Ep. 4 - Item Merchandising Wins: Building a Retail Giant

Factual data without deep customer obsession is just a spreadsheet, and culture without financial discipline is just a social club. In today's hyper-competitive business landscape, blending operational precision with genuine human connection is the only sustainable way to capture market share and defend margins. Former Walmart and Sam's Club Chief Operating Officer Jim Haworth joins the show to share his decades of executive leadership experience scaling global retail giants and directing brand turnarounds.

We sit down to unpack the mechanics of early metro market penetration and what it really took to go head-to-head against established discount chains in the trenches of Tulsa. Jim breaks down the distinct differences between standard assortment strategies and true pallet-driven item merchandising at Sam's Club, along with the operational adjustments required to run hypermarket stores in Shanghai. He also shares a core philosophy from his mentor network: sustainable growth relies on empowering the hourly associates on the shop floor and maintaining absolute respect for supplier relationships.

Scaling a business requires navigating brutal price wars, strict expense control, and the relentless travel demands of running international operations and live sports franchises. You will walk away with a clear framework for balancing strict financial accountability with treating people fairly, whether you are managing a complex supply chain or running a local storefront. The hardest lessons often come from the retail floor itself, where listening to the frontline workers loading the shelves matters far more than any executive theory.

If you care about item merchandising, corporate culture, and timeless retail operations, you’ll get a lot from this. Please subscribe to the Doing Business and Benbo podcast series and share this episode with a fellow operator or industry colleague. When you look at your own organization today, what is the single most important operational metric you rely on to gauge the health of your customer relationships?

0:00 - Introduction & Early Career
7:34 - Store 576 & Metro Competition
19:57 - Sam Walton & Saturday Morning Meetings
28:16 - Sam’s Club & True Item Merchandising
40:03 - International Expansion in Shanghai
46:14 - PBR Turnaround & Core Leadership Principles

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Hi everyone, welcome to Between the Isles. I'm your host, John Reeves. Between the Isles is part of the Doing Business in Bentville podcast series. And lately I've been talking a lot about culture. And when I think about culture, there's a few people that that come to mind of people that really emulated the Walmart culture and not only emulated it, but spread it and still are involved in it today. And uh please welcome former Walmart senior officer Jim Hayworth.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Great, John. Great to see you, man. Great to be here with you. And uh I like what you're doing. I had a chance to watch several of the different episodes, and you know, I think it's it's fun to go back and look at the history and talk about things the way they are, but also how that applies to today.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So great to be with you. Right. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that very much. Um yeah, I do one of the things I want to do is bring forward voices that that made a difference. And and Jim, you certainly were one of those. Why don't you update everybody on on your career and where you started, and and maybe we'll walk through some of the progressions. You've got a very, very uh distinguished Walmart career, but very diverse after Walmart. So I want to talk about that too.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Well, I should always get people, John. One of these times, uh one of these days I'll find something I can do really well. And so I'm gonna keep working at it. So uh done done a lot of things, as you said, you know, John. I was fortunate. Started straight out of college, yeah, you know, for Walmart. Uh, you know, worked my way up as an assistant manager, you know, ran stores. Fortunately, ran you know, 144 right here in Fayetteville, Arkansas is one of my first stores. Uh, you know, worked the way up through the business, became regional vice president, went over to Sam's, became the COO at Sam's Club. Great experience. And, you know, I know you like to sell merchandise. That that wholesale club experience and you know, item merchandising is so exciting. Yes. Then went back to Walmart, became the COO at Walmart, and lots of experience to do that. Uh from Walmart, went and moved to China. I actually did some consulting for the CP group and took over their retail business uh as the chairman and CEO uh there in in uh China. We had stores all throughout China. Uh and you know, I lived in Shanghai for about uh six years, and so it was great to watch that emerging consumer and a lot of things that were you know happening in the U.S. years before were happening in China. So it was a it was a great time. Was recruited to come back and help Eddie Lambert with uh Sears Holding and Kmart was the president of uh retail for Sears and and Kmard and the transformation officer for Eddie. So uh, you know, after about a year of that, John, I realized that Eddie and I saw retail differently. Eddie's a really smart man, does you know a lot of great business things, but it was just different.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

And so I at that point in time I, you know, took over something that really fit real well with uh you know retail. And I took over as the CEO for the professional bull riders.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

That's great. He already had the hats and the belt buckles and the boots.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Uh I lived a lifestyle and so it worked worked out well. And uh, you know, to take over a sports property, right? Right. We operated in five different countries. Yes. And to watch how that evolved in 2013, Forbes voted us the fastest growing sport in America. And what we did to really, you know, kind of changed that business. I was fortunate we sold the business for the private equity group after about six years. We sold it to uh WME, which now they own the UFC and and uh WWE. And so uh did a deal with R Emanuel as we sold the professional bull riders there, but it was a great experience. And after that, I stayed on as a chairman, but I got a call from a really you know good friend that I'd known for probably 25 years at that point in time, Paul Mahan, oh yeah, about looking at outdoor cap. And so came as a CEO to run outdoor cap, was there for about six years, recruited away to go do some different things with an executive chairman for an in-home diagnostics company, which you know that all fits real well with uh retail as well, John. And uh, you know, really thinking about, you know, that as an executive chairman, how do you, you know, really kind of work through a venture capital group and really make things happen. And then most recently was working on another turnaround uh at uh uh Big Rock Sports.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Sometimes they work, John, sometimes they don't, but uh great, great experience throughout my career. And currently, so I'm a partner at the partnering group as a consulting form firm. Uh partnering group's been around for about 30 years. Probably 85% of the retailers we've done work for in the past. Oh, really? Okay, uh, probably 60% of most of CPG companies we've done work for. That's a wide breadth of things that we get involved in from you know, consulting of how to do business better. Category management was kind of the key thing they started with, but it's expanded into supply chain and strategy. Right. Ways that you can train and develop people today. So I also did a little work for an agriculture fund that's out of Chicago helping small, uh, small to mid-tier type businesses that are needing capital to you know expand in the agriculture world. Okay. So uh it's really fun to go and help these businesses. Most of them are founder-owned mom and pop type businesses that are needing that capital that's kind of taken to that next level. And so it's it's fun to be involved in the agriculture business still, but also how do you, you know, apply that from a business standpoint? So that's that's a little bit about what I'm doing, John. Like I said, one of these days I'll find something I can do really well.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

And in your spare time, you run a ranch, right?

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yes. Yes. You know, we've got a ranch just outside of northwest Arkansas here in Oklahoma. Uh John, I bought it back in 2000. I think so. We've lived a lot of different places as we've, you know, just talked through. But that ranch has always been a home spot for us. And so we have a commercial Angus cattle herd that we have, and then we raise and train cutting horses, right? Uh, which, you know, we were we talked about mentors, and Dean Sanders was one of mine. And Dean was also into cutting horses, and he put me on my first cutting horse.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Um, and if you like horses, John, if you like to ride, once you've ridden a good cutting horse, you're ruined for the rest of your life. And so I've been chasing that feeling that I got the first time since then. And we show we've raced, you know, several world champion horses, got a great trainer that works out of our facility. And uh, I have a real passion for the ranching, as you mentioned, and have a real passion for great horses.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

So it's been fun. I I follow you on Facebook and I've I've seen several shots of you on a horse. Uh and it's muscle every time I see that.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

I think I would say this, John, I can still steal a ride every now and then. My trainer trains a really good horse, and I can get on and don't mess them up too much when I didn't get a chance to show.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's great. Like I like I mentioned, people, very diverse career. Um, I wanted to talk about the early years at Walmart because uh, Jim, when I first met you, you were running store 576, Tulsa, Oklahoma. Uh, and for people that don't know, Walmart started in smaller towns and uh and grew tremendously in smaller towns, even though it when they opened in 1962, very everybody was skeptical. You can't you can't run a discount store in a small town, but Walmart proved that over time. Tulsa 576 was one of the first entries into a metro market. So things got a little bit different there. Maybe you could have some stories to share about how that was different.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Well, gentlemen, you you think back just what you said, we'd had such success in those smaller markets and still today continue to have a lot of success in the smaller markets, um, and bringing you know pricing and merchandise assortments that they hadn't seen. In the metro markets, it really was the first time we were getting into true competition. Right, right. You know, you think back to Kmart was very strong at that point in time. I mean, 576, you know, even the store you were at 894, right? There was a big battle in Tulsa at that point in time.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

It was a huge battle, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

And so competition, you know, we were having to earn market share. I took over 576, and at that point in time it was 103,000 square foot store.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Well, there were only 20, 103,000 square foot stores, and the most of those were war takeovers that that we had done, uh, you know, as we took on those buildings. And so, you know, to go into that market, I was running 144 in the Fayetteville, Arkansas, to go into Tulsa into a much stronger competitive market, different, you know, level of associate, but some great people there. And to watch that turnaround and what happened during that time, uh, it was fun. And so, you know, as as you think back to those time frames of interactions that we had with different people and what that meant, but to watch that store 576 go through a turnaround, those people and how they did it, it was fun.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

I re I remember those days very well. I was like you mentioned, I was at 894 as an assistant manager working for Maxi Carpenter who's uh went on to be a very uh uh legendary uh personnel manager for Walmart. That's right. Uh unfortunately passed away a few years ago, but a great guy. Uh I remember the competition. And back in those days, Jim, uh, as an assistant manager, we would have to go and check pricing. And and as I mentioned, uh this was our uh 576 was the first entry into a metro market, and Kmart was not gonna they they really, really wanted to take us head on. And so um being working with Sam Walton, it he threw the gauntlet down and said, We're not gonna get beat. And I remember prices going to um to well below cost levels. I remember candy bars for five cents, and and you know, people were stocking up all. Um, so eventually that you know everything smoothed out and things got back to normal. But you were very instrumental in and Walmart figuring out how to run a store in metro area.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Well, you know, and you think about the application and back to this competitive nature, uh, you know, lots of different opportunities throughout my career as an assistant. You know, I was in Joplin store 59, and we had um um uh a new hardware competition that came into that market. Yeah. Well, to your point, you know, yeah, uh, Mr. Walden, we were gonna make sure that we continued to keep our market share in hardware. Al Johnson, at that point in time, great merchant, he came up and spent a half a day with me walking counters and going through it felt like item per item. But it was a good visit, John. You know, a lot of times you hear, you know, somebody gonna spend a half a day with you, but that interaction I had with Al Johnson as an assistant manager and his level of item merchandising.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

He was a brilliant item merchandise.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

It taught us so much. But again, you know, you think about back to Tulsa, big competition with King Hart. We had the the hardware store that came into Joplin. As a district manager, I uh had a uh district in Northwest Ohio. Okay. Well, Myers was there. Yeah, you know, at that point in time, yeah. We didn't have food.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

And so I was fortunate. Mr. Walton flew up there to come and see my stores, and it was good good visits again. But, you know, he continued to look at how we can compete without grocery. Right. And so that drive of how we can gain markets here, you know, Mr. Walton always believed in, and at the at the root of all that is how can we help the customer? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

And that's the thing he really believed in. He that's that's where his focus was for sure. But you had an interesting story about his trip to Ohio.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yes, yeah. I I was uh you again, we we all know, you know, you hear people have a perspective from the outside world. We knew that, you know, Mr. Walton was Mr. Walton. I mean, you know, he he believed he was frugal and and made sure we all knew that. So I was a new district manager in in Ohio, and uh we were doing an inventory in Sandusky, Ohio, and Mr. Walton actually flew in. Uh, he was still at a health level, he could he was flying himself, flew in and he came to the Sandusky store. Uh, he had a chance to visit with the people, which he always did, right? Took the time to talk to the sharp manager. And John, we had made a in his mind an error at that point in time. We tried to combine department managers and automotive and sporting goods. Okay. And so he's talking to the associates, and one of the associates brought that up. And Mr. Walton, in true Mr. Walton fashion, he looks at me and he says, Jim Hayworth, why'd you let us make that mistake? And I, you know, I'm thinking that it wasn't my decision. But I again, I was like, Mr. Walton, we were wrong, and you know, we should have we should have looked at that a little tested a little different. So anyway, you know, he he went back, and that was one of the things that we changed. Guess what? We got another department manager, and then we put another one back into automotive and and sporting goods. Yeah, but up there that time of year, John, this is where the lesson comes in. Mr. Walton uh was gonna spend the night. We had, you know, uh, so along Lake Erie in the summertime, you couldn't find rooms even back then for less than 200, 250 bucks a night. And so, you know, Mr. Walton, he's like, I've got a, you know, I need Jim, I need to find a room here, you know, around Sandusky. And I I said, uh, Mr. Walton, you know, they're I've got to deal with the holiday inn across the road in the summer. I said, in the winter we pay 25 bucks a night, but in the in the summer it goes up to 75. And and John, you would have thought I shot him when I said that we were gonna pay 75 bucks a night for a hotel room. He's like, Oh, Jim Hayward, I cannot, I cannot afford $75 for a hotel room. I'm thinking, yes, sir. I know you're I understand, but that's all we're gonna find. So again, he he had us find him a hotel room uh for 29 bucks a night. I wouldn't put him on the airplane. He flew down there and then flew back to my stores the next day. So I know he spent probably more than that in fuel, but it was the point that he was making to me that you know, we can't afford to spend that kind of money. But I could tell you all kinds of stories that luckily I had a lot of interaction with Mr. Walton at different different levels in my career. And um always, you know, he felt like John, and you've been there.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

When he asked you a question, it wasn't like he just was listening to the answer. It was like he was almost looking at your soul to see what you were made of when you gave that answer. And I'm sure you had a lot of the same experiences.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I've had I had a few experiences with that too. And uh, you know, at the time I remember being very nervous about it. You know, this was Sam Walton, but uh looking back on it, I think, you know, what a what a great privilege that was to be able to learn from somebody who knew so much and was so influential, not only to Walmart, but to the entire uh retail industry and probably the entire business industry.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Well, you think about global leaders and people that have had an impact on the world, and you think about what if you look back at that and think about what Mr. Walton did for retail, yes, people, yes, but you think about the economy, yeah, what Walmart did to change, you know, the way business was done in the United States. Um, it's an amazing story when you go back and and look at it. And we were fortunate to have a leader like that that had that charisma and enough uh um challenge, you know, with the teens. And you know, we all know we we see a lot of those videos and things where he was very, you know, charismatic and rotten, but at the end of the day, he was still a businessman.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

A very good businessman. And you and I both uh I remember the the years uh during the Saturday morning meeting. I and I I came to the office in 1987, so I had five years of Saturday morning meetings where Sam led the Saturday morning meeting.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

You think about the dynamic, and and I always looked at it. That Saturday morning meeting was like uh Mr. Sam's time to really, you know, he he would challenge us, but he also motivated us. And a lot of the things that he did, you could see that emulated on leaders even after he was gone. But you know, he had a way of asking questions, uh, and in most cases knew the answer. Right, right. But uh, you know, I I could still remember a Saturday morning meeting, and it was Bill Fields. Uh Mr. Walton had been out in the in the stores and he said, you know, Bill, I see a lot of apparel out, you know, in the stores, and you know, they're heavy. And you remember this from you know being a menswork. Right. And I the stores they're they're having a hard time getting it out of the back rooms, blah, blah, blah. And so uh, you know, so Bill, Bill starts down the line and he's you know, he says, Harriet Bailey, and you know, he goes through the whole group of well, now our numbers are telling us that it's gonna be this, or we're gonna be fine on this. And they're going through, and everybody's given the numbers of where they're gonna be on apparel. And so they got through all that, and Bill, Bill, at the end of it, he says, you know, Mr. Wall, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna be fine, you know, from an apparel standpoint. I still remember, you know, said he he got back to the mic and he said, you know, Bill, sometimes when we say it so, doesn't make it so. And we all knew that he was going to continue to follow up to see where that was. And so again, you think about those life lessons that we had a chance to watch throughout our careers.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Yeah, it was it was amazing. So you um talking about the earlier years, but now you moved uh through Walmart ranks and eventually became the chief operating officer for Walmart stores. Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

So you know, I was uh lucky. I I was a kid out of college, yeah, you know, started for Walmart. Um we had 620 stores when I started. Yeah. And three Sam's clubs. And you know, you think back at that, you know, I you know, I really wasn't sure about Walmart, I didn't know that much about Walmart. I I'd had some experience with uh my dad was a coach in Versailles, Missouri, and Bud Walton lived and Audi Walton lived in Versailles. Okay, and so we had kind of known Cold Warshburn actually played ball for my dad at Versailles. So there's some old names for you. But so again, we had known Walmart, but you know, coming out of college, it was a great, I thought it was a great w a place to start. And so to start as a a college graduate and then work my way up through the business as an assistant store district, you know, all the way through the company, yeah. I was fortunate to do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah. That reminds me of uh this particular week. I mean, we're this won't be aired uh during this week, but it's Associates Week here in Northwest Arkansas, and uh reminded me of back in 1984, I'd been with the company for three years and I was a department manager in Stillwater. And as they do today, they elected they elect one person from every operating unit in Walmart to attend the shareholders meeting. And I was fortunate enough to be elected by my store to represent uh them at the shareholders' meeting. So in those days, I mean, these days, uh it's a weeklong celebration that the associates in there all dressed in Walmart apparel and and badges and beads and hats and drums and maracas, and I mean it you can hear them. From where I live, you can hear them. And it's it's a wonderful cultural celebration. And and but 42 years ago, I came as a one-day deal then, and uh we went to the shareholders' meeting in Bentonville High School. At the time it was Bentonville High School, now it's Lincoln Junior High. Um and then right after that we went to Sam and Helen's house, which is nearby the high school, for all the associates gathered there for an outdoor uh kind of a picnic on the lawn in front of his house, catered by Kentucky fried chicken, you know, because we were we still were like you know, but you got no piece of chicken you'd have to split it.

unknown 21:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

It was a little it was a little box with a couple of pieces of chicken and a biscuit. But that was, you know, what an experience. That wasn't an and I got to talk to Sam, I got to talk to Helen, Jack Shoemaker was there, all the all the people, and then all the analysts were there too. Uh but what an experience. And I remember coming, and part of my job then was to come back and and make a presentation to the rest of the store because. The excitement that was created there, they wanted it to spread back to the store. So I took a lot of pictures, even though that was 42 years ago, they did have a cell phone with the pictures on it. I checked out a uh 35 millimeter from the store. Oh wow. The store manager was kind enough to let me borrow it to take pictures. Um, and so those are treasures to me now, but I share those sometimes on LinkedIn too. But I remember making the decision at that time, this is a company that I want to I want to work for. This is I want a career with this company. Um I remember in a merchandise meeting during that shareholders meeting, back in the old, old auditorium, not the one they're getting ready to tear down, but the one previous to that uh had wood paneling on the walls and everything. Right. Bill Fields was up there, Den Sanders was up there, Al Johnson, who you mentioned, all these executive level people were there and presenting to all the store associates a fashion show, and then the buyers would get up and hold up merchandise and everything. I made a decision there that boy, I'd sure like to be a buyer. That sounds like an exciting thing to do. Uh, and so that made the decision to try to pursue that course too.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Well, you know, John, it's it's it's interesting to look back. One of one of the things that, you know, people had titles, you know, throughout the company. And, you know, whether it was vice president titles or, you know, COO titles or whatever, whatever those titles were. But the best title was being a merchant. Right. And you think back to, you know, whether you worked in merchandising or you worked in the stores, right? If you were a merchant, that carried a lot of weight with people because at the end of the day, we all like to sell merchandise. And, you know, to me, that was one of the things that always set us apart from anyone else. We could talk about operational excellence, we can go through a lot of things, but we like to sell merchandise to customers. And that, you know, you watching somebody presenting items and knowing how that applied back to your store and your customers really set a career path for you, right? Just like it has a lot of people throughout this business.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah, and I remember uh there was never a Walmart meeting, even if it was a financial meeting where there wasn't merchandise. We were gonna talk about merchandise. And uh, you know, Sam, the VPI program, and I've talked on a previous podcast. I used to be the one that ran the VPI program when I first got into marketing, which means which meant two things. I got exposure with the buyers because they uh, you know, they like to have their items as a VPI program when we passed it out on Saturday morning, but it also got a lot of attention from Sam Walton because he loved the VPI program. So I got some special attention from him while I was running that program too. So that was great. Um but always merchandise.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Well, John, I can remember my very first as an assistant manager going to Little Rock as my first you know, year beginning. And I think the meeting, I'm gonna, you know, say it's was supposed to start at 7:30.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Well, everybody talked about you don't, you know, you're not showing up at 7:30. You gotta, you know, it's Walmart time, you've got to get there early. Well, I think my wife and I went down. We still took spouses. My wife and I went down, and you know, at like seven o'clock, Mr. Walton's already on the stage, and what's he talking about? He's talking about items. Yeah, and he's asking people like, what's selling? What are you what are you doing? Where are you from? And so it was always to your point. I don't care what we were doing, we talked about merchandise and what what was selling or what wasn't selling, yeah. What can we do? Did anybody have a great idea to make something selling?

SPEAKER_00 25:47

Yeah, yeah. And I I remember the shareholders' meeting in 1987 when I was in sales promotion, which would it's now marketing. Yes. But marketing always uh ran these meetings or prepared for these meetings. And one of the functions I had was making sure that we had merchandise set up. And back in 1987, it was at Barn Hill Arena in Fayetteville. And Joe Chappelle, who was my uh boss at the time, said, John, you need to be there early. I said, Okay, I'll I'll get there at 6 30 or so and and be ready. He goes, Well, Sam's gonna get there early, so you need to be there when he's there because he's gonna want to walk around the floor and talk about merchandise. And sure enough, uh I so that's why I got there at 4 30. About 5 o'clock in the morning, here comes Mr. Walter, the yellow legal pad, and he wanted to look at the merchandise. And he, you know, I want to take this up to stage with me, this up to the stage, and this up to the stage. And this, I think the shareholders' meeting started at like 10 o'clock in the morning, but like you said, it's at 6 30 or whatever, people started filing in. He's up there talking about merchandise, and he loved to do that. Absolutely. That was one of his favorite things to do is start a conversation about and make merchandising exciting. And that was that's one of the catalysts that drove the Walmart company.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

I I think that was probably one of the uh not probably, was one of the key things that set us apart from other retailers at that point in time.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Um I did a podcast a couple of months ago with a gentleman that you know very well, Russ Robertson. Russ wrote uh a book about Sam's Club.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

And uh so I brought him on and we talked about the early development of Sam's Club. You actually went from Walmart to Sam's Club as the chief operating officer for Sam's Club. How did you see the difference uh between Walmart and Sam's Club?

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Well, you know, it it's it's interesting, uh John, that that that wholesale club, warehouse club merchandising and focus was in some cases not opposite, but definitely different than what we we had grown up with at Walmart. Uh, and you know, you and I were talking about this at different times. I was smart enough not to show up as I had all the answers. Right. Yeah. You you know, let's let's learn about this business. Yeah, you know, Saul Price and what he started, you know, and when you look at that whole wholesale club business and how Mr. Walton saw it, you know, wanted to apply, and you look it back at the merchants and people that started Sam's Club, yeah. To me, that is the truest format of item merchandising you're ever going to find.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

It's not assortment-based, it's item driven, and it's pallets of merchandise. And so getting in and understanding, you know, how important that was and the tools that were different, all the things that we went through, but probably the most fun if you like to sell merchandise you're ever going to find in your life, John. And we had a great group of people. We went through several different leaders at that point in time, uh, you know, had different concepts, and you know, you would watch that pendulum swing from, you know, an advantage member to a business member. And, you know, so but you know, you had two sets of members. Business members were mostly small, you know, mom and pop type operations. We had some SIC focuses that you would focus on that allowed you to go after that business. Yeah. And then the advantage shopper that was, you know, more the mom that was shopping for a larger family. And, you know, hopefully we had some treasure hunt items that were in there that they would want to see. But you talk about a true sense of item merchandise, really low labor cost, and a membership fee that really, you know, provided the profitability for that business. Most fun if you like to sell merchandise you're ever going to have in your life.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I still love going to Sam's Club today, and and I actually uh I've sold the Sam's Club over the years, and uh it is different because I do have categories that are sell to Walmart where it is, you know, it's an assortment of product. Sam's it's an item, and you want you want to, but but the item that they buy is big big volume for one item, so I like that part of it. So that uh your Walmart career, as I mentioned, very, very uh distinguished. I was gonna ask you though, um, in your Walmart career, maybe who some of your mentors were and why.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

You know, John, as as you were kind of sending me some of these questions, I had to think about this a little bit and you know, go go through and you know, definitely I'll I'll go through some of the the key people leadership-wise that were mentors to me over my career. But I also started thinking about those hourly associations that you know, here's a kid coming out of college and I'm showing up at Neosho, Missouri. And, you know, I'm supposed to be the assistant manager over, you know, hardware and paint and uh, you know, toys and you know, uh lawn and garden. And, you know, I I don't know hardly anything at that point in time. And I've, you know, first I show up, I walk around the corner, and you know, you're supposed to have a legal pad with you. Okay, you know, and so I walk around the corner, I've got this legal pad, and I turn the corner in a paint aisle, and here's this woman. I bet she weighed 75 pounds. I'm I'm exaggerating a little bit, but she wasn't much over, you know, maybe a hundred pounds. Right. She is slinging gallons of paint, loading this counter up. And I'm standing here with this legal pad, and she's sweating and she's throwing stuff, and yeah, and I her name was Joe Cherry. And Joe looks around at me and she says, you know, I'm staying on earth at least. She said, Well, what are you gonna do with that legal pen? I said, I'm not sure. And she said, Well, then get in here and help me. And I said, Yes, ma'am. I said I set the legal pen down and started helping her sling paint paint. But you know, think about people, John, throughout your career and how the I why? I don't know why, but a lot of those hourly associates, when I was, you know, new at the company, took an interest in me. I could think about Marguerite Barack, was the ladies' wear department manager at store 59 job. Yeah, Marguerite was tough. Yeah, but for whatever reason, she liked me and she taught me the apparel business. And if you think back in those days, a lot of assistant managers didn't have much, you know. You go to your menswear experience, which they didn't have a lot of experience in the soft lines, but Marguerite, you know, took an interest.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Uh Charlotte Cheryl, who was, you know, matter of fact, Charlotte ended up taking all the, but she took an interest in me to teach me the business. And so having those kind of hourly associates, Sean, that that, you know, as we think about mentors, we always, you know, think about leadership. Sure. But those hourly associates, uh, whether we were smart enough to listen to them or they were tough enough to make us listen to them, whatever that happened, we knew that that was an important part of the success we were going to have with the company. And fortunately, I I listened a lot. But, you know, I was fortunate throughout my career, had a lot of you know, great uh people that you know were mentors to me throughout my career, store manager, assistant manager. You know, I think about internet for whatever reason Dean Sanders took an interest in me early in my career, even when I was an assistant manager. Yeah, Dean gave me lots of opportunities to take on additional responsibility in the business and believed in me. Right. I did a fast track program. Again, Dean developed it, but as I worked through merchandising, John, you know, I was working in different merchandise areas for a part portion of my career. Yes, really close with Bill Fields.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Bill was probably in, you know, I think you and I talked about this. I even had a chance to have Bill coming to her stores with Van Chine. Bill was such a great merchant, such a great one of the best, one of the absolutely unbelievable. And, you know, even things he told me worked out real well. You know, I think about you know Tom Cochman and Tom's, you know, toughness, but also Tom was fair, firm, and consistent.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

As long as you didn't try to BS. And and you know, Tom and I had several tough conversations, but Tom was always he'd listen. And, you know, he might not still agree with you, but you think about you know, Al Johnson I mentioned earlier. I had I, you know, I had chances to interact with Al. Even after Walmart, he was consulting for the CP group as I took on that business in China. Al was still a great mentor to me, is understanding a different culture and how to run a business. And so I could go through tons of different people, but whether it was the hourly associates and us being smart enough to listen or them smart tough enough to tell us, or just those other leaders that you've had throughout your career, it's you know, it's fun to look back. And you know, I think we both would say this. I hope I've been able to give maybe halfback to people that you know we've tried to help develop throughout our careers because you hope that people look at you that you know you were someone that helped them throughout their the business. And most of it's just good guidance to you know try to help people, you know, understand, or you know, maybe it's uh you know a thought process or you know how to look at different circumstances and how you do that. But aren't we fortunate to have had some great mentorship?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

We we are and you and I share Bill Fields as a mentor. He was the executive VP of merchandising for several years when I was a buyer. And um Bill, you know, Bill Bill wouldn't come out and just say, Here's what you need to do, this, this, and this. He would ask a question and maybe walk away or or whatever, but he had a great way of communicating and he gave me some great advice that I used throughout my buying career, and I've used since I've been on the other side too, that that uh really helped me out. Um and I mentioned Maxi Carpenter. Yeah, he was a mentor. You know, he was one of the I worked with him when he was a store manager many, many years ago, but he kept up with my career and and uh always was ready to give advice or always ready to point out, you know, something that I could prove on, and I appreciated that. Uh and then I had on my show two weeks ago Mel Redman.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Oh, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

I had a great experience when we took over the Woolco stores. You mentioned Woolco. They all the stores in Canada were ex-Woolco stores, and they had them. That's right. They were all 103,000 square feet, and they all had cavernous stock rooms. But that my point was that Mel did a tremendous amount for my career, and not by by calling and getting me jobs, but by giving me the right kind of uh uh example, and I'm gonna followed his example. Not you know, and you you talk about Tom Coughlin, great, great leader, and I didn't ever work directly for Tom, but um I worked around him enough and knew enough people to to know how effective he was. And um one thing I remember about Tom that um that's kind of funny, he had a policy when he was president of Walmart that as a Walmart buyer, you never let a supplier wait. Don't ever stand up a supplier, you're representing Walmart, you're not representing yourself. And so he had that policy. And one day, I had an appointment at one, I was at lunch and I was trying to get back, and I missed it by like five minutes, uh, or I was five minutes late. And during that time, Tom had was walking down the uh the aisle, you know, we had all the vendor rooms were, and there somebody was city in there, and they said, Hey, who are you here to see? She said, I'm I'm here to see John Reeves. He goes, What time was your meeting? He said, One o'clock. So anyway, later that afternoon I get a call from Tom Coughlin's office to come see him, and I knew what it was for. Oh man. I was terrified. Yeah, Tom was a tough guy. Oh, yeah. And uh uh he just laughed and said, I just, you know, I want you to know that you have the you don't have the right to do that. Uh, if you're representing Walmart, you don't have that right. So I thought that was great advice, and uh I thought he was a great leader.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Well, and you know, now John, you know, as we were with the company, and now being outside, you know, I've I've run on, you know, been the CEO for a couple business uh calls on Walmart, and you realize how important that was, that expectation, because inside the company we felt like, well, you know, hey, this all happens pretty regular. Yeah, that's not always the case.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

And again, that's the thing that as you think about culture, that expectation, it was important. And you know, we wanted to support the vendors, the suppliers to this business. Matter of fact, a lot of cases they had more insights about customers than we ever thought about having. Right. We believe we we knew a lot about the customer, but they could bring us lots of great information. And and so that expectation, you know, now being on the outside, how important that still is to make sure you're, you know, being on time is that important? Sure, it's on important. So that lesson that he was, you know, making sure you knew he he knew. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Well was you just trying to do that. I wanted to make sure everybody knew that there were, you know, there would be consequences for it. And um, and I was never ever late for an appointment after that, I can promise you. I didn't because the the first time it was okay to go to his office. Yeah, you know, because he was going to be friendly about it. The second time was not gonna be the No. One of the things uh about your career that I really find fascinating is your assignment in China as uh Since I left Walmart. I've been to China probably 75 or more times, Jim. Spend a lot of time there. And um so just very curious about the assignment that you had there. You actually lived in Shanghai.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

I did. I did.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Somebody from a small town in Missouri lives in lives in Shanghai, China.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

You know, it was uh quite the experience, uh, you know, John, to go do that. And uh the business that I ran was run, was owned by the CP Group. You know, there's probably 350 different companies underneath that conglomerate. A lot of the Asian businesses are really, you know, family-owned conglomerates, some public, some private. And so the CP Group uh would is a is a plethora of different businesses there, but they're mostly known for agriculture, feed seed, okay, aquaculture, number one in the world, you know, from a shrimp, that you know, those kind of things. But they also had retail stores. They have even today, they've got 15,000 711 stores in Thailand. Wow, they had you know retail stores in China and and they were hypermarket stores. Yeah, it's interesting that the first uh real partnership that Walmart had for China was with the CP Group when they opened stores in Shenzhen. Well, the chairman of CP decided they would go do their own, and Walmart did did their own. And so uh CP Group went to Shanghai and then started expanding, you know, stores there. That experience, um, you know, John, a lot of the things that we learned in retail and the culture that we tried to build, you know, I tried to apply that as well uh as I you know worked throughout Asia, but you know, China specifically, and it it's it was different, you know, from a standpoint of what people were used to and how you could really get that, you know, good insight and you know, really get them to be open and tell you what they were thinking.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

So it's you know, to me, any good business, you've got to understand your customer. Right. And so we did, you know, focus groups uh to understand, and you know, China's 99% the size of the US, but think about you know, a billion plus more people. Right. If you took the Mississippi River and put a billion more people in the in the United States, that's kind of how China would look. And so understand the different regions within China. Right. And we did focus groups to go out and try to gain more uh insights about customers. We did a lot of things around fresh food, we did things around imports, we created baby centers and stores, which that one child policy, I mean, it was focused at, you know, how do you really, you know, all that disposable income was going to one child.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

It was really important to those families. And so we turned that business around in about uh uh uh two years. And so it was it was fun to watch that. But but here's the thing I would say, John, that people are people wherever you go throughout the world. And I've been fortunate to travel a lot around the globe and run different businesses that had, you know, even the professional bull riders, we'll probably get to here, you know, we had you know different businesses in different parts of the world, but to watch people and how people are people, and I I you know I I think talked about this, but I'm walking Health and Beauty AIDS at one of our stores in China, uh and the department manager. I mean, similar to what we were talking about, she knew items she was going through. This was selling, seasonally right, things that she was going through. And it was, it was, and I'm I'm going through a translator. My Mandarin, I can understand pretty well, but uh how I spoke wasn't it wasn't that good. My wife got to where she was really good. So we're going through this translator and I finally look back and I'm thinking, you know, she should have a career with us and we should develop her to do more in this company. And I had them translate back to her like, what does she want to do? How does she want to grow with the business? Does she want to be an assistant? Does she want to run a store someday? And so, John, as they were communicating, I'm watching her, she starts to cry.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

And I'm thinking are they misinterpreted? What is it? No.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

I thought, did what you know, how could that be misinterpreted? What what did I do? You know. So she she's got tears coming down her face. And I'm like, you know, I'm going to the translator. I'm like, what you know, what happened? Or what he's and they said, no, Jim, it's okay. She's she's just never had anyone ask her what she wanted to do with her future and with her career. And John, just like we were talking about, those hourly associates, it took so much to help us develop, you know, people are people, and people want to be treated right, they want to grow. And you know, the more we can continue to do that, I think that's the success of businesses. And you got to be open to listen and hear things, but also how do we help people, you know, grow in their own careers?

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Right. That's that's culture. I mean, that that's the the heart of culture is treating people the way they should be treated.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Well, and you know, it was fun to watch that Chinese consumer develop. You know, there's a lot of expats that lived in in China at that point in time. It was fun to watch that consumer developing, and you know, what what we did to really kind of anticipate that, but it was a fun experience.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

So thank you for that. That was that that was a great story. Um, and then you came back and worked for the professional bull riders. I remember when I saw that announcement, I was thinking, uh, what a perfect fit for Jim Hayworth. He's got all this knowledge about numbers and culture, and and now he gets to go run a company that uh he probably already knew quite a bit about.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Well, you know, actually Eddie Lambert recruited me to come back to run to help. I was the president of retail for Sears and Kmart and a transformation officer. Well, again, I think I I said earlier, I realized Eddie's version of retail and I were different. And hey, you know, he was, you know, the one providing the capital, and he needed to go the direction he needed to go. And so as we parted ways, I got a call from a private equity group that uh had bought the professional bull riders. And he and here's an association of 20 riders that broke away from the PRCA because they realized that the bull riding was such an important part and they wanted to have everybody had a fair shot with a good bull that they could really have a chance to ride well and then you know get a chance to you know score well and and make money that way. So it started with an original 20 bull riders that wrote a thousand dollar check, John, to start the PBR. Now, you should hear the stories. Most of these guys didn't have a thousand dollars. A lot of them were counting on their winnings from that weekend that would allow them to uh you know pay, you know, that check wouldn't bounce.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Right. Not a not an easy life, not an easy life.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

And so those 20 bull riders, when the private equity group came in and bought them, they all walked away with multi-million dollars, you know, over I'll just say a range here, over four million dollars from that thousand dollar investment. That's awesome. And so to think about a true American, you know, story, yeah, and then you know, a private equity group comes in and buys them, you know. I got involved uh as they were making some transitions with that PE group, but to to that the business operated in five different countries, uh, you know, the US, Brazil was a big part of what we did, and then you know, Australia, Mexico, and then Canada. Yeah, but to watch that development, and you know, one David Neal, who had done like 29 different Olympics, was our executive producer for our television. He had a live sports, you know, going on with a tele television show as well that was happening at the same time. And so to coordinate that, well, the thing that David came back and said, We've got to create stars, you know, you have to create stars in this well back in the day, tough heedman and you know, uh Ty Murray and a lot of these guys, they were stars. Yeah, well, the bull power started getting so much better um and tougher. Yeah, your writers were getting injured quite a bit. And so what we did, John, is we created this man versus beast type concept. Yeah, and the bulls took us places that writers could never take us. If you get a chance, look it up. There's a bull called Bushwhackers, yeah. And Bushwhackers was in like the USA Today, the Wall Street Journal, uh ESPN, the bat the magazine where they would do the body issue, and they'd have the athletes with no, you know, they really didn't show them new, but they didn't have the nose on.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

Uh Bushwhackers was the first animal athlete that had been uh put into that magazine. And the in the headline across that he got two pages, the baddest body in sports.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

But how could you contest that?

SPEAKER_02 49:30

But Bushwhacker took us places. You could take, we've got a picture where Bushwhacker was in the lobby of the MGM facing the lion. Yeah. We had Bushwhackers out by the pool. Put Bushwhackers in an elevator. You could take him different places, but when he was in the shoot, he was all business. Yeah. And really, we had great stars, we had great riders, but the bull athletes also took us places that they had. So being at the PBR to watch that develop, you know, 2013 four was the fastest growing sport in America. And then to be able to, you know, as we did that transition from uh uh private equity to WME, yeah, uh it was a fun time and really great to see the payoff then those bull riders that stuck with it. And then the even the second payoff they got was pretty good. So all of them did pretty well as we went through that transaction. Fun time. I always thought we worked hard in retail. Well, go go put on events every weekend, and the travel that you go through, John. You know, you're traveling whether it's international or in the US. Uh you remember that old commercial with the Dunkin' Donuts guy, and you know, he's going out the door and he's meeting himself at the door.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

I felt that way sometimes. You probably have a lot of frequent flyer minds. Yeah, I did. So from there, you uh you did a stint with Outdoor Cap and and uh Paul Mahan, who is is, I guess, one of the owners of Outdoor Cap along with his brother Dick Mahan, longtime uh Walmart executive Dick Mahan. Paul was my first, uh one of the first guys that called on me when I was a menswear buyer back in the late 80s, and he was selling wall caps.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

So you you know, in it crazy. So actually, Dick's business is separate. Paul just goes the headwear part of it. But you know, you you think about this, John, and it isn't that a true American story. Yeah, that you could have a really great company that just focused at headwear right and to develop that, you know. To me, that's that's you know what America is all about. Yeah, Paul Paul was a great leader and and you know, great, you know, Walmart vendor, yeah, uh, but also promotional products. You know, Paul started uh really have firecracker stands and evolved into looking for ways that you know, at that point in time, firecrackers are only gonna you know sell at certain points of the year. He was looking for something to bridge that time frame. Yeah, so he started looking at promotional products and then realized that headwear had such a you know an opportunity there, so he got involved in the headwear business. But Paul's one of the finest people you'll ever meet. Yeah, you know, you mentioned Dick. Dick has a separate business, but those two guys, both of them, when you talk about item merchants and people that believe and entrepreneurs, yeah, those two are just unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

And homegrown too.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Right, you know, right here. And so I I always feel fortunate uh working with outdoor cap and working with Paul and the Mayhan family to watch, you know, yeah, even as Craig's coming up to you know to take more responsibility in that business. Yeah, got some great leaders and and really fun to see what's happened with outdoor cap.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah, that's great, Jim. You've had an amazing career. Still going. Yes, yes. Uh you've got a a ranch now and a growing family, beautiful family, a lot of grandkids. They all wear their boots and hats and everything. I love it. Uh how would you summarize all of your experience and how important culture is to every step along the way? And I know some in some areas there was a strong culture, and some maybe not so strong. Right. But but maybe summarize and uh of how important culture is.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

You know, John, it's interesting to have you know be involved with a company that has culture than to see businesses that you take over that that do not have the culture. You know, in some cases culture might be different, and so it's how you develop it or you know, different expectations. Here's here's the fun thing. Um, John, I'm gonna say this before I get too deep into what you said. So I've had a lot of titles throughout my career, but Papa is the best title ever. You know, I've got eight grandkids now. And and you know, it's it's one of those things that uh, you know, as we were growing up and raising our kids, and I've got three kids, and you know, now to see the eight grandbabies, you know, as we were growing up, you know, we were busy, we were working in our careers. So it's fun for me to watch and be engaged with, you know, our grandkids as they're growing up. And we're fortunate they like the ranch, they like the outdoors, and their their uh grandmother, my wife, Kathy, does such a great job of keeping them busy when they're there. And then so to me, there's you know, that that culture, it's also you know, when you think about ranching and you know that what people have grown through or don't know or do know, and we're fortunate to see those grandkids be involved in the ranch. And so but so back to your point on on culture. Um, you know, to to me there's there's several things that you know good businesses do, you know. First of all, and you think back to this the culture at Walmart, and I'll think about it from a financial standpoint first. How many times did you hear you better know your numbers?

SPEAKER_00 54:51

It was ingrained. It was yes.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

So so to me, when you think about opinions or you think about things that are what we believe, the financial performance is number one.

SPEAKER_03 55:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

And so when when you go through and you look at that, you need to know your numbers, and that's always factual based. It's not an opinion, that's what the performance is when you look at that. Now, the other piece of this when I think about culture is that focus at the customer. I don't care what business it is, you know. John, we we had a real keen focus at the customer, you know, at Walmart. Right. I don't care if you're in the US, you're in China, uh, you you've got fans at a bull riding organization. Understanding and making sure that you're listening and hearing what your customers are telling you are so important. There's a lot of businesses that don't do that, and you watch the success or those that aren't successful, most of them miss on those two key facts, whether it's to focus at the right customer. And I don't care what business, if you're a distributor, you still have customers.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

If you're uh, you know, working on you know healthcare, you still have patience. If you're working on bull robbing, you have a fan base. So making sure that you understand the customer and what they expect and how that applies then from a financial performance standpoint, those two things are critical. And, you know, we learned that early through our careers at uh Walmart. And I don't think it's any different today. I you know, I look at what Doug has done and the environment he's said, Doug McMillan, and you know, really the what's happened with Walmart. And you see the same thing with John.

SPEAKER_03 56:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

I know John Ferner's only new in that, but I promise you, John gets both of those, and doing it very well when you think about how you lead people and walk them, you know, keep them progressing, focused at the customer, and really making sure along with that they've got to get a financial performance as they do that. That business will continue to do well.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Yep. Great. Jim Aver. Thank you so much for joining me. Great conversation. Love to have you back sometime. Uh we're we're looking at doing a legacy series. Uh, probably mentioned this a few times where we bring people in that were close to uh people that were were great leaders in Walmart in the past. We've mentioned Bill Fields, Tom Coglin, people like that. Maybe take a deeper dive into those individuals with people that actually worked with them. So hopefully you'll come back and join us.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Anytime, John. And again, I'm gonna say this. I think it's great you're doing this. Um, and you know, I think I don't know the whole audience, but I know there are people out here that are really wanting to do you know business in Bitonville or in this area. And you know, you think back to the history of Walmart, you know, wouldn't Mr. Sam be uh so ecstatic about seeing what's happened in some cases you may be a little bit like, oh, I can't believe we've gone this far. But you know, you look at what's happened here in Northwest Arkansas and how that's developed, and how many people and how many companies have been supported on what's happened right here in this small little area in the scheme of things. And so it is great to see what that culture has developed into and what it will continue to do. So I think it's great you guys are doing these series, and I'll come back anytime that you want me to come back.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

That's awesome. That's awesome. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Good to see you. Good to see you.