Episode #6 - Mick Nelson

In this episode of The Samurai Shift, Peter "Chico" Jones is joined by renowned high-performance coach and coach developer Michael Nelson.

Having coached Australian athletes through multiple Olympic campaigns before transitioning into national coach development with the Australian Institute of Sport, Mick brings a rare perspective on what it takes to build not only successful athletes, but thriving coaches and healthy sporting environments.

Together, they explore the pressures that exist inside high-performance sport, the evolving role of the coach, and why culture, relationships, and purpose are becoming just as important as performance itself.

The conversation examines how coaching is changing, what the next generation of coaches need most, and why developing people—not just results—may be the key to creating sustainable sporting success.

As The Samurai Shift continues its Compression Arc, this episode asks a powerful question:

If coaches shape athletes, how are we shaping the coaches?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Every athlete's journey is shaped by the people who coach them. But who develops the coaches? In this episode, I'm joined by renowned high performance coach and coach developer Michael Nelson. After guiding Australian athletes through to multiple Olympic campaigns, Mick's focus has shifted from developing elite performers to developing the coaches who shape them. Together we'll explore the evolving role of coach, the pressures of high performance sport, and why great coaching is about far more than producing results. Here's my conversation with Mick Nelson.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Episode number six of the samurai shift, it's hard to believe. We're halfway here, and I am very pleased to have Mick Nelson onto the show. Mick, welcome. Thanks, Chico. Appreciate it. Mick, I've known you for a long, long time. And uh yeah, so very and now you've stepped into the world of actually coaching coaches, which is a fascinating realm. So I'm very pleased to have you on board. So thanks for your time today. Pleasure, Chico. Mate, before you became an Olympic coach, you clearly loved the game and you then developed a love of coaching. What was your journey from player into coach? What did that look like?

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Um, I think, Chico, your memories of me as a player were a long time ago. Um, I think probably a hack at best. Um and I think when someone taps you on the shoulder when you're in your early 20s and says, hey mate, have you thought about coaching? That's a really good sign that you're gonna continue uh along the high performance pathway as an athlete. Um yeah, so so that happened. Uh 2007, I I got something. The the government had a coaching apprenticeship for two years, they called it a scholarship coach program to go where it was no different to you know, you go and get a trade or you get an apprenticeship. I I did it in coaching and high performance coaching. Is that under SATI? Uh that was through um the AIS Beach Volleyball Program, as it was back then. I think there was a period where the AIS were running sport programs, they haven't for a really long time now, and I'm gonna say from about 2004, Athens sort of ish, through till about 2012. I reckon the AIS were running sport programs, and then they jumped out and handed all the programs back to the sport. So um, yeah, someone in the National Federation tapped me on the shoulder and said, Hey Mick, there's this thing, we encourage you to apply, and we're gonna see if we can get a spot and it and it worked out. Um, so the first week of January in 2007, Chico, I was 25 years old and a full-time coach for the first time. Obviously, I'd been dabbling in coaching and and doing bits and pieces um before that, you know, it wasn't out of nowhere, um, you know, working with junior state teams and and uh programs and things. Um yeah, but it was a pretty amazing moment in time, Chico. You know, one of those sliding doors moments in your life. You say yes, don't really know what you're into. And your first week of of becoming a full-time coach, um, Alice Rocamper relocates to join the national team. Um Carol Palmer starts in the national team for the first time. So these young talented, they were just on the back of winning their under 19 World Champs campaign the year before. Um, so they roll in the door the same first day as me. And my first day as coaches, their first day as full-time athlete, yeah, which was a really cool experience. And then a week later, an Olympic gold medalist rolls in and and Nat um relocates to to the same program to work under Alamal. Um uh and so her and Tamson had just teamed up, and and so here I am, and you know, green is green, and no bloody idea what I'm doing, Chico. And uh the big Brazilian put his arm around me in that first week and he says, Um, Mick, welcome to the team. You are part of the team, and your voice matters, so speak up. Nice. And I thought, ooh, okay, this this is big, this is significant. All of a sudden, here I am, 25 years old, green is green, and don't really know what I'm doing. Um, and I'm now a support mechanism for you know our number one women's team and trying to help nurture these um young, aspiring female athletes as well. Yeah, it was a pretty it was a pretty cool time. I reckon Chico, I spent the next three or so years just trying to repay that faith, that trust, that big arm, the big Brazilian arm that went around me on day one. I reckon I spent the next two or three years just really trying to repay that faith that got put in me.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Fantastic. And I'm thinking that stepping into that environment and then having those athletes and Alamao there, that your goals would have been both how do I do the job and what is the job, as as well as you're in this high performance where it this as you said as a number one women's team, you've got to get a medal. What was the was your definition of success the medal at that point? Oh, good question, Chico.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Um, I I if you asked me at the time, I would have said a medal, but deep down there were much bigger things at play there about supporting people and helping people. It just would have been the safe answer to say a medal, but I think there were probably some more truths going on in the background. Um, you know, it and you just do anything you can to bloody help, right? I just wanted to please, I just wanted to be accepted and please people was probably the start point is so you know, I'll fill up the bloody drink bottles of training if that's what needed, you know, and then you become a partner because you're young and you're fit enough that you can you can I reckon Tamson would have blocked me 10,000 times in that two-year period. Like I was just swinging an angle and she would block, and then we'd do it again, and we do it again. Yeah. So you become the performance analyst, so you have to learn some performance analytics, and you're the training partner, and then you're the equipment manager, and then you're the opposition scout, and then you're the you know, emotional support, and you just learn it all as you go. Um, it was an amazing learning learning time um for me to go through. And and Chico, what up this is something I learned from Nat. Um, you know, she'd she had relocated and a new team was forming, right? And so as the new team's forming, there's some exploring and discovering, and Nat said something one day, and I thought, oh, that's gonna stay with me for the rest of my life. She said, In this team, I can't lose myself. I am not my results. And I just went, ah, yes, that spoke to me. And I've always carried that with me in terms of you know purpose and trying to do. It's like, yeah, we might end up with a medal at the end of it, but we're actually the work that we put in and the connections we made and the relationships we held and the adversity we faced, that's what we are, and not the number at the end of the tournament. And it was a great learning lesson as a youngster, um, you know, the athlete teaching the coach what was happening at the time.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

That's gold. And I'm going to come back to this evolution of me and Nelson, the person in that, but I but that comment just draws into your work now with regards to supporting other coaches. Do you think that that essence of that rounded developing a human being, do you is that a rare thing or is it a common thing these days in high performance sport?

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Uh I I would say things have really shifted to go, you know. Um if you go back probably the early 2000s and um you know 2010, early there, um you know, it was win at all costs and find a way. And um and that didn't always sit well with me. Um I really loved this idea of a higher purpose, you know, and and and this when you know Vic came in as our head coach of the national team, Victor Anfiloff, I really resonated with his concept of like higher purpose can equal higher performance. And I loved that idea as like, well, we're doing it to get the medal, but we're only getting the medal for the reason of to inspire other young kids. And so once they're inspired, then they'll do the development and they'll get the medals, and we're actually inspiring people to live great lives. And and and he sort of you know described it as well, we've both had these amazing bloody experiences in this sport, and we're here to help others to have some amazing experiences in this sport, you know, it's the vehicle to to to living a great life, and so um you know, he he offered that sort of purpose and and connection, and I really deeply connected, it relit a fire in me, and probably over time in in the coaching years of the 14 years or so I was a full-time coach, um I I probably lost a bit of that hunger and and passion in there for whatever reason. Um and yeah, in that um Rio cycle, um, yeah, it was really cool actually time where Vic sort of came in and and reset the system for me and re-inspired um the hunger and the purpose. And it was a really energizing time for me to for me, and now you know, working across all sports with high performance coaches, um yeah, I you know, coaching's hard, chico, you know, you know uh it's a lot of time and it's a lot of energy and it's a lot of sacrifice and decisions you've got to make, and um there's complaints and there's compliance and there's paperwork and there's leadership and there's teaching and there's like all these skills to learn and all this stuff going on. Um and and I am a believer, and I believe this is where you know, if we look at the whole high performance system, you know, you go to the AIS win well strategy, not saying win, and it's not just saying it's all you know, lollipops and puppy dogs, but it's saying people being at their best is going to be at the heart of performance. So let's get the whole picture right. Um, yeah, which is which is pretty cool, and and it is a shift in the whole system in the way um we're looking at things, you know, athlete well-being and engagement is bigger than ever. Um, you know, we're looking more closely. There's been really good research now into coach well-being. Yeah. You know, like are we looking after the people who are looking after the athletes? And right, what does this look like to be sustainable as a coach, to be your best when it matters most? Um, and that ain't happening if we ignore the person. I'm really I'm really optimistic and positive about the the shift that I've seen in that space, and probably in my nature to encourage and push coaches in that direction, anyway, just by my own values set.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And that win well strategy, it's relatively new. Yeah. How have you seen the rubber hit the road as far as the the machine, if you like, the boat is steering towards win at all costs, and as time evolves and systems mature, there's the attention to the human and saying, Well, we need to look after them. And so there's a okay, let's win well. There's going to be a shift in a different direction. Yeah. I've heard some talk of there's a bit of resistance from some of the old school ways, but I don't know for sure. How have you seen the because you can't leave one for the other? You can't just kind of go, well, let's just make it all about human development and not worry about the winning. So, how's how's that rubber hit the road?

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah, definitely some resistance to go. There's been people who are like, you know, um, it's the softer way and it's not the right way uh to do it. Um, you know, I've had coaches ask me, Mick, is it going too far in that direction and is it gonna swing back the other way eventually because it's not gonna get performance? Um my sort of view is that we're gonna be guided by the athletes coming through. There's a generation of young Australians coming through who are gonna be the next lot of high performance athletes. And it doesn't really matter what the coaches have valued in the past, what only matters is what they're gonna respond to. And I sense they're gonna respond to great care and purpose and value, and they want to know why they're doing things. They're not gonna blindly comply and just say, if you want me to put on a tuxedo and jump off the end of the jetty, then I'll do it. They're gonna say why. And and I think the coaches of the future are gonna be responding to the needs of the people coming through and the performance requirements that sit in front of there. Neither of those things can be ignored, never gonna be one or the other. They're gonna they're gonna meet beautifully at performance in the future.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

What are your thoughts around where you start that? A whole part of this ecosystem conversation is around their grassroots and a high performance are intricate intricately connected, even though at some stage operationally we've lost that. Yeah, but if we're looking at developing humans once they enter a high performance, is that too late? Is is there elements where the win-well strategy is reaching the grassroots? What have you seen there?

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Um, well, I don't pretend to be an expert in all of that space, and there are probably linkages in there that I don't know about. Chico, you know, my my role is pretty exclusively with high performance coaches in helping them be at their best. Um, you know, my my role now is to help them do their job well, coach well, teach well, lead well, hopefully leave a great legacy behind. So they're setting up systems for the future, you know, pathway systems, structures and cultural systems that people can thrive and come through after they're gone, and and then to support them for whatever their next role is in the world of high performance sport. Um and and there's a bit there, Chico, um, you know, my my boss Bill, who um he's a believer that the whole high performance system will be better off with more coaches in leadership positions, even if it's nothing leadership of sport and high performance sport and key decision making because they understand the context and the coal face and right and they can see the whole picture well. Um so there's a view there that while that's not dealing with them here and now, we're hoping we're building skills in our high performance coaches that if they end up in leadership positions as high performance managers or financial decision makers within the sport or cultural leaders, that they're able to support that really well because we reckon the grounding of coaching and the stresses and rigors of the coalface really will help them have great context for um better teams, better people, and better decision making in the system as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

100%. And that that really drives into the the principles around the samurai shift, what is it's called the samurai shift that we we are that we're using the art, the discipline to create leaders um beyond the athletic time. Are there within the systems and cultures that you speak of, is there is there scope to delve into the athlete who retires? Who are the ones who are going to become leaders because they're no longer athletes or coaches, but they still stay involved as opposed to in the days when it was, you know, win at all costs, often there was a churn and burn of athletes coming in. Yeah, yeah. But is it as we got this win well strategy and wanting our athletes to become leaders and our coaches to become leaders, is there a are there efforts towards keeping them involved once they retire?

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Um, yeah, we're working on an athlete to coach transition framework at the moment. Like, what could it look like if Chico's senses you might be within 12 months of retirement as athlete? Here's a you know a checklist to ask yourself these 10 questions and go like, am I ready and am I hungry? And and what might it look like if I wanted to transition and then what supports available to do that, specifically obviously looking at transition to to coaching, and not saying that's the only way you can uh you can lead an influence and have an impact on the community and and society. Um, one of the principles, you know, if we look at like skill acquisition or learning design, this is something you know I got from Ross Pinder, who's sort of a world expert in this space, I would say, um, and has had a massive influence on the Australian system. Um, he talks about this idea of like the more autonomy we can provide for our athletes in terms of decision making, and you know, even as simple as Chico, we're aiming for 10 efforts today. Are you are you up for that? And what might that look like today? Or are you ready to evolve from this drill to the next? Or Chico, what might the evolution be as we move from this to the next? Arming them with some of those decision-making skills, which has always been at the heart of beach volleyball people, right? You've got to travel the world and you've got to make decisions and you've got to own it, and you've got to manage finances and you, you know, there's all those beautiful life skills that has come with our sport. Um, that concept across all sports, you know, from a learning design perspective, if we're able to create that, those autonomous athletes who can function under pressure without being reliant on a coach all the time, we'll probably make great coaches and leaders in the future. Right. Now, there's a fair bit in there about you know motivation and and owning your journey and and uh performance under pressure as an athlete anyway, which I would you know encourage people to go down that path. Um, but what a cool skill set to leave people with as they move into the next parts of their life and and uh start to impact others.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Pressure is such an important part of the learning journey, isn't it? The whole how do you deal with different pressures in different situations? And you know, pressures we often, you know, um well some people try to avoid them. Within the pressures of the high performance model that you've seen. Have you seen pressure become destructive?

SPEAKER_02 18:30

I yes, and I can only I mean I can speak for myself, Chico, and say I've I've I think of myself as a good person, and I've probably had some horrendously bad coaching days when I was at my most stressed, you know, like um I I've lived it, you know, there's probably moments so I'm credibly not proud of in any way when I think, oh here I am as a you know, someone supporting high performance coaches. I I reckon half of the support I I can offer is the fact that I was coaching in my 20s, just making mistake after mistake after mistake. And and I would you know attribute a lot of that to to um not when you're at your best, but when you're at your stressed good person having a really bad day. Um you know, I've I've lived it, Chico. The um and and that's something you know really advocating with the um the current group of coaches is first thing is know yourself. Before you can lead others, you have to be able to lead yourself. And so we might need to know what might happen when you get a bit stressed and what might happen in conflict and what things might we need to be aware of um with you in relationship with others and your emotional and interactional intelligence and all those sort of things. Um, the first part is let's get to know ourselves before we start trying to fix others. Um fantastic. Because of those pressures and stresses, which are unavoidable, they're coming, you know. There's no coaching job without a bit of stress and pressure, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

And is that work ongoing as far as because it's easy to be in a you know workshop and hear that you've got to know thyself. But is there elements within the program and the structures that are set up now to take people on that journey? So it becomes quite a pathway of their own reckoning.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

Um, I mean, the the I talked earlier about the old scholarship coach program. We've got an equivalent version of that now, it goes a couple of years, and that's one of the really cool things. Um, you know, I've got five coaches in in five different sports that I'm I've got a you know, sort of like their learning leader, actually, because we're based in the National Institute Network, the NIN we our nickname is the ninjas. Yeah, you got your ninja, mix my ninja. Um and so I'll I've got those five coaches that I'm responsible for. Now we'll get the group of 30 together six times over two years to workshop and a bit of education and content. And there's a nice bit about connecting, so they've got a network of people as they go through their coaching journey that they can lean on outside of any formal structures and outside of their own sport that they can ring and go, like, hey, what would you do with this problem? Yeah. Um, so there's some of those formalities, but I've found it invaluable, Chico, to just spend time with people in their environment and go like, ah, that's what it looks like playing out in real time. That's what that relationship looks like for you between you and athlete that might be a challenge, and you get to see it with a fresh set of eyes, with no idea about any of the technical, tactical stuff. So don't need to come in with any views or opinions about if they're getting it right or wrong, but just get to look at the bits and pieces outside of all the technical and tactical. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

How long has this program been going for?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Uh, we're in our second group of coaches currently. They'll finish at the end of this year. Um, and so there'll be a new group rolling out. So, in in that group, Zunks is in that group right now. So he's on his two year learning journey and he's um yeah, in his high performance coaching in this current group. Now, yeah. So you still got your foot in the foot in the sand, so to speak. Well, loosely connected through through short my connection with Shoddy a bit and uh a little bit with Zunks as well. And actually one of our other um developmental programs for coaches Josh Slack is involved in as well. So I'll see Josh a few times a year, which is nice.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Nice. So from your experience of working across a broad range of sports, yeah, what separates the coaches who produce elite performers from coaches who produce elite people?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Um I I don't necessarily separate those two things, other than I think the elite person is more likely to be a sustainable performer, would be the way that I would think about that. You know, um without a high functioning human being, performance won't have any sustainability, would be my view that eventually my needs aren't getting met, or um, you know, I'll fall off the well-being cliff myself. You know, the view would be, and this is you know, this is the big shift we sort of talked about, is like how do we build the whole person so they can sustainably be at their best? And you know, there would obviously everyone would have seen in the media there was you know a period of time there where the former athlete was found in the hotel room or on the plane, and you know, the Grant Hackett had a very difficult period in his life, it would seem, and and there was high profile in the media, and you know, people sort of said, you know what, enough's enough, like this isn't okay. It isn't okay to go and win the medal, and then life turned into a disaster. We've got to do this athletic journey better. I reckon some of those really difficult things to see, you know, God, they would, you know, very public and really tricky stuff for the poor people going through it at the time. Um, I reckon that was the disruption and impetus to say, like, hey, I reckon there's a better way. Um, we've got to be better.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Yeah. Yeah, it really you can see the shift in becoming more based on humanity and the humans involved. And it sounds like a wonderful thing that you're doing to be able to help those coaches because they're often the coaches aren't just teaching skills, they're also helping people through the the highs and lows of performance and all that goes with it.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

To go, my my my boss Bill, who you know was a very successful um coach in his own right and technical director for Triathlon Australia. He says, and it's not his quote, but he he really loves it. He said, you know, a good coach can change your result, and a great coach can change a life. And I'm like, yes, that that really speaks to to me. And and that's challenging because you know, interpersonal boundaries are getting trickier and harder, and you know, it it's a complex world for coaching now. Um, and they need help and support to to navigate that safely for themselves, safely for the athlete, and then also um produce success, which happens right at the edge of you know human capability and interrelational capability, you know, that's not an easy space to get to, and they they need help to be able to get to those safe uh those spaces safely.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Speaking a lot to culture, and I know you spoke a bit earlier about the development of culture and system. And when people use the word culture in sport, what do you think their meaning and what what does that mean for you?

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Um well, um to go. I mean, my view is everyone has a culture, it's just the things that happen every day. What are the the norms, what are the routines and rituals that you live every day, and that's that group's culture, whether it's defined and written on a wall, whether there was a beautiful values process to get to that point in time, there are a set of um behavioral norms which are culture. Um, some people have actively pursued a particular way of doing things, um, and others organically find themselves in an amazing cultural space just by their nature and way of doing things. Um I am a real believer that you know there's no template, there's no algorithm that every coach should follow and every environment should follow. You know, every coach has got to know their way. You know, if I try to be Chico, I will fail badly. And Chico, if you try and be me, you will fail badly. You know, we've got to work out who we are and what's important to us and how that's then gonna guide how we're gonna lead, which will have an influence on people and culture and the behaviors that have become the norms every day. What I do know, Chico, is I've felt it and I've seen it at its very best when the purpose and the goals or the vision and the behavioral norms are all in alignment. That's when I see it working at its best. When they're like there's a simplicity, there's no internal tension in people feeling like I'm supposed to tell someone off because they're going against the value, or there's a really tricky decision to make, and I'm not sure what to do. No, we know what to do with that tricky decision because our purpose is clear and where we're trying to get to is clear, and and the things that we need to do to bring that to life are difficult but obvious. So we're just going to go with what we need to do, even though it's difficult.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

And from what you've seen, has that been just inherent in the humans who are doing it, or has that been worked on, theorized, uh, you know, structured so that it is on the same page, so to speak?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Um yes, it's definitely coming to life in terms of let's help people who some are you know naturally gifted in this space, Chico, and you just get out of their way and you just let them sprinkle their magic and off they go. And and others need a lot of support in terms of you know how to build a psychologically safe space where people feel okay to go like Chico, I've made a mistake. I don't feel safe to tell you that I don't have to hide my mistakes to you. Um some people need a lot of help in that, and others are just naturally gifted at um at leading in some of those spaces. So so we we are aware and endeavoring to help people to lead um culturally safe spaces, to lead performance, um, to teach a generation of people to be able to receive difficult feedback and give it.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

And is that because that requires a real surrender, you know. You think a lot of coaches coming through have have built their ego or have built their sense of identity around, you know, I am an athlete and you know, this is what I do. So ego becomes quite strong. You put that into a coach, and then this is my way, and so there's going to be a kind of attachment to to it being their way. So, in order to start talking about my faults now as a coach, uh I'm assuming there's gonna be some difficult conversations. Have you found that that is uh becoming increasingly available within the conversations we have with coaching, or is there still a strong element of ego in there?

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Um, I think things are shifting in a really good direction, Chico. You know, the the very best coaches that I've seen, you know, if we think about like the summit program that the AIS runs is like a lot of the national head coaches, and they get together in their communities of practice and and they they share their ideas and their worries and their thoughts, and they borrow ideas from each other and they'll they'll gather once a year. It's these beautiful communities of practice that come together with this idea. We're all connected, even though we're in our own sports, we're actually connected and we can share vulnerabilities and and our wins and our losses, and and I think the the world is definitely heading in that direction. This idea of the best coaches are lifelong learners. Yeah, they're not experts who know it all, and so therefore I'm fixed and I'm finished. The best coaches are evolving with their athletes. Um, and I I'm really seeing that, and and it sometimes that needs a little shake up in terms of you know building in healthy self-reflective practices and building in healthy feedback loops so that they're making decisions with accurate data, not not data of worry or data of I've shut off information coming in. I'm responding to the things that are in front of me. Um, so sometimes that needs a little shake to to help with healthy reflective practices and making sure they've got accurate feedback. But I'm really good, the best coaches and the best leaders are lifelong learners, and I'm seeing that in our in our current best coaches right now.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Nice. So let's draw our attention and focus in on the Australian Beach volleyball ecosystem. Yeah, you're doing amazing work within the world of supporting coaches in different sports, and those coaches are going to go into their state programs and national programs, where there's is it state or national or a bit of both, the coaches that you're working with?

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Mostly national? Both, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

So those athletes are going to be responsible for the young athletes who are coming through. From your perspective, at the one who's helping the coaches provide for the athletes, yeah. What would you say to the young coaches and the grassroots coaches and the ones who are preparing those young athletes for this pathway? Is there ways where we can connect your knowledge and your experience and flip that into the grassroots so that when the athletes do come through that they're better prepared, whether it's physically, mentally, emotionally, to enter into that pathway and therefore go on that journey?

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Yeah. Um Chico, one of the in the um uh Australian Sports Commission, there's a commun, uh I'm gonna set this wrong title wrong here. Forgive me, uh, community coaching and officiating department. One of the really cool things they've done, and I borrow their material often, is they've set up some really cool resources that anyone in any sport, so I might only be coaching an under, not only, sorry, I might be coaching an under 17 state team. That's an important job, not only, that is an important job. Um, and they've then set up little snippets and resources so you can jump on their website, you jump on YouTube, and you might put in asking um great questions, and they'll give you a five-minute video on asking great questions, and you're like, ah, what a good prompt. And it might, it's it's the start of a learning journey to go, like, ah, I wonder how else I could research this. There might be something about creating a psychologically safe environment. There might be something about athlete autonomy and motivation, and so there's all these little snippets. Now, that's online resources, so it's not delivered in a one-on-one, but really good stuff in there that I'm like, oh, there's a really cool bit about conflict management. I wonder how I could borrow some of that. So um, while I'm probably working more at a one-on-one level with high performance coaches, there's some really cool resources that have been developed out there that any sport could go and tap into and go, like, oh, I'm responsible for 20 coaches in a junior beach volleyball state team. I'm just going to borrow some of those resources and start to feed them in and trip feed that development. So with the idea, the better leadership experience for the coaches, the better experience for the athletes that they're empowered, motivated, and hungry to come back and the ultimate goal to go, I want to play your sport again next year. You know, like I'm a life now. I love that so much. I mean, like those are the experiences we want to create.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Because that's a really solid conversation going on now as far as the burnout of young athletes and the experiences that they're having, and whether they burn out from a sport because they had a bad experience from a bad coach. It's it's or whether they just get burnt out by the actual high performance and the seriousness and the pressures of parents and coaches and so on. So it's a I'd be really curious to know how well that's being up taken uh and and its delivery. Um, because this is the first I've heard about it, and it sounds like a wonderful initiative.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Yeah. Um well, I again I can only speak from my own experiences. Um, volleyball Australia over the past few years have contracted me to come in and um run some mentoring programs for our junior state team leaders, as in, like, I've got a position of responsibility, and I've um I'm I've got 10 or 20 coaches to look after, and the sports calling me a mentor because I'm the wisest, oldest head in the room. Um, how do I actually do that well? And so um, you know, Nam got me to come and do some um mentorship training for those people in positions of leadership to have better leadership experiences and better development for the coaches below them. Um so that's been nice, which is sort of on the back of the um, I've been given the great pleasure of leading the national mentorship program. So we've got sort of 42 of Australia's best coaches from all sports, you know, our coaching elders, the knowledge holders of Australian sport, are mentoring those who are in the hot seat right now. Um, so you know, I've got an Olympic campaign and a or a paralympic medal sitting there waiting for me in two years if I can get it right. And so we're connecting in those who've been there and done it and been in the hot seat in the past to um support those people, it might be from a well-being, it might be a career transition, it might be difficult conversations with an athlete or managing up to um to management. So, yeah, there's this really cool bit of mentorship um going on at the high performance level. Um, and I've had the yeah, the the pleasure of offering some of that below in the um through volleyball Australia and the through the state team systems.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Fantastic. And what do you think young feature volleyball coaches need the most these days?

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Um I would ask that question to the athletes first and let them tell us what what's the next and what's future coaching look like uh in in their sport. Um I I know um this is not what the athletes need, but this maybe is what the system needs. Like I reckon we we um crying out for some more female leaders, um, and then opportunities for young female coaches to to get experiences and thrive and develop and and uh and make their way through to um yeah, whether it's pathway or national team, you know, um, I reckon that's a really important bit. You know, at a high performance level, Chico, the the data's horrendous. You know, I think like 10% of our Olympic coaches were female um in those two cycles. It's horrendously bad at the top, and that is not a lack of skill, that is a systematic problem. And I reckon um beach volley would be well set to to buck the trend and go like actually, let's create space for for female leaders to to come through and lead the sport.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

I think it's a global thing too. Sarah Montanelli or Monte is is really trying to drive that message um based out of Austria. Um series. Oh, absolute legend of a human being. And um, yeah, wish her all the best with her doing that. Because it is a it's an important thing that the the female has an amazing ability to communicate. Um, and uh yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

You go just if I if I just jump like I'm just going back to what you asked, what might um a young coach need who's coming through the system now? They tend to need permission to fail. Oh, I love that because um they don't always know when it's safe to fail. And and was one of the wisest swimming coaches uh I talked to, and he said this to me, he said Mick, we preach in all of our coaching to be process focused. We always say it in coach. It's a very common thing in coaching to say, be process focused athlete. Yeah, but only after enough time of trying to fill up our own trophy cabinets as a coach do we start doing it ourselves. That's when coaching mastery can happen. When we stop trying to fill our own cabinet and we become obsessed with our coaching process and not with the outcome because we say process focus, but in reality, we're just shitting ourselves about filling up our own trophy cabinet as coaches and proving our worth. Right. There's a really important bit, I reckon, in the developing coach there to know when it's safe to fail and have permission and to go through that learning in a really safe way, to go like, oh, I made a mistake as a coach. Awesome. I can learn from that with my athletes as I go and develop, rather than I hope I'm perfect and I get a result, therefore I am, or I didn't get a result, therefore I'm not. To remove some of that unsafe to fail and need for result performance all the time, that can be an inhibitor to learning and to becoming a great coach, which takes years and years and years to move towards great coaching. You know, there's no one's born a great coach. Some people have some great characteristics and traits to get them started, but you learn and you fail and you learn and you fail. And young coaches need to know, they need to be given permission to experiment and fail for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

So maybe one of those video resources on YouTube could be the Ted Lasso series. Have you watched Ted Lasso?

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

No, I love that. That's really important because as athletes, as a coach, you often say, hey, it's okay to fail, and some athletes will come and they've got this fear of making a mistake, and it takes a while to let that surrender, and you're totally right, it transitions into the coaching world as well. You've seen the Australian beach volleyball high performance coaching philosophy and culture go from the early days of you know, we got a medal and now we've got to get the next one, into now looking at it from a supportive role. How have you seen the philosophy within the Australian Beach Volleyball High Performance change and mature over these this time?

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Um well, Chico, I I don't pretend to have my finger on the pulse and know everything that I need to know where things are at now. You know, my last year of full-time coaching was 2021. Uh there was, you know, um, I I felt like I had my finger on the pulse. I'd worked with development athletes and I'd worked with national teams athletes and supported the men and the women. And um, you know, the when uh the guys qualified, and you know, it's like, oh, Damo and Chris, what a cool thing, you know, like that the men are back at the Olympic Games. Well, that's been a weight that's been carried by a few people for a while, yeah. Some much more than myself. Um, but there was a real sense of happiness there, and then T and M Fay end up on the podium, right? And and and I I got to the end of that year and went, if that was my coaching race, then I can walk away happy. From starting week one with Nat and finishing with Telequa Maria Faye on the podium and the boys back at the games, and I can I can step away. So I don't pretend to not um have any concept of um that the intricacies of the philosophy and where things are at, probably since 2021. Um yeah, you know, I've seen some um amazing times and some amazing leaders, you know. I spoke about Alamau on week one and um, you know, Victor re reigniting a fire in me and shifting something in me with it with that deep sense of purpose, um, you know, and working under Shoddy, um, which has been a fascinating relationship. Chico, you know, he and I connect in different worlds now and in this coach and coach development space and working on projects together, and which is really cool because we've known each other for such a long time. And you know, there was once upon a time where he was my direct manager as the head coach of the national team, and now we we connect in in a really different way. So the answer in short is Chico, I don't know where things are at. Um, I can tell you about my coaching journey and when it maybe didn't feel so great, and and the fires that got re-ignited in me, and um you know the challenges of of COVID and a once full centralized program to now having two hubs for one for men and one for women. And um I only experienced that for a short time, so um best to speak to the people in the know about anything post-2021, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Yeah, great. So what do you think high performance sport ultimately is there to produce?

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Well I think achieving really difficult things is important, performance is important because it puts a spotlight on people who've done amazingly difficult things. And the the hope or the opportunity is for that to start a process of inspiration for someone else to say, like, ah, there might be something in this healthy lifestyle, learning how to interact and collaborate with others in in ways that you might not, if you didn't get involved in a team sport, or to push yourself to the edge of your physical or emotional capabilities in an individual sport. Um, one of the coaches I work with, Chico Brett, um, very six Brett Aiken, very successful cycle. You know, Olympic gold, silver, and bronze medalists, and and um worked with him in his coaching days. He talked about um when he was about eight or nine years old and seeing the Olympic Games, and he talked about an accumulation of inspirational moments. He met his hero and he saw it on the TV, and then he got on the track and he got to compete and race, and then he was in a training group, and he like he talked about this building of inspirational moments, an accumulation of inspiration, what had happened to him from you know seven years old to about 15 years old, and um you know it set it set a fire and a path in him. And stories like that make me optimistic and hopeful to go like if if we do the thing in the spotlight really well, it could hopefully inspire a generation of people to go, like, oh, that's a worthwhile pursuit, you know, put on a national team uniform and that sense of pride and connection, connection to the whole country, and you know, uniting communities that sit behind that one athlete on the team. There's actually a whole community, a family of people behind them. You know, you I haven't listened to the podcast, Chico, but I know you had Damo on. There would have been a few thousand people feel riding every single point of that journey with him qualifying and then at the Olympic Games, you know, like what an amazing impact moment. The person in the spotlight has, but there's actually a big push of people that helped him to get financially and emotionally, and you know, the whole technically and the whole thing, you know, it's um you hope the high performance sport unites and connects a community of people. Um, and I reckon the world needs that more than ever now, Chico.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

I love that. And and let's build that link between that sentiment, which is fantastic, and the conversations now, you know, being sporty with Libby Trickett and the conversations around retention. Craig Carraher, the volleyball Australia's president, has recently uh made some comments around the need for retention in sport. So if we have this inspiration of people playing, and then people are playing, but then at that junior youth level, they're not playing. I know you're operating in a different realm with the high performance, but is there any pieces of the puzzle that you think could be improved upon or focused on to help build that retention? Because obviously we want a healthier community and culture, as Lou Borden said last episode.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Yeah. Um, I've tell you what, I'm really optimistic to go. Um, so Volleyball, New South Wales, have got me to come and support some of their coaching endeavours and some of their leaders. Um, and so I went over to Sydney um a couple of months ago, and I went out to it, must have been their junior state team trials. And I was like, How good is this? There were kids like court after court of kids trialing and playing, and I was like, Oh, the sport is really healthy. Yeah, like in I just looked at Sydney and went, Wow, the sport is really healthy. And and you know, we were talking about how we're gonna do this better and how we're gonna coach better, and how but I just stopped and looked back because I hadn't been around that space for a really long time, Chico. Like it's been a long time since I've watched a junior state team do anything. Um there was just kids after kids, every age group was overloaded, courts overflowing with kids trying to get into state teams, which means they're all playing in school and they're all playing in clubs, and there's an enthusiasm or a groundswell. And so I just that was a really optimistic moment for me to look at and go, oh, great. You know, you want a healthy sport, you want a healthy sporting system, which you know, not everyone's built for high performance sport. Not everyone uh has that hunger, not everyone has that skill set in them to pursue that, and they're not supposed to, but everyone should have a great experience that wants them to come back and have another go at whatever level is the right level for them, is the hope and the endeavor.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yeah, and I think the opportunities to be able to play the game for the sake of the game, because not everyone's gonna make the state team, and not everyone's gonna do that. And that's that's fine, but you still don't want them to walk away bruised. Well, they're gonna get bruised, but you know, they don't want them to walk away broken, yes, they can still enjoy the game and what the game has for them, whether it's volleyball or tennis or soccer, whatever that vehicle is. Um, but I think there has been a long history of you know, you're not in the team anymore and get discarded and not really cared about beyond that experience. But yeah, I I I think um Baz Webmire has a has a lot to do with the resurgence of volleyball in New South Wales. In my day, New South Wales grassroots was kind of a bit of a dog's breakfast.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Um, and and Baz and then the and volleyball New South Wales beyond Baz has um really taken on with a focus on community and building up their leaders down there. It's great to see.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

You go one of the things I've experienced recently is um spending time in other young sports, immature sports, which beach volleyball was once upon a time. You know, all of a sudden, sudden your sports got a spot at the Olympic Games, and everything changes because there's money and leadership and power and people, and there's all this stuff going on. And I'm seeing that now working with coaches in skate and surfing and sport climbing. And I'm looking at them going like, ah, you're now going through the Olympic shift and change. Right. And one of the things like it's really hard for the young maturing sports is the sport existed before the national team was trying to get Olympic results. Yep, and for some, that's been a lifestyle sport. Yeah, and so I'm looking, I'm like, ah, they're in that moment where the national team's almost at times trying to get a result in spite of the community. And I've seen that shift in beach volleyball over the years, like, actually, that's not the way now. You know, what do I what does it look like from the outside now? It looks like everyone in volleyball wants the national team to be successful, and the national team wants to do it because of the community and not in spite of the community. I reckon that's the best way, and I reckon I've seen that now in now your sports at the Olympics, and now this money and decisions, and it's like, oh, hang on, this purity that we once lived has shifted, and they're going through things that I saw beach volleyball go through 20, 30 years ago, and I'm like, oh shit, I think I can help here. I think I can normalize this process.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

This is so funny. I had a conversation with my barber not too long ago, who is a uh a very, very old school skate guy. He currently makes skating wheels. I wish I had the brand of the wheel, I could give him a shout out. But he was uh talking about the shift that he saw in skate when it became an Olympic sport, and he could see that exact kind of culture, high performance battle and conflict, the tension there, he was living it because it was raw, and it really is a powerful thing to be to have had the experience that you've had, and then look at well, how can we do that? Because ultimately you want the whole community, you want everybody to be holding these kids up, but they're on there is an element of them having to separate because they've got to focus on the external drive. It's a really interesting pressure and dynamic. How would you guide them in in three points? Your top three lessons in that.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

If we wanted to remove it, Chico, just remove all money from sport, and then you know, the purity is is at its absolute best, you know, like yeah, but but you know, thankful for the opportunities for people to travel the world and wear uniforms and have great support from coaches and strength and conditioning people and psychologists, and you know, you get whole service teams built around just channeling their focus onto one or two or three people. Um what's your question, Chico? I've lost it in my ramble.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

If you were to use take the volleyball lessons that you've learned, the beach volleyball lessons, yeah. The journey you went through culture versus high performance, yeah, to then pass on to skate and these new emerging sports, what would your top three lessons be?

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Um, first bit is normalize that there's going to be tension and not everyone's going to be on board immediately. That's just going to be part of the deal, is there will be tension and it won't be perfect for everyone, and it will take time to evolve. So don't panic that it's not perfect straight away. Just give it time and give it patience and let it work itself out over time. You're going to have to hold an uncomfortable tension in the early days of it because it's change and change is uncomfortable. Yeah, it's going to be a real bumpy ride as you go through. Um, take a long-term view of it. Don't rush to fix it all immediately. Know that you'll get someone bored with the change that's occurring early, and others you won't, and that's okay, that's gonna be part of it. But you know, if you try and chase all of the wins on day one, you're guaranteed to fail and feel disappointed. Phase it, don't rush it, give it time, get people on board. Um, it will take time to shift and make change. And the third one might be to build the plans, not for the people, but with them. Don't rush, that's goal, get it done. Take your time and be patient and let it organically get built by the people that might be resistant if in the change, if they don't feel like they've actually got a bit of say and influence on.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

And I think also understanding of the different pressures that the system, the program is under now, because I know with the volleyball world, we the the people who weren't in the system, we didn't know a lot of the pieces of the puzzle. And so you that's where a lot of the conflict lives and resides and magnifies because then you've got Chinese rumors and you know, he said, she said kind of shit.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

And and like, you know, there's no greater stress around that than like selection policies. You know, like I look at that and I think, oh god, what a great complexity! Like to get the right person at the start line wearing the Australian uniform ready to go. Yeah, how do you get to that point and not disenfranchise people? Um, you know, how do you do that and get to a place, you know, and and what I'm sort of saying to coaches is if you don't feel like you've got the right person at the start line, don't complain about the selection policy after the decision. Your job is to lead and influence early and influence what the selection policy is as it's getting built. Don't complain about it after the selections are happened, you know, and that's the not the teaching part of coaching, but the leading part of coaching, which is ever growing in the responsibilities that the people are carrying now. That's gold, mate.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Does elite sport, does high performance programs, pathways, do they have any responsibility for the athlete beyond their competitive days?

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Um Chico, the answer is structurally yes. So if you're if you're fitting into a um a national team somewhere or even an institute, you know, if you're in the Victorian Institute of Sport and you're coming through, you know, whatever hockey, whatever it is, um they've structurally built in athlete well-being and engagement support after your transition moment. So if you get cut or you choose to leave, there's, and I don't know all the details, like roughly it might be here's six months for Chico who's just chosen to retire or been exited from this particular program to support with whatever career transition. There tends to be um some physical support available as well, like you're leaving with an injury, so you still have access to physio or strength and conditioning gym, you know, might be available. And and for some that's inappropriate, they're like, hey, this is a separation moment. I'm just moving on and on. Um I'm gonna just fly the nest and do my thing. Um, but structurally, yeah, that I mean every sport has some sort of athlete well-being and engagement person, just depending on the size of the sport, they're not all full-time and you know how many athletes, and so you know, some might be dealing in an institute with 120 athletes, and others might be dealing with 10 athletes total. Um, and so not everyone's sort of built in full-time, but the you know, the system's set up for that. You know, if someone has mental health trouble now, there's the mental health referral network, you can get free access to support athletes, um, um, categorized athletes is the way they say it. Chico, you know, like you've got to be categorized to access the support because they need to draw a line somewhere. And then the other one's the career practitioner referral network. So if Chico is exiting um Sport of Beach volleyball from the national team, you get access to three or four appointments with a career specialist to support with your resume build and your life skills and your interview skills and the and the thing that helps you move into the the next thing, which sits sort of after the support you've received during your athlete life through your AW and E person. Um, yeah, it's it's structurally shifted. That's fantastic. I mean, Chico, personally, I feel incredibly um grateful for the connections that I've been able to keep with some of the athletes that I worked with afterwards. And I saw Talekwa in the gym this morning. She's in Adelaide for a few days, and she's gonna come over for dinner at my place next Tuesday. And Hodgy still lives at the back of Mum and Dad's in the granny flat. Um, I got to go to Maria Faye's wedding. You know, I feel incredibly grateful for some of the connections. You know, Chris McHugh's little fella and my little fella are friends. I I'm incredibly grateful for some of the relationships which go beyond the performance days. Um, and those athletes who've who've been kind enough to keep me in their lives is is so um incredibly valuable to us.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

I think you've been a big part of changing their lives and helping their journey. So it's uh I think that's a that's the wonderful thing about the coach athlete dynamic and energy. Mate, if everyone, if every coach in Australia listened to this conversation, yeah, what's one thing you'd hope they'd never forget?

SPEAKER_02 58:10

That that learning, lifelong learning is part of coaching and getting good at it. And you don't have to be perfect to start with. And mistakes are part of it, and mistakes are part of learning, and you need systems and people around you to keep you safe during that learning period of of uh of coaching, no different than athletes do when they're going through their learning experiences.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Nice. Final question for you, Mick. You have one button to push, and that button is going to improve the Australian Beach volleyball ecosystem at whatever level you choose. What would that button be?

SPEAKER_02 58:53

I don't know the answer to that, Chico. I would hand that button back to someone who's in the hot seat right now and say, you you tell me what it is. Um the button is a deep sense of connection between those who are in the performance hot seat right now, coaches and athletes, and their community of people. Now that's families and the people they played down to 15-state team with and the coach they had in high school, I would push that sense that everyone is lifting up those people, even when they're no longer connected to them. You know, if you ask an athlete like who was your first coach at high school, they'll be able to tell you. Because those connections matter. And so for those people below them to feel connected to the journey, even when they're no longer physically connected to, you know, they might be wearing a national team uniform. You know, it matters that all of the guys that played in the Pirates indoor ABL teams feel connected to Mark Nicolades's journey. And everyone that um you know spent a few days with Taleka at um Holland High School feels connected to her journey, even though she's uh you know doing amazing things at the Olympic Games. I reckon everyone feels better for that sense of community and sense of um everyone pushing you along when those results and the pressures and stresses come on the those in the hot seat.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

I love that, Mick. I love that. Mick, I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. It's been far too long, and I really want to thank you for your insights into the high performance world, and thank you for what you're doing within the high performance world and to be able to share the the evolution of philosophy going from win at all cost and to and to um to let us know what's happening in that space of you know athlete first. And I love that last point, that last button, and um because it goes beyond just uh you know uh you know, fix the national tour, or whatever it is. So so thank you so much for your insights, Mick, and and thanks so much for what you're doing in the world of coaching high performance.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Chico, my pleasure. I think I've got the best job in the world, mate. I just hang out with coaches all day and and uh shoot the shit and and have coffee and help them out. And it is literally the best job in the world, mate. I'm having a great time, so thanks for having me. Oh, much appreciated. Thanks again, Mick.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Bye now. It's time now to enter a new phase of the samurai shift. A phase I'm calling fracture. Here we'll look at the things that have not worked for us in the past, not to demonize, but to acknowledge, embrace, and explore new ways of moving forward together. We're going to start off by going back to the grassroots. And in the next episode I'll be joined by the current Fig Feature director, Alli. I hope you'll join us then.