Promotion Is Not Guaranteed - Navigating The Process

Promotion in the fire service is something nearly every firefighter thinks about—but not everyone truly understands. It’s often talked about around the table, debated in the bay, and sometimes criticized as a “circus.” But at the end of the day, the process is what it is—and how you navigate it says a lot about who you are.

In this episode of Wind The Q – The Stories Behind The Sirens, Lt. Dodson sits down with Capt. Swancy for a real, unfiltered conversation about promotion, leadership, and what it actually takes to move up the ranks the right way.

This isn’t a conversation about just passing a test. It’s about the difference between preparing for the exam and preparing for the job. From timelines and minimum requirements to the pressure of stepping into a new role, Lt. Dodson and Capt. Swancy break down the realities that aren’t always talked about openly.

They dive into one of the most important—and often overlooked—questions: Are you actually ready? Not just on paper, but in real life. Do you have the experience, the confidence, the decision-making ability, and most importantly, the respect of those around you? Because promotion doesn’t automatically make you a leader—and it definitely doesn’t guarantee that people will follow you.

The episode also tackles the consequences of getting it wrong. What happens when someone promotes too early? How does it affect the crew, the culture, and the individual? And how do you recover if you find yourself in over your head?

There’s also a hard look at the system itself. Is the process flawed, or is it the way people approach it? How much of it is about knowing how to “play the game,” and how do you stay grounded in doing the job the right way while navigating that reality?

Throughout the conversation, one theme stays consistent—honesty. Being honest with yourself about where you are, what you need to work on, and whether you’re truly ready to take on the responsibility that comes with the next rank.

Because at the end of the day, promotion isn’t something you’re owed. It’s not something you rush. It’s something you prepare for—long before your name ever shows up on a list.

This episode is for anyone thinking about promoting, currently in the process, or already in a leadership role trying to get better. It’s real, it’s direct, and it’s a conversation that every firefighter needs to hear.

This episode Includes dynamic content. If you feel impressed to help support the show, follow the link below. If not, please continue to like, share, follow, and subscribe for more great content!

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2605628/support

This episode Includes dynamic content. If you feel impressed to help support the show, follow the link below. If not, please continue to like, share, follow, and subscribe for more great content!

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2605628/support

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

At some point, every firefighter thinks they're ready to promote. They've got to turn them in, they've taken all the classes, and then they start this promotional process. And then they realize this and one thought it was at all. Promotion doesn't always go to them. Welcome to Wine the Q, The Stories Behind the Sirens. I'm Lieutenant Dotson Engine Officer here in Northwest Georgia. This podcast is about real conversations in the fire service. It's about the job, it's about the culture and what it actually takes to do it right. And today we're talking about something that doesn't get talked about a lot, honestly. We're talking about the promotional process. Now, this is not about leadership, it's not about leadership styles, it's just about the process. Some ways to know that you're ready for that process. So joining me today is Captain Swansea. Cap, I appreciate you being here. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background in the fire service.

SPEAKER_05 1:22

Yes, my name is uh Andrew Swansea. I'm a captain, Northwest Georgia. Um been in the fire service for 20, 22 years and some change. Um yeah. Still love the job, still love doing it. Um I actually work right now at the department. I'm have been at the majority of my career. I'm uh captain on the on the heavy, so enjoy it. That's a little bit about me. Got three kids, married.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Um, yeah, that's about it. Good deal. So Swansea has prior experience, but he came back to our department and we actually started together, went through rookie school together, uh, and I I count him as one of my friends. We uh we grew up a lot the same and we talk a lot, and uh yeah, I appreciate you coming on today. Yes, sir. So let's jump right into it. So we're talking about promotions. Um a lot of people think, and we'll talk about this a little more in depth later, but uh, they think that time makes them ready for promotion. I don't believe that at all. But um, so let's start with this question just to kind of lead us off. Why do you think people refer to the promotional process as a circus?

SPEAKER_05 2:38

Well, so you got the, you know, but they refer to it as a circus because it always is one, seems like, at least in the the the departments that I know of, the departments around here, even you know, big departments, little departments. Um it's it's a and it it always depends on how many who's putting in, how many are putting in, what is the position we're putting in for. Is it, you know, sergeant, lieutenant, captain, BC, and on up. Um but it's it's like a uh I've been I've been through the promotional process a few times, and it is a circus. I mean, you have you have stuff that you have to do, stuff that that is graded, uh you you prepare for it, you have mock interviews, you you know, all this kind of stuff, and it it feels like a circus because it's you're you get asked questions, you go through things that some are relevant, some are irrelevant to the job, um and you're scored a lot of times you're it's like you're you're you go through the promotional process and your your score is based on that two weeks of what you did. It's not based on the seven or eight years, ten years prior. Absolutely. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And and we've talked about that with like sergeant promotional assessments before. Um sometimes it seems like people wing it until they get to just that promotional process. And then they do really good on a written test, and then they go down and they do really good on their pumping scenarios, and then they're a sergeant. Yep. You know, what and that doesn't mean they were ready for the job. It don't mean they're ready for it.

SPEAKER_05 4:29

It does it, it and you know, we've all got the guys. I mean, we've all got the guys uh in our department, the the squared away dudes that um have been mi have been, you know, not promoted, been what you'd call passed up. And because they, you know, they either don't test well, they, you know, their interview was not as good as somebody that's got the gift of gab or whatever. Um but you promote the guy based on the the two-week or the one-week little process, and you wind up with a a lot of times a subpar person in that spot where you should have, you know, I and I it I I know it's a process, and I know there's things that you have to do to grade people. I mean, I get it, but a lot of times, sometimes you get the right people, and uh, but there again, sometimes you don't. I mean, it's you know, we've seen that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Do you think that is do you think it's part of the structure of that promotional process, or do you think it's just how it's executed?

SPEAKER_05 5:37

I think it's both. Um and and and you know, I mean all departments have yeah, you know, you've got the what's been called the good old boy system, where you just you you know, you walk in and and hey, he this guy's been here longer, he he gets the job. They they night you. They night you. Then you have the the promotional process, the testing process with the matrix points and what classes do you have on your career path and all this kind of stuff that you have to meet, which is also fair, but I I don't know I don't know how to how to do it right. It I I I mean it's it's it's a combination of both. You you've got to have both systems I I you know it's like hiring people. I don't I don't know how you do it and be do it right. Yeah. No ways either. I mean, uh you know, you've always heard people say, well, they done the good old boy system for years and that didn't work. Well now you you got the system that we currently use and and you know you promote based on test scores and matrix points and who's got what classes, and sometimes that don't work.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

So I don't know. Well, it's like me and you, we're from a different generation. Um I I think we get stuck into using the same promotional process for years and years, and it don't it don't always work the same. Same with hiring process.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Um there's generational changes, things, things change, and we have to adapt with it. Um so once we start looking at that process for what it really is, I think it moves you into a different mindset of am I really ready? Am I am I ready for everything that's coming? Because we go into these, and sometimes, let's just be honest, you you kind of know what you're getting into. You know, word gets the passed around to a point, it it happens. But I don't know if you're fully ready for everything in that process. Yeah, you're not. Nobody nobody is.

SPEAKER_05 7:43

I mean, you move up, you know, when you go. Probably like to me, the easiest the easiest one to step into was driver. Because uh, you know, me and you both, I mean, we drove so much as an FAO. So and I the only thing moving to Sergeant ever was for me was just I got some chevrons. It was the same thing, it was the exact same. Um and I could fill in riding the seat, but but that came a little bit later. But as far as the the part of the job as of driver, not a lot of change. Um started riding a seat, uh, you know, filling in. But there again, when you've got a new sergeant that's rolling up, you always put a senior FAO with him for that first few months. And and, you know, he he it that was the easiest. Like going to Lieutenant, um, because you know, there again, we rode up a bunch as a driver. Um before I went to lieutenant, uh the kind of the way it worked was my officer wound up having to go to go to the car full time. And so I was riding up every shift, and but I I didn't know you're still just like the the substitute teacher. Yeah. You know, it hey, we didn't get our pre-plans done, we didn't get the hydrants done, you know, I didn't do this right, but but yes, it wasn't really expected. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's just like, yeah, he's just sergeant riding up, he's filling in, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

You know, I mean, didn't so once you once you make that spot though, it's on you. It's on you.

SPEAKER_05 9:27

It's on you.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

So speaking of making sergeant, I gotta I gotta drop back and tell a little story here. So the very first time me and Swansea put in for sergeant. Um we there was some staffing dish differences. He worked on a different shift or whatever it was. So we'd got through the whole promotional process, but they hadn't let us know who got promoted yet. So I come in early one morning. We have a bench in our bay, and that's where all the good conversations happen. And he's sitting on the bench and he says, Man, I'm sorry. And I said, What are you talking about? And he said, You didn't get it. True story. Yes, so uh, yeah, he busted my bubble earlier that morning.

SPEAKER_05 10:08

What? So that I was working the shift before Derek, and I I had kind of bombed bombed that assessment also. And um I had went and talked to our training chief at the present time and he'd went over the scores. He went over it it was an accident on his part. So he went over the scores and he was like, Yeah, you you didn't get it. And I I just asked him. I was like, Well, who got it? And he named off the three, three or four dudes that did get it. Yeah, I don't even remember who it was. And it wasn't Derek. And it was not me. And it was uh, and I was and that's how I knew. I was like, well, well, it's not Derek, so and good, yeah. And I thought he'd kind of already pushed that out, you know, with him telling me that.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

He thought I knew I was terrible.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

That was hilarious. Derek's like, really? I think I said, No, man, but neither one of us.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

We're we're backwards. Oh goodness. All right, so a lot of people think of this as a game. You mentioned the old boy system or the good old boy system and uh different ways to work through that promotional process. But do you think there's a difference? We've talked about this a lot too. So we talked about being either really good at your job day to day, or maybe you're not, you know, you're just mediocre at your job. But you test well. So obviously, I know the answer to this already, but I'm gonna ask you for context. You think there's a difference between knowing how to test and being ready to promote?

SPEAKER_05 11:52

Absolutely. I mean Yeah, 1,000%. Um, it's not not my strong suit. And you know, we the fire service, we see it all you probably other careers also, you see it all the time. You see people that go to positions that that aren't good at it. They day in, day out, they're they're just not good at it. And and but they're really good at doing going through that assessment, you know. Um and that's I mean it is what it is. That's that's that's the thing. You it's it's just one of the things that this business, I'm sure a lot of other enterprises around have the same same type outcome. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I think a lot of people do focus on the test. I've talked to my kids a lot about school and testing. And we it's the same for us when we go to classes, uh, we go to gypstick or we go wherever we take these classes. Lots of times, in reality, we're going for a piece of paper. We need that certificate for a promotion or for our career path or whatever the case may be, get on a special team or whatever. So are we going to class to gain the knowledge and then the test confirms that knowledge? Or are we just going to take a test and get their certificate? And that's what I've talked to my kids about. You know, they get they get all tore up about these tests in school. The test is just confirming the knowledge that you already should have from from the lesson or from the class or whatever. Uh so it's important that we're not just concentrating on just the test. Soak up the knowledge and get good at our craft and know what we're doing. You you know, you you still have a thing too.

SPEAKER_05 13:41

You got test anxiety. Yeah. A lot of people. I I get that. You know, if I know I'm especially that's like on promotions, you know you got money on the line. Yeah. You know that, you know, you the the worst thing, I and me and you both have done it is to go home and tell your wife that you you failed. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure. Yeah, that hurts a little bit. That hurts a little bit. Hurts your pride. You know, be like, well, I'm dumb. I didn't I didn't do it, you know. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know. Like you say, I mean, the you you go go into a class, you're either going to get base knowledge that you can build upon, or you're going to get that certificate that you need on that career path. Well, you know, here in the state of Georgia, we got a lot of different classes in the fire service that are the same thing. Yeah. That's right. They're categorized different. And it's it's the same class taught nine different ways. And, you know, that's you and also, like on I ain't trying to get kind of off the subject here, but like like leadership stuff, you're you're you're either you're either gonna be a good leader or or you're not.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:01

To me, I I don't know. I s it's uh you know you you can't you can't make people be accountable and you can't policy accountability into existence. Yeah, you're right. It's it's either there there you either have people that are accountable or you don't. And and kind of you know, good solid leadership in the fire service, you you it's I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

It that makes sense. It does. There's things you can teach and there's there's obviously things you can't. Uh and every every person is different. And it kind of goes back to people getting hired on here. We can teach you how to run a chainsaw and vent a roof, and but we can't teach you how to live a third of your life with other people.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Uh and that's a super elementary illustration, but there's things you can teach and things that you can't. Some some of it you just have to bring with you. And and skill, like teaching stuff too.

SPEAKER_05 16:03

You it's I don't I don't know, like we say we can teach it. You can teach a lot of it, but you can't, it's hard. What I've noticed, and I'm sure you've noticed, you can't teach people how to work. And what I mean by that is how to do hard work. Yes, the drive. That yeah, it's I mean, I can show you how to, you know, it I can show you how to force a door, okay? But I can't I can't make you be aggressive. Or I can't make you I you know, I I uh that's you either got it or you don't. Yeah, you're right. You know what I mean? And and I think that a lot of times that's goes by, you know, there's a lot of stuff like that in the fire service. I mean, you you it's it's like teaching a guy how to run a chainsaw that has, you know, kind of grew up doing things, helping a around his home or or whatever the case may be. Maybe had an uncle or a father, granddad, whatever, that that kind of showed him how to work versus a guy that's he wants to work hard, but he just don't know how. Yeah, he don't know how to use his hands. You know what I mean? Yeah, he's never done anything. And the fire service is a blue-collar working man's job.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

It just is. It's always gonna be. It shows up quick when you get here. All right, so that leads us into the next part of this because a lot of guys think that time, tenure, time, and rank, that means you're ready to promote. And that's absolutely not the truth. It don't.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

And that that the thing, there's a saying too, that uh that guys can outrank their knowledge. Yes, absolutely. And you can outrank your ability. And you you know, if it's different for everybody. And all and also you've you've also got to take into the fact that a a lot of people uh get to a position that they really like and and they're done. They're good at it, they're done, they don't want to go any higher, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that, you know, and and also, but it's I don't know. Like you can get to a position, the what the one thing that's always scared me is I don't want to get into a position, get promoted to a position, and wind up hating it and be like, God, man, I I'd wished I was back where I was. I hate my job.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Absolutely. You can promote yourself out of enjoying your job. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 18:39

100%.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

But that's you're talking about staying in staying in your rank. We've got relief drivers, firefighters, who 15-year guys, yeah, 20-year guys, and that's where they want to be. And I I think that's fine. I like I would put them in the seat right now. They can do the job, but that's where they want to be. I I don't think promotion is right for everybody. Um, but if you feel like that's what you want to do, you need to be ready for it. And stepping from driver to lieutenant, are we ready for it immediately? No, there's a learning curve.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:17

Um, well, and any any job you do, like so I was told this uh it's been several years ago, but you move into a different position. There's about three to six months when you take that new position that you're ineffective. Yeah. That you're I I remember when I first made lieutenant, you know, I had thinking, like, what am I supposed to be doing? I don't know what to do, you know. Um because you're you're learning. You don't know really what your place is. Um you're trying to figure out, you know, because there is there's some different when you when you become an officer, guys look at you different, and there there's some of that, you're trying to figure out what that is exactly, how people look at you. You you realize that, oh man, if I I I'm kind of the the I mean I'm the officer, you know, so I I have to make a plan and we have stuff to do, and I'm responsible for this, and I'm I've you know, it and it takes a little while when you when you move up to a position and learning what that means. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

What do you think? Let's contrast these just a little bit. So in the last couple of years, we've started taking on more experienced firefighters from other departments.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

So that has kind of changed our progression uh from the traditional you know, you came here and you started working up through the ranks slowly, and we've brought in this fast track system. Um contrast those two a little bit, the fast track versus rising through the ranks here. It's good and bad.

SPEAKER_05 20:57

Um and you know, you the hiring guys with past experience is it's it's good. You you get a lot of knowledge from doing that. But also, is it good or is it bad? And are you cause uh a lot of times, you know, they're bringing it just like if I went to another department, I'm gonna take what I know here and carry that with me. And I'm sure and I'm gonna look at everything they do in a biased comparison to what I know. Yeah. And that's what you get, is you get a lot of biased opinions, like why are we doing this? This don't make any sense. Well, it's because you're not at your old department. That's why. Um and you you get some of that. Now, the fast track program I I don't know. I y you don't you don't know, you know, cause again, guys have been to school well. Where they work, they've got these certificates. They've got MPQ, this, that, and the other. But you don't know of what caliber of of training that they've had. You just know they've got a certificate. I mean, I've got a lot of certificates that that I I have 'em, but I don't mean I'm a pro at them. Yeah, that's true. You know, um, but so every department's different. And it's it's one of those things that I I me personally, I prefer guys that come here and and start here because they're again, like any departments you go to, they do, they're gonna know how we do things. Yeah, that's true. The ins and outs, every day, day-to-day operations, whether it's rack and hose, you know, pumping a rig, the way rigs are set up, they know how we do it. There's no bias comparison on what others somebody else did.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah, every department's different. We see that when we get recruits back from gypstick. Yes. And then we start going through all right, I know that's how you learned it there, but let's do it this way, you know. A little more tailored to our department. So time helps with exposure. It don't really help you with well, I can't say not at all. It may help you with growth to a point, but exposure is what helps you with that growth. It's like a chain or a ladder. So the time here gives us more exposure. And we see that with uh new firefighters, they come on the truck. It may be, you know, we don't run a ton of fire here. Uh so it, you know, depending on our three shifts and our five stations, it could be a while before they actually see their first fire. Same thing for an officer. Uh, we've had people who have made it to lieutenant and only had a a good fire or two. Um getting that exposure is what is important. Time helps with that, and then when you get the exposure, the exposure is what helps your growth.

SPEAKER_04 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Um, and it brings it back to something more important than just time. And um, you have to be honest with yourself. I think that's a very important part. Um we mentioned earlier seeing people who promoted that wasn't really ready, uh, wasn't ready to step into that role. And like I said, we have to be honest with ourselves. If am I really ready? Because it's a huge responsibility change.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Uh, if you go from firefighter to driver, your responsibilities change totally. Once you, even though as a driver you bounce over to that seat every so often, depending on staffing or whatever, when that when you move to that seat full time and you're responsible for everything, it's totally different. 100% different. Um as a person within yourself, how do you think you know when you're ready?

SPEAKER_05 24:59

I d I to like to me, I I it's to me it was in my gut. Like I I knew and like you start, you, you know, you you play this game long enough and you I you you know different crews, you know different officers and different things, and you and you run calls, years and years of calls, whatever, and you're like, man, I can I mean I can do just as good or better as that guy. Nothing not anything personal, but I I mean I there there's nothing that he's doing that I can I can manage 100% that. Yeah. And then um you know knowing knowing you're ready to to to move up is I I you gotta you gotta know in in your heart and in your gut that you're and and you gotta want it. You gotta want to when once you transition up to that officer role, your whole job, your whole existence becomes, and this is like a cliche thing, but it it is to make guys under you better. Yeah, that's right. You know, and it's you gotta you gotta want to do that. You gotta want to make people um do do better, do good work, you know, and and and polish the craft. So that's you gotta you gotta have some uh enough savvy about you to to give.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Yeah, I I would say. Yeah, you know. I I agree. And I think there's some things you need to ask yourself before you actually move into this process. So here at this department, uh emails will come out and it'll be an announcement that uh assessments are upcoming. Uh typically we know that's gonna happen, you know, just based on who's retiring or who's leaving or whatever the case is. But um I think you need to ask yourself, are you competent? Do you know your job? So typically we try to train to the level above where we are. And then if something happens, we need to step into that role, we can do that. Um, but are you competent in moving into that role? Do you know the job? Do you know what's required by standard operating procedures and city policy and uh all the things that need to be into place? Are you are you good with that stuff? And uh are you consistent? And I will take this to the as basic as it gets. And this seems like it doesn't matter, but it it actually does. Even and this could be firefighter to chief, it doesn't matter, but walking in the door in the morning first thing, are you are you close to the same person every time you walk in the door, or does your crew have no idea who they're getting for the day? Right, right. Uh and like I said, that's about on a on a basic level, but trying to be consistent, doing things the same way every time so you're fair and you're consistent across the board, but even as a person, being consistent in how you interact with other people. Yeah. I think it's huge, I think I think it's huge. It's huge.

SPEAKER_05 28:09

And you got you also got to be humble. I mean, any any position, it it it doesn't matter. Like I've always I like to say, you know, I can learn something from the two-week man from to the 25-year guy. You gotta be, if you whatever position you're in or whatever position you're stepping into, you know, ask ask opinions. Ask for help. Ask, you know, that I mean, ask for good constructive criticism. You know, um, don't get bent out of shape when, you know, somebody tells you a better way of doing things. It's, you know, and and if you're you've got to know in your mind, like if somebody shows you something, tells you something, teaches you something, whatever the case may be, you're gonna know immediately, well, that's better than how I've been doing it. Yeah. That's easier, or that that's worse, or whatever. Yeah. You know, I mean uh humility. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

You know.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

We we had that structure fire a couple of shifts ago, and we had our had our little critique around the kitchen table. And uh we talked about that because we've got I mean, most I can't say most of the department, but we have we're so young as a department. Uh and if I get off the truck on a structure fire and we're getting ready to go in, and I've for some reason miss some small detail, but my new guy sees it, tell me. Yeah. Because, you know, it's hard to see everything. Um I think another thing, and this starts as a firefighter when you come in the door. But do people trust your decisions? Right. We start building that as a firefighter. That has really nothing to do with rank or where you're at.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Um, but people have to be able to trust you and trust that you're gonna do the right thing.

SPEAKER_05 30:00

And and the trust thing, man, that goes that goes both ways. You know, that's a that's a two-way street. And I think I think a lot of people forget about that. You gotta trust, you know, your guys gotta trust you and you gotta trust them. And and they gotta know that. And you gotta be, you know, at any any position, you gotta be like validated. Yeah. You've gotta, you know, it's I don't know. It's just is sometimes in the fire service, um people, you know, they get you know they become unvalidated because they're not, they're they're too much outside outside of of the realm. Out, you know. Um at the end of the day, running calls and and and being ready to to do the job is is what the the whole fire department existence is for. And and you gotta be, you gotta stay validated. You know, you gotta stay in shape. You gotta you gotta be w we're all firemen. At the end of the day, everybody that works here is a firefighter. Yeah, that's right. And you gotta you gotta keep that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

That's very important. I think I think in this to being able to handle pressure. Now we don't always we don't have this perfected. But there's been a few people who I've worked for in the past that are um most of them are retired now, but I've tried to pattern myself after them. Um even if I'm tore up on the inside, I try not to let it show because you know, we run a call and the tone in the voice of the person who is talking on the radio sets the whole tone for that that scene. And if we, you know, if if they're giving their size up and they're just coming apart and they're screaming, it changes everything. Everybody in every truck leading up behind them is now in this whole different mode. Yep. So I try to keep it calm. I don't always do that. Sometimes we just we kind of get carried away. Our adrenaline still pumps. But I I think that has a major effect on the whole scene starting from As goes first do, so goes the scene.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Yeah, as saying's been around for my whole career. I mean, probably forever. But yeah, you know, being and everybody, everybody has, you know, you've got that handful of officers for throughout your career, and you've got the good ones and the bad ones. Yeah. All of us do. And you you take, you know, you take the best traits from the best officers you've ever had, and you take the bad traits and be like, well, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah. You know, or you know, we we all you you pattern after people that, like you say, I mean, you look back, I look back through my career, and you know, I I know solid guys that I worked under, and they were, I mean, you know, just their demeanor, how they carried themselves, how, you know, highly respected, you know, uh workers, not, you know, like like and and then I've got the ones that was like, ah, man, that don't do it that way.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Don't do it that way. You know, yeah. So and I think the reason all of this matters so much is we move into this position, it don't affect us, it affects crews. Because now, as a lieutenant of a double company station, everything I do affects potentially both crews. Uh at a minimum, that's six people right off the rip. Uh, and then in your position where you're you're riding up in battalion, I mean, it could affect everybody.

SPEAKER_05 34:02

Yeah, it affects the whole ship.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, it's a huge deal. So you gotta be ready for those things. Um so we've talked about promoting too quickly, and uh people who stay in positions where they're at, maybe, you know, in our opinion, longer than they should. They maybe they should have stepped up, but uh they're good where they're wanting. And there's and there's always that thing that you mentioned a while ago of promoting yourself out of enjoying your job. Um there has been times as a lieutenant that I've thought that's exactly what I did. I promoted myself out because I love driving.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

I love driving, I love pumping, I loved everything about that. Uh and I think it was time for me to promote up, but I've thought about that a lot. Man, I I promoted myself out of enjoying this. Um and we me and you've sat down and we've talked a lot about the waves that you go through. You go through these these times where you think, man, this ain't really this ain't what I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Uh and it passes, you know, we we get some wins here and there and uh things get better, but uh know that you're ready before you step into this process because you might get it. Yeah, 100%. A hundred percent you might get it.

SPEAKER_05 35:12

And it's you know, it it it so the a guy that that worked here um been been uh few several years ago, but you know, put in for a position, thinking, like, hey, I'm just gonna go through the process, not ready for it, don't even want, don't not interested. Yeah. Uh got the job. And so, yeah, and I think kind of kind of stood a step back and was like, well, wasn't counting on that one, you know. And so yeah, make make sure that before you before you do pull the trigger on something that you are ready to to to make that next step. And if you don't want to, don't. Yeah. Don't yeah, you know, that's that's uh one of the most important things. If you don't want to, don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 36:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Um all right, so let's move into this. Might be a little more controversial. Um so we talked about earning respect early. Yeah. And you know, as a firefighter, and you work through uh your time and you build respect from other people and then they respect you. And um I do you think rank by itself can carry somebody?

SPEAKER_05 36:41

No. No, one thousand percent not. So you no, um rank, all that it doesn't mean anything. It it means something on paper. So you got to me, you have rank structure in the fire department. And but you've also got what I've always called the the hidden totem pole. Yeah. The hidden totem pole of power. And everybody that's been in the fire service knows exactly what that is. That's the guys that, irregardless of rank, what they say carries a lot of weight. Yeah. Because they're good at the job, they're good at the craft, and what they say matters. And rank all that is is it is something on paper. It means more in the station than it does anywhere else. Yeah, that's true. That's all it's for. And it's um at the end of the day, I it's not all it's for, but it's it's who's holding who's responsible for what. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. But as far as you know, again, respect, trust, validation, that's what makes you know, good good moving up that ladder, being in those positions. Um you know, your guys gotta like again, they gotta know that you're that you're about it. You can do good work, you know. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Um rank, rank won't carry you anywhere. I agree with that. I there's a big difference in authority and respect.

SPEAKER_05 38:18

100%.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

And I remember I watch a lot of Andy Griffith. I think it's a you can learn a lot from it. But in one of the episodes, somebody asked him why he didn't carry a gun. And he said he didn't want people to be afraid of the gun. They wanted to respect, he wanted them to respect him. Right. Uh, and that's kind of the kind of the same way. As we gain rank, we get more authority.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

And we have some authority to, you know, to tell people to do this or do that or take care of this duty or that task, but we want them to respect us. We don't we don't want them to just be afraid of, well, they can wrap me up if I don't do this. You can't lead with brass. Yeah. No, that's you can't lead with brass.

SPEAKER_05 39:00

That's terrible. And that's uh, you know, we we've all had those people that we've worked under that did, and you know, to it in my opinion, we're doing it wrong. And but you you got to it's uh if if your guys respect you and trust you and and and you're you know and you ask them to do something and they know that you you will or can do it with them, yeah, that's a game changer.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, don't tell anybody to do something that you're not willing or capable capable to do yourself. 100%.

SPEAKER_05 39:40

And that's it's like in any any job. It don't matter the job. You know, if you work on a on a framing crew, yeah, and and your foreman tells you to, you know, go start cutting rafters or throwing plywood and and he can't or won't, yeah, he's incapable, then that you're like, well, why are why are you telling me what to do? You know, you don't even know. Yeah. That's right. And that's it's it's the same thing on on any job. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Yeah, you can and I think uh there's a lot more that goes along with this, but you can have five bugles on your collar and people still not follow you. That's right. Um we as we start progressing, um, I I think early we I think early we gain trust and we build respect, and then when we make it to lieutenant or captain or chief, all of that shows because you can absolutely be a an officer and have no support whatsoever. 100%. You gotta start building that early.

SPEAKER_05 40:43

And we've seen it in the past. I mean, you know, every every guy, every department has. I mean, it's not something this ain't something that's just it's it's nationwide. I mean, we we all know of those people. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

All right, let's shift gears just a little bit. Um kind of rapid fire. Yep. All right, so promote early or wait?

SPEAKER_05 41:05

When you're ready. Early or late, I would say has less to do with it than when you're ready.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Uh obviously later would probably be depends on the position, but when you're ready, I would go when you're ready. All right. Biggest mistake people make in that process on promotions, yes.

SPEAKER_05 41:28

Unreal expectations? Okay, that's a good one. That I would I would say that one. Unreal expectations of what they're supposed to do, their duties, and what they're supp, you know, of their guys, yeah, a lot of times, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

That's a good answer. I like that. What's one of the biggest mistakes you see people make in that process? And that may fall under the same one.

SPEAKER_05 41:55

Yeah. Um biggest mistakes as far as getting promoted is not knowing how to not knowing or when or how to step away. Okay. Getting promoted is like raising kids. You want the the higher you get, you gotta let go. Yeah. You've gotta let your guys work. You gotta, you, you know, you get to driver, you're you're still you're in the clubhouse. Yeah. You get to an officer, you're outside the clubhouse. You get to, the higher you go, you keep stepping away from the clubhouse. And you've got to let guys work. You've got to let them do their job. You now you're there, you you know, it's like being a dad. It's like going from that baby to that that 10-year-old to that teenager to that 18-year-old. You you keep you slowly let go.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

That's part of the process. That makes good sense. Well, I know we've talked a lot about even in a command situation, stepping back where and it's hard. You get sucked into that scene, and then you lose that broad picture. You do. Um, but keeping yourself back, and I I can see where that relates. You kind of take a step back, you let them do their thing, and like you said, you're there if you need to be.

SPEAKER_05 43:18

But Yeah, you're there, but let and let them let them handle stuff things. Let them, you know, everything's not an emergency. Don't don't make mountains out of molehills. Don't and and a lot of one thing that I've learned on on that, on on guys working under you, is issues, problems, whatever the case may be. You know, you you gotta and it it helps them trust you also, but you gotta say, why why are you telling me about this? Yeah. That's not my wheelhouse. Like, handle it.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:55

Like I tr I trust you, man. Go fix it.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:58

You don't have to tell me Every little bitty thing. I mean, that's your job.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Go, go, go do work. There's there's been little things as a lieutenant that I finally, you know, I've caught wind of or whatever, and I'm like, well, okay, I didn't even know that was happening. But y'all handled it. Yeah. Good deal. Alright, so give me a wherever this falls, give me a hard truth about promotion.

SPEAKER_05 44:25

Something hard truth about promotion is every time you move up, there's gonna be stuff that you don't that you don't like. You're gonna be handed stuff that that you're either over or this project or this whatever it may be, and it's A, you didn't expect it, but you know, B, it's it's zero fun. It's something that you know, well Chief have asked he's asked you to you're your this is your baby now, or this is you you need to be doing this, or you do that, you're teaching this, whatever it may be. And you're like, God, I didn't want to do that, you know. But know that that part's coming. And but also there will be rewarding sides that you also didn't expect. Yeah, that's true. On on, you know, it's it's it's the good and the bad. But there again, you you you gotta be able to let go and and let your let people do their job and it's the balance, you know. As you as you promote up, the balance changes. And it it it changes on what you're doing, what uh the things that become important to you as you promote on up, they're not important to them, just like it was when I was a fireman. Yeah. You know, I don't I didn't care about most of the stuff. Yeah, that's true. And so that.

unknown 46:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

All right. All right, so this is like some of my advice about promotions right here. So a lot of it we've already talked about. Um knowing your capabilities, knowing what I need to improve on to be better at that position. Uh, and you're kind of looking ahead at this point, but um, a lot of that comes with working with seasoned officers in the past, like we talked about. There's good ones, bad ones. Um one of my officers that I had for a long time was uh really into the logistics side, um station maintenance and uniforms and gear and all of that side of it. So that kind of pulled him away from the administrative side of being an officer in direct relation to the crew. Well, as a sergeant at the time, that let me fill that role, and it helped me more than anything uh to kind of get ready because there's a huge difference in the administrative side and the tactical side.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Yeah. Um and I think that's a lot of things, a lot of a lot of times people don't think about the administrative side of it too. Uh and especially recently, that side is building and building, and it just trickles down to us. So um knowing how you can improve with that. If you have a if your officer does reports, ask to do some reports, ask to do the daily logbook, ask to do some of this stuff, and that will acclimate you to that a little bit better. Train with your crew, don't send them out to the training yard to do everything by themselves.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Uh that's a huge thing with that that respect. They want to be able to see you do it and you performed also. Yep. Um respect of your peers and subordinates, but the guys that are that are with you. Uh, we talked about this earlier. We start early. We we start building that respect as a firefighter and then as a sergeant. Um that respect that you build doesn't always a hundred percent carry over to your new position, but it builds that foundation that people can trust you. Uh sometimes we get into a lieutenant spot or a captain spot, we still in a way have to prove ourselves in that position. Uh, but that starts with that good foundation of building that. And you're you're proving it to different people, too.

SPEAKER_05 48:26

As you, you know, not only are you proving you're you're trying, and that's the thing, like that that first year as a company officer, you know, you're you're trying, you got your guys looking at you. All the tailboard talk on, hey, what's it like working for him? What's you know, this, that, all, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you also have your BCs, captains, chiefs, all of them looking at you, wanting to know, trying to figure out, are your tactics good? Is he doing, you know, yeah. That that kind of thing. So you're you're getting looked at from both ends of the spectrum. Yeah. And you gotta know that. And the higher you go, the the the bigger the spectrums get.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

That's true. And you gotta pro you gotta prove yourself to yourself uh in a way. And it's something else I thought about when you were talking. So as a firefighter or even as a relief driver, a sergeant, you're still like you said earlier, we're still part of that crew.

SPEAKER_04 49:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Uh we're still part of the pack. Well, you're in all the text threads and all that stuff. And then as you start promoting, you start dropping out of those, and you know, man, what's you know, what's the crew saying? Yeah. Because you're not in that anymore.

SPEAKER_05 49:36

Yeah, you become very, like, very absent of the like the tailboard talk. You know, all the the the bench that Derek was telling you about, you're not on the bench anymore. You're you're not privy to those conversations. You uh and that I've you know, I've been riding up for a little while and it becomes a lot less. You know, I have to ask guys like, hey, what uh is it do y'all like this? Or is this you know, because it they they don't talk to you. Um or they don't talk to you as much on on stuff like that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

So So I had these thoughts too. So after you've been promoted and you've been in this new position for a few years, whether it's lieutenant or it's captain or battalion chief, whatever. Don't forget, and this is from experience because I've I've seen this myself. Don't forget that everybody here is not brand new. Like some of us remember, some of us worked with you on the truck. That's right. We we remember how things were then.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Uh another one I throw this in, don't tell stories that you wasn't there for.

SPEAKER_05 50:50

That's another big one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

But yeah, no, know that everybody's not new, some of us work with you. Um we we touched a little bit a little bit ago about micromanaging. Um and and I agree with you a hundred percent. Give give your new officers duties and and let them handle it. Yeah. They're gonna mess up.

SPEAKER_05 51:14

100%.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

I mean, we've we've been officers for a little bit. We we mess up every shift. Yeah. It's part of it.

SPEAKER_05 51:19

We're it's part of learning. And expect it. Yeah. That's the that's another thing. Like, like you said, we we got like every department, right? There's a lot of new guys. I mean, there we're in this. It seems that everybody I talk to from all departments uh here in North Georgia, you know, they're in the same boat. We've got 20 new guys, 30 new guys, 50 new guys, depending on the size of the department, however big it is. You know, and I'm when I say new guys, I'm talking three years or less on the job. Yeah. You know, those don't and that that goes back to that unreal expectations, you know. When I came here in 04, I was surrounded by 10 year firemen. Yeah. Well, you I you I couldn't mess up. I had four guys with me all the time that were 10 plus years on the job. Well.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

And had no issue saying don't do that. I had a real problem.

SPEAKER_05 52:23

Telling me what they thought about it. So, and now, you know, uh your senior guys now are are two years, eighteen months. Yep. You know, so it's it's and we we've promoted you know, all departments, we've we've had to fill promotions, fill slots, and that's where we get these, you know, five, six year lieutenants, these eight, nine year captains, these I mean it's just it's part of the game, you know. But yeah. And that when you talk about culture, it's not the that's the culture that's changed. Yeah, you're right. We got gr uh great guys, but the part of the culture that's changed is we're so young. Everybody. You don't have those 25-year lieutenants, those 35-year captains. I mean, those guys aren't here. Yeah. You know. We retire, and what's what's changed is we we retire in most places around here between 50 and 55.

SPEAKER_02 53:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:24

Well, those people don't exist anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

And they're never gonna exist. Well, you talked about that structure fire we had a couple of shifts ago. You said because you were you were in the car in battalion that night. How many people on that crew or on that scene were less than three years? Every firefighter on the scene, all of them.

SPEAKER_05 53:46

Yeah, were less than less or less, yeah. All of them. And that was with on that scene, that was with one, two, three, four, five trucks. Yeah. Every fireman on that scene had less than three years on the job. That's crazy. Half of them had less than 18 months. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Well, I You know what I mean? That that makes our our leadership side be that much more important.

SPEAKER_05 54:10

Yeah, and when you start talking about, and that it's that way, uh, like I said, across North Georgia that I know of, uh, probably across the whole state. But it's just that's just the nature of the beast. And that's the culture that we have. You know, it's just because there again, seven or eight years down the road, actually six or seven years down the road, uh the department that we're at, there'll be another mass exodus. There will be. Me included. You know, I'll be leaving. Um but there there'll be probably close to half the department gone. Yeah. So it yeah, I mean, it's just gonna keep going. That's true. And again, we will have six, seven, eight year uh officers and sixty brand new guys. It'll be the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Yeah. That is true. It's gonna flip again. It is. And this so this is kind of and you can speak more to this because you actually ride battalion. Uh, but this is I guess seeing battalion from a lieutenant's position. Um kind of touched on this. We touched on the administrative side and stuff, but on regular calls, let them run them by themselves.

SPEAKER_04 55:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

Uh listen to the radio, monitor that traffic, and like you said, if they need you, I mean I can be there in three minutes. But let them run them. Let them make the decisions, let them make the mistakes. Um and if correction is needed, offer that. Yeah. Offer it. And and a lot of times too, on like it in the car, you know.

SPEAKER_05 55:55

Run a call and just and be there. I all I gotta do I I can just be there, you know. And not that's you know, I I do I do that some. You know, if it sounds like something where, especially if it's a like you think, I might need to go check that out.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

You know.

SPEAKER_05 56:12

I might not ever even get out of the car, but I'm I'm there.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

I know we run the car fire the other day after the police chase. And uh and I knew you were running it, you were behind us. And I got out of the truck and there was nothing to it, and I turned around and Well, Swansea left. Yeah. But yeah, be there. Yeah. But you don't have to be actually involved in everything. No, and and and that's the thing.

SPEAKER_05 56:34

I I do that a lot. I ran a call today and uh hung out way back of the scene, and when it got, you know, I was watching it and I I was like, yep, they're good. I just left.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:52

But yeah, there again, let that's what makes good people.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

You know? Well, we talked about offering correction when it's needed, and um I think there's a way to go about that too, with respect.

SPEAKER_05 57:09

And um and you'll be surprised too how and I'm I'm sure you get this at is if they know you're there and they know like I said, they you trust them, they trust you, and you have mutual respect. They'll come back a lot of times to the station and say, Hey, could I you see something like, you know, did I do that right? Could I done this a little different, or whatever the case may be? And you'll be like, Yeah, I mean, just you know, we'll smoke it over right here and try this. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Um That's the thing about correction is also having uh a path to uh fix the issue.

SPEAKER_05 57:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

Um and and in that correction, in in contrast on the other side, no this is in my opinion, no effective outcome is ever achieved by publicly degrading your crew.

SPEAKER_05 58:09

Now I mean I mean you learned Yeah, and that's something that's taught. I mean, discipline in private, uh praise in public. I mean, that's what that's like yeah, leadership one. That's the first thing they tell you.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

It is like leadership one, and you would think everybody would understand that.

SPEAKER_05 58:25

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

But that's not always the case. I think you we talked about authority earlier. You you correct with that authority, you correct with sternness, but the whole underlying thing is that respect.

SPEAKER_04 58:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:40

And the only the only time that to me is ever justifiable to like to get you light into hollering at somebody is if you s like they're fixing to get hit by a train. Yeah. Yeah. You got imminent roof collapse, you've got flash over conditions that they don't see. Something major's fixing to happen. Yeah. Sure. You might get out and go light into you know, blah, blah, blah, right, whatever. But again, if if that's the case, there's a real good chance that they're gonna be like, man, I appreciate you hollering at me because I've never seen that.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Yep. And yeah, I I was thinking, you know, we an issue where we've got a crew inside. We're outside, we're in IC, and we're watching the scene and we see the roof buckle.

SPEAKER_04 59:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

You know, we start, nope, get out. Yeah. And they're like, nah, give me three more minutes.

SPEAKER_04 59:34

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

No. Well, you know, in a situation like that, or they're they're about to get hit by a train. And the interstate, you know, the interstate's the dangerous most dangerous place we go.

SPEAKER_05 59:45

Absolutely. Um 100%. Because I mean, anybody that's got interstate in their territory, they don't people don't slow down. They don't care. They're what trying to get past you. And if it's dark at all, red lights is just like a moth to a flame. Yeah. So, yes, I mean, you you have to and that's, you know, I've I've actually done it, it's been, it's been a while ago, but I was riding up in the uh, I was a sergeant riding up in the seat on the interstate, and I grabbed a guy. He was uh driving for me at the time. I grabbed him, and me and him went over a guardrail. Yeah. And a vehicle had came. We had her, we had the rig, we had blocking set up, had cones set up, hole shooting match, uh, you know, state patrols on scene, blues everywhere. But yeah, and right through there. Running about I don't know. I mean, even it it was a wreck, he's probably running 50, 55. Uh but yeah, I mean I I steer wrestled him and went over the guardrail with him. Yeah. And about that time Carl went by. Yeah. I thought, God, dumb, what is that? What's wrong with these people?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

You know. If you correct the way that we've talked about correcting in private with respect, I think your crews are gonna support you and they'll follow you anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:09

100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

Um And know your people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:13

Like it it when you do move up, no it it don't matter if you've moved up. It don't matter if you're a senior firefighter. Know who you're talking to and know everybody's different. You gotta talk to everybody different ways. Based on you have to know your people. Are they there's some guys that need that, hey man, shut up, quit being dumb.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:40

There's some guys, if you tell that to, they're gonna shut down and be like, oh, he hates my guts. Well, that, you know, you gotta know who you're talking to.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Yep. And it's we're not we're not smoking recruits that have lost their gloves three three times today. Um it's we're it's experienced firefighters. Now, we talked about how young our department is, but still, it's not like recruits where we're running a rookie school and we're smoking them for something. Um we all forget steps. We break stuff, we lose stuff, we have bad days. So don't ever get to the point where you think you never have a bad day or you never make a mistake because we we all do it. Um I don't know. Maybe the my my biggest piece of advice is if you have to tell somebody how good of a leader you are, that's right. You ain't a good leader. Uh you're winging it and hoping it doesn't catch up with you, in my opinion. Our crews reflect our leadership, and it, but it says more about who we are than anybody else. All right, so let's sidebar for just a minute. Totally unrelated, not related to the fire service or anything we've talked about so far. All right, so what artist or music are you listening to right now?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:59

Right now, so I'm a I'm a would be like a Texas country guy, uh big like Treaty Oak fan, Gavin Adcock, Sterling Elza, um, which is like rock country kind of per se. Um Zach Bryan, Cody Jinx, all that kind of stuff, um would be most of my playlist at the present moment. Okay. Um I and I do, I also I'm I'm odd because I listen to a lot of bluegrass, um, big bluegrass guy. I listen to some gospel, I listen to some metal, I listen to, you know, I can go from Billy Strang to Lamb of God, and I'm fine with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

All right. But yeah, that's that's something you may not know by Captain Swansea is he is an accomplished drummer. And and tuba player.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:58

I am a drummer. I've never played a tuba, but I I have been drumming since I was little. Uh I got two older brothers that are they're right at 11 years older than me. And when they went to college, they were 18 and I was seven. And they left a full set of drums, a keyboard, a fender straticaster, a bass, the whole basement, just full of instruments. Because like they we all we all grew up playing music. Yeah. And they left a 1990 Kenwood stereo with like four cassette tapes. Oh, yeah. And a full tape closet of 80s higher metal. Okay. Is what I so, you know, I had like 250 tapes that I can put in with my headphones, and that's that's how I learned the drum. Just playing along, and then I wound up as time rolled on, you know, I just kept playing, kept playing, kept playing.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:57

So you mentioned tapes, and this is for the younger listeners. Is that something like Abraham Lincoln would have listened to, or what is that? Tape.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:06

It's a it's a plastic, plastic square, so it's slightly smaller than an iPhone with film in it that runs through a machine and makes music come out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:17

Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:17

Cassette tape. And if you get in a jam, you can wind them up with a number two pencil.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

That's where the pencil they gotta be a number two. We had a Cadillac back in the 80s that still had an eight-track player in the I think it was in the glove box. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:30

And but eight-tracks sounded better than cassette tapes, I always thought. Yeah. But well, you had a better quality tape, but the speakers and the radio wasn't no good.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

No. All right. So what podcast are you listening to right now? Not including this one, of course.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:51

So I listen to uh come from my ag family. I listen to there's one called Barn Talk. Okay. Uh it's some farmers up in Iowa. Listen to that one. Uh Um there's a there's another f like fire department one. I can't think it's it's on my iHeartRadio. I can't think of it. I just know the picture of it and I mash it. Um those two are the ones that I usually listen to because the the fire department one similar to this one is guys different firemen from around and they just talk about whatever and I'll be as similar stuff, you know, and the and the barn talk is all ag stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

So I listen to Hayden Alabama podcast a lot. It's a small town, a lot of farming stuff on it, but good clean podcast. I listen to it a lot. Um that's kind of been my where I'm at recently. All right, so Sean Ryan gives out SIG 365 pistols. I don't I got you a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:51

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

There you go. Thank you, thank you. Absolutely. That's awesome. Appreciate it. All right, so promotion isn't something we choose, it's just it's gotta be something we're ready for. We've talked, you know, you've got to be perfect for one day.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:03

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

So don't do that. Um but in reality, be honest with yourself. Put in the work and don't let the process define your standard. It's gonna be nerve-wracking. Uh, but make sure you're ready for that. Cap, I appreciate you coming on. We've had conversations like this before, but I think us being able to sit down and just have a good open conversation, I think that's that's what makes it makes it awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:27

I appreciate you inviting me, man. I I like it. We'll do it again sometime. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

Absolutely. Thank you for listening to Wine the Q, the stories behind the sirens. Until next time, stay safe. Take care of your crew, take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

Boots at the floor, jumping out of gear. Screaming,