Episode #5 - Louise Bawden

What is the ultimate purpose of a sporting system?

In this episode of The Samurai Shift, Peter "Chico" Jones sits down with three-time Olympian, Volleyball Australia Board Member, and President of the FIVB Athletes' Commission, Louise Bawden.

Having experienced sport as an athlete, leader, and international athlete representative, Louise offers a rare perspective on the pressures, opportunities, and responsibilities that exist throughout the sporting ecosystem.

Together, they explore the relationship between performance and identity, the challenges athletes face during and after their competitive careers, and the role sporting systems play in shaping human development beyond medals and results.

The conversation examines what athletes truly need to thrive, why athlete voices matter in governance, and how sport might better serve the people at its centre.

As The Samurai Shift continues its Compression Arc, this episode asks a fundamental question:

If sporting systems exist to serve people, what should they ultimately be producing?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Sporting systems shape far more than performance. They shape identity, opportunity, belonging, and the experiences that people carry with them long after the competition ends. In this episode, I'm joined by a three-time Olympian, volleyball Australia board member, and the president of the FIVP Athletes Commission, Louise Borden. Having experienced sport as an athlete, leader, and advocate, Louise offers a unique perspective on what sporting systems are designed to do and the responsibility they have to the people of their centre. Here's my conversation with Louise Borden. Well, we are now at episode five of the samurai shift, and today's guest is Louise Borden, three-time Olympian, who started out as a 19-year-old in the Sydney Olympic Games playing indoors and then transitioned to beach volleyball around 2008. Soon after represented Australia at the London Olympic Game in 2012, and again in Rio in 2016, where she made the quarterfinals finishing in 2018 and took on an assistant role, assistant coach role with Beach Volleyball at Stanford University in America. She was also appointed the FIVB Athletics Commission, of which she is now the president. Lou also serves on the Volleyball Australia Board, and so has a wealth of information. So Luke, welcome to the samurai shift.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Thank you, Chico. It's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Well, it's definitely been an Well I mentioned this earlier. You bring a really unique perspective to this conversation because you've had both the unlike Damien Schumann last week, who was battling and battling and battling and outside of the program and got into it and had that success in his late 20s. From the age of 19, you've been in that pathway. So you've got the the real deep within the pathway program perspective as an athlete for 20 years as an international athlete. So I'm I'm stoked to have your perspective on on what we're talking about here with with regards to the Australian beach volleyball world. So um let's start off with this. So when you first entered high performance sport back when you were coming out of your teenage years, what what did success look like for you then? Or what were you dreaming of? What were you hoping to achieve?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

You know, I still can remember to this day what um what it felt like and where I was standing when I learned that Sydney had been awarded the 2000 Olympic Games. Um and I couldn't even tell you exactly what year that was, but somewhere in the period around what was it, 95 or I would imagine somewhere around then. At the time I um had never touched a volleyball. I was I was a hardcore netballer, gold fence all the way. And I um I walked into the kitchen and my mum, my mum told me Sydney, Sydney's got the 2000 Olympics, and I was like, oh I was just I was so thrilled. I I got this instant rush of of excitement and um and I always reflect on that day um as as the journey sort of evolved fairly quickly, um not long beyond that that point in my life into volleyball of just something about the the nature of of that promise and and that what that that opportunity meant for sport and for Australia and and definitely with no association directly to me at that point in time, but something that I just really felt moved by. So I think the moment that I I did uh get in touch with with volleyball through my school programme at Vermont Secondary College, I just started to appreciate this connection piece around it being an Olympic sport and and then that it was going to be played in Sydney and that Sydney, you know, was coming, the Olympics were coming to Australia, and and there there was all this sort of cool unfolding of um of uh entering into a whole landscape that I just immediately felt a great love for.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I'd never knew that part of your story that you weren't playing volleyball until you found out the Olympics were happening.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

That's yeah, so it certainly wasn't like a direct, like, oh, I'm gonna go and find an Olympic sport now. I actually would find any sport um that I could play. It was um a hallmark of year seven and eight for me at at high school was that playing in on the school sports team meant that you got to have a day off school for interschool competition. So I um so simultaneously won student of the year and failed attendance, um, which is true story, but uh because I played everything and um and really yeah, really loved all sports. But um we found a bit of uh school school-based success with indoor volleyball, which was really what sparked my journey and got me in contact with the VIS who were running a development program at the time.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Right. So so when you went you know the starry eyes of Olympic Games, like, oh, and then assuming along the way the the opportunity started to become a little bit clearer and a little bit clearer, at what point or or or did the vision of being an athlete did that match the reality of being an athlete?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

So the the idea of being an athlete became um more than getting it out of school. Well, yeah, it became front and center when um I was invited to uh a trial for a VIS training program. And this is I I must have just been at the end of year eight or beginning of year nine, so about 14, 15 years old. Um, and they called it the the future Olympians program. And I got I got a grey polo shirt that was about four sizes too big, and I was pre-wrapped with that, and um, and I just couldn't really get my head around it, but I but the same thing, I had that like, whoa, that's so cool. Like I felt I felt very uh excited to to be associated with this, and and I was really raw, so green at that point. Um, you know, and you could argue even by the time Sydney 2000 rolled around, I still was so, but um, but yeah, that that that point in time was when some of the wheels started to turn in a more meaningful way of okay, like I'm going into the VIS, I'm doing physiological testing, and and they're taking all of my measurements and capturing my data. And um, I'm working with some specialist coaches now and trying to understand exactly you know what this game is technically and tactically. And um, so yeah, the the real sort of gritty stuff around being exposed to high performance environments, um, still a long way from being a high performance athlete, but um, but yeah, starting starting that journey in a in a pretty meaningful way in the learning and exposure sense for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

And was that exciting for you or a bit intimidating or a bit both?

SPEAKER_01 7:20

No, I loved it. I I was I was super excited by it. Um yeah, I I I loved challenging myself and um and and learning from new and and different people. And I never really I was very lucky in terms of some early stage coaches who were were just high quality people. So I think that that the early journey when I reflect back on it, I felt like I could test myself. I felt supported, I felt energized by the challenges and um and was always in in really pretty pretty safe sort of places to be able to do that. Um, you know people, um people like Craig Smith and um and my school coach and Mike Stevens, you know, just just really good people.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Nice. Well, what what surprised you most about the elite high performance journey?

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Well, it was a pretty significant shift um in in my 17th year when I was invited to join the women's national indoor program in Canberra full-time. So um surprises abounded at that point in the journey. Um, it was yeah, well beyond anything that I could have uh even assumed readiness for or made any kind of steps of preparedness for. Uh it was it was a dedicated, full-time, full-on uh daily trading environment with a significant and arduous travel schedule associated with it.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Um away from family.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Moving, yeah, yeah. So, you know, flash forward from that, oh, you know, Australia's gonna host the Olympics to sitting in the lounge room in in my parents' or family childhood home with three suitcases, and my parents sitting on the couch with a a pretty bewildered look on their faces, and me saying, Don't worry, mum and dad, it's gonna be fine. I'll do year 12 by correspondence. I'm gonna get selected for the Olympics, it's gonna be great. Um the Year 12 thing took a little longer than than that. Certainly wasn't a done deal prior to Sydney, but um, but I think that that just that the the significance of the shift and um and the uh uh yeah the totality of of being in an environment like that. I I literally was, you know, a young kid at home at school. You know, I I had my learner's permit, I didn't have a driver's license yet. I yeah, I was super lanky and skinny still and underdeveloped in a lot of ways. And and yeah, I was like, all right, I'm gonna show up to six days a week training. And I think within I think within a couple of weeks, it wasn't many um from entering the the environment in in Canberra. We then went on an eight-week tour of Europe over the winter months, including Christmas in the south of France and New Year's in the UK.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

And wouldn't you prefer doing high school subjects?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Well, no. But we do have we do have the baptism of fire. It was a baptism of fire. I I remember, you know, we we arrived in in Paris, and um the mandate was that we were to stay awake all day to adjust body clocks as quickly as possible. And I was delirious and and um fell down probably one of the biggest set of stairs I've ever fallen down in my life and rolled both my ankles and was too embarrassed to tell anyone and just walked around for the rest of the day hoping that the pain would go away. You know, like these things that you look back on and you're like, man, just trying to adjust and trying to keep pace and and make it all happen. But underneath it all, I never I never doubted that that's where I wanted to be. Uh, and I feel lucky for that.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

It's fascinating because we we see Olympics on television, we see high performance sport on television, professional sport on television, but we don't see this. We don't see the sacrifices that are so not normal from normal day life and and as a general public and a general community, or even even other sportos who who are playing recreationally and socially, we don't see the sacrifice and the huge sacrifices that that people go through. It's it's it's fascinating. At what point did you become aware that high performance comes with such a a huge personal cost?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Probably not until 2001, and I um I accepted my first international contract to play in in the Dutch indoor women's league. Um and I with I don't know an unreasonably short amount of time of notice, so much so that I my parents didn't have time to visit. Um in in training in in Canberra, and I had an agent, and the agent called and said, here's the offer. And so I called mum and dad in Melbourne and said, I think, you know, I've got to take it. Again, I can't tell you why. I felt that was so essential, but I did. And um, and and I'll again, I mean, I couldn't see the bewildered faces at this point because it was um you know after or before the time of FaceTime. Um, I was actually, I remember where I was that day too. I was standing in the hallway um in the gym, the the multi-use gym that we shared. Half of it was boxing and archery, and the other half of it was indoor volleyball. And we just call it the Green Mile because it was the hall down one end that was the floor was painted green, and you looked it every day to get in in and out of training. And I was standing on the green mile and yeah, and I told them I've got to go. And and they said I have to be here by this date if I if I want to accept the offer. And what do you think? Oh, what do you think, darling? I'm like, sounds red hot. No, absolutely nothing about it. Let's do it. So off I went. And um, and yeah, that that was the time where I probably I mean that there's moments prior to that, of course, when you when you walk out on the court for the first time in the Olympic Games and you're like, oh hang on a second. This is this is this is big kids stuff right now, you know, this is legit. And anyone who's a volleyball fan, look back on the caliber of of women who played in that tournament, you know, Cuba and Russia. Yeah, yeah, they they were they were you know forces to be reckoned with as fantastic physical female athletes. And uh yeah, I I definitely still and and I'm sure visibly look to be a little girl by comparison, but um, but it was still within that that that sense of sort of structure, knowns, you know, cult culture and and things that was familiar to me going and and and landing in one of only two imports on the team at the time, um, and you know, varied levels of English and and then not getting paid, and you know, nothing nothing particularly unique, but out of my depth, out of my depth for sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

So do you think that the the system I keep I keep using the word the system, but you know what I mean? The structure of high performance sport.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Do you think that that that the systems talk enough about the things that we don't see, the things that I think that um you know it I I think that it it depends on on which hat I'm wearing and how I would answer that question. Um and and probably what that that speaks to is really just around the challenges that exist in terms of cultural engagement, what what does that information sharing look like? Where does it come from? Who who maintains and holds a responsibility to share? How do we connect with that? You know, there's sort of a an infant infrastructure to um information that I think in sport typically isn't isn't really well executed. As an industry, we we tend to uh you know live the realities of um lower levels of financial investment. You know, the there's just not a lot of high-paying jobs, we don't retain talent for long periods of time, IP walks out the door at a rate of knots in sport, and the you know the wheel turns and and you tend to sort of survive on the basis of the most critical things are the ones that are are solved to meet what's essential. Um, and and then you know, things, things that that sit as as important and in and actually quite vital to the success of a system as as you're describing it, um, don't necessarily have um the answer to the question clearly at any given point in time, whose job is it?

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Yeah, it's a fascinating one because if you and also is there a need? Because you mentioned before about jumping in the deep end and and you know, if finding yourself in Canberra, and sometimes you could see that's important to go through that because it's going to forge the will and it will find the ones who are suited to that. Um, it will find the ones who can deal with that and the ones who who aren't, then maybe don't have what it takes to keep going forward. And granted, my the the view I have on those things is that those people still have value within our system and we should find ways we can communicate to them to help them find their place so that we don't have that you know IP leaving channel.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Chen and Burning, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Which is very much inherent in this what I call the gladiator model of sport, which is like it's like trying to get to the Colosseum and then we get killed and then you know not looked after anymore. But that whole sense of you know, would it be a value to the human and then the sport if there was more conversations and support around, you know, whether it's the coaches or the program managers, when when you kind of get to that international level to be able to say, hey, look, these are the things that you're gonna have to be willing to deal with, or is it just a matter of throwing kids into the deep end and saying you can deal with them? It's like a little bit of the Hunger Games thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

I don't know. I mean, yeah, uh if you use that, well, the hunger game, I've always been a big fan. I'm a pretty big fan of Katniss. I I do I do like the Hunger Games story, but um no, I I I think I think that there's a lot of um there is a lot of system growth. I think that you know, in Australia we we do we have the the equal challenge and benefit of um of a system that is is largely driven by government investment. Uh as a result of that though, we do have some of the the benefit and um interest from a federal perspective in that that sort of system quality and system-based growth. And when I'm saying that, I'm meaning more around well, how are we building better organizations? How are we both challenging and supporting organizations to be able to execute and deliver um that those those types of activities, or at least um have uh a strong enough structure and integrity about them that then that that learning and that community building is possible? If there's foundational things at play, in place that um that allow for that that connection and that growth.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And can I ask you, this is uh I I was gonna delve into a bit more of some of the the the athlete perspective. But with what you were saying then though, it's an interesting point in that with with the effort going into developing the system and the structures, all systems and structures are there to produce something. What's what's the end goal of a better sporting system within a government-funded world?

SPEAKER_01 20:09

I think a healthier Australia.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

I I mean, and by health, I I mean both in in terms of um you know physical, psychological, and cultural. I I think, you know, in in all the ways is is that um how how we can live, play and grow together, um with with sort of a a success at scale. That and and sport has such a great power to connect, you know, that's that's truly one of the the most favourite things that I have about the journey is is the opportunity that volleyball has provided me to move across environments and and meet people and and engage with places and and cultures that just would not have ever been available to me otherwise. And and yet, despite absolute gaping chasms of difference, you find yourself connecting and connected um through sport. And especially the fact that volleyball is so global, is just I think such a beautiful thing. And and so, you know, philosophically or in a in a deeper sense of um value of that, um, is another way of looking at well, what is the system here? It's also a belief system that that it's worth it's worth growing, it's worth protecting, um, and that it's of value.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

I it's it's fascinating. When I when I started researching sport, it it's it's in the top ten most successful industries in the world. You know, when you're talking industries, you've you've got so many different aspects of sport, but as far as financial beast entity. That's big. And so there is so much impact that sport has, and that's why I'm fascinated to to really look into the sport that I've been involved with for a long time and kind of go, okay, are there tweaks that we can make to this? Are there things that we can do to to bring more considered value to humanity and the people and the humans who are doing it? Identity is an interesting one. Hey do you as far as like at what point do you think or how much of Louise Borden became athlete? Oh um do you know what I mean by that like like identifying as this is my identity I am an athlete.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

I mean how how much of your identity do you refine before 17? Probably not much. Not much we think we do we think we never say oh dear I um yeah no I I would safely say I I did not know much. And so I I think it's it's impossible for me to disentangle the two. It's and and and I am very much at peace with that. I don't I don't feel any any need to to be separate from that and and I think at times that's a great strength for me. It means that I I have a pretty deep well of energy and and I can draw on pretty natural resource of um care and interest and and and inclination to contribute and and have effort towards sport and volleyball in particular it also means that I'm deeply affected by things and and it's hard to switch off and it's hard to not feel especially now even at times really personally directly responsible for how things are growing and and how things are going going. And do you see it because within the FIVB Athletes Commission it's a big big role important role do you see where that uh that identity of being an athlete do you see where that gets impacted when you know people retire who maybe don't get involved with sports like have you seen that the negative side of that clearly that you've adjusted well to that being a part of who you are yeah and and I think it's um it's one of the the core areas of um focus and and investment that we've been making in this quad for for the Athletes Commission is to see how we can improve upon our system um and in that sense I mean through the lens of the International Federation as a as the custodian of the global growth and development of volleyball and beach volleyball um we have a a very central responsibility to set the bar and um and show the rest of the world what's important and um and I'm I'm really conscious that the FOB has done a very direct and and intentional job of that in the way in which the Athletes Commission itself has evolved over the last 10 to 12 years going from something that was just an appointed group of of leaders um of past players um to something that that is now formally recognised it's constitutionally integrated um it's it's meeting governance standards in terms of its composition and um and it has full legitimacy in terms of a seat at the table from a FIVB board of administration standpoint as well. So we have a vote um and um and I participate on the board um in that capacity as well as sitting as the president. So you know there that for sure it only amplifies the sense of responsibility but um but also stimulates that um that energy and and that excitement for how how it can make that meaningful contribution. One of the things and just relating to your question around you know those that that don't necessarily have the same opportunity to to build or or extend a positive relationship with the sport after their playing days we are we are attentive to that um and and in 2025 in October we were able to um work with the support of the FIVB and and through um the project development with the Athletes Commission we delivered a career transition program so a bespoke volleyball program that what we built um with volleyball and beach volleyball athletes in mind.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

So it was really about trying to even enhance through identification of culturally what does it mean to be a retired or retiring volleyball beach volleyball athlete what do they need um what's of interest and also how can we provide them with enough um exposure and and learnings around the sport ecosystem to provide opportunities for where their touch points might be for where they they can maintain involvement in a whole range of areas as a sport that's that's truly growing at scale globally opportunities are increasing all the time but it's not always easy to access that information and so you know you've got to be targeted and that sort of I think is a true um challenge to um at at the global scale is what we were talking about in terms of right down at grassroots and community how do you make sure people understand like how do you understand yeah right yeah how does that are you getting much cooperation from uh from the countries because you think that it was like if Boris oh sorry I didn't mean Boris who I had on the guest but it's the first thing that came to mind Boris and maybe I did Boris plays in a country he's an international volleyball athlete he has access to the information that you're providing him hey life after being an athlete this is fantastic you're getting much support from Boris's country or the or the different federations around the world to to look at building this out well at this point in terms of being able to get to the point of developing and delivering the pilot where we've had the positive engagement from national federations is is through the support of the representatives on the board of administration.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

So all of all of that you know to come to existence it it had to go through a some levels of support and approval. So you know that that is always the first step because it creates again said before it creates sort of the standard and if it's getting the tick there then it that's one of the best ways to influence the the network and the landscape. And and prove its worth and to yeah yeah and and look it it's certainly not a cure all it it is just a marker and it is a a demonstration of activity um to to show and and to um even you know create a bit of noise around what's possible and and we had some really great opportunities to to do that through some association with the International Olympic committee and support of Kirsty commentary and things like that which was really valuable in in way in which we can you know get get it out there and and and sort of have more influence over that future support.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

I think it's great and going back to the idea of the the samurai what this is all based on that the the idea of the samurai during the peaceful era was that these men and women were being trained to be the leaders of society. So that their their athletic training if you like their their their warrior training was a vehicle to them ultimately being the leaders of society in the various fields of education, legal politics whatever it was and so you can kind of see what you're doing here with the outreach commissions being a step towards that. So that sounds really interesting to kind of and whether they stay involved in a sport as a coach or administrator or whatever it is within their whatever their society and their culture needs.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah so we I mean we got the sort of had a lot of those um you know hopeful outcomes in mind through the development and and then the um the application process the selection of the of the final group you know we had quite a high interest for what was ultimately going to be a very small group um but maintained in that group core principles that are also um primary to the Athletes Commission in terms of gender balance discipline balance and and global truly global representation from all continents so bringing those 14 athletes together when we did and meeting all of that criteria meant that then they're now back scattered all over the world um doing their things and um and many of them have already which is super exciting and I'm I'm I'm just so um yeah I'm just so I feel I like the the adults I'm not proud of them but I'm I'm proud of the way in which it's it's showing value or it has shown value already in the way in which some of those participants have turned it into um next steps for themselves. So they've had yeah participants Maria Clara Salgado's gone on to start a commentary journey with volleyball world um we got one participant even got um she's um Sonia Maligersky um um got invited to do uh like one of the remote TED talks like there's just all these things there's a couple that have completed the technical delegates course and are now um contributing in that capacity um uh back to volleyball and and beach volleyball so yeah like loads of things that um that have evolved as a result of um of just that that kind of chance to better see themselves better understand the ecosystem and and and then remember the love that that was all always there and and how that can connect them to you know value and meaning in in their pursuits.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

And do you do you see that there's scope in there to then scale that down to your role within volleyball Australia I had a I had a great conversation with um um Sully Rusby who who um uh is playing with Josie Schumann at the moment and doing great things and and he's got some amazing things going on when it comes to um providing service to uh whether schools or local businesses with doing talks and helping out so he's really starting to add value to the world around him which supports him in a financial sense as he's continuing his athletic pursuits but also he's really seeing it as an opportunity to hey potentially I can build something around me to help others do the same thing as me but but but also to beyond sure you know when I do retire so he's almost preceding what you're doing but but do you see that there's there's scope to scale down that program into Australia in Australia we're too early to say I think well um I've got a 25 page PowerPoint presentation and growing of trying to figure out how to how to sort of capture the program and and yeah and and some strategy development on what's next.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

I mean I think that what is true in Australia is that we have an extremely um well it is I shouldn't say extremely because it's not available to all but but within a system within the the national system um whereby athletes who are identified by their national body um so you do have to be at a certain level of um of going up the performance pathway but um but once you reach the national categorization framework you you do have access to what is now required by all national bodies which is that to have an embedded athlete wellbeing and engagement lead so um their their remit and that that whole landscape is is one that that is um I would I would say really one of the world leading systems in in my experience in terms of how much exposure I've had to athletes across different countries and environments um where you are you are truly supported and encouraged um to bid your career in in athlete sports and you know Canada's another one that that does it extremely well and in some ways I think possibly better than Australia but but we do have a a meaningful significant and measurable shift um in the in the national sporting systems across um AIS funded and sports commission funded sports um where you yeah you it's almost a requirement that you can't sort of just be so singular and and fall so deep into your sport that you lose your journey altogether and um and I think there's there's a lot of value and benefit to that everything in balance um but but for sure the the generations coming through whilst they face more significant challenges in some ways in being a high performance athlete I think that there's much better awareness now around um the the necessary element of life after sport and and preparation for that. Yeah nice a bit earlier we spoke a bit about the the pressures of an athlete that that the community don't see what are the pressures of an administrator governance that the athletes don't see I thought I thought about this this space before before we had our our talk because I did um I did think that that was a likely question that you might ask me. Well it's fascinating because often we just have people within a community just kind of going oh they do this they don't do this da da da da da da and but often it's there's a lot of ignorance there whether that's a communication problem or whatever it is but it's it's interesting so yeah what do you think um I think it's that there is um the the the challenge I consistently find myself faced with is um and and what the athletes it it's you know it's not their job to understand it you just have to hope that they can respect it um but that there is no perfect solution um so the the balance of of decision making um and the the necessary fundamental elements of that which a lot of the time have to do with the bank balance um uh are just not always um and sometimes not enough uh showing up for athletes in a way that makes sense to them so you know there there's um there's piece there's a piece in that I think where it's a never-ending um journey of improvement in in how we are being intentional in in bringing athletes particularly our high performance athletes where we are asking or expecting of them to make significant personal investments sometimes financial um in in some of our our groups that that is true and and then especially for those that are pursuing it full time it it's it's a huge chunk of your life it's days on earth that you don't get back it's time with your family that you don't get back and and I think that we need to be conscious of of the the need at times when it doesn't feel necessary or even maybe sometimes not that achievable um but but bringing the athletes along making sure that they're able to maintain an appreciation for the balance of decision making for the um how the how the strategy is living and breathing through the operational structures and decisions it is I think it is a measure of good culture.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

And it's great that there are more and more athletes who are getting involved in governance because you would have that consideration as far as what it's like to be an athlete coming through.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yeah everybody internally is very tired of me sometimes but um but it's important that no I'm well I'm well supported to beat that drum and and rely I mean relied upon to in fairness as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Yeah I think that's really important that the that the the pressures that the athletes are under is is considered as well and you know hopefully down the track and and finances is always going to be an issue but hopefully down the track and maybe this is a a a a down the pathway thing a state governance thing where where the athletes who stop climbing the mountain you know are still valued and are still considered within the landscape. At some point it comes down to human resources.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yeah you know I I think that um I think it's a it's really a two-way street and and what we spoke about before in terms of bringing athletes together post-career um what what really showed up was was just that first of all they often underappreciate their skill sets um and and the value of the contribution that they can provide and um and second of all they don't generally have a very high level of of understanding of um of the the back end of sport you know the the yeah what goes on in the engine room and um and how they might be you know be able to be of service or find value and enjoyment through an ongoing contribution.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

And those those how do we call it the the the pressure understanding that the the the pressures that administrators might not see in athletes or the pressures that athletes might not see in administrators where do you see those colliding like what what tends to be the point that that magnifies all that I think I think high performance is always is always a bit of a um a hotbed of um pressure you know and and and it's in some ways I I think it's a a a reality of the nature of high performance full stop.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

I don't I don't think there's any way to to beat the game when it comes to pursuing high performance you know at a national and international level it's it's going to be hard and it so it probably makes the most sense that it's also hard for administrators and and coaches and and operational teams and team managers as as as it is also for athletes is because you're striving to do something that is difficult to do and that other talented people in the context of international competition all over the world are also trying to do at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

So and how much does money come in play with that? Yeah I mean of course it's I mean you don't want to oversimplify things and and there's always the glory stories of of those that had nothing but um you know one gym and two balls and a lot of heart and grit but in this day and age that we we understand that um the best teams in the world have an availability of resource um uh to to not just you know hone and and refine at the very highest level but but to essentially build an ecosystem um and service that ecosystem of high performance athletes um that um that maintain a a level that allows them to continually um yeah battle for for success at the highest level so I'll ask this question when we go to two areas one the international and then two the national what's your sport getting better at start international what are we getting better internationally beach volleyball or volleyball or yeah uh well as let's say beach volleyball this is a volleyball concept and and and I'm not saying hey the jump setting's becoming a great thing so not so much technically with the game but as a system and a structure what what are we getting better at?

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Oof that is a that's a big big question that's a and the timing of that um is is yeah probably more pointed than than you you could even have predicted okay well no it's just no it's just it it's just it it what the I think you know what the sport is um where where we're growing is that um we we are uh demanding success of ourselves um at at the highest level that i've i've had the the privilege of observing um which definitely does not make for a a cakewalk um by any stretch um quite the the opposite it is pretty difficult um to turn those questions into a a process and a plan um but i think that it's essential if we really want to turn beach volleyball into uh a global sport that that is sustainable and um and that is underpinned by um a model both in terms of of competition and financially um that that forms a strong foundation for ongoing growth nice and what about within australia is that a microcosm of the macrocosm or is there other things what's what what are we what are we doing well in Australia what's what's growing you know in Australia we what we have done um really well is um is build up our national training programs for beach volleyball um we're we're especially in on the men's side of the game really blessed with the the most depth than I think we've had 100% um so for I don't know like maybe maybe in sort of in in the history of of beach volleyball in terms of performance depth well we've never won one two three of the Asian championships actually yeah yeah yeah it's pretty cool two Olympic teams is is pretty rare yeah so so yeah that's uh um so I'm extremely um excited by that and and hopeful that that's gonna convert to to more of the top end level of success which we're well positioned to do in terms of you know the playing age and the actual age of a lot of those athletes on the men's side of the program and and you know if it's it's within our system uh we're learning all the time from what's working what isn't um and and I think we're gonna be able to carry over more of that into the the women's side of the program and we're seeing some early stages of that it's probably just at a different evolution everything's a bit cyclical in these things and you don't get waves of talent all at the same time so um so we keep working on it I think the other thing that you know we've grown is that we have um gone right to the absolute top of the spore in terms of events so we've hosted the world championships not a lot of countries can say that in fact you know none in the southern hemisphere and you know just that that um experience the the level of event based expertise um and and the learnings you know some tough learnings but important learnings for us as a sport will position us really well um for the next level of strategic evolution and delivery of of beach volleyball you know at a national level nice what are we struggling at nationally internationally well if I stay with the the line of thought around national it's it's it goes without saying that that we all are crying out for and desperately want a legitimate national tour. Yeah and there is periods of time where we've felt that we've had it um probably you know it's an oversimplification but one of the issues with that is that it's sort of come and gone with specific sponsors um and and not been something that we've been able to sustain in the absence of those sponsorship agreements. So it's felt like progress externally and I was a participant on Renault and um Vodafone even and and maybe Chico you were back in the Peters days I think that was some I was back in the Vatari days I think back in the free ice cream days the Pepsi days yeah yeah pretty cool um and and you know what interestingly and and I don't know that anyone is I certainly don't have the time but I I would love to read um you know a a study and the cultural evolution of sport because actually every every country that that is quite successful and and has a high level of engagement in beach volleyball seems to have a bit of a similar story and there there might be a bit of a model in that in terms of investment in sport more generally where where brands were perhaps a little more open than they are these days to engaging with sports products. Yeah it's definitely changed and especially on smaller scales where you're not you're not going to be able to monetize the ROI especially not year one with any partnership agreements and it's just as a result of that it's just really hard to to get things over the line these days and I think not just for our sport.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah with regards to our sport but more specifically in America um Kent Stefas you know gold medalist has got a really interesting thread going on on Facebook at the moment and his views about the business side of sport and how it yeah and and where it has failed over there and and a lot of it comes down to the identity as far as like what our what beach volleyball is um and how how it you know is it's anyhow I won't go into it now if you if you're interested and for those that's yeah yeah interested um look out for Kent Stevers on Facebook it's um it's an interesting perspective and um and we've always had the cycles here in Australia. I mean Vodafone was a I found out was a strategic they they basically wanted to come in and invest heavily in a culture for three years and then it was always part of their plan to get out. So although they came in everyone thought it was great but they always knew they were leaving and so is this um yeah oh good point um when you look back on your career or change tack a little tack a little bit now when you look back on your career wh where did you feel the greatest pressure and you could call this whether as an athlete or a in governance within your life within this sport because this this section of the samurai shift is about compression like when pressure starts to build when did you feel the most pressure you know I I I probably feel the most pressure now.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

Sorry I thought I was I was creating a safe space no no no no no not directly now in this conversation I mean in this in this uh in this chapter of of my life because for me the way that um like I'm I'm I'm a bit of a uh warrior by nature bit of an overthinker like to control lots of things um and so when I was an athlete and particularly when I um found beach volleyball um and and really pursued that opportunity to try and um re-engage with with the high performance structure um in Adelaide from from right from the beginning I I had a sense of familiarity even though I did not know how to play beach volleyball very well at all and you saw some of those early days in in beach in me the Mortyelli days yeah I still remember one of your lessons Frank's an open yeah yes that's right that's right and always dying heat stroke in St Kilda and those sorts of things but I I still remember one of your your lessons about trying to don't try to dig into the sand Louise I'm like my god what must have that look like it's like this six foot blonde tractor just like targing through the sand um you're like try and stay on top of it I'm like okay that's an interesting idea I've absolutely no idea how to do that but I'm listening and I'm learning and but um but no right from from for me you know especially if I reflect on my beach volleyball journey there was always a structure there was always a plan um there was always goals there was lots of times you know in a in a sort of daily sense in a competition sense a lot of moments on court you know I served a a ball into the tape to go to the semifinals of world championships um in in The Hague on the centre court and there you know there's lots of moments where you're like no I I did not deliver in a in a moment of pressure there but um but in a in a more overarching sense of what is what is a a uh a sense of pressure for me is that there is I'm in positions now where I I very deeply feel a sense of responsibility um and I do not have a high level of control. And and that's tough for me.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

It's a it's a fascinating perspective and what like I'm hearing there that within the athlete world it's quite a selfish journey isn't it you you you do it all for yourself and everybody's there to help you do your thing and there are lots of things and high-five you every day and you leave every day with a balance sheet. Yeah and what was good and what can I change and now I go get a massage right right and but now you're in this world where you're responsible when you take that responsibility on for the pathway of countless numbers of people yeah well yeah and just making a valuable contribution how how do you define that and and do you think that the world of athletic performance even though it's not the same has prepared you for that because you must have learned how to deal with pressure in those moments has that prepared you well for this moment that you're in now I think that my my journey as an athlete um consistently rewarded effort um and and particularly um effort that that came with a pretty strong will to fight um to fight through discomfort or challenging situations.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

You know that there's there's many a yarn you can tell around the times when it all went wrong um where you show up in a country without a visa or you've got horrendous food poisoning or you know just all the all the things and um and I I just yeah I I and I chose to pride myself on being a fighter. I'm gonna I'm gonna just I'm gonna keep fighting for this I I've got to I've just got to give it a crack and keep giving it a crack. And so I think I was absolutely rewarded and it that choice for me that it was one of value and and so in the face of of these challenges now I'm um okay I don't get the chance to express it as physically as at times it might you know feel healthy for me because if you can just go and get it all out physically and play hard and and be tired and done at the end of it and and that be the measure of your effort there there's a beauty and a simplicity in that that no longer is available to me but um but certainly in terms of the intent and to say well you know when it's uncomfortable I'm still there when I'm tired I'm still there when it doesn't feel right I'm I'm still going to fight for it and and we're gonna figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

Yeah resilience is a powerful thing at sport teachers are say and maybe you can incorporate some more high fives and massages to fight days in these people moments of pressure.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

Massages in the boardroom area maybe after the board my gosh so what do you know now that you wish your 16 year old self what would you what would you tell that 16 year old self or other 16 year olds as they undertake a journey similar to yours oh man like it's it's one of those moments where cliches are bound right brilliant oh just never stop learning you know I I I think I I think that one is it is such a a throwaway line but um but I think of of all the things that serve me and I've spoken to a couple of things but but cultivating and and holding an authentic genuine interest in in learning something new whether it's from a person or an environment or or genuine technical knowledge um of which there's still so much ahead of me in in the environments that I'm currently working um you know it just can never really go wrong because particularly in sport it attracts and and and good people gravitate to it and and good people are sharers they care and and if you you bring that attitude that you're there to learn you you're doing your best and and you're willing to engage and connect and pick up something new and show them the respect and then the knowledge that comes before you then you just you can't really fail um not it not in a personal sense. And what are those what are the young people going through that journey need most from the systems around them that they're traveling through and traveling with I think they need knowledge they you know I I mean I've I've always like I said before I I've always been a real um you know thinker and a planner and and you know wanting that sort of little bit of extra control that comes through knowledge and the preparedness that can come through that. It also meant that I was fortunate when I was met with good teachers because you could pick things up and prioritize that over over other things. I never I never really found that I had as much challenge with you know coaches that were maybe grumpy old men or that there was um you know a highly cultural culturally different coach that that didn't um you know speak great English it it never I never genuinely felt like that was a big barrier to what I was trying to get out of the experience with those people and and it's because I just I was sure that they knew things that I didn't and I I was keen to learn and and so it's in this immediate bridge it's it's it's an immediate kind of opportunity that then just inherently is formed between you and and whatever it is that you're engaging with.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Yeah I love that it's it's such that thirst for knowledge is um it's critical hey so when you look back on your on your playing days let's let's go we'll go playing days and even though you're currently doing what you're doing so I'll incorporate again I'll incorporate the entire scope of that.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

What motor matters most to you now I think um again I I just I the cliches right but um I I think that that more athletes get the chance to to open doors you know it's that um you know the previous point in terms of well what do they need I say they need knowledge but it doesn't just land on you you know and you can you can try to find it but if those doors are locked then good luck you're only going to get so far so you know a stronger sport with um good quality decision making that's well rounded um and and um and it's informed from multiple viewpoints um a sport in Australia that works collaboratively with its states you know that that's it's it's far easier said than done but but it is it is so important to be able to achieve the the outcome of being able to make this sport a a journey of value for for more athletes and um I have a a an uh specific affinity for the high performance you know it's it's ingrained in me and and I I believe in it really strongly in terms of um the value that it places to the rest of the sport the better that we do that the more inspiration and aspiration we can feed. So I I think that you know when it comes to being able to ensure that um the the magnetic qualities of a dream worth chasing exist we we really need to to make sure that the sport is in a state to be able to provide that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

Yeah wonderful oh it it it's so good and and and I'm I'm loving how it it's almost like what I'm reading into what you're saying is that you've been really grateful for the opportunities that sport's given you and that now you're in a position where you can help the sport provide opportunities for other people which is a wonderful sense of service and putting back.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

So um I tip my lid to you no need but but thank you thank you it no it's a it really it is a pleasure and um and I I am I'm so I am so grateful because um in some ways it it you know one of my favorite sayings you can't make old friends and and it's um it feels like a similar relationship is that I I could go and double down on on a governance journey in another sport and it wouldn't feel the same. It's an old friend and so you know it's a it's a long and and deeper relationship and um and I I really love the qualities of that. It feels like something that yeah you can't buy and it's precious and um and so it's a privilege to to be able to be part of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

I love that I'm gonna ask a final question of you now Lou which is I ask everybody if there was one little knob one little thing that you could do to fix or to fix to improve and enhance Australian beach volleyball what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

What do you think would have the most impact if you could flick the switch uh if I could flick the switch of one of Australia's billionaires to uh inspire a uh uh a long lasting philanthropic investment in the sport that would that would probably be you know the knee-jerk kind of response to that question.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

And what would you do with the money?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

Um you know probably build state based high performance centers with fully funded coaches and performance support staff and um and and a million pathway programs below it and social competitions and and entire little epicentres of of beach volleyball which to an extent in and in some ways we already have but um I'm sure adding a few zeros to those and building new um centers and and budgets would would allow us to to do a fair bit. But if I speak in you know in real terms and and in in the tangible terms I I think that that we do have to be able to um sustain a a national competition. I I think that um and and I when I say that I don't mean only only high performance I I think there's and and I actually think that it would be better if it wasn't only high performance you know for sure have that that pinnacle event or have that show caught and and do that thing. Like I said there's always going to be great love for me in that but I think there's you know for sure there's there's value um to the sport and to its commercial potential and and you know of course to our our high performance aims but um but imagine imagine week long imagine 10 days sort of you know and we're we're working towards and we've been working and we've been work shopping and and delivering levels of that you know over the past five years the volley slam and volifest and the you know the the different concepts like it's there it's not it's not we're not certainly not starting from zero but um but I think that when you look at a map of Australia it should be you know hotbeds all around the coastline and in some great regional centres again which we've started but could certainly expand upon to to truly um you know strengthen deepen the engagement um and just provide more opportunities yeah I I don't think that anybody's ever spoken of beach volleyball and and and said oh yeah I like the sport that there was just bad people involved it's just I've never heard it I've never experienced it I think there is there is just something magic and beautiful about the the energetic yeah premise of of beach volleyball and the people that it attracts there is just having coach bad people many kids I speak to many parents who come to volleyball from different sports I won't mention them and just noting how toxic the culture is um and I I don't judge it as being toxic I just you know it's different different sports bring out different things but uh all of those parents are blown away by how positive volleyball is and beach volleyball again is different yeah volleyball is quite tribal beach volleyball is quite community um and all of them are are really wholesome um so yeah I I agree with you and humbling and humbling a game a game of learned skill and a game of mistakes and and it it's it's on a personal level and a team level and when there's indoor there's multiple people in the team and then when there's beach volleyball there's just you and your partner.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

I've said it before I think I've learned so much more from playing beach volleyball when it comes to my marriage than I have you know out of any other conversation around how to be a good husband you know so much in partnership.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

That's true. Absolutely I agree.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

Lou I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation I just want to thank you for your time and input and um and level of service putting back into the sport these days so um thank you thank you once again.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

Thank you Chico same goes to you thanks for contributing this podcast I think it's great. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Okay bye now next time on the Samurai Shift we'll explore what happens when performance becomes a dominant priority and how coaches and culture influence this my guest is Mick Nelson one of Australia's most experienced high performance coaches. Together we'll examine the pressures expectations and trade offs that exist inside elite sporting environments and the role of the coach and culture. I hope you'll join me