Episode # 9 Lauren Soderberg

What does a sporting system lose when too few women are given the opportunity to coach at its highest level?

In the final episode of The Samurai Shift’s Fracture Arc, Peter “Chico” Jones is joined by Lauren Soderberg — Australia’s first female Olympic beach volleyball coach and an internationally experienced high-performance coach, coach developer and consultant.

Lauren’s journey has taken her from Australia to Vanuatu, Denmark and high-performance environments around the world. Along the way, she has seen vastly different approaches to coaching, culture, parenthood, athlete voice and the development of coaches themselves.

Together, Peter and Lauren explore why women remain significantly underrepresented in high-performance coaching, the hidden barriers within the coaching pathway, and why the issue goes far beyond quotas or representation.

The conversation examines talent identification, maternity and re-entry, sustainability, the “leaky pipeline” of female coaches, and the importance of creating environments in which the best coaches — regardless of gender — can develop, gain experience and thrive.

They also explore a larger question emerging throughout this season:

Are we developing coaches to fit existing systems, or designing systems that allow great coaches to emerge?

As the Fracture Arc draws to a close, Lauren’s perspective invites us to look beyond who currently holds coaching positions and ask something deeper:

Who has been given the opportunity to become good enough to compete for them?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

High performance is shaped not only by athletes but by the coaches who guide them. Yet women remain significantly underrepresented in elite coaching. In this episode, I'm joined by Australia's first female Olympic beach volleyball coach, Lauren Soderberg. Together we'll explore coaching pathways, hidden barriers, missed talent, and what sporting systems lose when too few women are given the opportunity to lead. Here's my conversation with Lauren Soderbergh. Well, here we are at episode number nine of the Samurai Shift, and this one closes out the fracture part of our exploration into Australian beach volleyball. And I am very pleased to welcome Lauren Soderbergh, who is Australia's first woman Olympic beach volleyball coach, and has gone on to do some amazing things in the world of coach development. Your international coach instructor and a whole wealth of experience when it comes to laying out and supporting coaches in their journey. So I'm very pleased to welcome you, Lauren. So welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Thanks so much, Chico. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Now, mate, you you became Australia's first female coach, coaching beach volleyball in the Rio 2016 Olympic Games with Maria Fay and Nikki Laird. When you look back at that now, the first female coach, do you see that as a personal achievement or do you see it as saying something about the system itself?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

I think a little bit of both. Like I'm I'm really proud of the work that we put in, and also I guess from a from a personal perspective, the the work I put into developing as a coach in the many years prior to that as well. But I'm really proud of that team and you know the efforts we put in over these years to make that happen. It was also really challenging, you know, to be. It's always hard to be the first. So there's a lot of lumps and bumps along the way to get to that position as well. So yeah, I think a little bit of both.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah, we'll dive into that a bit later on, but let's go backwards a bit because when you took over the Venoatu program around 2008 to 2013, Venoatu women had virtually no world ranking. And then they climbed the ladder to international success, securing multiple parody and finishes and and medals. What did that experience teach you about what can be achieved with very little that maybe some established programs overlook?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Hmm. I think look, I went into that program really eyes wide open, knowing that it was going to be a very evolutionary journey. Like when I took up that um position, we went over there just to see if they could play because there was a small international grant given by the IOC. And I went over there with Steve Anderson, who was still um contracted to coach in Australia at the time. And I was offered the opportunity to take up that role. And, you know, the very first training session, um, I only found out halfway through the training session that one of the young like women in the team was a mother, and she was breastfeeding in the uh the house on the other side of the stadium. And I thought, goodness me, why does this girl keep leaving halfway through training? We'll be talking, she'll go disappear. And you know, just such an interesting and eye-opening journey. And and really the first time um I'd tried to sit down and look at things from a cultural perspective as well, to go, how do we help shift this program forward? And we want to achieve, you know, these girls have dreams of Olympic success and dreams of international volleyball representation and wanted to represent their countries. But they had so many other uh, I guess, complexities around that environment that it was really there was no prescriptive path forward. It was one that needed to be developed and and worked together on and something that we needed to get the community on board. And, you know, what started with uh we'd like to win shiny medals became, you know, how do we help facilitate women as role models in this community and how can we amplify these girls' journey to help have a better impact on the community as well as you know, through volleyball. So it was a really powerful journey and it was five years of you know that climb from I think we're around 350th in the world when we started, um, and all the way up to uh top 10 finish at the world championships in 2013. So yeah, a really incredible journey.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Well, what do you reckon the key ingredients were for you there?

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Uh failing forward. No, like resilience, resilience and problem solving, I think was the biggest thing. Like there was no clear-cut answer to anything. So everything we had to look at. If we don't have equipment, what do we do? If we don't have finance, what do we do? If we don't have you know the ability to go on tour, how are we going to improve and what can we do in our environment? And what support can we get along the way? Who can we bring on this journey? How can we help overcome some of the barriers that were there in the country for women in particular at the time? Um, there was a lot of challenges around the program and from a you know, I guess, man-woman perspective as well. So we had to, you know, get husbands, boyfriends, chiefs on board, lots of meetings to help change the way you know that women were viewed, and and that sport in particular wearing um culturally appropriate outfits at the time was really challenging because obviously beach volleyball pre-2012, we had very constraint bikini requirements and those allowances that we have today were not there. So trying to train the girls into wearing something that was quite revealing for them and their culture, but also to prepare the community to accept that this was their professional uniform and this is something that they had to do. But when we were on Ireland, that they would respect the local culture and wear something that was appropriate for you know their culture as well, so they could be proud and not feel embarrassed of what they were trying to achieve, but also trying to achieve for their families to you know to keep people that could financially support themselves and improve their literacy and become ambassadors, you know, of their sport. So yeah, it was it was something I think problem solving was the key to that.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

And you and strong on the cultural part, I remember my time with Steve Anderson and when he was scouting for teams, that the culture of where that team was coming from was a really big piece of the puzzle as far as what are the things that make them tick, uh you know, positive and negative. I remember a conversation with you in China, and we were walking down to the courts, and and and you said, Chico, I'm finding it really difficult because if these women lose, they go back to the island, the place that's been voted the most idyllic place in the world. So they go back to this, oh yeah, it's okay, we're losing. You know, how how do we find leverage in this? And uh culture becomes a really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Was that a was that a difficult journey culturally to kind of help them to it had it had a lot of challenges, like a lot of um really difficult challenges, but as well, it was equally parts like for every little step we took forward, it was absolutely amazing and the growth over the time was incredible. And that was it was almost like the the little wins that you get feel like huge wins. So when you're able to see, you know, husbands down the court now supporting and coming home, the community all there well, not coming home, like when you're leaving, like waving these girls on, and you come back and they're on a billboard and things like that. Like such huge steps forward and huge wins that we, you know, I don't think though the gravity of that is the exact same in the Australian context, whereas over there it was very palpable. The the steps forward we were taking were incredible. Um, and you know, there would always be these little steps backward as well along the way where you'd have hiccups or you know, just some problems pop up. But yeah, it was very, very important. And, you know, like I said, I was going in eyes wide open, but you don't know what you don't know. And you know, what frames my coaching now around cultural appropriateness and how I address that got it's all learned through those experiences of having to figure out how do you've how do you navigate in this space that you don't know and they are the experts in. This is their culture, and I'm a guest in this space, but I'm also a leader in this space.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

So you have to dance between the two worlds of being, I guess, very humble and knowing nothing, but also trying to guide and shift towards a goal that we've collectively agreed on so it becomes this real power share. Whereas I think, you know, going into that, I just had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

And do you think that experience changed your perception of what high performance actually is?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Um, yes, absolutely. Like what it can look like and how different it can be. And I think how place-based I would call it these days. Uh um, that performance in one place does not look the exact same. There are characteristics that are similar, and there are requirements of the sport you play, and there's requirements of the elite environment, but how that is put together can be completely different dependent on what are the values of the human being and and also from an ecological perspective, what are the influencing factors on that individual within the environment that they need to adhere to, and also that their society expects of them. And that has a huge influence.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

It's a it's a lot wrapped around hitting a ball over a net, hey, isn't it, Jess?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Ball over the net becomes the most simple thing. That's almost what's funny, you know, is that you spend so much time on with this little you know ball, uh-huh, but it's actually the easiest part. It's the everything else that makes the journey.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Wow. It really is mind-boggling how just how fascinating the vehicle, you know, no matter what the vehicle is, that that how it opens up the human experiences, especially when you're climbing mountains and you're you know trying to strive for excellence. Yeah, exactly. So after Rio, I'm gonna jump forward to Rio 2016 with Maria Faye and Nikki Ladd, you deliberately stepped away from Australian beach volleyball for almost a decade.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

And I'm curious because distance often brings perspective, right? When you step back and you look back at things. What can you see now that you couldn't see when you were living it in it every day?

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Um, well, I think you know, it's important to consider that I in that context that I was the first, you know, woman within that environment, I was also the first woman to fall pregnant in that role. So I at the after the cycle, I I got pregnant with my son and went away onto maternity leave and considered that I would come back into that role. And, you know, and I think without pointing fingers at the sport, because at the time, sport in general is not very well and hasn't been very well prepared for how do we deal with female coaches? What does pregnancy look like? What does parenthood look like in a high performance environment? And that's something we're still working on today. Um, there's been a huge step since, you know, back then, but at that time, it wasn't exactly a deliberate step away. It was more that I thought I could play a bigger role. And when I went to return from maternity leave, I don't think the sport was prepared that I really wanted to be re-engaged. The opportunity wasn't there anymore. So I made the choice to go overseas so that I could continue coaching. And it was a lot easier, to be honest, in Europe at that time because of a few things. I went on a contract and I, you know, I dragged my son to Kazakhstan and had a great time there. And we were, you know, went on tour through China and a lot of really fun things that we got to do. And then we landed in Denmark. Um, and the training environment was a lot simpler place to be. And it was expected that, you know, of course, the kids will be there, and of course we will work training around school, like kindy pickup and drop-off, and we would have a babysitter there at the courts for me to be training five days a week if we wanted. And we had a, you know, at uh precedently, you know, there was a mum in the team that did the same thing, and no worries. It was just very normalized and was very interesting in Denmark. I had a return from maternity court dedicated to the women that were coming back from babies in the elite program, which is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah, which is something I've never experienced.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

And and so you'd kind of think that there's a maturity there, there, and granted the Australian Beach Volleyball program was relatively new, but the Australian, the the international beach volleyball is kind of new around the world. But what was it about Denmark and how long had that been in place for?

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, it was really interesting. I don't know that it was in place specifically in beach volleyball for that long. However, it's very much so a part of the culture and society that of course you come back after whatever you do with your children, and children are a part of, you know, work stops at 4 p.m. because kindies close at 4 p.m. So of course you need to go and pick up your kids. There's no picking up at 5:30. That would be you know, it's very considered like inappropriate almost that you wouldn't be picking up your child at 4 p.m. So there's a lot more flexibility around work in general when it comes to kids, and society is built around that. So it was really it was a huge learning experience for me with what was possible and what other countries are doing around women, and that the expectation was that of course you could bring your kid everywhere, and of course, training will continue, and of course, we have the same performance expectations, but the environment and the flexibility was much different, much more different. So that was it was wonderful for me to have that experience as a mum, you know, going, okay, my kid is here every day at training and training is like attempting to win, and then that's how it is.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

So that was normal. It was business as usual. So that was wonderful, you know, as a female coach to be able to have that experience and then to be able to bring that back to my work in Australia has been really important.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

From what you've seen around the world, is that unique or is is a European way like that, or was it unique to Denmark?

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Um I don't know if it's unique to Denmark. I think it's it's very much so a Scandinavian approach. Um, but I do think that there with some of the, I guess I did some research. I was part of the Women High Performance Coaching um project with the AAS um since its inception, basically. And I was able to lead the working group that was around uh maternity leave, paternity leave. And I don't want to discount um men in this as well as fathers, because I think it's really important. Women in this instance, I guess, are on the front foot, but this has huge overlays into what male coaches can do with their kids and families and the flexibility we should also allow them. Like going on tour for months out of a year is a huge burden on the family. And it's also unfair that we put that on guys just need to leave. And that's how it is if you choose this role as your career. So I think you know, it does work together. It's not just women, but because of the childbearing, you know, age and era and responsibility that we have in being birth parents, that I think it is it's very pertinent for women in particular.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

And it certainly makes sense to support the continuation of involvement in sport, in that I know as a parent, your perspective changes. It's it's no longer all like 100% and the stress that goes with it. You've got this balance of perspective of life. And so with that often comes greater performance. You know, you compartmentalize things, there's a bit more balance in your life. So you can see where performance as an athlete, I've seen countless athletes come back from parenthood and and they just play with the freedom, they they play with the maturity. And I'm assuming it's the same as the coach. It makes so much sense that that is supported.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, there's so much we can learn from other cultures as well. Like if I take my time back to Vanuatu, we took a baby on tour when she was five months old, and I was the one who was stressing about it. Everybody else was like, of course, of course, we'll take the baby fine. And I was the one going, No, we can't do that. How can we do that? How is this gonna work? And yeah, no worries, pass the baby around, baby goes for a walk with the manager when mom plays. And other than that, I just saw this beautiful experience of like no stress because it was much more difficult to leave baby at home than it was to actually bring with. But we just had to put in, you know, help around it. And that's what I found through that women in high performance coaching project. Um, that around the world there are wonderful examples of what sports are doing to help um parents, even some simple things, like in Canada, they had a uh priority parking, you know, at the venue. So just to make life easier, that the coach gets this next to the stadium, they have this car park, so you don't have to carry all the baby things, you know, or that in this instance it was a female coach. Her husband was paid to have a cleaner come in once a week to clean the house by the by the sport.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

So when she for every week she was away on tour, the husband had a cleaner to come help with domestic duties. And I just think that's so brilliant and beautiful and simple to implement, and it makes takes a huge burden off the family.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

That's pretty brilliant. So you just to kind of like we will definitely go back to that. I I'm curious too, because you spent a lot of time in areas that weren't so much like you spent time with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, coaches across continents and the UN sustainable development goals.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

How has working outside elite sport changed or impact your view of elite sport?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Uh it's it's shifted my view incredibly. Like I've been very fortunate to dance between the worlds of high performance sport and development and sport for development. And this clear distinction between the two is you know, is sport for development is really sport for social impact goals. And what does that look like? And what does development look like in those contexts of a humanitarian sense almost where we're going into places to deliver sport? But you might be working with uh people who are extremely marginalized or in very challenging situations, and some of the projects are very heavy, but sport is like the light in that. And our responsibility as coaches in that, like, how do we design a curriculum around gender-based violence to help educate a community? How do we help um move sexual health and reproductive rights for children in rural communities in Africa? How do we do that through sport? And what is our obligation as a coach? What's the safeguarding protocols look like? And things that development do really well. We are getting there from a well-being lens in high performance sport. Conversely, some things that we do really well in high performance sport, I think the development world could learn from as well. And I I've spent a bit of time, you know, trying to kind of merge those two thoughts together. That how can we both shift performance and social impact? And don't we have an obligation as coaches to do both anyway? Um, you know, how do we create great humans that can also achieve what they want? But by achieving what they want, it's not a single track. They get a shiny medal, and then that's all they get. It's, you know, their life feels fulfilled. And how can we help and assist in that role as well? So it's really interesting. Um, and so it's really changed the way I think about coaching and move towards like success is by the individual's definition. So my role in that is how do I facilitate success and excellence by what you believe it is, you know. So collectively we have a shared goal, but you also have this obligation to assist the the individual in how they want to achieve as well and what their best design life looks like.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Uh uh in the last previous episode, Shoddy was mentioning a program they're doing now where they're taking the athletes up to indigenous communities and really remote indigenous communities. And yeah, um, he spoke incredibly highly of the value that. The communities receive, but also the athletes receive when they come back. Again, it's about a more rounded, grounded perspective.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Were you working on the ground specifically with that or more of a program?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Both. I've done a little bit of work on the ground, a lot with the program design and organization and curriculum design specifically. Because, you know, best practice coaching methodology is really looking at, you know, game sense methodology these days. So how do we lead learning rather than how do we didactically or tell people what to do and then take that knowledge and try and implement it? How do we create self-directed learners? So people that are driven and directing the learning, you act as a guide facilitator in that. And that's something that you know performance sport would call game sense methodology. But in development, it's essential because you can't come into a community in you know Eastern Africa and tell them how to be. If you're going to get any success, it needs to be locally led and co-designed. And the design process is so important to look at what are the outcomes we want to achieve collectively, what are the things we agree on, how we're going to deliver it. So it's essential that it is led by the community and you are the facilitator. And you can check and challenge cultural beliefs or practices over time, but it has so much more impact when it's owned by the individuals who are running it.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Is that a I'm really curious about going dropping right back to the masculine and the feminine? And for me, the feminine is about community and bringing people together. And it's it's the when you're talking about that and in working with the community, it sounds like a very feminine perspective as opposed to the male way.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

It it sounds like a really valuable, high-end perspective on on um achieving outcomes for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah. Yeah, and I don't I think it's more just an open-minded perspective. I think that like we sometimes put too much onus on coaches to know it all, and coaches feel like they have to have all the answers. Whereas if we take it back to like what are the questions and situations we can create that help lead people towards that direction, like that is a much more uh deep understanding of how learning occurs. And you know, it's a really androgical, like, what are the what are the characteristics of an adult learner? You know, adult learners, we love to be self-directed, we like to have our own destiny in our hands. We want to feel like we're taking the lead. We don't want to feel like children, yeah, you know, out of being told what to do. And even, you know, from a pedagogical perspective, like child learning, like kids like to learn through explor exploration and play as well. So it's it's not, I think it's mutually conducive to success when you take that approach.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

And there's also sorry, it also comes from a place of non-judgment. You're just coming in and going, okay, I don't know everything in this situation or about this person, therefore, you know, you're not trying to impose will on people, you're trying to help, you know, create belief and understanding and challenge and move people towards where they want to go.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Have you is this perspective is this evolved? So, what have you found the the difference between coaching and helping people be coaches?

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Um I think it's a my perspective has definitely evolved over time. Like, you know, I started coaching when I was very young. I was probably 22-ish, you know, and 23 when I went on tour for the first time. And when you begin out coaching, you're very much so modeling, you know, the styles that you've been shown, right? And it was very much so like you do, you do, this is how, work harder, we'll get there. And slowly over time, you know, that's shifted. And it's been through learning experiences. You know, we had a cat a, I don't know what you'd call, like a catastrophic failure, which was one of the biggest learning points of my coaching career, was that no matter what I do, um, I can make absolute magic happen. But if my athletes, like if I don't bring them along on the journey and they don't have a voice in it, it doesn't matter what I do as a coach. And that was so powerful for me to, you know, learn the hard way. That bringing people into the team and letting go of that egotistical side of things of trying to own everything is so important. But also making sure that the space you create is very safe. So it's not about bringing everybody in, it is about really curating the environment to make sure the right people have influences. And and it takes a lot of the pressure off the coach to be the only, but really creating that team environment.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

It sounds like your experience in Venuartu has very much shaped your perspective that you can now you know influence and and and pass that on to the next generation.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah, it was hugely influential. And I think equally so though, each journey is like the Australian journey taught me so much about, you know, and there's so much good about the Australian environment in terms of professionalism and how they approach, like we do the top end of the tour really well. Like we've got years of experience with athletes breaking through to like the very top end of the world tour, and there's so much you can learn from that environment as well. I just think equally what I learned from the Vanuatu experience shaped you know who and how I think about coaching, as did that. And if you put those together, now I have a very different approach. And even going into Denmark, like it shaped my shaped my coaching again as well. From we have a very uh, I would say, acceptance of authority approach in Australia, um, where in Denmark the day you show up is the day the 18-year-olds on the court really drill into you about why you're here and how good are you and what do you know and why should we be doing that thing. And it was very like confronting at first because who are, you know, this was after I'd been an Olympic coach and all these things.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

And then, but they don't care because that's what their culture is. They're like, it doesn't matter, nobody is better than anybody else. So explain yourself. And at first it was very like, okay. And I grew to absolutely love that because you, you know, the 18-year-old would push back on the you know, experienced 34-year-old, and you would create this really nobody is essentially better than anybody else. We are all here to achieve the best that we can, and you know, and that was the environment to be in. So it was very interesting from that perspective as well.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah. What have you what have you found to be the greatest misconception about great coaching?

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Well, I don't know. I think there's just so many little things that we've gone from this very traditional didactic model of like the coach knows all, and it's usually what they did. I did it this way, so you do it that way, and that will work for you. And then having one, you know, one-way approach of this is how it must be, and and that's it, and that's what coaching looked like to really where coaching is trying desperately to move towards, which is it's not one size fits all. It is a co-designed journey. The athlete voice is important, athlete well-being is important. And I know I think Shotty touched on, but coach well-being is important, and it's something I've been trying to articulate for years is that there are all these different people in the journey, and equal one of them, like even your service providers are there every step of the way, but no one's hanging medals on them at the end when you get there. So how their journey is and what they contribute is invaluable to the team, but how do we take care of them in it as a sporting system is important as well. And equally so the coaches, like how do you know, for every ball that my athletes passed, I probably serve two. Yeah, you know, because you're there every day. So, how do we make sure that we take care of all the humans in the environment so that we can lift our athletes up?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah, that's great. Again, it comes back to there's so much going into a few people hitting a ball over a net.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

So you you've you've spent five years now on the board of women's coaching association in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah, we've I've actually finished up with them now. Um I'm moving into I started Progressive Coaches, which is my organization. So we've been doing um just some consultancy work and and working um as a coach developer in different capacities. Um and also I've just started my uh study journey as well. So I'm looking at you know, coach development again, and what does coaching look like in hybridized environments where we have dual missions of high performance and um social impact? And what is a critical, what are the critical success factors for coach development in those environments?

SPEAKER_00 31:23

And does that wrap up progressive coaches, that that word progressive? How why that word?

SPEAKER_01 31:31

How do we keep moving forward? You know, I think progressive for me is just it's continuous, like there is no endpoint to it, there is no we made it. It's just how do we keep improving over time? And as well, progressive is born of that development mindset that you know the person is not a finished product, we're a continuous evolution. And you know, how can we shift things forward? So when it comes to social impact, um, everything we do from a high performance perspective as well has social impact, um, like you know, non-gendered language, cultural awareness, safeguarding procedures, like all those things wrapped into it to make sure that for everything we do from a performance lens, it also incorporates best practice from a development perspective.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

And in shaping that as your own thing, did that come as an evolution from your work with the with the Women's Coaching Association? Like was it it started there but then branched out into something different?

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Um, it started there and it I guess it's just yeah, continued to move forward. Uh the Women's Coaching Association has merged into something else now. And I've been working with the high performance coach development team, the AAS, with their women high performance project since then.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Mm-hmm. And how's that developing like what have you seen as far as where that started from and where it's heading to now?

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Oh, it's gosh, it's like trying to hold back a mountain. It's been really interesting. What started with, you know, three little working groups has now grown, you know, grew to a huge like event, but it was all female coaches and a lot of you know disgruntled female coaches that have had, you know, the system maybe hasn't necessarily done well by to now into a very positive forward-moving motion where you know this year we'll have a um a three-day summit, and there's a lot of it's it's more like not what has been. The focus is not on the path, the fo path. So the focus is, you know, how do we best influence the future and how do we create better systems? And like not all of what happens in the system is um it some of it is just systemic, like it just needs to be adjusted and so that women coaches can play a bigger role in the high performance landscape. And I think there has been really positive steps forward. Like we I was part of a n a facilitated group for this SPI program, and I think we had gosh, we had hundreds of women apply to be in it that were all coaching in the Australian high performance landscape from across all sports, and we couldn't take enough, and it was a dual um project with New Zealand. We had New Zealand send their high performance female coaches over to be a part of it, and it was just one of the best um workshops I've been involved in. We had six facilitators, and everybody came at things from a different um landscape, multiple sports, multiple approaches, but such a collaborative environment. And, you know, and it's been ongoing with workshops online and just creating a real movement behind how do we support each other and without um disregarding, like, you know, you need experience, you need results, you need to keep moving forward as a high performance coach. This is the landscape of performance coaching, but it doesn't have to be brutal. You know, we can still support each other along the way, we can, you know, safely check and challenge, we can create environments of learning while it is still a competitive industry we work in.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Have you seen evidence of that voice being heard?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, look, I do I do see it moving forward in a positive way. I think it's been a really slow journey, and like this has been a couple of years now. Um, and now last year we had a big summit where a lot of the HPDs and CEOs from across all sports were invited to be there. Um, and we had a packed house. And down in Melbourne, it was just, you know, such a great environment where we were amplifying the voices of women that are doing great things in the system and also not shying away from, and these are the barriers that still exist. Like there are still people in the system that are having a negative influence on whether women are able to progress. And there's also, you know, something we talk about the hidden talent pools. There are pools of women like myself that went away on maternity and just couldn't find a re-entry point. So there's ones that were there, left and can't get back in. Or there's ones that could never get in to start with, even though they're doing good things, you know. So how do we help address those?

SPEAKER_00 36:16

And do you think those experiences, and we'll talk a bit more about you know what are the key things that are the challenges that are facing women coaching. Do you think those things are explicit, or are they just part of the culture that we have here in Australia?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I think it's a global problem. Yeah, I think it is a global problem. Um, like there has been systemic things that have been challenging, and there's also, I guess, some perspective uh things that have been challenging. I think there's you know really old study um out of the US that were looking at the NCAA system, and basically the findings were athletes prefer a male coach. Okay, that's fine. But when they dug deeper, they said yes, unless they have had a female coach. So it's really interesting. It's like, okay, when athletes are exposed to quality coaching, the gender of the coach actually doesn't matter. It's the quality of the service delivered, and so that's I think really, really important. Whereas but a perception-wise, women are maybe starting at a general disadvantage because you know, it's just like the same thing with kids that we used to do. Just hold up a picture of uh, you know, and what does a police person look like? And it would be a police man, you know, and what is a traditional archetype of a coach, you know, and it's probably always being a man until recently that we start to see a lot more female coaches breaking through, and then visibility is key, and then it, you know, those barriers break down as well. But they're uh there always has to be a first, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

So yeah, well done for being the first, yeah. And then you can uh imagine for a female athlete coming through if they don't see female coaches, you know, what message does that tell them?

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yeah, exactly. Or if they don't see female coaches that are able to have healthy family environments, you know, are they making choices around I you know I like coaching, but I am lost to the system because I want to go and have babies, and how do I come back from that? Or, you know, or even how do I go away you know from my family on tour for this long? Or there's a lot of sustainability questions that aren't you know aren't strictly um isolated to women, but particularly pertinent for women.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

And what are what assumptions and experiences that you maybe haven't mentioned have you encountered or heard of that many male coaches would probably never have to think about?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Um oh gosh, I can't tell you how many times I've been asked if I was the physio.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

And I had a actually, it was quite funny. I was uh I've been coaching on World Tour for, I don't know, maybe six years. And my husband came to the event to watch, and the athletes we were playing against came up and thanked my husband for the game.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

So I thought that was you know, it's that's one of the things that there is, it's it's there.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

And shout out to both.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Yeah, shout out to both, um, which is quite funny, but you know, I'm able to laugh at it, but I think there's you know, we can't deny that those things still happen. And you know, it's how I've always found that you know, if you do the job well, then respect follows. And you know, and I at the moment, you know, I've been doing some consultancy for Malaysia and I've just had been embraced so much to come in as an expert. And gender has not been even close to a thing, you know, working with the men and the women, the the program's been really supportive and just working with their coaches to upskill them, but really focusing in on the system and trying to help them professionalize their beach volleyball system within the cult uh the country, and you know, that's just based on you know the value that they believe, you know, hopefully I can offer and got nothing to do with you know my gender.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Right. And that's ultimately what it should come down to, right? It's like you're doing a good job, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

And I think that's you know, the coaching profession, but I'd love to see you know us within the Australian system able to demonstrate more successful in the way that we have with women coming back from maternity leave and becoming and back into being athletes. I think that there's a lot more work to be done around coaches and supporting that environment as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

So so what is the Australian beat volleyball specifically? What do we lose when there are so few women coaching at a high level?

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Well, that's the thing. We don't know what we lose, do we? Because we don't see them. And I think women like it's hard to say women have a more empathetic stance or something like this. I think women approach things differently sometimes, but it's not that men can't. I think it's just traditional um that this is how we see it. But I just think that the best person for the job, who is that? And if it's a you know, a female, then great. But does she get an opportunity to trial for the job? And even if she can trial for the job, how does she collect the experience to compete with someone who has maybe been in the role for a few years? How does she break through that? You know, and I think there has been some opportunities. AAS has a Gen 32 program now, which gives like budding coaches an opportunity to be supported and get on tour. And so there are, it's not a gendered um opportunity, but it is another opportunity for women to collect experiences and get on tour and and things like that. And there's women in leadership programs that are being supported. But I really think we lose the potential for more excellent coaches to be out there because if we say there are, I don't know, however many excellent men coaches there are, there's equal, there's got to be equal women. And if they're not in the environment coaching, then what does the system really lose? Is all that experience and expertise and lived experience is important as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

And different perspective, just purely for that value to to have a different eye and a different feeling for what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

So it's interesting when we talk about you know quota numbers, because I I'm I'm never one to say, right, we have to have 50% men and 50% women, because then it's kind of like, well, they're the right person for the for the job.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

So so is is the wrong question, why aren't there more more women? It is a better question, well, what kind of coaching environment can we create where where women can be uh have a pathway?

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Yeah, exactly. I don't know that I support like I'm really on the fence with quotas because I think in some ways it can do a disservice to the woman if they're not ready for that role that they get. And then they fail, you know, so we set them up for you know failure. So unless there's a system behind it that's supportive and you know, but I think we could look at it from a very basic perspective is what is the talent identification process for our coaches? Is it equal opportunity for genders at that level? And do those uh people get the same level of sport uh throughout and into the journey? And if we started there, then maybe we would have a better and more equal pathway. But I think if we um yeah, if we don't do that, then just putting female coaches in it can be a little bit. Of a disservice to the sport and to the community and to the credibility of female coaches. And then conversely, like to that, more contradictory to that, if they haven't, and systemically we haven't had that talent identification pathway, then how do we give people the opportunity? How do we create that visibility? How do we I think from my opportunity, like I started a coaching business in Brisbane out of Sandstorm, um, had the opportunity to coach for the club, then built my private business on that and did apply for a job in Australia originally before Vanuatu and didn't get it. And, you know, and I didn't have maybe the right experience then. But I had to go out and search different ways. And I do think that's really true is for any coach, you know, that doesn't have if they're looking to get into the game and one door closes. It's so important to say, you know, okay, that's your perspective. This is not the end of the line. How else can I? And I ended up going to Poland and doing a work experience with the Dutch program there and spending a few months, you know, on tour and in their environment and such a different way of training, such a different environment of coach pool mentality where everybody works together. And you know, it was very, very different. Um, and it was great, you know, it shaped my environment, it shaped the way I thought differently. It took me out of my box, and I was able to come back and have that experience of being in Europe and working on tour. And I did have to volunteer, you know, a few months of my life to do it. It was great. I was so young and I had such a great time, and I came back with a wealth of experience and something that was different from just you know one way of doing things.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

So if we it is a chance for you, if we turn a chance, if we genuinely wanted more women coaching at the highest level, where would we start?

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Hmm. We would start in the talent identification. And I think it's it's so important with the opportunities that women are given, um, in equal to the opportunities that men are given. And I think that's that's the the real thing is that we have cerebral equality that you know for your brain is equal to your brain, and now who is the best person here? And there are always going to be some physical limitations, probably on female coaches. And I think the next you know, Frontier, there are examples of women coaching elite men. Um, I have coached some elite men, and it's you know, it's great, but the utilization of athletes for you know that serving arm and reps and things like that becomes so important and how you facilitate that. And the training environment needs to, you know, to understand that. But it I don't think it matters so much because you're always trying to push the athlete's level of capabilities. So how many coaches are really playing at you know the elite level themselves these days once you've stepped into a full-time coaching role? That it really is the environment you create. So how you do that, whether it's bringing in athletes to support or whether it's you know playing against people that are you know better and having training aids and things like this, it becomes a creative process. But I think it shouldn't be a limiting factor. So I do think it is in the talent identification and the opportunities we give. And then the key is really what is the drop-off and why why are we losing people from the system? Because if we're able to get them in, then why do they leave and not come back?

SPEAKER_00 47:38

And it seems like a lot of the conversations we've been having around athlete is let's look at the athlete as a human.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

And it seems the same thing when it comes to coaches. Let's look at the coach as a human, as far as okay, as they get older and they're not young 20-year-old athletes, they're probably going to look at a family. So, what does that human experience look like if they're going to continue?

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yeah. And how does it how do we create a system that encourages that and brings that back together rather than um you go off into the world and you have your family and you chose to exit rather than there being opportunities for re-entry? And what does it look like? And I think I do think the maternity leave court thing from Denmark was really important in my mindset, is that if we create it and the opportunity is there, people take it up. If they don't see opportunity and then or they just don't know how to do it, then they can't re-enter because it doesn't feel available to them, you know, or encouraged or supported or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

So is is if that was a two-step plan, character identification as a priority to focus on, but then also building out a system, a structure, a support so there is that lifestyle support.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Yeah, I do think that's important. I think it's also important to recognise that not all women want to have you know children. So that's it's not necessarily it, and there's so many other factors that come in. Um, the women high performance coaching project with the AAS, we've come together like a thing called the leaky pipeline, and it is essentially looking at all the barriers that exist to to women's involvement and high performance coaching. And it's it's literally like a little windy road with all these exit paths and what gets in the way. And you know, there is the old, I guess, boys' club, which still does exist, and we we acknowledge that it exists in in the Australian sporting ecosystem. But there's people working on that. We just need more people to uh to shift that narrative of like just because you know they were doesn't mean they always should be. Like athletes have changed over time and coaches need to as well. Um, you know, we have cat athletes now that expect more and better work-life balance. They expect to have dual careers in um, and we expect of them as practitioners in the high performance sport place, um, and you know, I've spent the last few years working in athlete well-being and engagement as well, that we are setting up systems for athletes to be successful in dual careers, you know, where they have a career outside of sport and inside sport. And we're setting up that from a structural and systemic perspective. Then we need to also consider what does that look like for coaches? If that was an exit point for athletes over the past years because they weren't sure how they were going to continue because they couldn't afford to do their sport. Well, sometimes that's the same as coaches. How do they continue if they didn't get one of the four high performance coaching jobs available in Australia or one of the you know three state-based jobs available? That's very us pool is small. So, what other avenues are there for coaches and what does the financial career look like? How do we create a more sustainable opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Great questions, great, great points to consider. Well, what were some of the other points along the pipeline, the leaky pipeline? I love that analogy. Well, what were some of the other ones that that you discovered?

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Well, the first one was that you just they just can't get in. They can't get in for whatever reason. So they might be there in their system, and there's a lot more female coaches working at pathways level, but when they go head to head, they don't get the job, you know, and why? You know, so I think that's really important. And I think there's an onus on the sports to look at themselves. It's not just volleyball, it's in a lot of sports. Why is that? You know, why are we selecting male coaches? Are they really the right coach or are they just you know the guy with the biggest name or whatever it is? Like, you know, there's many reasons. Some of them are more um, I guess, outright than others. And then if they do leave, can they re-enter? Um, if they do get in, is it an enjoyable and supportive place to be? We've found that that's a huge exit point, is that for the women that do get in, their sustainability in that environment is has been, you know, historically quite low. So they either have to be tough as, you know, tough as nails and creating isolated environments, or they leave. The environment isn't supportive, and they've and a lot of times it was perception, um, where women feel like they have to be like a male coach, so I have to be didactic and wasn't their natural way of being, and it didn't feel authentic, and they didn't they felt like they were judged or whatever. So there's a lot of different stories there. But there was a key, I think we came up with something like 12 really key archetypes of women's experiences in sport, and all of these sort of played out over that that this is how women are experiencing the high performance pipeline. And how do we then circle back around to keep them in? And you know, and one of them was exit from maternity and how do we re-enter, and you know, and those people that are let's say they want to still be engaged in sport, but don't want to be on tour all the time. How how we like we don't have a job sharing for a coach role in Australia. This is standard practice for leadership in government in Australia. You can apply for a role as a job share, but that's not something we do in high performance sport, really. It's not something that's ever happened in that I've seen happen in the in volleyball in Australia. I would love to see it where we have maybe two female coaches job sharing if they both want to, you know, don't want to be on tour full-time, but it's the same role. That's a two roles for potentially two women that want to also be involved in the high performance landscape and still be able, you know, be more flexible.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

It really seems like coaching opportunities is a is a big one as far as like you have your high performance, a limited number of jobs, then you branch that out into the states, and there's a limited number of jobs. But then beyond that, it seems to be in Australian Beach Volleyball at least, a real it's a vacant lot as far as like what happens as a photo. I remember um Steve Anderson years ago was talking about his vision for Australian Beach Volleyball back in the day when they were forming it, was to to plant out gardens in as many places as you could and to have the coaches come in and the coaches go out, and then the athletes and players would go out and keep kind of nourishing the garden. So you develop this real spread of knowledge and awareness and buy-in from the local communities, and it doesn't seem like that has happened as far as you know, Bomber Kay is doing things in Coff's Harbour, and if Bomber wasn't there, would it still be happening? You know, maybe Andy's doing it, but it seems to be random where our grassroots coaching is, and we miss out a lot there.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 54:55

I remember I think prior to me working with Nat and Tanson, I spent so much time working with beginners in Victoria, absolute beginner adults who were never going to climb a pathway, but they just wanted to play, and having to break down the sport for them, having to get this. How do you dig a ball to someone who's zero ball skills?

SPEAKER_02 55:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Was so meaningful and helpful for me to actually get a deeper understanding of how it works. And I I reckon that was a really, really valuable experience for me as a coach, that you can take that fundamental essence and then apply it up the chain.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Yeah, absolutely. Actually, we have that conversation. I have a coaching learning development group and one of my board members, and he's a a um cricket coach, and he's coach for Malaysia, Australian women, and is now over in Holland. And we talk about this a lot is like you can tell the really good coaches because they can take complex situations or complex, you know, um processes and simplify and deliver it simply and break it down to something that's really palatable because that's what it takes, is the ability for you know to take something really complicated and simplify it into a way that's deliverable.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

Yeah, it seems like a massive opportunity for Australian beach volleyball, you know, with the national body aligning with the states, aligning with the communities.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Yeah. I think we have structural issues with beach volleyball, is that there's so many restraints over who can do what where. We have it on the Gold Coast as well. Like it's not super easy to just put up volleyball notes, uh, courts, and train. Like the council approvals are challenging and people really hold on to their turf because you know, they've worked hard to make small businesses there and have those courts and negotiations time after time with councils and things. So I think there is some wider uh issues at play because it's not as simple as uh you know just having a basketball court or something like this at a venue that exists and renting it out. You know, the infrastructure is quite specific and unique.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Um, right.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

But I do think there's potential there. Um I think there's also we need to find a way in volleyball within Australia to help support those more uh, I guess, privatized sort of pathways that you know, we have athletes traveling so far to go to places like QAS because that is the hub and it is the you know performance pathway. But for the athletes around that, how do they continue to train and what does it look like? And or do they always fall back to their indoor volleyball environments because that's club land and it's structured and it's safe and it's known as opposed to being able to fall back to you know their home beach clubs as well and continue to push environments and stay engaged in the sport.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

So so what is a healthy Australian beach volleyball coaching pathway look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Hmm, I think that's it's dependent again on the system that we have. Like for right now, I'd love to see a lot more engagement. Um, and I'd love to see opportunities. But what do you mean by engagement? Oh, engagement. I'd love to see more fresh faces and people like that are opportunities within the pathway. Um, and I'd love to see, you know, our state systems um being able to, I guess, produce more coaches coming through. And I think that would be really healthy. But then how do we make it sustainable? Is what does it look like to keep engaged on a weekly basis? You know, because I think that's you know, the pathway does narrow to the top. There's always going to be a finite amount of jobs to coach for Australia. Like we can't change that. And and it should, you know, so it should be because it is supposed to be the best of the best, you know, they get there and that's the job, and we should be proud of that. But then from there down, you know, there needs to be the meat in the sandwich where there's more opportunity and there's coaching opportunities. And I know we are built on volunteerism, it's not my favorite thing because I love accountability, you know. And I think when we pay people, it's high to have accountability and also very simple things like safeguarding but also sustainability. You know, so I really like the idea that we can build it out to be way more professional than it is, and people can get paid, and then therefore, they do not feel that exhaustion of volunteerism. Um, and then even though volunteerism is a beautiful thing and Australian support is built off the back of it, I do think that we would retain a lot more coaches if there was more opportunity in that pathway.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

I've noticed with our junior coaches like the junior nationals is a classic example where um it's a three-month window, pretty much, from preparation to event. And then most of those coaches won't go on and coach. And it seems to be these days, there's more and more experienced coaches getting involved, primarily because their kids are playing. And so they've got it's valuable, you know, time timeshare.

unknown 1:00:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

I want to spend time with my child, and oh, they're representing the state, so I'm gonna go and coach them and travel with them. It's a it's a nice evolution to see.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Again, you know, what happens in the nine months of the year, as you say, to make it so that it becomes something that they can hone their craft and and best case scenario, get paid for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

Yeah, exactly. And I think that it is a challenge and it's gonna continue to be a challenge. I would just love to see some steps forward in that where you know, more often there's opportunities to be paid or to for because it's all experience-based and we need to get experiences, you know, in order to improve. And for those who are really passionate about coaching and developing themselves as coaches, then that is the key, right? And it might be going overseas, it might be you know, working with the state-based athletes, it might be volunteering a bit um around the Australian national camps. But I think the more we can do of that, the better.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

So let's cast our minds into the future. It's 2040. Right? 2040.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

I don't want to do the maths on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

Yeah, don't worry about the mass of it. But we're a long, we're past Brisbane.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

2032. And a young woman has just coached Australia to Olympic gold medal in beach volleyball.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Excellent. Is she coaching the men or the women? Because I'd love to see the coach. It's lovely to see her coaching the men.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

Irrelevant. What's had to change between now and then for that to become unremarkable?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

I don't think it's remarkable. Like it's, you know, it's been there. Like we've got Beck Ribbon coaching, you know, winning medals in water polo, or it's it's not remarkable.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

That's what I mean. So what has to happen for it just to be a thing?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

It doesn't have to change. Nothing has to change. We could have that. The question is, how many other women were vying for the job as well? I think that's the question. Like, if it's only her, I won't be surprised. Of course, why not? I've been there, she can be there. But how many, how many other women were in the pathway? How many other women were supporting? How many people were qualified, experienced, and were vying for that role, and she was the best of the best. You know, and I think as as long as there is representation in that mix, then I think we're doing something right. If she is the lone ranger that just happened to be, you know, the best, and it's all male um, you know, colleagues, then I think we haven't progressed at all and we're back in the same position.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

I think going back to that two-step approach to have the identification, but then have actually put some consciousness and thought and action towards the environment that that they're stepping into.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

Lauren, final question of every podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

Is your finger ready? Oh, yeah. You have a button to push, and that that button will improve the Australian beach volleyball ecosystem well beyond even 2040. What would that button be?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

I have a button to push.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

And that button will improve Australian beach volleyball. Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Okay, my button is the professional tour button. Like, but I would push it with a giant button to go sponsors. We've got the courts on beaches around Australia, we've got finances flowing, we've got support teams operating as professionals. We have an ecosystem of beach volleyball that supports sustainable success for our athletes and gives opportunities for our coaches and creates a robust competitive environment where people can thrive and they can see pathway beyond I got selected at 21 or didn't get selected at 21. That I think that would be the most incredible thing to see. But I think it would have to, you know, there's so much that has to shift. But seeing as it's a magic button, I don't need to put too much thought into it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

Well, it's a pretty popular button. I'll tell you that. There's a fair few few guests so far who have gone straight to that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

Oh, yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

We're aligned.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

Oh, Lauren, thank you so much. It's been wonderful to hear your experiences and your perspectives on things. Very, very rounded and grounded. I'm so grateful for you to come on and share.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

No, thanks so much for having me. It's lovely to chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Okay, bye for now. Next time on the Samurai Shift, we move from fracture to integration. My guest is Volleyball Australia President Craig Carrow, former player in the earliest of the days, administrator, and arguably the most influential figure in Australian Vollywood. After a season spent exploring where our beach volleyball ecosystem has formed, stressed, and fractured, now we begin asking a different question. How do we bring the pieces back together? I hope you'll join me then.