Episode 3 - Human Connection

In 2025, Julia returns to Lakecastle to investigate just what Jonathan Lindeman is doing in the town. Through interviews with an assortment of locals -- including a government official, a journalist, an archaeologist, and old childhood friends -- Julia discovers a community that is being profoundly affected by Lindeman's invisible presence.

Learn more about what's happening in Lakecastle at www.lakecastlepodcast.com.

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Transcript

Unknown 0:00

The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals providing them. Some names and identifying details have been changed.

Julia Villanueva 0:10

This is Jonathan Lindeman being interviewed on the Live Science podcast in 2024.

Podcast Host 0:16

Are you afraid of dying? Do you think about death?

Jonathan Lindeman 0:20

I mean I'm aware it exists. Like I I do a lot of extreme sports. I train hard, so if I'm snowboarding down a mountain, I make sure I have the right gear. I keep my head. I I don't plan on dying anytime soon. I have a lot of stuff I want to build.

Podcast Host 0:39

Datum is leaning hard into AI. You obviously believe AI is the future. Do you believe AI will lead us to a never-ending future, to immortality?

Jonathan Lindeman 0:51

That's what's exciting about AI. Is that it opens up possibilities. I believe the possibilities for AI are near infinite.

Podcast Host 1:00

In a world of near-infinite possibility, what do you think the meaning of life is? What's it all about?

Jonathan Lindeman 1:07

I think it's about human connection. That's what I've spent my whole life trying to do. Connect people. At the end of the day, I go home from work and I'm with my family, friends, my loved ones. That's what it's all about, right? Human connection.

Julia Villanueva 1:32

From Sans rival, I'm Julia Villanueva, and this is Lakecastle. On this episode, a closer look at the man behind Blue Orchard Farm, Jonathan Lindeman. Episode 3. Human Connection.

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Julia Villanueva 2:28

In the summer of 2025, I went to Lakecastle in the hope of finding answers to the questions that were filling my head. I needed first-hand perspective on Lindeman and what he was doing on the farm. And I wanted to know, why would one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world take over a little town like Lakecastle?

Abe Carter 2:42

Water is the new oil. My name is Abe Carter, and I sit on the Lakecastle County Council.

Julia Villanueva 2:49

I met Abe in his office. He comes from a prominent Lakecastle family. He pointed out picture frames on his walls showing previous generations of Carters serving in city and county government and working on the ore docks. Abe is a gregarious personality, as you can hear. He comes across as tirelessly cheerful. I'd explained to Abe that I wanted to interview him about Blue Orchard Farm, but he kept steering our conversation towards the notion of Lakecastle as a quote climate haven.

Abe Carter 3:37

We uh we don't get uh hurricanes or droughts. You uh you live in LA, right?

Julia Villanueva 3:43

Mm-hmm.

Abe Carter 3:43

Yeah, no wildfires here, and uh none of that crazy 130 degrees nonsense in the summer. And that's why uh there's so many millionaires and billionaires invested in this region.

Julia Villanueva 3:57

It became pretty clear pretty quickly that Abe was highly sympathetic to Lindemann and his presence in Lakecastle. Oh, Abe also mentioned that in addition to working for the government, he also works for the Lindemans as a quote agricultural consultant.

Abe Carter 4:15

At church the other day, someone came up and they said to me, So how big is that underground city? Like uh, like like the Lindemans are mole people. Yeah. You know, these people they they don't realize that if the Lindemans they weren't here, well, we'd get a dozen millionaires slicing and dicing up the land, building dozens of luxury homes anyway. The Lindemans have given $30 million to local nonprofits in this region. They saved entire organizations from closure, places that help young children at risk of dropping out of school, people who are unemployed. The Lindemans are just getting started. They want Lakecastle to thrive. They're living here.

Julia Villanueva 5:04

Well, isn't that a strategy for the Lindemans to buy goodwill in Lakecastle?

Abe Carter 5:10

The Lindemans pay property tax. They create jobs. They gave $10 million to Minnesota State University for wildlife preservation. Cash. You want the university to turn that down?

Julia Villanueva 5:23

I think what feels strange to many people is that the farm hasn't gone through any public review process. So there are no community meetings for residents to discuss or vote or learn about what's happening. So it seems like things are moving very quickly without the residents of Lakecastle getting the chance to understand or have a say in how they're being affected.

Abe Carter 5:46

Here, if uh you you want to talk about the residents of Lakecastle, I'll give you an example. Uh the Nelson Reservoir. Now, about 10 years ago, there was a historic flood. Damn overflowed, canal was breached, and the station was damaged. Now, where are we gonna come up with a hundred million dollars to fix the darn thing? Well, the Lindemans, they they just arrived here. They they stepped up and bought up that land. Now, today that reservoir is as right as rain. Problem solved.

Julia Villanueva 6:22

What about the families who have been living here for generations like yours? Many of them can't afford to live here anymore.

Abe Carter 6:31

Well, let me tell you something interesting. In the 1930s, over half of all iron ore on the planet came from Minnesota mines. Now, this area was an economic powerhouse. From our little spot on the lake, we shipped that iron from our docks all the way to the ocean. And we fueled the whole world. Then uh then the recession hit. Will the last person leaving Duluth, please turn out the lights. Yeah, you're uh you're too young to remember that billboard on I-35. That that was the eighties. When the hippie-dippy environmentalists, they shut down the mines and decimated this region. That was a painful time for the families of Lakecastle. And uh and it's in the past. Jonathan is uh a lightning rod. Some folks idolize him, some hate him. But today, Jonathan Lindeman is improving the quality of life in this town. And I'm glad he's here.

Julia Villanueva 7:48

As I've said, I'm not a journalist, and I knew I needed to talk to a real one. So I reached out to Helga Grant, a retired reporter for the Lakecastle Herald, who spent several years covering the construction of Blue Orchard Farm. Helga was recently let go from the Herald, or as she put it, put out to pasture for asking too many darned questions about the farm.

Helga Grant 8:16

Hey, oh come on in. I just put the kettle on. It'll start whistling in a few minutes. You make yourself comfortable.

Julia Villanueva 8:24

Helga invited me to chat at her home. She has a shock of white hair and big thick black glasses, kinda looks like a mad scientist. She showed me into the kitchen, which was overflowing with stuck. Junk mail was piled high in towering columns on the dining table, an assortment of Christmas ornaments, was laid out on the floor, ready to decorate a tree, even though it was the middle of summer. I saw Latin and Greek textbooks lying open on the counter next to a half-assembled layer cake. Helga is what you might call an eccentric. She's also smart as a whip. And she was full of information about Blue Orchard Farm.

Helga Grant 9:08

Um, it's uh one and a half thousand acres. Completely self-sufficient. It has its own power sources, its own food sources. The Lindemans say they're using it for farming, conservation, wildlife protection. Now, if you make a public records request or two or fifty, here's what you'll see. Multiple mansions. As big as football fields. Tree houses. Tree houses? Log cabin with tree houses. That was the language in the construction company's lawsuit. They sued the Lindemans for non-payment, then they they dropped the lawsuit. Anyway, um the tree houses are in the woods connected by rope bridges. They're spiral-shaped, which doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me, but you know, there you have it. There's a gym, pool, sauna, hot tub, cold plunge, tennis slash pickleball, court, bowling alley, movie theater, an arcade with about a hundred different pinball machines, a museum housing the Lindemans' private art collection, a nursery for baby farm animals for the kids to practice animal husbandry. And of course, there is an underground shelter with a blast-resistant door, which all the mansions can access via the tunnel system. There are cameras everywhere, dozens in and around every building. The doors are soundproofed or keypad operated or you're blind and built to look like they're part of the wall.

Julia Villanueva 10:46

Helga kept going on and on, as if all these facts had been sitting in her head for years and were spewing out uncontrollably. And what she was describing, the size, cost, and specifications of the farm was all unfathomable to me. It made my head spin.

Helga Grant 11:07

One of the most expensive construction projects ever undertaken by a private citizen. The average American home buyer is aiming for their home's value to equal 20 to 30% of their net worth. Blue Orchard Farm is one percent of Lindeman's net worth.

Julia Villanueva 11:40

So how much of that on land purchases?

Helga Grant 11:42

150 million. You remind me of myself when I was younger. If I were more lucid, I would be telling you to watch yourself. Or you'll end up like me. The kooky old lady raising hell at the town hall, the troublemaker, politicians, business leaders, respectable citizens. I call them on their bull loudly in public, and they don't like that. So people say, Oh, that's Helga. She's lost her marble. She's into conspiracy theories. She harasses people. I got restraining orders out on. My husband always said that more people in this town wish me harm than good. If I rub folks the wrong way, it's because I cannot stand lies. There is nothing that fascinates and enrages me more than when I know someone is trying to hide something from me.

Julia Villanueva 12:44

What are they hiding? What are they hiding out there on the farm?

Helga Grant 12:48

Lindeman wants to protect his privacy. No, I'm serious. This is a man who has made his fortune selling information about every human being in the world he can reach. He knows how valuable a person's private life is. He's been enforcing NDAs for decades, ever since his college days. He has an idea of just what can be done with all that data about all those billions of people over generations, how it will be used, and by whom. That'll be long after I'm gone. Hopefully, long after you're gone too. No. I think all that he's hiding out on that farm is the right to live life in peace without being surveilled and intruded upon. And that is a right that he has taken away from us. You know? He might be one of the last human beings to ever enjoy that kind of peace. Oh, there goes the kettle.

Julia Villanueva 14:11

Sara? Hey, oh my god, it's been forever. This is Sara Novak. We were in the same class at Lakecastle High School. We met up at a coffee shop across from Auntie Moose, the famous candy store. Oh my god, what were we in together in high school?

Sara Novak 14:27

I think we did speech and debate together.

Julia Villanueva 14:29

I thought it was math team.

Sara Novak 14:30

No, I was never good enough to be on the math team, no way.

Julia Villanueva 14:34

I got a hold of Sara after reading in one of Helga's articles that Sara's mother had recently received an offer on their family home from Lindeman. So I read that your mom got an offer on your house from Blue Orchard.

Sara Novak 14:52

Uh yeah, yeah. Um, they offered us double the appraisal price.

Julia Villanueva 14:56

Oh, holy geez.

Sara Novak 14:58

Yeah, so my mom is like, great, now I can finally retire, you know. She's 75. She's a workaholic, but when she got the offer from the Lindemans, I was like, Mom, you can finally slow down now. Seriously take a vacation. You can be a snowbird, move to Florida somewhere where you don't have to shovel the driveway.

Julia Villanueva 15:18

Yeah. Wow. So so what's he gonna do with the house? Do you think he plans to tear down the house?

Sara Novak 15:26

We've thought about that, and it makes my mom a little sad, just because it's our family house and we had a couple generations of history in there, you know. But over the past few years, Lindeman bought up 20 homes in our neighborhood. All hundreds of thousands of dollars over the asking price. I mean, we knew he'd demolish the homes.

Julia Villanueva 15:46

Wow.

Sara Novak 15:46

Yeah. But it's not really our business. I mean, he has the right to do what he wants. And it's not like it's just him. There are so many outside companies coming in lately, especially on the North Shore. Buying up single family homes and renting them out, or reselling the parcels of land at a marked-up price. I mean, we're getting pretty used to it at this point.

Julia Villanueva 16:09

Wow. That's a, that's a lot. For you and for your neighbors too, for your family history to just be sold away like that.

Sara Novak 16:20

I mean Yeah, it is a lot, but maybe it's different when you're actually going through it. I don't know. I think we'll be okay.

Julia Villanueva 16:28

I heard he's planning to build a huge wall around the property like ten feet high.

Sara Novak 16:35

Oh, well, that wouldn't be very neighborly. No, I can't imagine he'd do that. I I think he means well. He made a donation to the County Historical Society, and it really helped put everyone at ease.

Julia Villanueva 16:48

Well, thank you for doing this. It was so good to see you again. Say hi to your mom for me.

Sara Novak 16:55

Oh, for sure. Same, I will. We're planning to take a cruise in the winter. We're going to Bermuda. I can't wait.

Julia Villanueva 17:08

Okay, we need to talk about the Nelson Reservoir.

Wendy Watts 17:14

My name is Dr. Wendy Watts, and I'm an archaeology professor at Minnesota State University, Duluth.

Julia Villanueva 17:21

I'll be honest. Uh I tried to read your published papers on the Nelson Reservoir, but I could not get past the geological jargon. Literally, the first sentence of your paper describing um a thick sequence of interbedded metagreywacke.

Wendy Watts 17:41

Yeah. It's like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Julia Villanueva 17:46

Like, I I still don't know what the Penokean Orogeny is.

Wendy Watts 17:51

Penokean Orogeny.

Julia Villanueva 17:53

Penokean Orogeny.

Wendy Watts 17:56

It's a mountain building episode in the early Proterozoic. So about 1.8 billion years ago. So a long time ago in the Lake Superior region, things shifted underground and made big rock formations bulge and break and tilt. So glaciers, movement, and time equals layers.

Julia Villanueva 18:20

Okay. You love rocks. You love really old layered rocks. Why should we care about old rocks?

Wendy Watts 18:30

Well, the stratified sediment preserved ancient human artifacts going back to the very first cultural activity in the region. I mean, we found evidence of fire spears, pottery, copper pieces from thousands of years ago. And we still don't even know how much is left buried out there. I mean, there is so much to learn at that site, and we need more research, more education, and more preservation.

Julia Villanueva 18:55

And now Jonathan Lindeman owns the land on which this all sits. I did read in one of your papers that, quote, good corporate citizenship was necessary to your work. Do you think Lindeman is an example of good corporate citizenship?

Wendy Watts 19:17

I can't really comment on that in that way.

Julia Villanueva 19:22

Okay. Um Jonathan Lindeman's nonprofit organization, which funds your site at the Nelson Reservoir, um, they put out a press release praising you and your work. And it says, uh, quote, we are proud to enable these momentous findings, not just for the field of archaeology, but for every one of us who care about this land and about the people who have called it home. So Lindeman is taking credit for being able to keep your dig site up and running. Uh is that accurate? Is that fair to say?

Wendy Watts 20:02

So this is what I'm gonna say in response to your question. I have the responsibility of speaking on behalf of this land. This is a place of incredible beauty and power. I mean, you can feel it in your bones when you stand on the shore of Lake Superior. And this place where people have waged incredible violence and destruction on the earth, on the water, on the people, the native people who were the original stewards of this land. I mean, there is complicated history deeply embedded into this earth, going back thousands of years. And I've touched pieces of those stories with my own hands. And some of those stories live inside of me through the generations of my family who made the Great Lakes their home. And carrying those stories and passing them on, that's my life's purpose. And when my staff got cut, when my grant funding dried up, when my progress was stalled for years, I mean, giving up was not an option for me.

Julia Villanueva 21:20

So your your relationship with Lindemann, is that would you say, is that a transactional relationship? Is he using your work for PR purposes of his own?

Wendy Watts 21:31

So a real relationship takes a lot of work on both sides, and it takes time to build trust. Even though my work seems seems focused on the past, I am deeply concerned with the future. I mean, without a future, the past doesn't survive, and we need a future, a real one.

Julia Villanueva 22:09

Hey hey, it's sorry I'm late. God, that traffic is insane.

Matt Larsen 22:17

That's Lakecastle construction for you.

Julia Villanueva 22:20

The map said 13 minutes, okay? It took me an hour and a half to get here.

Matt Larsen 22:24

Yeah.

Julia Villanueva 22:25

Oh my god.

Matt Larsen 22:26

That's how it is now, it's a mess.

Julia Villanueva 22:28

This is Matthew Larsen. He grew up down the street and went to school with Sara and me. He also happens to be the nephew of Abe Carter. He helped connect me with Abe. Towards the end of my visit in Lakecastle, I met up with Matt at a brewery. Okay. So you so you are now an anesthesiologist at Forester.

Matt Larsen 22:51

Radiologist, yeah.

Julia Villanueva 22:52

Oh.

Matt Larsen 22:54

Close enough.

Julia Villanueva 22:55

Oh my god. I feel like my Minnesotan accent is coming out talking to you.

Matt Larsen 22:59

It's the beer.

Julia Villanueva 23:01

Oh my god. Okay, do you remember how you used to drive me to Minnesota State University when we were in high school? Before I had my permit.

Matt Larsen 23:12

Yeah, of course. I mean, we would sneak into the computer lab at night. Ugh.

Julia Villanueva 23:16

It was like you, me, Nathaniel, and sometimes Mark.

Matt Larsen 23:20

Uh.

Julia Villanueva 23:21

And we would stay, we would stay up all night, we would play games all night.

Matt Larsen 23:25

Well, you you were hacking into stuff.

Julia Villanueva 23:28

Yeah, and I was in chat rooms. We all were, oh my god, I can't believe we did that.

Matt Larsen 23:33

Oh, you were doing crazy stuff with code. You were taking off.

Julia Villanueva 23:40

So, okay. Mm-hmm. So, what do you think of Jonathan Lindeman? Well, I brought him up in conversation with many people around town. Dozens. Restaurant owners, people at the gas station, on the street. Most people don't even want to talk about him. Period. It's very strange.

Matt Larsen 24:01

I'm interested in his stance on the environment. He's siding with the environmentalists right now, but I have a feeling that could change.

Julia Villanueva 24:09

You think he might advocate for more mining?

Matt Larsen 24:11

Yeah, I mean, he keeps buying up more and more land, and his whole company depends on critical minerals, right? Technology runs on what's in those mines.

Julia Villanueva 24:20

Uh-huh. So you think he can just flip-flop? And go from save the planet to drill, drill, drill? And the people will buy that?

Matt Larsen 24:29

I think the people want to know who it would benefit.

Julia Villanueva 24:32

Right. Right. But he's making decisions behind closed doors right now that affect all of you. Right? Do you think Lindeman cares about the people of Lakecastle?

Matt Larsen 24:49

Cares? I don't know. I mean, he's not a politician. He's not a representative.

Julia Villanueva 24:56

So no.

Matt Larsen 24:56

Well, that's not what I meant. I just.

Julia Villanueva 24:58

Well, you so he doesn't have to?

Matt Larsen 24:59

I don't think he has an obligation to.

Julia Villanueva 25:01

I mean, I I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Sorry.

Matt Larsen 25:05

Well, I have my own feelings about Lindeman the guy, but he brings a lot of power and influence into this community. You know, his moving here raises the potential of what this town can do, you know, what we can be.

Julia Villanueva 25:18

Yeah. Okay. So okay, so here's what I want to know. Like you said, Lindeman keeps buying up more and more land. Right. All this desirable property right on Lake Superior, on the shore of the largest freshwater lake in the world. But not just that. The Nelson Reservoir and Dam. That's a public utility. Right? That's your electric bills. Right? That's a lot of power, literally. That's a big move. He must have plans. Well, uh plans that I'm not sure anyone knows anything about. So what's to stop him from, for example, hiking up your electric bills? Or dumping toxic waste into the reservoir? Who would even find out about stuff like that? Who can he who who can hold him accountable?

Matt Larsen 26:09

We have to hold him accountable, right? I mean, this isn't the first time someone has come here with a lot of promises for this town. We've seen a lot. We have been through a lot. You know, we've seen this before. We know how much we can get hurt. So the people of Lakecastle have to hold him accountable.

Julia Villanueva 26:29

Do you think you're going to live in Lakecastle for the rest of your life?

Matt Larsen 26:34

Yeah, I want to. I want to raise kids here. Alyssa, she always talks about moving to the cities all the time. You know, because her parents brought her up to believe that uh she had to get out of Lakecastle as soon as she turned 18.

Julia Villanueva 26:49

But you don't agree.

Matt Larsen 26:51

No.

Julia Villanueva 26:52

You want to stay in Lakecastle.

Matt Larsen 26:56

Yeah. Yeah, I do.

Julia Villanueva 26:59

Do you feel nostalgic about Lakecastle? The Lakecastle that we grew up in?

Matt Larsen 27:04

Oh, no. Not like some people do. I mean, some people want the town to go back to the way it used to be, or, you know, how they imagine it used to be, but never actually was. We gotta go forward. We we can't go back.

Julia Villanueva 27:19

Yeah. I agree. On my last morning in Lakecastle, I woke up early and took a walk down to the docks. I passed a construction site for an apartment complex. A huge fenced-off hole in the ground behind a big sign that said, coming soon, with a nicely rendered image of what the complex would eventually look like. I reached the shore just as the sun was starting to rise. I skipped a stone on the lake. I dropped another stone into the water and watched the ripples spread out and fade away. I wondered where Lindeman was at that moment. Was he in Lakecastle watching the sunrise? Was he even in the country? Maybe he was halfway across the world. I thought about Abe Carter and the rows and the picture frames on the walls of his office. About Sara and her mom planning their cruise to Bermuda. About Wendy and how hard she had fought to preserve the history of this land. About Matt and his unshakable faith in the people of this town. Not one person I talked to in Lakecastle was willing to admit anything negative about what Lindeman was doing. Nobody had told me that what was happening in this town was wrong. Nobody except Helga Grant. The crazy one. On the next episode of Lakecastle, the dam bursts.

Mary Villanueva 29:31

They've done awful things. They are doing awful things.

Julia Villanueva 29:35

You need someone to shine a light on this town and help right these wrongs.

Sara Novak 29:40

Say, I just wanted to call you because I have some news.

Julia Villanueva 29:44

Oh. Lakecastle is produced by Isabella Dawis and Emma Lai. Directed by Desdemona Chiang. Sound design, mixing, and music by Dan Dukich. Thanks to Kathryn Fumie, Kurt Kwan, Dustin Bronson, Jenessa Iverson, Karen Wiese -Thompson, Reed Sigmund, Oogie Push, and Tom Reed. You can hear all of our episodes and find out more about what's happening in Lakecastle at www.lakecastlepodcast.com. Support for Lakecastle comes from Butter Solutions, delivering the effortless results you crave. Butter, making life smoother. Lakecastle is a production of Sans rival.