standalone phone app and an Apple Watch app, it gives you quick access to stage timers, customizable alerts, and some of the best voice prompts in the industry to keep you on track during practice or competition. It's simple to operate, packed with useful features, and a great training tool for shooters at any level. Go check it out at the App Store. Precision Rifle Timer. Also coming soon to Android. Yeah, your fourth, Rousseau, Jacoby, Austin Argain, you. Yeah. A lot of top fives.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Well, I uh it was everything. I was either in top five or top ten for like two or three two or three years straight. And then um and that was my goal. Shoot pretty good. Shoot, uh yeah, I was just crushing it, right? And are you training a lot during this time too?

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Oh yeah. Are you training a lot?

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Training a lot, training a lot. Okay, yes. Um training all the time, shooting any match, any any match I could shoot, any match, me and Clay, Austin, we would go to any match we'd go to. Um if I could get Sundays, OPPS, everything two days doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Everything. Uh I hated my wife. Um so any chance I can get to get away from her, I'm just being honest. Um any chance I get to get out of the house, I was I was finding a reason um to get out of the house to go shoot good matches. And I was just training, I would stay at the range until dark, come home, you know, cry myself to sleep at night. I had to sleep next to the Corella Deville, and then then I would just as soon as uh I could get back to that next match, I'd be there. And uh open range shooter treat comes along. I'm leading day one by seven, and something happened on a stage where uh you know the the RO had messed some people up. So the Shane Keeley, who was master, he decides to throw throw the stage out. Second place, I had five points on uh isn't Jason, what's his name from Missouri? Um I don't remember. Anyway, uh he was he was in second. Tate was tied with him for second, and uh I had a seven-point lead. They threw the stage out. Um I had cleaned it, and then that took five points away from me. So now at this point, now I've only got a two-point lead. So we go out to dinner that night. I'm drinking a beer. I just got my beer, started sipping on it, and uh we're sitting at the table and and we're talking, and and in hindsight, you know, I know now why Tate did what he did. Um, but at the time, I was like, oh, you just freaking poked the bear, buddy. Okay. But we're sitting at the dinner table, and Tate looks over at me, and you know, you know, at the time I didn't know this, but Tate was really rooting for me, honestly. Like he was. Like he was, he he really saw potential in me, and and he uh and I'm sorry, after I had shot Wade's rifle for the first time, the first thing I did when I got back, and I left that part out, was I I was like, I told Wade, impact Bart Line Foundation, put it together for me. I want one. That's I've never felt that confident. So from that point on, that's what I shot. Um I was sitting at the table and and Tate's like, listen, man, like you you are a stud. Like, there's no doubt about that. You're a stud, and um, and and and and your your day is coming where you're gonna win a match. It's just not gonna be this one, buddy. Like, you know, and no, like nobody, nobody sees themselves in first place on day one and and finishes on, you know, for the first time anyway, and finishes there after day two. And I start sipping on, I'd start zipping on that beer, and Tate says that, and I put that beer down, and I was like, No, I'm getting drinking. I'm I switched back to water, and I'm like, no, I gotta lock in here. Because he he sees it's stung when he said that, you know. I'm like, I look up to this guy, you know, I look up to Tate, like he's like one of my heroes, you know. Like, if if you know, Tate would have told me, you know, that like, you know, that I I needed to shoot the whole match without a bipod, like I would have done it. Because like, you know, I I took I took everything he said as gospel. And so when he said that, it kind of stung a little bit. And and you know, after the match, you know, Tate was like, hey, I just want to let you know, like, there's a reason I said that. Like, I I wanted to get you fired up. And he's like, and I did. And uh I uh I I won that match, and uh Tate came in second, and uh um I uh that was the first one first match, and then I go to the next match, and this was when the AG Cup would had come out, and Tom was sending out those little you know thumb drives. Yep, and I didn't get one. Yep, that's yeah 29. And uh Sheldon Sheldon Sheldon Nalos had released uh his little his little uh survey at the end of the year, and for like I think for three years in a row, uh the first year I was top. I was I was in fourth, the second year, which was that year, 2019, I was in second, and then uh the next year, the next year I was in fourth again. Um so I was like three years in a row in the top five, according to Sheldon Dayless. You know, that's that's like not taking that's not throwing out any matches, that's just like just could straight consistency, right? And uh the only person uh that the uh the year I I was second, um the only person that beat me was the golden bullet winner, Matt Brusseau, right? He was he was more consistent because he went two years without ever finishing outside of second place.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

So it were three years, but anyway, I uh he yeah, I think 2018, 2019. I think he finished first or second at every match for 15 or 20 matches or something like that, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

And I and I had shot a bunch of matches and never had a bad match. I never finished out, you know. So like I'm I'm very consistent. And you know, the curriculum for getting into the AG Cup was you know, you had to win a match and you had to uh be consistent or something, you had to, you know, shoot, you know, repeatedly in the top ten or whatever. And I I met the that criteria, but I didn't get a thumb drive. And I was like, Oh boy, like, what the heck, man? Like that sucks. And there were some people, there were some people on there who had not won a match. They had tied for the win and had a hundred points on the Pierre's website, but they did not have a win.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

And they got anything.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Well, but that was that was Tom Tom Fowler's prerogative, though. I mean, it was his invite only match.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

For sure. I agree, and I agree, you know, right, uh, and I get it, you know, not not you know, it whatever. I but you know, after talking to Tom, he's like, honestly, man, I just skipped, I didn't even I I just didn't notice. Like, I honestly, if I if I would have looked at you again, I took another look at your resume, like, you would have probably got an invite. And I I bump into Tom, I uh, you know, I I'm at the AG Cup, or not the AG Cup, the the the gap guide, and I bump into Tom, you know, he's selling a swag out of the back of his little truck thing, and I was like, hey man. I was like, you know, and I'm really a good friend of Tom. I consider Tom like a uh, you know, I'll do anything for Tom. And uh, you know, Tom supported me uh, you know, with my MMA stuff. Like he's he's told me, like, hey, anything you need, like you need money for your fights, like whatever, I'll I'll fund you, do whatever. Um, so you know, he's been really good to me. And I and I come up to him, I was like, hey man, I'm just kind of joking with him. I was like, what the heck? How come I didn't get an invite? And he's like, Well, you gotta win a match. And I was like, I've won a match, I've won a match. And he's like, You didn't win no match. And I was like, Yeah, I did. I won open range shooters retreat. I was like, actually, I won two matches. And he was like, What's the other one? I was like, the gap grind this year. I'm about to win it. And he's a he kind of he's he kind of laughs me off, and I was like, You think I'm kidding, man? I I got second here last year at the gap grind. This year I'm gonna win it. And uh he kind of laughed off. He's like, okay. This is 2019 gap grind. Yes, right? Yep. The year they did. 2019 gap grind. First AG Cup. Yep. Yep. And uh he kind of laughed me off. He's like, okay, all right, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

And uh anyway, 203 shooters there. Yeah. 203 shooters at the 2019 gap grind. Yes, and you win by five impacts. Correct. I skull drug.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

So and uh, and then I immediately like I didn't go look for Shannon, I didn't go look for the trophy, I didn't go look for the check, I went looking for Tom Fuller. And I'm like, hey man, what I tell you, I told you I was gonna win this match. I was like, sure you can't make it 21, 21 shooters at the AG Cup? And he's like, man, he's like, dude, I uh it my bad. I did skip over you. I do think you deserve to be here. I just I can't do, you know, it's it's 20 shooters invited only. I'm sorry that you didn't get it, but like next year I'll I'll I'll make sure you get in. Well, I uh I'm really bummed about this. And some somehow, somehow, Regina Milkovich gets word that I did not get an invite. And at the time, there I was getting a little hype there, right? Like I was getting some I was getting some some pretty good hype at the time. Um and Regina Milkovich gets word and she's like, wait a minute, like he doesn't have an invite, and she's like she calls me and she's like, hey, I'm gonna be honest with you, like I I I want you to go to this match. Like I I just I I feel like you deserve to be there. And I I'll I'm willing to give up my spot for you to go. And I'm like, I I don't know if Tom will be okay with that. She's like, I'm just gonna call him and tell him that I I want to get my spot. And she did. She stepped aside and gave me her spot. No joke. And uh I I wasn't prepared for that, so I didn't even have a rifle ready or ammo or anything. Oh wow a couple days before the the match is supposed to happen in in in uh Blakeley, Georgia, I get a call from Tom and he's like, hey, you're in, buddy. And I didn't have a rifle, I didn't have ammo, I didn't have anything ready. Uh I didn't have a flight, a hotel, nothing. So anyway, Clay is like, listen, man, I got this this rifle, it's a GT, it's not even out yet. Like, nobody even knows what this caliber is. It's uh I this is a test barrel from George Gardner, like, but it hammers, and I'm like, okay, and he's like, I'm gonna load you up some ammo, and yeah, like I I don't know if we didn't zero it or what, we just assumed we had like zero when we got there, but we got there, and dude, this is Georgia, and it's a hundred degrees outside, you cannot even see the dots on the zero board. They had an Ipsig at 600 yards. You couldn't tell whether you hit the Ipsig or not. Like it. So I did not get good dope. I was trying to get it as close to a zero as I thought I I could get uh in the Mad Mirage. I did not get a good zero. So going in day one, I'm at six stages in, I'm down 30 points, right? And I'm favored to win this thing. There was a Calcutta, and I was the first. When they did a Calcutta online for the AG Cup, I was the first name to be a pick. And I believe George Gardner got picked me. Um and I'm just embarrassing myself at this point. And I'm thinking, like, man, these props aren't super solid, you know. Like I'm and you know, maybe the pressure's on. I don't know what's going on, but I'm not doing well. And I was blaming it on myself and uh and and became kind of blamed it on the props not being super solid. I I wasn't a hundred percent like the best with a tripod at rear. So, and you couldn't talk to anybody, so you you couldn't have you weren't allowed to talk to anybody at all. Like, no talking. So it wasn't like I could go ask Clay, like, hey man, was I shooting? Where was I on those? Like nothing. So, and if you went to the zero board, they followed you with a camera and it's like, oh, this guy's checking zero. I remember watching this. So I'm like, uh-uh. Yep. My dang scope can fall off. And I ain't going to the zero board. Like, I'll shoot that thing. No joke. I'll shoot that thing looking down the barrel, pointing at a target before I go to that zero board. Not embarrassing me on camera. So I stubbornly did not would not go to the zero board.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

And so I get to the didn't Bradley Al Bradley Allen was skulldrugging everybody on that too, and then all of a sudden fell apart. And he should have gone to the zero board, I think. He should he did.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

He did go.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

He did go to the zero board.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

They followed him with camera. Um anyway, I get to this. He was winning that match. He was. Up until like, yeah, about the time, about the time I figured out that I was. Jake Vibbert, I think. Jake Vibbert was Skull Dragon as well. Yeah, Jake Vibbert was Jake, Jake and Bradley were both Skull Dragon. Um I get to like the I think like seventh uh six sixth stages of the match. It's a 12-round position, 12, 12-round stage, 12 positions or six positions or something, but it's the most solid prop I've ever shot off of. And uh I and the target's like 400 and something yards or 500 and something yards, and like I could not scratch that target. I held left, right, straight up, four left, four right, high, low.

unknown 1:02:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Held everything. And finally, this target was uh hung on a an A-frame, and down below there was like some rocks, like a rock some rocks at the base of the and it was raining, so the berms were eating up your eating up your uh uh bullets, and or the target shrimp just didn't have a backstop. Um so you could not tell where your bullets were going. And I'd seen there was uh a rock but right straight below my target. Uh just you know, and I thought, man, if I can hit that rock and kick something up, you know, maybe I can see something. And so I aimed at that rock, which was just, you know, the target wasn't too far off the ground. And I aimed at that rock and sent my round and the RO called impact. Now, this is I'm 0 for 9 on this barricade, right? So I aim at the rock, RO called impact, and I'm like, what? And so what do I do? I just measured from the center of the target down to that rock, and it was about six tenths. So I just took six tenths out. Oh my gosh. Took six tenths out and hit the rest of my targets, and then I was like, I'm over there in the little tent, and I'm kind of thinking, like, what am I gonna do? I'm not going to that zero board.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

So I was like, all right, well, if you just gotta take six tenths out and call it good.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

Yes, that's what I did. And I cleaned the rest of the day. The last four stages, cleaned them. But I'm still in I'm still in last place, okay? No, I'm not in last place. Um I'm second to last, but the only reason I wasn't in last is because they unfortunately Dave Preston had uh a family member pass away during the middle of the AG Cup and he had to leave. And so he didn't finish the match. Right. Um, so that's the only reason I wasn't in last. Um so day two comes around and I just kept the same game plan. You just take six tenths out, and I don't know, and so I again I I have traumatic brain injury. Uh I I I'm not I'm not if I wear you know hearing protection for too long, anything pressing on my head, like I can I get uh I'll get dizzy, I can have a seizure. Well, there was this really long stage, and and I ended up winning the stage. I ended up winning a thousand bucks off the stage uh because I cleaned it and something something happened, and I the I the way I was having to like get down on my gun and I was pressing my ear muzzle into the side of my head. After I got my round off and I dropped my mag and put my chamber flag in, I just the lights went out. Like just out. And I just I passed out. No show. Okay. And uh I kind of come to you and everybody's like, hey, what's going on you okay? What's up? You alright? Like, do you need to call EMS? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm good. I'm okay. I'm alright. It's like it's just happens sometimes, okay. Um I was like, I just need to like No joke. I just need to take my muffs off and just like just relax for a second, and I'll be good. I'll drink some water. And um I was like, Yeah, yeah. I was like, if uh if I could just leave my rifle staged up here for a second, just and they're like, Yeah, yeah, whatever you need. And so uh I take a little break, I kind of recuperate. And I'm like, I gotta keep digging, man. Like I don't I I like I know there's you know no coming back to win this thing, but you know, I can get something respectable, like fifth or tenth or something, middle of the pack. Right. I don't want to be 20th. Uh um, so I just kept digging and and and and it's not really registered to me, but I'm not missing anything. Like at all. Like I think I'm down two all day. And wow. And then I'm going into the last stage. It's up on a tower, like a triple tower of connexes, and as I'm walking by Arena. Yeah, it's part of the unknown distance range. Yes, and it it's a true, it's our last stage of the day. It's pouring rain. You can barely see the targets. Yeah. And it's true plan from eight, like 850 to 1350. And uh as I'm walking up there, um, as I'm walking up, uh, Shannon's case stops me at the stairs and was like, hey, no pressure, but if you clean this, you win.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

And I'm like, why would you tell me that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:58

Why would you say that?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:59

It's a Morgan King move.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:00

Yeah, I'm like, I'm thinking, like, man, come on, Shannon. Like, at this point, like I think I'm in like 12th or 13th or something, you know, like slowly digging my way out of that hole. And I get up to the top, you know, uh Phil Cashing is his RO. Um and uh I lay down, Simma first shot, it misses. I was like, uh, here we go. Here's where that's the whole train wreck comes unraveled. And I make a correction, and then I start running them out. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I get to the last target and center punch that 1350. As best I could tell, I center punched it. And then the next one just slips off the ride. And uh, so I dropped two there, and so that made me now like four for the day. And then they call on the radio and they're like, hey, uh, and the way he said it on the radio is kind of scary, honestly. Uh, for somebody who has anxiety, like I was terrified. But he they're like, hey, uh, we need watts down at uh at the Gozy Burr down at the patio or whatever, like right now, like time now. And I'm like, Okay, I'm like, oh shit. Like, you're not supposed to talk to anybody, right? And I'm like, somebody saw me talking to Shannon, right? Somebody saw me talking to Shannon, and I'm about to get disqualified. And they, if you got caught talking to whatever, they you know, I think it was Bryant Sykes who said that like, you know, like we're gonna freaking make a big deal. If you get disqualified, like we're gonna make a big deal out of it. Like, you know, they're gonna make an example. They're gonna put your face up on the video, put a big eh, big red X across your you know, face, and I'm just thinking, like, oh my god. Oh yeah, and you know, um, and I get down there, and it turns out I I tied and had that shoot-off or whatever. But um I I had climbed that much. So yeah, and and um, so that's why I always tell students, like, man, I don't care how bad you think you're doing, you know, with live scoring now, it's right, you know, you can pretty well see where you're where you're at. But you know, before then, you know, I would tell people like, dude, you have no idea where you're at. Like, there's a whole other match going on. You know, I learned this at uh at um at uh um at Raton. I was sitting in second behind Sean Haymore on day one, and then uh don't he dropped five, he had dropped four, and then day two comes and like it was really bad. The wind was crazy. I was dropping shots after shots after shots, and I cleaned the last stage, and they had RO had me down for a clean. The two guys, uh, there was two guys, there's like four people calling impact, calling impact. Two, two of the guys, one of them was Dakota, uh, Dakota, uh, I can't remember his last name, gosh. The uh group base? Dakota base. Dakota base is one of them, I can't remember who the other one was. Um, and they were like, good run, man, clean run. And then the two other guys, I'm not gonna use their names, they were like, no, he dropped one. And I'm like, I didn't drop one. And I'm like, I can go, I can show you my silver dots on every one of them targets right now. I can tell you where I hit every plate because I remember thinking, like, all right, I hit that first shot a little strong, I'm gonna come off of it. I could tell you my win call on every one of those, like what I did, what corrections I made. Uh, because it's a it's part of my process that I do, right? So I can tell you exactly what I did on every target and what I finished with at the end of the stage because I want to keep that information to use on the next stage. And they were they couldn't tell me which target I missed. They weren't sure, but they knew I missed one somewhere. And I'm like, I did not miss one. And the uh anyway, they so now Dakota and this other guy that saying I cleaned it are are arguing with these other two people, and they ended it's getting pretty heated argument. And uh the RO is like, he's like first time RO, and like he's like, what do I do? And I'm like, man, and they're like, hey, let's get a massive edge up here. And and I'm like, dude, it's not I was like, I've dropped so many points today, it's not that serious. Like, I was like, you know what? I I'm tired, I'm irritated, you know, I don't like being rained on, I don't like water hitting my skin. I just want to go to the truck. Right. Like, give me a nine, I'll approve it. I'm going the truck. I don't care. Well, about that time I met Beamer, you know, he he had come up there and he's like, what's going on? I told him, and he's like, dude, so did you hit it? I mean, if you if you hit it, I would give you a point. I was like, dude, I don't I was like, honestly, it's not I'm I'm honestly irritated at the I'm irritated at both of them. It's not worth the idea. You know, just listening to these guys argue is making me mad. So I just want I'm tired. I just want to go. I was like, dude, I've shot so bad today, it doesn't even matter. Like it that one point's not even gonna make a difference. I was like, I'm going to the truck. We get to the award ceremony, and Beamer's like, you probably should have argued that point, bud. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, you tied for the win. So um so I ended up with a three-way tie for first place. Yeah, and so like as again, I tell students all the time, like, always keep digging. You don't know where you're at, you know. And I've learned these lessons the hard way. A G cup, Ratone. And I like I've learned those by my own mistakes of just like thinking like, man, I'm just sucking today. Like you just don't know where you're at.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

Let's talk about that for a second. What what else do you tell? All right, so back 2018, 2019, you you're shooting really well, and then you had you and Tate and Clay and Austin start JTAC, right? Was that 2020-ish time frame, right?

unknown 1:12:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:43

Yep. So what um, so now you're training students, right? Training people how to shoot precision rifle. Um what you know, and at this point, you mean you're coming off like you're you're three or four years in and you you you you shot really well, right? Like you came up really quick, uh, trained a lot, you know, to took away the learning curve pretty fast. So what are you teaching students to do besides just keep digging? Like what what what are one of the things that you're you're trying to instill in students to get better fast?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

The biggest thing I harp on people about is their trigger pull. Like the trigger mechanics are so important, they don't understand. There are there are there are harmonics in your rifle, right? Like, if you don't follow through with the trigger, like if you you may have a good trigger pull and then release the trigger, you're releasing pressure on the back end of that rifle. And like people only people that that I that have trained with us, and I and I actually will physically show you that this is a real thing. If you pin that trigger to the rear versus not pinning it, you have less you have less recoil, um, you have less uh muzzle rise. Okay, if you pin that trigger to the rear than if you let it go. You can test that theory all you want. This is a fact.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:05

So two things on that, right? Like I remember you because the JTAC class about that. Yes. Pin it to win it. You would say that all the time. How do you explain Clay Blackheader?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:15

Clay Blackheader first off, Clay Blackheader absolutely 100% pins the trigger every time. Sure. He pins it. He just gets a run out of before he pins it. He does. Now Clay has shot so many rounds like that that he's he he does not disturb the lay of the rifle on his way to the trigger. So he gets a running start, bang. And like that's literally his pull. He starts out here and he goes bang. And then he pins it. It's crazy. It's crazy. It is crazy. But in this motion here, he does not I've watched I've watched his trigger cam footages. He does not disturb the the reticle at all in that movement there. He's just gotten so good at it. Yeah, but what I will tell newer shooters or even mid-pack shooters, or hell, I'll tell anybody. Yeah, you are not clay blackheader. I would tell Austin Orgain that, right? You're not clay blackheader. I uh you Austin has his trigger pull, he's very good at it, he's done it for years. Don't try clay's trigger pull.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:32

I bet you, I bet you will break a bad shot. Because you're not clay. I can't do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:40

Yep. You know? I I've tried I've worked I've worked with clay a lot, and there was one we spent some time at the range, and I and and I had clay pulling the trigger like perfect one year, like one time. And I was like, and this was like right before maybe worlds or something, and I was like, oh my gosh, this dude's gonna be scary now. It made no difference to his outcome because he it did it was not benefiting him to make a perfect trigger pull because he'd made it such a bad trigger pull for so long he perfected it. But what I tell people was like I wouldn't tell Morgan King or anybody else to try to do Clay's trigger pull or myself, anybody. I wouldn't try to pull a trigger like Clay because I'm probably I'm gonna yank a bad shot. But Clay has done it for so long, he I don't know. He's good at it. He compensates, he's good, compensates for that bad trigger pull. And but he does follow through. He does pin that trigger to the rear. He does, he does. You will not find any of our JTAC instructors that don't pin that trigger to the rear. That is one thing we're very serious about, is our trigger pull. And you know, a lot of people just accept a sight picture, they accept the wobble. Like and we tell people in class, like, hey, all right, we you know, if you have any wobble at all, I want you to tell me. Like, because I want you to have zero wobble. Yep, right? If you are if you have a gear, you're gonna be stationary on target. If your wind call is perfect, okay, let's just say there's zero wind or your wind call is perfect, all right, and you are 100% solid on the on a on your position, whether it's prone or positional, okay, and you have your finger resting on that trigger, all right. You find some real estate on that trigger, all right, and you have a straight rear rear pull and you pin that trigger to the rear, and your reticle is sitting in the center of that target, and you have a very smooth, clean break on that trigger, it is physically impossible for you to break a bad shot. Okay? Yeah, it's not possible. You can't break a bad shot. If your rifle is not moving, you're you're sitting on the trigger, and you just go bang and pin that trigger to the rear, where where where is there movement in there? Where where is there room for error or movement or for you to slip one off the right? Yep. There's not, okay, and that's not I'm that's not saying you're not gonna miss, okay, because the wind may have gusted up or whatever, but what it does give you is a hundred percent confidence. If I miss a target and it goes four tenths off the left from the center of the plate, you're you're not gonna see me hesitate. I'm not gonna assess, I'm not gonna do anything, but I'm gonna reach up and spin four tenths right into that windage knob, and I'm gonna run my bolt and I'm gonna get back on the fire controls because there is no doubt in my mind that that wind changed. I don't question it, I don't have to. You broke the perfect shot. It's a perfect shot. I sent the perfect shot. It it did not go where I wanted it to, therefore, it was not me. And that's where if we can eliminate those, oh, it was me, you know. I what I get a lot of students all the time, and I and I, you know, we're three quarters of the way through the day, and and they it goes off the left, and I'm like, all right, hey, you seen that, you know, what was the correction? They're like five tenths, and they're like, but but that one was me. And I'm like, how? How is it you? We should be past this. Yeah, like you know, if you follow my process of, you know, I have a little like rhythm that I say in my head, right? Um, because I'm a little on the spectrum, so I I everything has to have a pattern to it. Sure. And I I have this, all right, find the trigger, find center, squeeze, pin it to win it, analyze.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:31

Okay?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:32

So what I'm doing there is I'm finding the trigger. So so all right, I don't close my bolt until I'm on target. All right, I'm not one of the guys who runs my bolt to 100 miles an hour. When I get on target, all right, and I close the bolt, I close it nice and easy, my reticle usually doesn't even move. Okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:48

Yep, yep. So reticle doesn't even move. If you don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:52

And then because you know, the guys who run their bolt, they get on target, they, you know, if they're following the rules, they find the target and then they run their bolt real hard. Guess what? Now they're four mils off, they're gonna find the target again. Okay, well now you found the target twice. If you got a troop line, you found nine targets, I've found five. Does that make sense? So now my time management is much better than yours. So I get on target, close the bolt, and then I find the trigger. All right, I will physically set my finger on that trigger. If you can't set your finger on that trigger without it going off, it's too light. All right. If that thing, you know, if you if it's that light, you're you're either you're gonna either ND at some point or you're gonna break a trigger. Those two things are guaranteed. Um so I find a trigger, find your trigger, find center of the target.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:43

There should be no movement there. None. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

Are you uh left or support hand on top of the scope?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:51

Yeah or holding the left hand on top? Yeah, I'm not out here. There's no leverage here, right? If I was to arm wrestle you, are you gonna arm wrestle me with your arm out here or are you gonna arm wrestle me with your arm right here? Right. There's leverage here. I have no leverage out here. Yes, can I get solid on a prop and shoot? Absolutely. Can I see that shot? Most likely, yeah. Morgan King does it all the time. Francis, I mean a lot of guys do it. But you are just much more solid and your recoil mitigation is so much better here. That's why we don't arm wrestle out here. We arm wrestle here, okay? Yeah. All right. So if I can keep everything tight and and and and and you know, get solid on that barricade, my right hand is driving into the barricade. No movement. No movement, yeah. So the mantra I say in my head is find the trigger, find center, squeeze, pin it to win it, and analyze or digest. We we switched it to digest because uh my brain uh every time we're in the JTAC class, I'm trying to write that down on the on the board. I'm writing anal eyes, and uh, and then my brain, I just kept, I kept, I kept reading two words, anal eyes, and I just I'm like, let's switch that word up. Let's switch that word up. Digest. We're gonna go to digest. So, so yeah, so find the trigger, find center, squeeze, pin it to win it, or you can just say fall through, and then digest. All right, where did that before I release that trigger, after that gun goes bang, all right, before I release any pressure on that trigger, I'm gonna ask You know where it went. I want to know where I'll give myself an answer. I need to give myself an answer for where that shot went. And the answer might be, I don't know. That's a perfectly acceptable answer. Okay. Sometimes you just didn't see it. Like, I don't know. It hit the target, I don't know where. Or maybe it didn't hit the target and I don't know where. But I'm gonna digest what happened. Okay, did I hit it hit the dead center? All right, good. I can run the bolt, get back on fire controls, or hey, that was a tenth left center, I'm gonna reach up, put a tenth right, run the bolt, back on the fire controls. Like it's all this whole process is happening at a very rapid pace, right? But I'm still going through the process. And if people watch me shoot and they're like, there's no way you're doing all that in that fast time. I'm like, yeah, I am. I promise you I am.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:26

I I I Yeah, once well, actually, it's like an anal another analogy that you told me in the past, right? Um like just coming out and shooting precision rifle is like driving a car for the first time, right? Yes. And once you once you go through that, and I'm gonna let you do your analogy, but once you go through that, become comfortable with all the stuff where that is that is all that you're focused on. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:49

Yeah, so yeah, what you're talking about is like uh you know, I say to students all the time, like when you first start driving a car, like like you're like an old grandma, like you're 10 and 2, and like you're just like real jerky on the wheel and you're slamming on the brake, and you're you know, you're doing all this stuff and you're just trying to learn. And all you're trying to do is just keep it, take all the, you know, keep it between the mustard and the mayonnaise on the road, right? Just keeping it between the lines, right? And you're just you're not, you're not, you're not, you're not going fast, you're going way under the speed limit, like you're just going slow and you're trying to learn, right? And and you're just trying to to build that confidence. And now you're you're uh you know, doing you know, 25 over speed limits, you're you're doing a podcast on your uh, you know, for the rifle series, right? And you're driving with your knees. You're recording a podcast, you're driving with your knees, and you're eating a Big Mac, right? And you're doing 20 over speed limit through a school zone. Okay. Well, you know, that's just confidence, right? That's just like I know what I'm doing, right? So, and and you're you you're able to process all those things and like, oh, the deer just jumped out, and like your your foot just goes to the brake, slows down, like you know, exactly. Like, you know what I mean? Like it's not whereas when you're first learning how to do it, like you may not go to the break on that, you know, a deer jumps out in front of you might accidentally hit the gas just out of panic because you don't you your your gross motor schools have not taken over. Listen, like you know, I coach baseball thing with precision rifle here. I coach baseball for a long time, right? A major league pitcher with a fastball has like 430 something nanoseconds to decide or a batter, I'm sorry, that has four hundred and something nanoseconds to decide whether that that is a ball or strike. Am I gonna swing or am I not gonna swing? So when people say like, man, I just I you know, I I I don't think that I can process all that and and and get through the stage in time, I'm like, you absolutely can't. Your brain is a supercomputer, right? We have a supercomputer. Not I'm not saying everybody has the bandwidth for this, right? Because this this sport does take a lot of bandwidth, all right? It really does. Yep. Um, you know, something I've done and tested, uh, I've actually tested on students, is uh eating versus not eating. Stop stuff as simple as that, right? Eating versus not eating. And I I I didn't learn this as an instructor teaching students, I learned this as a match director. When I would order 150 meals, and then I would have 60 left. And I'm like, why do I have 60 meals left? And it's like hand in the mouth people, and they're like, oh, I'm good, man. I'm good, I'm not hungry. I'm good, I don't eat, I don't eat earn a match, and didn't didn't really click uh at first, you know. I'm just like, whatever, dude, you know, and then I start thinking about your brain is 20% of your metabolic rate, okay? Whether you're sitting down watching Netflix or you're playing in a master's chess tournament, your brain is still 20% of your metabolic rate, and it's mostly water. So if you're not putting water in your body and you're not putting fuel in your body, you're not operating on that same bandwidth that you started with. So you guys at the end of day one, end of day two, they're getting fatigued, you're starting to make mental errors, like, like, like people start falling apart toward the end of day two. Why? Probably fueling. Probably a bandwidth issue, right? It's not that that's not that that guy, that guy just, oh I mean, he just sucks. He makes all kinds of mental errors. Well, if that was true, then he'd be making mill errors on stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:45

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:45

He's making them stage, you know, fifteen, seventeen, eighteen, twenty, right? That's where we start making those middle errors. Start at the end of the day, we're tired, fatigued. You need sleep. Yep. You need sleep, right? You need Eight, 12 hours sleep. Yeah. Adult male. He needs eight, 12 hours sleep. Adult female. Eight, twelve hours sleep. Okay. Um, you need food all day long. When you're burning bandwidth, you need fuel. Not saying, you know, you know, a lot of people are like, man, if once I eat, I just get groggy, I get lazy. I'm not, okay. Don't eat your bread sandwich that, you know, your subway sandwich they brought you, right? There's all kinds of fuel uh sources out there for food, like frog fuel. Uh there's, you know, protein bars, there's all kinds of stuff. Hell, eat a eat a payday or something. Yeah. Some you need you need glucose, you need glucose, and you need uh uh carbohydrates, and you need uh water.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:50

You don't need any steak, right? You need protein. You don't you don't need protein, a lot of protein. I mean, you can eat protein bars, but really what you need is glucose and you need uh carbohydrates for that fuel. There you go. Okay, that's what the um if you're not drinking a bottle of water every, you know, every stage, every other stage, like you're just asking for problems. Like you're asking to fatigue your body. And like you need that and I was saying you're gonna run out of fuel, and you've got to keep fueling your body. We did I did a test, okay? Uh students, raise your hand if you do not eat at a match. A couple people raise their hand. Okay, I I need a volunteer. Out of you guys that don't eat at a match, I need a volunteer. Okay. What I'm gonna do is I I want you to volunteer to eat today during class.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:45

All right, I'm gonna test your blood sugar, both of you. So I have three people. Yeah, blood sugar or glucose tester.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:55

Yes. And I test the blood sugar of the individuals that do not eat and the blood sugar of you guys can do this yourself. Get on Amazon and order a glucose tester. Yeah, yeah. Okay. If you don't believe me, test it yourself. Go go shoot a club match, test your blood sugar that morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:14

Don't eat. Test it at the end of the match.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:18

Then you go to the next match, test your blood sugar, eat, and then test your blood sugar again. And I don't and I'm not saying eat lunch. I'm just eat fuel, eat some some some some beef turkey sticks, eat a protein bar, little snacks here and there. Every cup, every stay, every other stage, you know, grab a handful of pistachios. I'm not saying eat a steak and you know, get stuff so full, but just consistently put consistency is key. Putting fuel in your body. If you're an elk hunter, you know, guys like Matt Alwine or or uh you know John Pinch, like those guys are up in the mountains, they're burning a lot of fuel. I promise you, they're snacking it, you know, they're they're carrying a lot, a lot of fuel bars and stuff. And I'm an elk hunter myself. Like I'm man, I'm constantly snacking. When I in between trying to catch my breath and walking at 11,000 feet, I'm eating a snack. I'm eating a payday bar, a Snickers bar, um just putting fuel in my body because I don't want to be that, yeah. Muscle cramps, you know, all that stuff happens because you're not eating. And then, you know, and and you have to eat the right way. You can't, you know, stuff yourself at lunch and eat a big, huge breakfast and then stuff yourself at lunch. Like that's not the way to do it. No, and then eat a light breakfast. Yes, up and down. You yeah, eat eat a light breakfast. You know, grab you a sausage biscuit. Okay, now, you know, by the time the match gets started, you're on your first second stage, throw a handful of pistachios in your mouth or whatever. You know, grab a protein bar and you know, slow small micro meals throughout the day. Up exactly, I promise you your scores will go up. Or maybe they don't go up, but yeah, and you can test like you said, you can test your blood sugar. Yeah, you don't believe me. Test it on your own. That is test it. I'm not out here just speaking nonsense. This is stuff that I've tested, all right? This is stuff that I'm always trying to make my students better. Okay. And so well, uh this stuff uh I've done uh uh it's it's stuff that I've tested.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:24

Um and you know what? Like and everything you've talked about so far is honestly all stuff you don't even have to go to the range for. Oh like pin it to win it, follow through. Like you don't you can you could do as tons of dry fire at home and and just get that trigger finger worked in, right? Yep. Um uh shooting with no wobble, right? You can put a bag on the kitchen table, yeah, let her you know, set your rifle down and and practice that without you know and just hold a target, right? So that you're a hundred percent confident that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:01

Aiming a screw on your fence out back if you're in a rent residence in the neighborhood, like aim out your kitchen window at the little screw on your uh on your privacy fence and you know, dry fire on that little screw. You know, the smaller the target, the better. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:15

Exactly. And then eating and blood sugar, like it's simple. Simple stuff. You don't have to go to a range for any of this stuff. It's very simple stuff. Figure out what you're gonna eat during a match.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:27

It's like very simple stuff, and and it's not like I'm not asking you guys to like, all right, all right, you guys need to be in the gym, you need to be hitting, you know, you hit your physical fit. I'm not asking, you know, and and I don't, and to be honest with you, you can I don't really care if these shooters go do that stuff. I'm giving you uh free information. Like if you don't want to do that, don't do, don't listen to me. Do do your thing, dude. But don't be upset when you know you're Morgan King and Clay Black hitter and you know, you know, Joe Thielen, you know, like these guys, these Joe Thielen, these guys are are are are beating you in matches, uh, and and you're still stuck in the middle of the pack. Do something different.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:12

I remember that when there was uh when you guys came up to Wisconsin to do the the training up here in person. I remember there was a couple students, I'm not naming names, I I remember them very particularly, but that just refused to change. Like they paid good money, and and they're they're there in the course and they're asking questions and they're like denying that this stuff's gonna make them better, and then absolutely refusing to even put it to practice, you know, when we're at the range.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:42

And it's like, why did you pay to be here? Like, uh, whether you think this is bullshit or not, like give it a chance. Like the best shooters in the world are doing it, you know? So I I guess you guys see that in every class too, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:58

I do, and I you know, but the first time Bushman started helping us, uh, started jumped on the JTAC team. He uh we were over there, me and Austin, you know, we teach some positional stuff. We have our own little spiel we go through. Um, and uh, you know, we're teaching a hand on top. And Bushman was it was his first class, so he was still kind of trying to feel his way, like Clay is over there with those guys. You know, we really didn't need him necessarily. Uh we thought he was a valuable asset and he had knowledge that would uh that maybe we didn't have, you know, it's obviously, you know, there's something I can learn from anybody, right? If if I start if I think that I there's I can't learn something from Ken Wheeler or Morgan King or Corey Vogus or hell, anybody, like then I then I am then I am an idiot, right? Because I can learn something from it maybe something as simple as like how this this guy has a like unique way that he cleans his rifle or cleans his trigger or whatever. Like, okay, if you're if you are not constantly a student, you should never you should never consider yourself like Well, yeah, this game, this game's gonna leave you by the way. Yes, this game will absolutely just leave you in the dust. So you gotta constantly be evolving. So we added Bushman, we thought, like, you know, there's something in his in his brain that uh could be an asset. And uh his very first class, uh, you know, he, you know, Bushman, he was kind of nervous, but he had, you know, so he typed out in his phone, like he basically like read his portion of the class off his phone like this, like all his notes. Because, you know, we've said these words in this class, we've taught this class, you know, hundreds, hundreds of times we've said these same things. He had never done that. So he was like, I'm gonna read off a script if you don't mind. And we're like, uh, whatever. Yeah, there's no competition here, buddy. Like, yeah. And so he read off what he read off, I was like, wow, uh, could you send that to me? Like, that's his that's his pre-stage checklist or something. It was like his pre-match checklist or something. Uh and and it was some stuff, it was stuff simple, like uh, you know, like, hey, make sure you're uh your your wife you and your wife are good before you leave the house. You know? Like, make sure, you know, she's not uh slamming doors and cabinets before you leave the house because guess what? That's what I'm gonna be thinking about the whole time you're at this match, right? Or or make sure, you know, you you didn't get in an argument with your boss, you know, on Friday before you head to this match, you know, because you you're you're at this match worrying about whether you have a job on Monday or not, you know. So like square things away at home before you leave. And like it was stu simple stuff like that that he that he brought to the class and it would say, and it was like, never thought about that, but you're 100% right. That's pretty smart. But anyway, he was walking around, and uh me and Austin were you know teaching, you know, hand over the scope and you know stuff. And after we got done, Bushman was like, let me try that. Let me try, let me see if I like that better. And I'm like, you tell me you've never tried that? And he's like, no. And I'm like, why? Like, like, I I mean, I understand you don't like it. You you you you put your hand out front or whatever, but you tell me you never at least once thought, like, you know, this guy has a golden bullet, this guy's got two golden bullets, you know, and here's how they all do it. So, you know, you know, like you all these people are are are, you know, this guy's got an AG cup and two golden bullets, and you never once thought, like, let me try to do the way he's doing it.

unknown 1:38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:39

And he's like, no, I just I've just done it my way for so long. I just thought, I'm like, man, if I see somebody like, if I see, uh, you know, obviously me, Clay, Austin Tate, we all it we're uh we basically we're a spitting image of each other, minus Clay's trigger pull is the outlier, but like pretty much we shoot exactly almost identical, right? Bushman's is almost identical except for he shoots with his hand out front. Other than that, we're pretty all pretty similar. But if I saw Morgan King or Jeff Geary or Nick Ghadarzi, and they're doing something wild to me, that just seems wild to me. Like, I'm gonna try it. If I see him you would watch, I would try. If I would I would I would try it if I see him doing something.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:28

Have a conversation with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:29

Yeah, you know, if I if yeah, if I seen him like oh, for instance, um Ben Gossett, I I uh I was watching Ben shoot and I was like, what is on his barrel? And it was uh electrical tape.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:45

Yeah, it's a yep, he puts black tape on top, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:49

Yeah, and I'm like, what is that for mirage, I think, right? Yeah, for mirage. Because uh black seracod barrels hold heat, right? Sarakote traps heat, but a stainless barrel doesn't, not as bad. But when you put instead of having just a black barrel, which would uh I guess do the same effect, he's got the stainless barrel, but the uh the black uh uh electrical tape over the barrel. And I'm like, does that actually work? And he's like, look through it, yeah, yeah, it works. And I looked through his scope and I was like, that's crazy that that that works. And I haven't done it yet, just because of out of this laziness. I keep forgetting you. I keep forgetting, but but but it's a great idea, you know, and like it I put that in the toolbox, you know. Um, you know, uh put that in the toolbox of the rest of them. Yeah, put that in the toolbox, like this, you know, so like if I'm about to shoot the the the a match like the heat stroke or something, you know, like old heat stroke where it's gonna be 500 degrees outside, like you know, I might go grab some some tape.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:57

Oh, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:58

Uh I've watched uh I've watched Wade Steve Bill freaking uh pour cold water down his barrel over his barrel, you know, and like I'm like, does that actually work? I was like, is that gonna hurt the barrel? And he's like, nah, nah, it'll hurt the barrel. Yeah, like not pouring it down the barrel, but like pouring it over the barrel, pouring it on the suppressor, pouring it on the uh actual barrel itself, it doesn't hurt anything. It's like it'll evaporate before and it just you know, it it's works way better than a rifle cool. Yeah, you know? Um yeah, yeah, so punch it. Yeah, you know, like if I see somebody, you know, one of these top shooters, you know, um, you know, Nick Godarthi or or or you know Jeff Geary or something, and uh, you know, and they're doing something preposterous, like I just think it's like insane. Like, I'm gonna try it. You're gonna ask the question. Yeah, I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna ask why are you why are you doing it that way? And and and and and then I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna try it and see if I like it. Because like if it's better than my way, um then I'm gonna switch. You know, like uh we've we've all all of us JTAC instructors have evolved uh since 2020 and when we first started, you know. Um, you know, Clay almost predominantly uses uh an MDT skypod now, you know? Yeah, that's true. Instead of uh you guys used a Harris, right? Yep, always there's a Harris. And I I still have a Harris in my bag, but you know, I'm I'm like, you think it's that much better? And he's like, I do. I I really do. And I've got the more I've used it, the more I've got comfortable with it. So what's on my rifle right now? Any MDT? Skypod.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:40

Double pull skypod.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:42

I mean, there you go. And my gremlin bells. We still gotta have gremlin bells. I know, I know those gremlins like to loose loosen up scope rings and everything. And then, you know, Derek Love. Um, I was over at Derek's house the last time I shot his match, and I I just noticed that all his uh scopes have index marks on everything. He indexes every ring, every screw, every suppressor, every every brake, every everything's indexed. And I'm like, well, I had that match in Raton where my scoop came loose and I didn't know it. And you know, we made a funny JTAC joke video out of it. I don't know if you watched it, it was pretty funny, but it was you haven't watched it? I haven't seen it, I've had it. Oh, yeah. So it's it's it was a couple of years ago, but it was I basically made like Clay videoed it and we and we kind of made a joke out of it because I wasn't hitting anything and I couldn't figure out why. And I'm I was like, man, I'm just really sucking today. And Clay's like, You you didn't you're not sucking that bad. He's like, dude, you just missed by like four meals. Like, something's wrong. And I'm like getting mad. I'm like, dude, nothing's wrong. I'm like, dude, I'm you know, my tank, I was getting a tangent then. And I'm like, you know, I'm like, dude, I've checked everything. Like, are the freaking the brakes tight, the barrel's tight, like, you know, everything though, and I grabbed the scope mount and I'm like, the scope mount is super tight, like I mean everything's tight. And then I and he's like, you take your scope, and I'm like, Yeah, the scope's tight. And as I grabbed the scope, it just twisted in the rings. And I'm like, uh, and all I could do is just hang my head, like, oh my gosh. I've been shooting this entire match with this a loose scope. What was crazy is I I, you know, I would I would I would correct for it. Like I'd miss and see a bullet hit five tenths low, and I would come up five tenths and hit the target for a couple shots, few shots until the recoil finally moved the scope enough. But it was like just loose, just tight enough that it would hold the scope for a minute where I'd hit a few targets. So it was like I wasn't getting zeros, you know, I was getting like fours and fives. You know, I would shoot, make a correction, hit a couple, miss, make a correction, hit a few more. And that was just a whole day. And then I got to a stage that was like, you should not. I think the worst guy in the whole match got a seven on it, and I got a two. And Clay's like, dude, you're you're you're literally missing my mils. Like something is off. Something's wrong. And yeah, he's like, I'm like, no, I'm just sucking. He's like, even if you were sucking, you you're not sucking that bad. Like, right, right. Something's wrong. So we we made a funny video because it was like it was one of those deals like you got to laugh about it or cry, and I chose them to laugh about it and make a funny video. Um anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:31

Anyway, man, we're almost at two hours here. I think you gave some great advice in there. I hope I hope people make it towards the end of this thing here and and uh and listen to some of those points. Um man, it's awesome having you on here. Uh I look forward to seeing you at matches all the time, man. And you're fun to shoot with and uh fun to be around, hear the stories and all that. And yeah, I think um Dave Justin, I appreciate you, dude. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:54

Yeah. Uh can I uh leave with one little last story? One uh yeah, we got it, we got a couple seconds here. Okay, so I just want you know, Shannon Kay said something uh uh, you know, a while back and uh a few years ago that really stuck with me. And he said, if you judge uh if you base your character off the uh the way that you shoot a precision rifle, you you you you really have your values screwed up. And I had a guy the other day, and he's like talking about, you know, uh, I'm not gonna say names, but he was just like kind of talking about how, you know, he's just better at everybody than this. Like when when he, you know, he when he shoots this, he just like skull drags everybody or he does that, he's like so much better than everybody. And I'm just like, and then what? And he's like, Yeah, what do you mean, and then what? I'm like, like, and then what? Like, like, okay, you're you you're really good with this rifle. What else? Like, because he was comparing himself to like um some instructors out there that are like you know, that are that have got like some real world experience, combat experience and stuff, and and he's like, you know, I I'll beat this guy, you know, he's a freaking uh Delta Force guy, you know, or whatever, and I'm just like Yeah, yeah. Like, okay, so so you like you're better than this, you know, 20 year special forces veteran, sniper, whatever, right, with a precision rifle, cool. And then what? Like, yeah, how are you at hot wiring cars? How are you at uh halo jumping out of a back of an aircraft? Like, you you know what I mean? How good are you at picking locks? Like, w what else, what other skills do you possess? Like, yeah, I mean you're you're trying to get, you know, like so these guys in the middle, we were talking about guys in the middle of the pack, you know, and just because like you're not winning a match, um, and you're not that does nothing to your character, right? Uh Josh Longenegger, you know, I told you a few years ago. He he was kind of like talking about how like, man, I just can't get any better, you know. Like, I suck. And I'm like, oh, and you're comparing yourself to me. Yeah. Or you're comparing yourself to so-and-so. Yeah, you yeah, yeah, you suck. Okay, but compare yourself to 99.999% of the rest of the world, you are a very, very dangerous individual. I don't want you shooting at me, right? So like, you know, you're middle of the pack, right? Like, and you know, and then you're comparing yourself to this other person, but like, what other skills do you have? Do you have, you know, uh are you can you build a house with your bare hands? Like, right, exactly. Yeah, uh, you know, you you have a lot of these, you know, the the whole uh what's the saying? The uh uh a jack of all trades, uh but master of none is oftentimes better than a master of one, right? So exactly. So like just because somebody's better than you with a precision rifle doesn't say anything about your character. You might you might be middle of the pack with a precision rifle, middle of a pack with a handgun, middle of a pack with a shotgun, middle of a pack with a carbine, but you you know, you might be better than uh, you know, Morgan King with a bolt gun, but you can outshoot him with the other three things, you know. So, you know, exactly don't don't don't don't get down on yourself because you're you know middle of the pack or or or you're just not you know could like again I said it earlier, comparison is the killer of joy. Comparison is the killer of joy. So if you are shooting matches and you're having a great time, keep shooting matches and keep having a great time. Don't compare yourself to somebody else. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:08

Right? I agree. Man, that's that's the words of wisdom here that that we should take away.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:14

Yeah, don't compare yourself to somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:15

Go have fun. 100%.