The Biggest Myth About Hornady

In this episode, we sit down with Seth Swerczek from Hornady to talk about the engineering, manufacturing, testing, and real-world shooting experience behind some of the industry’s most influential cartridges and bullets.

We break down why modern cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor, 7 PRC, and 25 Creedmoor exist, how Hornady turns wildcat cartridges into standardized factory options, and why newer designs can offer better performance with less recoil. Seth also explains how modern rifles, optics, rangefinders, and bullet technology have completely changed what shooters should expect from their equipment.

We also get into the difference between match and hunting bullets, Hornady’s product-development process, the company’s Nebraska wildfire relief efforts, and why so many Hornady employees actively compete, hunt, and use the products they help create.

If you’ve ever wondered whether Hornady is really an engineering company or “just good at marketing,” this conversation gives you a look behind the curtain.

Transcript

unknown 0:00

Stand by.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Shoot ready. Stand by.

unknown 0:06

Hip hop.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hip hop.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

All right. Welcome. Seth. Thanks for having me, Ken. Hell yeah. Man, it's good. It's good to see you. Uh, it's good to see you rocking the mustache. I I've I've been in love with that mustache for a while. I don't know if I've given you that feedback.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

I appreciate it. You know what? I feel like the mustache has made a return, you know, just across the, you know, the depending on, you know, regardless of what industry you're in, mustaches are back. And yeah, I shaved this mustache as a joke and then kept it for like a year and a half or two years, and then went back to a beard. And within 30 days, I woke up on a Sunday morning and I was staring out the window, drinking a cup of coffee, the whole house is asleep. And then as soon as my wife woke up and walked out into the kitchen, I walked past her to go to the bathroom and shave the mustache.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

There you go. Love it. I love it, man. Hell yeah. You're looking good as well. Thank you. I and I don't know. I haven't fully committed to the like 2020. I had a Lorax mustache. It was pretty, it was it was uh unkept. It was something else. Yeah, rogue. Rogue. Yeah, rogue mustache. But I think I've committed to now this like sort of white short hair and a little bit of stash. I don't know. But yeah, it has made a return, man. Especially if you're watching professional sports and stuff. I mean, football, baseball. Yeah, I mean, the guys are the guys are wearing it again. It's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

It is cool. Yeah, there's something naturally masculine about a mustache on a baseball player. I don't care who you are.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I agree. I agree. Man, a couple of my favorite players are rocking them. So um, man, so this should come super natural. Uh podcasting is is a big part of your uh big part of your weekly routine, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:53

So oddly enough, Ken, the podcast is very small and as far as like time resources go, and it gets very little attention, truth be told, from the team, right? And the team is essentially me and Preston, and there's you know, some other Judd or other camera guy and a few others, but we all have you know 45, 50 hour work weeks like everyone else, and the podcast is not part of that. We have to squeeze that in where we can. Seriously. And yeah, so the unusual part is the podcast, the Hornady Podcast, has gotten pretty successful within our small bubble, um, against our best efforts, you know what I mean? So we we continue to put more effort into it, but between work, travel, and personal lives and then the actual job that we do, it's it's tough to squeeze in. But um, you know, we're running on five years now, and so we wouldn't do it if it didn't benefit us. And so we're again putting some more resources to it. Uh, but we've got great resources here like Jaden Quentin and Miles and Joe, and we've got a whole team that makes that podcast great.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, yeah. And obviously the special guests and all that you bring on to talk, you know, all things recreational shooting and competitive shooting and all of that. Yeah, that's it. Actually it gives me a little comfort hearing that because I I feel like our podcast, I mean, there's some weeks, you know, like you know, we we throw out a wide net, right? And like you were you were kind of part of that, where it's like Seth, hey, you can come on to a podcast, like schedule some time, you know, and let's do it. And we'll go some weeks where we don't do any, you know, like we record none. Um, and then there's some weeks where it's like back to back to back to back to back, and you just like that it feels like that's how we are as a podcaster media company, you know. Um, but it is, I don't want to say it's an afterthought because it's it's something we're constantly working on, but like the the re recordings can just kind of come and go, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Um very much the same way here where it, you know, it's a hungry baby and it needs fed every two to three hours, like a baby, you know. So this thing needs fed. Yeah, you know, we we do a podcast a week and it needs fed every week. And whether that means you record it six hours before it's released, or you bank up, you know, you bank up six or seven episodes and you feed off that, like during hunting season for us, yeah. You know, we're all everybody's gone in the office, and so we'll bank up as many as we can so that you know with the busy travel schedule, trade show season, and uh, you know, the summer shooting schedule, baseball's it's it's crazy. So, yeah, sometimes it's uh feast or famine where you yeah, you go a week or two with nothing, and then a few days where you can taste colors you've been talking so much.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Right. Let's take a brief break in a show with Hornady to give a shout out to Hornady, title partner of the PRS, as well as the official bullet and official ammunition. Every now and then you'll hear someone say, Hornady's just really good at marketing. Maybe. Or maybe they're just really good at building bullets and ammunition that keep showing up at the top of the leaderboard. It's amazing how winning has a way of making your marketing stand out. Go check out the A tips and YLD line of match grade ammunition at Hornady.com. Yeah, so let's talk about the Hornady overall marketing, right? And like the team that you guys have and and like the efforts that you guys put in all over the place, right? Because I think it's um from a from a partner perspective and and knowing you guys and the team and seeing where all the efforts are made, like from a partner, I I start to recognize it everywhere. Um, and whether that's walking to my, you know, walking into the local gun shop and you see a couple hornity signs or banners, you know, because you the product's there. Or if that's like man, opening any shooting-related catalog, right? You're like, it's like, oh, there's a hornity, right? Like, and it seems to be present everywhere. Is that is that let's talk about the marketing strategy. Like, uh you're you're a big part of the team. Like, what uh what do you what what efforts do you guys put in? Where do we see all that?

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Sure. Well, uh, what's really cool is Hornady actually innovates no products and has no actual engineering staff. We're just a marketing company, as most people uh like to poke us with. Uh but no, I'm marketing team.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Okay, very good at marketing, very good at development, very good. But all you see is that, you know?

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yeah, I just I don't know. I always I always find that funny, especially uh Ken. I'm not sure if you've been in our four walls. I say four walls, we've got three huge facilities. Um but the the manufacturing power, the development and engineering power that we have here is pretty cool. And the marketing team for the footprint that we have in the industry, our marketing team and every other team here is actually really small. We run very lean uh because we still are that small family-owned company. Now we've grown since I've been here, you know, quite a bit, but we're still a small company and the marketing team is no different. We've got a lot more seats now than we did when I started in marketing. I think we grew from maybe six or seven people in marketing to 10 or 11 people in marketing, right? So it's still not uh not a big team by any means when you compare us to some of the big industry giants. Oh my gosh. Yeah. But where we try, what our our strategy is just like you and your podcast, we try to cast a wide net because Hornady makes products for the precision rifle competitor, for the precision rifle hunter, and then the not precision rifle hunter, the lever gun hunter, the subsonic hunter, the AR-15 hunter, the target shooter, the F-class shooter, bench trest, backyard plinking. I mean, you name it from you know, any ammo that goes into any firearm for the most part, we we want to have a hand in that, and that includes military and law enforcement contracts as well. So it is a very, very wide net. And then I think the other thing that helps us have such a prominent, you know, kind of brand recognition in the space. One, you have to have products that are actually good. You you have to have a product that will stand on its own if you gave no marketing effort, right? So 100%. Uh you gotta have that. You know, uh one of the products that I think about in that regard is uh it's an old kind of design, older design now, still used everywhere, and that's the KMW logger head. You know, the Cheekriser logger head that goes into a stock. Yes. Has he advertised ever advertised ever? I not that I've ever seen, but it's no but you see the product is so great, yeah, it's used. All these manufacturers use it. And so we we have a good product, cast the wide net, and then as always, you know, the the old there's a lot of adages you could put on here. You catch more bees with honey, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah, then vinegar, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yeah, so we want to be very easy to do business with. Uh on the sales side, that's one of Jason Hornady's huge commitments is if if you need something, call us and we'll take care of you. It should be that easy. And we do the same thing with marketing. Uh, if you need posters, banners, range flags, stickers, the list goes on and on and on. Well, yeah, why would we not want to provide that to you? And so being easy to do business with has helped get you know that wide net, you know, cast where it needs to be.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yep, yep, absolutely. Yeah, and and and you see the Horn of D H everywhere, right? And like I I mean, I'm wearing it, wearing it today. I have I have tons of tons of product, you know, with the Horn of DH, obviously, because we're we're partners and all of that too. But um, actually, let's let's talk about this. Uh Nebraska strong. Um, I think I I probably saw it on your story on Facebook. Uh that was the first place I saw it. You know, like, oh, what is this? And then you know, saw it, and I'm like, all right, buying a shirt for me, buying a shirt for my son, right? And I and he he looks good wearing it. Um tell us, tell us. It went for a good cause, right? Tell us about this situation.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, so you know, Nebraska, you live this life too, Ken. You live in a state, as do I, that most people would consider flyover country. You know, I mean, you've got a little bit more uh tourist attraction, but Nebraska really has not a lot of farming now. Yeah, right. So Nebraska being a flyover state, not many people know or care for good reason what's going on here, right? And so you have that existing, and then you have some kind of preconceived thoughts of what Nebraska landscape looks like. And a lot of people will come to Nebraska and they'll go to like Omaha, Lincoln, all the way up to Grand Island, which is where we are, and that's eastern third of the state, and they assume that's what the rest of the state looks like, and that is not the case. There is a huge chunk of Nebraska that I mean it's not two-thirds of the state, but it is a huge chunk of the state that is extremely hilly with no agriculture to speak of. Uh because they're they're hills of sand. So long ago there were there was no trees in Nebraska, and even still Nebraska's ranked either 49th or 48th in the states with the least fewest trees. Yep. And the wind swept across the Great Plains and the prairie and built these huge hills of sand. And these sand hills are sitting on top of the Ogallala aquifer. So there's w plentiful groundwater. So these sand hills are covered with native grass that's only 18 inches tall, but it's got 10 foot of roots into it, and it's got really, really nutrient-dent grass. And I'm telling you all of this to paint the picture that the Nebraska Sand Hills region is one of the top beef producing regions in the world. And that grass being, you know, having access to that that water with those deep roots and it's native, uh, the cows thrive in that environment. So you have an area where you can graze uh a cow calf pear on 40 acres. And you know, you go west into Wyoming, you're gonna double that number, right? So we've got this wonderful, wonderful that's why Nebraska's the beef state. Again, and again, you can't plant corner beans in it because it's physically sand. That's you're not growing it. So we have this beautiful area that's largely uninhabited, huge ranches, very old ranches, and we had some wildfires that started up uh going all the way back into gosh, was this March? Yeah, it was March this year. And it unfortunately carried on and carried on and carried on. And in total, um, Nebraska lost roughly a million acres of this precious grassland, and that was absolutely devastating when you start losing grass. Because you know, if you're a uh a cattle rancher and you're selling your calves, uh, that's how you make money is you have to have access to the grass because if you have to pay to feed them hay, that's a money losing future. Yeah, it's a losing battle right off the bat. So we yeah, we we felt compelled to try to do something, right? So uh, you know, our marketing director spoke with the ownership of the company, Steve and Jason, and they said we we should be able to do a fundraiser to provide some relief here, and so that's exactly what we did. The Nebraska Cattlemen is an organization that represents Nebraska Cattlemen. It's worn several names, it's been an organization since the late 1800s under a different name, and they established a disaster relief fund specific for this. So we teamed up with them and sold the Nebraska Strong t-shirts. Uh, and it was actually really cool. What started off as you sell the t-shirt, we'll donate the proceeds. Uh it turned into, well, we'll donate the proceeds and the Hornady family will match the dollar amount. And then it turned into, we're gonna do that. And the manufacturer of the t-shirt, uh, Horizon, uh, they're the Hornady gear dealer, okay, they agreed to donate their portion as well. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

So the whole the whole supply line is is now bought into this. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yep. And so, you know, we felt so compelled because Nebraska's only got, I don't know, one and a half or one point six million people in the whole state. One million of them live east of where I'm sitting. So the western, you know, half or close to two-thirds of the state, there's not many people out there, but those people take care of each other because you have to. There's there's not a whole lot of infrastructure out there, and those are our friends. You know, we recreate, we hunt, uh, we fish, we bird hunt out there, and they literally are feeding the country with beef. And so you you have to do something. And all told, I don't remember the exact number, it was north of fifty thousand dollars got donated. That's right. The hay that got brought in from all of these states surrounding us, it was incredible. There was trucks, semi-trucks pulling in with hay, driving through little towns, and people standing on the street waving, and people literally crying. That is cool. And hay is relatively inexpensive, but diesel's not. And so to truck that stuff in, it was just the outpouring of support was incredible.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

That's awesome. So that so most of those proceeds or all those proceeds went to basically just make sure these cattle are are fed, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Yep. Yeah, because the fear is uh when you're running a cow caught cow calf operation, yeah. Uh the fear is if you have to recoup some money, yeah, you will keep back some of your first year heifers instead of selling them. Yeah. And uh you have to you have to keep some of them back, right? To replace the old ones. Well, if you have to sell more of those to re to recap some money, your herd gets smaller. Yep. And if the herd gets smaller, your next year's worse. So you have to sell more of those first year heifers. And so that can be a real problem. And when you lose your grazing, a lot of those cows are getting ready to come home to their summer ranges. That was the concern is yes, the infrastructure, the fences, the buildings, the cows today, but years from now, this could really be a problem.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Long-lasting impact. So yeah, I mean, support it, support it with everything you can today, and hopefully, hopefully you're like neutral year over year. Right. Yep, yep. Awesome, awesome. So I uh as you were describing the uh landscape of you know, eastern Nebraska versus western Nebraska, or that western two-thirds, you know, like I'm kind of imagining like that is Wisconsin and Michigan, um, describing like, hey, we have all this population in the southern part of the state, and then everybody goes up north to Russia.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

And there's nothing up there.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

No, not much.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Beauty abounds up there, very pretty areas of the country.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Yep, yeah. And and when you hear of like most small towns have no industry, and you don't know how like the you know the people survive and all that. I mean, it's tourism and and recreation and stuff like that. And um so as you're describing that, like this huge part of western Nebraska, is that is that where the big deer are?

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Like, you know, it's there's big deer, there's big deer in a lot of places across the state, and they're they're just different, right? So in the eastern part of the state, uh you have more timber, and so you know, the rivers are are up obviously a corridor everywhere, but you have more timber there. So you have the iconic, you know, big corn fed white tail. Yep. Yep. So you have that going on. The one thing that you'll find on the eastern side of the state, as far as big whitetails go, which there are out there, is you get a little bit smaller tracts of land, right? So you have a farmer that's on, you know, a few hundred acres versus a few thousand acres. Sometimes those deer, when they go to the neighbors, they don't they don't have a chance. Uh in the central part of Nebraska and West, though, you end up with a lot bigger chunks of property. Yeah. And then you have a good blend of mule deer and whitetail.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

And uh there's and those deer may never see a person. You know, it may go years without seeing a person, right? Like, because they can they can sit hang out on a chunk of land that you know, has some ranchers and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

But yeah, they'll see a cowboy every now and then. There's a big chunk of public land I hunt that's right around 45,000 acres. And when you zoom out and you think like, oh, there's you know, hundreds of thousands of acres of national forest when you get in the mountains, so forty-five thousand is not that big. Well, when it's walk-in only. When you're on foot looking for a deer, it's pretty small. I mean, it's pretty big. You can get lost in there. And uh yeah, a lot of those deer, you see the occasional cowboy rounding up, you know, cattle. Uh if you the occasional person bumping around on foot or on horseback, but um, yeah, there's there's lots of places for deer to hide out there. And okay, the biggest typical white-tailed buck was actually found the general in 1958, maybe 50, 45, 50 miles north of where I'm sitting. Okay. Yeah, and that's right in that sand hills transition where if you go west of there, you're in the hills, and if you go east of there, you're kind of more traditional canyon type country. Timber stuff.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yep. Okay. How big was how big was the general?

SPEAKER_02 18:55

The general 218, typical.

unknown 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Biggest typical found. Yeah, it it was insane. Uh and that was in 1958. He threw it in the barn.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Show his buddies once in a while. That's crazy.

unknown 19:12

Man.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

All right. Uh so transition to hunting here. Um I was having a conversation yesterday um with a friend of mine here in Wisconsin. And he he comes from uh uh he even grew up up north, you know, where there's where there's not a whole lot and moved down here for work and all that. But he was telling me a story about uh growing up in the in the family farm that was up north, and his uncles and you know, and and dad and grandparents, you know, all these guys that he hunted with, they all had 270 Winchesters or 30 Ot Sixes. And he at the age of 18 or 19 or something like that decided I'm I'm gonna use a more modern cartridge to hunt with and do all the things with. And one of his uncles had a 308, so he bought a 308. And and everybody like, oh, you can't hunt with that, right? You need a 270 or an odd six, right? And you know, of course, this is two guys driving in a truck, we're coming from a match. Um you know, we laugh at it because we're precision rifle shooters and we've gone through the evolution. I think probably both of us started with 308s, you know, and then have shot everything, you know. Um let's talk about this argument. And if you went up north or if you went to you know some small small bar in western Nebraska, you would have the same guys talking, right? And it's oh, I got an odd six, I've killed a lot of deer, it's flat shooting, it's this and that and the other thing. And if you bring up a modern day cartridge, you're gonna be in an argument, right? Like, nah, you don't need that. What what what do I say in that, you know, in that argument? Like, man, a lot has happened in a hundred years and a lot of developments happened. Like, this is why we have modern cartridges and why we shoot modern cartridges. Like, what do I what do I say to the 2706 guy?

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Well, the first thing I always say is you're absolutely wrong. I'm just kidding. I never say that. I never say that. That's a good way to get punched in the mouth, actually. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Spend all night arguing about it.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah. No, I always say start off with that there is nothing wrong with the the what you would call traditional cartridges. Because they've they've worked then, they work now, they're gonna work in the future. Where you start to see a necessity to switch to a more modern cartridge or something custom, which we'll talk about, is when those legacy products with legacy factory ammo can no longer do the job I'm asking. And the way I frame it is when I'm hunting, let's say, you know. Western Nebraska public land, you gotta earn on any public land hunt, on any hunt in general. But let's just say let's say public land hunting where there's a lot of pressure. Yep. And there's a lot of preparation and you know there's a lot of planning and whatever. I never want to get out there and have the reason that I didn't punch a tag be because my equipment held me back. I want to be the limiting factor. And so when you frame it that way, well, if I'm never outside of the performance envelope of a factory built 270 with factory ammo, then it then I never need to change. Yep. But if the range becomes just a little bit farther than what I feel comfortable with this bullet out of this rifle doing, whether that be velocity, impact velocity, or uh uh act actual precision, the accuracy of the whole system, that's when you know that would precipitate. Hey, let's let's look into something maybe a little more modern. Or you take the 270, but you get a custom chamber reamer and a custom fast twist barrel and a you know a custom hand load and you make your own.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

You yeah, you for sure could you you could I hate I hate to even say it, like you could accurize a 270, right? Like you you could run really long modern bullets and hand yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

And yeah, the other thing is I'm a kind of a proponent of this as well, is how much recoil is truly necessary. I've killed a lot of animals with a hot rod 22, 22 creamore, and 22 arc. Oh, yeah. And I don't need to eat the recoil. No, and even if the recoil is not bad, but I'm shooting off a tripod, I don't I don't need the extra recoil. I can do more with less. So that would there's another reason uh to to why these modern cartridges um, you know, you might want to consider one. And you know what? The legacy cartridges have been around a long time, they always will be. And to quote my good friend Tyler Freel, the new cartridges are just a fad and they'll probably blow away in the wind in the next 50 to 75 years.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, 50 to 75 years. They've uh you know what I I I hope he's right. I from coming from an engineering background, like, man, wouldn't that be a sweet world we live in? That the like that the that the 6'5 Creedmoor, which I think in today's uh today's everything, hunting, market for hunting, for precision, for you know, competition, for for all of it, seems to be like Manette is like the baselined, perfect round. Like it does everything, right? And and I'm not just saying that like I I like I you know, because I'm talking to Hornady and and Seth, right? Like it is an all-round, like it it just does so many things really well, right? And people want to hate it and say, you know, the Creedmore fanboys and all of that. And like that's fine. Like it's it just yeah, I mean the golden bullet was no, a golden bullet was on my shirt with a six five Creedmore, you know? Yeah, a lot of matches won with a six five Creedmore, a lot of elk taken with six five.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

I was gonna say a lot of animals die, you know, and I always liken that to uh if you're a car guy, the argument about how many people absolutely hate the Ford Mustang or the Chevy Camaro. Now, are there design features about either of them that maybe aren't as good or bad or whatever? Sure. You can hate it all you want, it's still a great platform to go fast if that's your goal. And likewise, the Creedmore might not be the best cartridge for everything, but it's a pretty darn good platform.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, I so a little story. Um last uh last year, and ironically this happens in Nebraska too. Uh or the story includes Nebraska. Um a friend of mine uh who I didn't know actually was a hunter at all. I've I've taken him to a few PRS matches to kind of get his feet feet wet. And he's he's a buddy of mine, I thought, you know, from the gym. And I'm like, this guy probably think PRS is pretty cool. Like you should come out and try it, you know. And I watched him evolve throughout a match from going like like eyes wide open, what am I doing to like the last stage or two? He was actually really um he was like really engaged in getting it. Like he like absolutely was like, man, like this is cool, you know, and and and um, you know, figuring out his own dope and figure like his own stage plan and like dialed in. I'm like, man, that's awesome. Well, like a few months after that match, uh, he says, Hey, I uh and he and he he works for a local contractor that has vendors that like to take their like purchasing people out and do fun things. He's like, I got invited to go on a on a whitetail trip in Nebraska. All right. Like, uh yeah, that's what that is exactly my response. I'm like, oh, let's go, you know? And immediately I'm looking for tags in Nebraska too, because I'm like, what's it take for me to get out there and do it? But so he says, Hey, I um can you help me? Uh, can we go to the range sometime? And he doesn't have a range membership up here, nowhere to go. We don't have any public ranges really nearby. He's like, Can can you help me get my my rifle sighted in, you know, ready to go? I'm like, absolutely. I love doing this, you know. We get out there and he pulls a you know, I think it's a Ruger M77. You know, it's it's it was a nice, nicer bold action rifle, synthetic stock, whatever, you know, kind of a run-of-the-mill deal in 30 odd six with a you know cheap three, three to nine on top that um you know has cap turrets and all that. And I'm like, I'm looking at this thing. He doesn't have a bipod for it. So, you know, I I brought you know my Harris that clips onto the sling slings swivel stud or whatever and some bags. I'm like, all right, we're gonna we're gonna do everything we can to make sure this is nice and stable and we can we can get this thing dialed in. And I'm like, I'll I'll shoot it first so that I know like good trigger press and all that, and we can see where it is on paper. We'll make an adjustment and then you can shoot it from there. And I took one shot with this thing, and I'm like, nope, nope. I'm like, that was a good press. I hate recoil. Yeah, we get spoiled. Yeah, no joke. No, I mean in modern weapon systems and modern cartridges and all like it's made us lazy, maybe. I don't know, or recoil uh you know, really or something. So I do that, take that first shot, nope, make some adjustments, and I'm like, here you go, man. We'll we'll have you take three or four more shots, you know, at 100, make sure it's dialed at 100, and then I'll have you take probably one or two at 200, and that's as far as the range goes, and then we'll kind of have an idea. I'll I'll I'll tape on a you know rudimentary dope card to the side of your rifle. You should be good to go for 300 yards, maybe in Nebraska. I mean it watching him shoot, he's a big dude. He's a he's a bodybuilder, you know, or uh or uh barbell kind of guy, you know. And um I'm like, man, I I have zero tolerance for these types of rifles and cartridges, and I'm not yeah, I'm not shooting that thing anymore. And we get we get through it rifles shooting okay, you know, uh with factory ammo, factory chamber, all of that. And it's probably inch and an inch and a half at a hundred, you know, three inches at two hundred, like that'll be good enough for a deer. Yeah, you'll you'll kill a deer for sure. Yep, you'll kill a deer. Well, and given he's had a little bit of a taste of PRS and stuff, and he knows what these rifle systems are capable of. About a week before he goes out, he says, Man, do you have anything I could maybe borrow that would increase my chance of success? And I'm like, absolutely, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Got a sportsman's rifle, I'll set up.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Well, so I do, I do, but even better than that, I'm like, man, I got a I have a 7 PRC. It was built by GA Precision. Uh, and I have a set of Leica uh Geovids with the ballistic solver art profile ready to go. And and I, you know, so he came over to the house and like, hey, it's got and it has a loophole Mark IV on it. So I said, and you shot PRS, you you understand ballistics, and you know, just point, right? Dial to whatever it tells you to dial, and you gotta make a little bit of an adjustment for wind. Like, you know, and I and I kind of told him, yeah, yeah, use your head. You're gonna have to hold a little bit either way, you know, don't leave the target. You know, if if you find yourself having to leave target, you know, or the animal, like that's probably not a shot you should be taking. Well, he sent me a text like two days into this trip, and he's like, dude, it worked out. You shot a really nice white tail, probably small Nebraska, but huge Wisconsin. 300 320 yards, no problem. Yeah, you know, you he shot off a game changer, he said, you know, that I gave him and uh just shot or lazed it, dialed, good to go. Easy peasy. Easy peasy. And that's how it should be. 100%. 100% that's how it should be. And man, I I got the you know, I think about that situation. Actually, ironically, uh, he gave it to he gave the rifle and uh stuff to a friend of ours to give back to me as a neighbor. And then when he went to leave it at the house like the week before hunting season, I'm like, man, do you want to use this? Like, I'm gonna be shooting at 25 PRC, like you can go ahead and use this. And he's like, Absolutely. And he shot another one like a week later with it at 330 yards or something. It was a touch further, you know, but did the same exact thing, you know, lays, dial, shoot. Um, I I got to thinking about that. I'm like, that seven PRC I have is probably 11 pounds, maybe. Um, all really good equipment. And I had a you know, suppressor on it when I shoot it, and it like it's I would much rather shoot a seven PRC than a 30.6 out of like a you know, uh a factory rifle system. Oh why is that? Because it's way more powder, like it's it, it's it should be brutal to shoot.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

I think it's all comes down to how you build the rifle, mainly the stock configuration. Preston back here behind the camera, he had a buddy get a Nebraska elk tag. We were zeroing his router, M77, 270 Winchester, laid down prone. I took one shot and I said, No, I mean the story that you just said is identical to what happened. So Preston gritted his teeth, and there was a load of 130 CXs or GMX's at the time that shot reasonably well and was like, that just take this, we're done. I'm not doing that again. And I think the stock geometry has a lot to do with it. Obviously, the muzzle brakes, suppressors, uh, but the stock geometry for sure makes a world of difference.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah, it's gotta be, right? You know, and I get it, like uh the the big big manufacturers of these, you know, rifles that you know are iconic, right? And they've killed a lot of a lot of animals, like are they definitely cost conscious, right? And they're trying to do everything they can within a a cost window that's gonna be attractive for you know their customers, right? Um but I just man, I I a seven PRC should absolutely destroy your shoulder. And and and my rifles, man, I I'm very comfortable shooting that. It is comfortable shooting with a sportsman rifle, you know, a 6-5 creed.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Put a yeah, a nice muzzle device, put it in a you know, a manners or you know, some of the new stuff from John Kyle over at Foundation, yeah, and it does become incredibly manageable. And truth be told, yeah, the seven PRC kind of the like the 300 was great, but during initial design, it was like this is unnecessary. Yeah, it's like now I shoot a lot of stuff with the 22 Creedmore. It's like I just yeah, I don't need the extra recoil.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah. Let's take a brief break in a show with Hornady to give a shout out to Hornady, title partner of the PRS, as well as the official bullet and official ammunition. Every now and then you'll hear someone say, Hornady's just really good at marketing. Maybe. Or maybe they're just really good at building bullets and ammunition that keep showing up at the top of the leaderboard. It's amazing how winning has a way of making your marketing stand out. Go check out the A tips and Yield line of match grade ammunition at Hornity.com. Let's let's talk a little bit about like caliber development and whatnot. Um one of the one of the things um I I was reflecting on and you know prior to this podcast is the 25 Creed, right? And uh I'm gonna give I'm gonna give kudos to the NRL Hunter and their rule set for um, you know, they they they basically built guidelines for the sport, and then of course the competitors are gonna take every last little bit of those guidelines to optimize the rifle system for for you know being the most competitive. They're gaming it. Yep. Yeah, I it said gaming in a hundred percent. I mean, that's yeah, that's the point should do that. That is the point, exactly. And it was February of 25. Uh Hornity sponsored or uh the Sammy to make the 25 Creedmore uh a Sammy standard uh round, right? That's right. Um what so what what is it about like adopting a Wildcat, we'll say that uh like that. I mean what what what's the what's Hornity's game in doing that? And like uh talk about the evolution and making that decision and and and and the path to go forward with that.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Well the 25 Creedmoor is a great example of you know us kind of pulling the trigger quickly, or certainly more quick than we had in the past, and I'll juxtapose that against the six millimeter Creedmore. So to go back in time with the six millimeter Creedmore, it existed as a wildcat the day the 30 TC was released, right? Because that's what wildcatters do.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

And so the six Creedmoor was awesome and is awesome. And over the course of it being a wildcat, the you know, the years and years that it was a wildcat, there was a lot of different geometry in the front half of that chamber, mainly with free bore length. Um, so you had uh, you know, 180, 140, 120, bunch of stuff in the middle. And so that existed. And when we were like, okay, we're there's enough demand, we're going to make this a standard SAME cartridge. Now, this is going back 2014 or 15 time frame. Yeah. Uh we we laid out the bullets in the chamber and said, okay, this needs that 180,000 free boar to be done right. So we're gonna do that. 180,000 free boar, cool, Sammy spec. Well, when several OEM manufacturers started building rifles, they called, you know, a reamer manufacturer. We want six Creedmore, cool. Well, what they received was 140,000 free board reamers, and now you end up with our ammo buried. Uh yeah. Luckily, most of the time get it to chamber uh because a 40,000 jam is quite a bit of jam. Uh, but if you could pound one in there, you're gonna get real evident signs of high pressure. So that was a problem. So with the 25 Creedmoor, it existed also as a wildcat. You know, Richard Mann, the outdoor writer, called it the 250 Hillbilly, and it existed there for a while, but there was no bullets to really support it. So it, you know, wasn't ever popular. Well, as soon as it started becoming popular in precision rifle sports, yeah, we wanted to get ahead of the chamber to ensure that what happened with the six Creed didn't happen with the 25. And ironically enough, it should have a 200,000 free bore. Yeah, 25 Creedmore should have a 200 and 200,000ths free bore length. Well, Alpha had already been making reamers and brass stamped 25 Creedmoor with the shorter free bore. And so we said, okay, that's what you've been making, that's what the standard's gonna be. Regardless, does it need the extra 50 or 60 thousandths of free bore to be air quote right? Yes, but there's already guns out there like this, so we're gonna standardize this free bore so that what's existing will work on a small remote ammo.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Or short, on a short remote.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Okay. And so that was the goal with the 25 Creedmoor. Largely, though, what we want is the everyman. We want your your friend from the gym, we want your neighbor to be able to go to the store, buy this rifle, buy this box of ammo, and get incredibly high performance, performance good enough to go shoot a match with. And historically, you hadn't been able to do that without a either a custom rifle or custom hand load. So the goal with our cartridge design and us standardizing cartridges is to make that level of performance available off the shelf to everybody. Because that's where everybody wins. That's where you end up making your money because everybody can just go get this. They don't have to scratch their head and piece this, that, and the other thing together.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

That's that's crazy. So how uh let's talk about the development then, right? Like, so maybe maybe we go all the way back to six five greed. Yeah. Um, that development cycle probably was years in the making, right? Before its its release. I mean, probably before your time, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:04

It was definitely before my time. That one, so it started life as a 30 TC. Yep. And that one, not years in the making, and generally, nothing is years in the making as far as new cartridge design goes. Uh the Creedmore specifically, that was a conversation at Camp Perry between Dennis DeMille at the time, president of Creedmore Sports, Neil Davies, our marketing director, Joe Thielen, assistant director of engineering, and uh Dave Emory, our senior ballistic scientist of like we need an across the course cartridge that does everything. Well, if you're gonna do it, you know, make it in 6'5 at the time. And oh, we've we've got a great parent case, we should just do that. You know, like we could we could play with the 260, but if we do, it's gonna end up looking like this 30 TC, this neck down to 6'5. Uh so it was probably a few months, handful of good months, and then maybe a year before it was launched. Um so they actually don't take that long. The only thing that slows them down as far as new cartridges go is if you know ownership isn't ready to release it. Uh for example, the 7 PRC was on my radar for a long time. And so the 30 T or excuse me, the 30 PRC 300, excuse me, and the 6-5, they're out there doing great. Yeah, they were well, I want a seven, I'm a seven guy. So uh in that time, Nozzler comes out with the 28 Nozzler. They did. We hear about it, they come back from the Sammy meetings. Dang, you know, it's it's real close, but it's just it's not right. All those little things that you would want in a factory cartridge with a factory rifle. Yep, they just they just missed the mark by just a little bit. Dang. Okay, well, I guess we'll start making our own. So that seven PRC project happened really quickly between selecting the right cartridge size, selecting the right chamber dimensions, building a couple guns, ordering a test barrel, getting brass manufactured and everything. Okay, so yeah, that took four, five, six, seven months, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Which is which is quick, honestly, because if you think about it, like you want it somewhere between the six five PRC and the three hundred PRC, and like, yeah, okay. Well, do you could you base it off the six five PRC case and just kind of blow it out? Or which we did. We tried that. Yep. Or do you neck down a 300, you know, and have all that case volume?

SPEAKER_02 41:22

Which we did not try because otherwise we eat Nozzler would have well, yeah, certainly. Yeah, but yeah, it's we're also looking for factory performance from a you know, we gotta make we gotta make millions of these. So all that work gets done, it's ready to go. And uh that was in 2019. 19, okay. 19, 2020, something like that. But Jason Hornady, uh Steve Hornady, whoever, they were not ready to launch a new cartridge. They didn't know if the the market would be ready for it or whatever. So that product sat on the shelf for well over a year. No joke. Okay. Before Jason Hornady essentially said, All right, you broke and record. Because I hounded him all the time. And then uh, yeah, I moved over to marketing. I continued to hound him, and then we released it. So the the development was actually really quick. It was sat on the shelf just because of you know management ownership. And again, you have to time all of that up with what's going on on the macro. Is the industry going to support a new cartridge? Can you get enough gun builders on board? What's the economics of the world look like? Is this a is this a responsible time?

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah, I mean, uh the timing of all of that has to be right, right? And and you got to have product ready to go. I mean, like, there's so much operationally that you have to consider, yeah, before just willy-nilly launching. So, how long did the 25 creed actually take to like, hey, idea? Uh, you know, there's wildcats out there, there's guys already winning matches and stuff with it. Like, there's reamers available, like, you know, this thing is was kind of already pretty well defined, probably before you're like, yeah, we should pursue this, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah. That also really short. There was a brief period where we were going to do things what I would call the right way, which that cartridge case needs to be a little bit shorter with a longer freebore, and that would set the bullet up perfectly inside the next shoulder junction uh of the case for our modern bullets and fit within our 2.850 overall length restriction. And then that was pretty quickly abandoned. I want to say within a couple of months, that was like, hey, the the industry's already supported these. And then from there, it was just another handful of months to get in. It took a little bit longer because back during the seven PRC days, like I mentioned, I could call Frank at Bartline and get a P and V barrel in four to six weeks. Yeah. Fast forward twenty five Creedmore. You call Frank, you're getting a P and V barrel in, you know, six to seven months. Yeah. If he you know, if he has the capacity to do it. So um just that d would delayed things getting into P and V equipment, but uh for the most part, no, things happen pretty quickly. And that's one of the things being family owned and not having to answer to a board of directors or worry about being publicly traded, that helps us a ton. If you get ownership to sign off on it, you're off to the races.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Yeah, now we're going. Especially, especially uh you know, a guy like Jason, too, who you know has a has a uh sense of authority around him. Like if he's telling you to do it, like we're getting it done.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Yeah, well yeah, yep, full steam ahead. And that's been such a wonderful work environment. He didn't know anything about the seven PRC, admittedly, when I was working on that, uh up until I had the project pretty close to completion. Uh uh that's kind of one of those black ops deals. But I I we knew it was gonna be a success, and as it turns out, it it has done all right.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Yeah, no joke, right? No joke. Yeah, I it's funny that you know there's this sort of uh commentary out there about like, well, this is just another thing, you know, that that Hornady releases and and is gonna do a bunch of marketing and stuff behind. And I think I I'm disappointed by the folks in the community that you know, typer snipers or whoever that just that automatically go to that point instead of like you know, there's you know, how big is the engineering team there? 25, 30, 30 folks?

SPEAKER_02 45:26

30, yeah, 30 some probably. And that includes you know, industrial civil type of engineers that don't necessarily work on like cartridges and bullets and ammo.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah, it's product design, it's manufacturing operations, all all of that, right? And um from well, let's talk about reloading equipment through bullet design and brass case. I mean, everything, right? Like you guys do everything in-house, right? Yeah, yeah. It's pretty wild. Yeah, it is. It is. It it's just disappointing, I guess, to to somebody who, you know, I I I understand uh the overall business operations, and you have this this commentary that comes in, it's inaccurate, right? And and unfortunately, they're not even giving it a chance saying, you know, like where did the where did the 6.5 creed come from? Well, you know, and and like man, that was developed at a match as a cartridge to do all. And here we're you know, 20 years. Is it 20 years now?

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah, it'll be 20 years next year, I believe. 20 2007 was designed, 2008, January of 2008 was the Sammy, the official SAME approval.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Right. Yeah, so 20 years of doing just what it was set out to do, right? I mean, it does everything across the course, yeah, you know. Um, yeah, we should celebrate that, I guess, next year, the year after, too, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Like the official we'd probably go off the year we announced it in our catalog rather than the year it was developed, but it's coming up on 20 years.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yep, yeah, yeah, and an amazing do all cartridge, you know, that has a you know, a bunch of people that whatever. That's fine. They're missing out. They don't know what they're missing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

We should do a some investigative study on why it happens to be that myth, dogma, and uh these these misconceptions happen so fast, but take so long to dispel.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, overnight, overnight people get this idea, and then yeah, you and yeah, exactly. I still have friends that you know they they started shooting a 260 Remington, you know, and uh they were ahead of the game to select that cartridge to kind of do everything, you know, and and they're still attached to it, which is fine, you know. It we're talking about minor performance differences here and there, right? Um you know, but then that then to downplay everything a 6'5 Creed isn't like man, you're you basically adopted the same thing. Like you can't you did.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Here's the the a great point though, Ken, and we've talked about it, but another great point to just drive this home the people that are shooting the 260 have a faster than Sammy twist rate because you know they're shooting one and eight, not one and nine. Yep, and you know that they're running a custom hand load because you're not buying factory 260 to shoot a macro. Or a lot. So what they're doing is building their performance, or you could just buy the 65 Creedmore. And that's the the whole point of like, yes, the 260 is a fine cartridge, and if you actly improve it or 30 or 35 degree improve it, and then put a faster twist rate in there and a good free bore, well, you end up with 6'5 Creedmore performance. So yeah, the argument is well, it doesn't do anything my 260 can't do. You're right. The difference is I don't have to custom make that. And the same thing could be said for the 65 PRC and a 65284, or the 7 PRC and the 7 Mag, or the 300 PRC and the 300 Wind mag. All of our PRC cartridges are not the fastest trip down the drag strip. They simply give you the performance of a truly custom and custom hand loaded 65284, 7 mag, or 300 wind mag, but now you've got those factory tight dimensions receiver and and the factory ammo.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

All done. Yep. Guaranteed performance. Stuff's gonna work, you know. You don't have yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, I wanna I want to ask uh about modern bullet design, right? And like kind of the the the whole history, I guess, of the last well, it feels like we're in the middle of it, right? I mean, there's a lot of really cool stuff coming out, uh, both on the hunting side and comp competition side. But um, you know, if I've had uh friends outside of the competitive shooting uh, you know, uh community that, you know, it's like, hey, so tell me, tell me why like all this development has happened and like, you know, what why should I get a you know, like you're like the thing you just said, seven seven mil uh mag versus a seven PRC? And actually what I what I initially uh show them is like the Hornity poster that shows all of the cartridges on there, right? I mean, going back hundred years of of cartridges, and it's like, look at how long and sexy that bullet is. You know? Um what let's talk about that. Like, why what has been the development or what's been the the recent history um with bullet design and why it's you know what what has been the evolution?

SPEAKER_02 50:29

There's definitely been kind of a crescendo of a bunch of different things that have driven that, one of which is accuracy expectations and accuracy expectations at ranges that were previously not a concern. So, you know, first you have, oh, I have these rifles and these barrels capable of this level of accuracy. I need a bullet to complement that that can give me the best accuracy. Okay, so you see more drive, whether that be a hunting bullet or a match bullet, into finding more concentricity, better ways to work the jacket to put less stress into it. And then you start the advent of optics with a turret that when you dial a tenth of a mil, it's a tenth of a mil. And you have range finders that give you a very accurate range. Oh, yeah. It's hard to shoot something far away if you don't know how far away it is. Well, now I know exactly how far away it is, and my accuracy expectations at one and two hundred yards are now the same expectations at three, four, five, six, seven, eight, then further. Yeah. And so you have all that going on. So you have to make a bullet that is capable of delivering to those expectations. And then when you start to get to a point where, like, okay, ELDX and ELD match bullets, that was been 2015. Okay, that was a huge monumental. It was everything's awesome. Okay. Well, since then, now we're talking minutiae. You know, you look at like our drag variability reduction technology that we have patented, we literally have design features in bullets that lower the shot to shot drag variability. I mean, we're talking so minuscule of a detail, right? But the shooter, the barrels, the optics, everything has gotten so good that now a very competent shooter can see the difference of a bullet that does or does not have that drag variability reduction technology. And that's just, you know, one example. But you look at you know, boat tails, for example, yeah, you know, a lot of the traditional bullets get poo-pooed on uh because they don't have a boat tail. Well, they only short range bench rest is only flat-based bullets, but when you look at the long range stuff, uh we've refined the boat tail angles and lengths to help again keep that drag as tight as possible from one shot to the next shot so that your you know MOA accuracy at 100 is true MOA accuracy as you start to extend the ranges. So a lot of things advanced so rapidly together at the same time that forced the the the new and modern bullet technology.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of it's that expectation, right? And I and I think I think you've absolutely nailed it on ahead. Like, why why is all this changed when you know people assume like, hey, all that old stuff worked, and it's like, well, it it worked and still does. Yeah. But what is what is your expectation of the whole rifle system and the you know and and what you're shooting and all that, right? And uh I think I think that explains it well. Like everything is just the expectations have been increasing incrementally year over year over year, even since the ELDM, you know, like yeah, since 2015 to 2026 now, like it is the the everything has changed, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:45

It feels like yeah, well, it wasn't that long ago when I shot my first actual PRS match would have been in uh 2014. Wow, there was a lot of us shooting 308s, and then the outlaw matches that I shot previous to that before the the actual, you know, my very first actual PRS match, but that were that style. Man, if you saw a 260 or a Creedmore out there, it was weird because everybody was shooting 308s, and now it's a separate game within the game because things have just gotten so incredibly good. And I joke about this a lot. I'm very much a mid-pack shooter. I was then, I am now. If I shot like now, right now, in 2014, I'm winning the PRS. It's incredible. The average competitor has gotten so incredibly good because the tools have gotten so incredibly good.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Yeah, not only are you winning, but you're you're gonna win by like 10 impacts, and people are gonna be like, What's the what's the special sauce? You know, yep, yeah, crazy. Crazy, yeah. I uh I've I I've I heard recently heard a story about uh name is Matt Brusseau, who I've only met maybe one time, probably five years ago. Um uh but Matt Matt Brusseau went on a run in 2018 and 2019. And Clay Black Edder, when you listen to this, please forgive me, I don't have all the details. Like Clay does because he can he he could probably tell me the match dates and everything. Yeah, but Matt Brusseau went on a run where he he won or took second in like 18 matches, pro series matches in a row over two years. Like he just yeah, exactly. He also was using a bag filled with sand back then, and he wouldn't let anybody touch it. At least that's the story I've been given. You know, it's like nobody touches, and and that was just a a piece of equipment that was ahead of its time, you know. That was the standard. It's it's all it's all we shoot off of, you know. But to take Seth back 10 years and like man, a 6'5 Creedmore, a heavy sandbag, a great optic, you know.

SPEAKER_02 55:54

Well, and my field rifle back then was like 14 pounds, which is laughable now. Glue 10 pounds onto that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

You know, it's a different time. Yeah, 100%. I love playing that what if game. Like, oh man, if I could go back and do it, like I would look so smart.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

I'm glad I didn't, truthfully, because those lighter guns kind of force you to learn some things, and uh now it's it is really fun to run a six arc in a 19-pound gun. Man, is it just bold action six arc? Yeah, dude. Yeah, like a laser beam. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Yeah, yeah. And you know, there's there's so many people out there I think that would say, like, well, that I mean, that's that's such a small cartridge that can't really get the job done. And you're like, no, that that thing is optimized, and and you're getting every ounce of of its effectiveness out of it, right? And a bold action rifle system. And and it, I bet it's just a laser beam, shoots lights out.

SPEAKER_02 56:54

It is, yeah. With the 110 A tip, Miles Neville, good co-worker and you know, good friend of ours. He's ran a six arc now for a bunch of years, and I just shoot because I enjoy it. He's honestly good, and so he'll go out there with top 10, top five finishes with the little cartridge that could shooting 110 A tips at 2775.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

Yep, yeah, exactly. Would all right, I'm gonna hopefully this isn't cross the line. Would you take that same rifle system and bullet and go hunting with it?

SPEAKER_02 57:27

I've shot a lot of A-tips into gel in my previous life when I worked in ballistics. Yep. And if you're hunting a deer you I mean, if you had a good hard rock in the right spot, you know, it's not a particularly tough animal to kill. But I have seen that A-tip in general, but I did shoot the 110 specifically along with a few others, they have really inconsistent upset, very similar to how a boat tail hollow point upsets in gel, where occasionally the tip will push back and it'll mushroom the bullet open. But more often than not, three out of the four things do about four different things, it will do some variety of rip the nose open because the tip won't compress because aluminum's non-compressible, and it'll rip the jacket open and then it'll tumble, and sometimes it'll tumble frag or it'll tumble and then and like blow up. So you have like six inches of penetration and then a hand grenade.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

And I we have documented again in gel where it's just a straight line, it'll break the tip off and then bore a hole.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Right there.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Yeah. So knowing the testing that I've personally done with these in ballistics gel, I wouldn't hunt with the A-tip. I know a bunch of people do. At the end of the day, it's a really thin-skinned bullet, and animals die because of shop placement. So that's the first thing is you got to hit them. You know, you put a hole in their chest and animals die. That's that's reality. So personally, I wouldn't. There's better tools for the job, and I work in a tool shop that makes a lot of tools. So uh personally, uh, no, but I understand why people do that. And you know, certainly a lot of white tails have fallen to the hand of that.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Yeah. I would you would you I guess a 108 ELDM?

SPEAKER_02 59:13

I feel much more comfortable with that over a tip.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

Okay. Yeah, I the biggest deer I ever shot in this uh it's 183-inch white tail, really good looking 13-point. Dude. Ask Ris. What state was that in? Wisconsin. Oh my gosh. High fence. So it was, yeah, it was a high fence deer. Uh friend of mine. That's a giant. I don't care. It's a beautiful. We we um uh so a friend of mine owned the owned the property. Uh he was raising deer on it, um, you know, fed these deer year-round, like the ultimate meal to grow deer. Uh he had he had a lot of typicals. Um, he invited me. He was a you know shooter up here and a friend of mine. And he's like, hey, do you I am done with the Wisconsin Department of Ag. I am done with the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources. I've had enough of doing this. I've done it for like 15, 20 years. He got elk and stuff on a property too. And he's like, I'm gonna take the fences down, which means everything has to be called on a property before I do that. And and then oh my goodness. Right. So he's like, You want to come out and shoot one? I'm like, a hundred percent I do. Thank you. You know, um, it's a beautiful 13 point, 180 some inch, 183, I think is what we scored it right after we shot it. Um, but all day we watched these giant 10-pointers come out that were mid-170s, super tall, beautiful, perfectly symmetrical because he had the best jeans, you know. And he's like, dude, just wait, just wait. There's there's bigger stuff here. You just gotta wait for it to come out, you know. How do you pass 170-inch white tail? Oh my gosh, dude. Yeah, so I and I so I say all this. I was shooting, I had my match rifle, it was a 6 GT with 108 ELDMs. And uh first, you know, we go out into this blind and we're out there first thing in the morning, and like the sun's starting to come up, and at like 400 yards, I watch this 10-pointer stand up, and it was 175 with like the sun behind it, and it's at 400 yards, perfectly still out. I'm like, Scott, oh my gosh, let me do this. Yeah, like let me he's like, God, that thing is beautiful, isn't it? And it's super tall. And he's like, just wait, you gotta be patient. There's a bigger one out here. But I the the one I shot was at 105 yards, you know, and as a like I said, a 108 ELDM at 2700 and it ran 10 yards, you know, and piled up, you know, and and at that point I'm like, you know, if I was on an elk trip that was a once-in-a-lifetime thing, I might look for a different bullet, but like anything within 200 yards, I'm gonna take my most confident rifle system, and that includes shooting a 108. Now it's a 100. I love the 109 ELDM. I think that is. Yes, you got miles to think for that bullet. That's I love it. I I I since that came out, and you could buy it. I think the first pack I bought was I think it was like a 3400 round pack, right? I think it's now 2500. I don't remember what it is. I I bought a couple and that sufficed for a while, but that is like I've run it in all of our demo rifles. Anything 6GT I'm shooting shoots that bullet. Um, it's just super consistent, easy to load. Um, great ballistically, like it's just you know, great to hunt with. Like I do everything with it, you know. Yeah, it's a great, great bullet. And that was yeah, all miles to thank for that one. I'll have to make sure to thank him next time I see him. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. We're at uh about an hour here, and I feel like we need to record another one of these at some point. Maybe, maybe I need to come to you and we record the follow-up.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

Well, I was gonna say, we'd love to have you in this studio. Crawford Bean will do one for the Hornady Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

I love it. Let's let's plan on doing that, man. Um, yeah, any anything else you want to follow up with, Seth?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

No, I just you know appreciate what you've done for the PRS, what the PRS means as a whole, and it's so great because that sport and that organization has driven so much innovation at companies like Hornady. And we have a pile of shooters here. And if nothing else, I hope your listeners that that have followed through this whole podcast, I hope they take away and I hope they understand that these this building is full of people that shoot. Like we we do this, we do this real seriously, and there's a bunch of us, me not included, uh, that are not just doing it but are good at it like miles. Joe Thielen made the world team. And like, you know, for example, uh, so this building is full of hunters, shooters, target shooters, every sport you can imagine from skeet and trap, USPSA, three gun, PRS, all of it. And so just know that that's what Hornady does, and you're gonna continue to see the innovation because we are still active participants. We're designing products that we want to use so that and then yeah, we'll also sell them.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

No, that's awesome to hear, man. And and you know, the PRS doesn't survive without companies like Hornady, is and I'll say especially Hornady and and and the the community that you guys are are part of, right? Like Joe Thielen this year, Miles Neville, like Joe Thielen getting his first uh Pro Series match win and not and doing so uh dominantly. Like I yeah, and beaten Mr. Black Edder himself. Yeah, and I think he gapped Clay by nine or ten impacts.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:37

I don't think Joe had to shoot the last stage almost. I mean, it was a pretty handy, handy job. And what's really cool is full circle, I was there when Joe shot his first PRS match. Okay, it was not so pretty. You shoot in your 6'5 PRC. Um, and just like everybody in their first match, it was it was not awesome. Yeah, but he's the type of guy he he trained, he practiced, he built, he learned. He took a class from Clay, okay the JTAC team, yeah, and used those things that you know the the teacher became the master at at this one. It was kind of cool to see that full circle where he went from very much, you know, a mid-pack performance to got up there, took a class, and then was able to actually implement all that stuff and and come through on top.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yeah, awesome story. I I I I loved knowing Joe for the last three, four years and then and then seeing him ever it seemed like every match just ticking up and doing so for the most part with a 308, right? Yeah, better and better and better. And then that first match where it was like Joe shooting open, like watch out, you know. As soon as he qualified for worlds, he stopped on the office.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:46

I'm bringing out the 25 Kree, taking the training wheels off.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

Yep, exactly. Oh, it's been awesome, man. And the partnership has been great. And um, man, uh you and Neil and Matt Ritchie and uh Miles and Joe, the whole team there that uh that's really close to the PRS, like we we really respect and appreciate the partnership. And um, man, if there's ever anything that the PRS can do for Hornady, just let us know and and uh love it, man. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Ken. All right, we'll talk soon.