Alex Tregenza on the topic of Leadership

 In Systemic Stories this week, Leonie and Laura interview Alex Tregenza, a Child and Youth Mental Health Social Worker and Family Therapist, working in a leadership position.  We learn about: 

• Alex's systemic family therapy journey and how it has influenced her clinical work and leadership experience
• Key theories and concepts that have supported Alex's leadership experience. 
• The ripple effect of systemic thinking and how you can find ways to start working systemically.
• Self-leadership and the importance of observation of self in leadership positions. 
• What tools and supports Alex accesses to keep learning and growing as a leader.
• Practical tips and ideas on how to turn up authentically and intentionally. 

This podcast isn't about a "right" way to be systemic.  It's about privileging multiple perspectives through sharing a range of systemic stories.

Laura is recording on the lands of the Turrbal People.  Leonie is recording on the lands of the Yugambeh People.

Acknowledgement of Country

We are honoured to be on the ancestral lands of the Traditional Owners of the areas we are recording from.  We acknowledge the First Australians as the Traditional Custodians of this continent, whose cultures are among the oldest living cultures in human history.   We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples across the nation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

All right, hello, and welcome back to Laura and Leone's Systemic Stories, Practice and Possibilities. Uh it's Laura here, and we've got Leone.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Hi everyone. Um, we're very excited today. We're talking with Alex. Um, and Alex is a mental health social worker and family therapist who also teaches at university level. And we're going to be chatting about systemic practice in leadership today. Hi, Alex.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Hello. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a privilege to be part of a conversation about systemic practice because it's shaped not only who I am clinically, but also how I lead and how I think about teams and ultimately how I've understood myself as well.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

And Alex, like we have watched your journey, right? So um we were just reflecting before we press record about um how we met, and it was a number of years ago where you first got introduced with systems thinking. So we'd love to hear from you. Like, tell us your journey with systemic um work and where did the plant um the seed get planted?

SPEAKER_02 1:12

And well, yeah, I mean, it's been quite the journey, and um I think I think it really started when um the seed was originally planted when I met Leone back when I was doing my psychotherapy masters, and I was like, this is a whole new world. So I nearly converted to doing the family therapy um uh course then, but I didn't. And I'm glad I waited because I think I needed to be in the right mindset to take on this whole new way of thinking. Um, and then I think uh more kind of um therapeutically, it I was really noticing that young people's difficulties like often reflected broader relational patterns. And I remember thinking if we only focus on in the individual, we're like missing half the story. Um so I from there it was really a journey of like, how the hell do I find out more about this? And that really led me um down the um amazing path of doing um more study in the area. And so I did the accredited um systemic advanced, what was it called? The advanced systemic um family therapy certificate, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Well, we met, I think, when um in professional development first um for kids in family therapy, and then um the Queensland Institute of Family Therapy Quiffed the Advanced Certificate Um in Systemic Family Therapy, um, which was one of the two programs that I I used to run before Phoenix. Um so it was really quite an immersive experience, I think. Would you would you say that or would maybe not? Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Uh yes, it was a it was a very immersive experience. I fully took the opportunity to marinate in it and um really just like was so curious, and I think that really put me in a good position to wanting to understand the bigger picture and what a systemic um family therapy um lens um can bring. Um, and I'd say like the potential for change to ripple across the system uh was what really was uh a big pull and what was really just blowing my mind in terms of changing the way that I wanted to practice and the kind of therapist I wanted to be. Um so it was an incredible exciting opportunity and really reset um how I approached my therapeutic work and also who I who I am as a person. Um so it it filtered um and diffused across various um aspects of my life. So yeah, that it does come with a some, you know, a caution.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Um changing totally. And so Alex, I guess you know, we're so excited to have you on to talk about leadership because I know you've been doing a lot of work in the leadership space, thinking a lot about systemic practice. Um, I don't know, I'd just love to hear from you how you think it's like sitting in your leadership piece as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yes, I mean that's been an interesting journey within itself, the leadership piece. So I am currently a team leader. Um and I think what's been interesting is I I often liken that kind of journey to, I think I've said this to you before, Laura, like a child star growing up in the spotlight, trying to find my um authentic um leadership style. And you know, obviously I had you know experiences of being in teams and and um you know uh seeing various examples and templates of what um a leader, a team leader can offer. But I really wanted to desperately find my own um kind of authentic and you know, also bring that systemic way of um of being, of um kind of, you know, like navigating a family system. I wanted to be able to navigate uh this team system. Um, and just as in like systemic therapy, I had to notice the patterns, the relationships, and the dynamics within a team as well. Um and I had to reflect on how my presence shaped the system, how my reactions, my decisions, my energy influenced the people around me. And I'd say there was there was a lot of process of trial and error, um, testing different ways of being, asking myself, like, am I leading in a way that aligns with my values? Am I supporting the system without taking over it? Like, I think over time I realized leadership isn't about having all the answers, it's about really leading yourself first. And um, my self-awareness, curiosity, and capacity to reflect became really the tools of um what I was bringing into the system. Um, and I had a lot of help and a lot of support in getting there to kind of reach that kind of conclusion. Um but yeah, it's an ongoing journey, the the old finding your leadership style. It's really uh it's been it's it's been like not about fitting like um a template or meeting others' expectations. It's been really noticing the effects of my presence, experiment experimenting, experimenting with my approach, and I guess really at the core of it showing up showing up in a way that's both authentic and systemic. Um, because I think without that lens, I would have really struggled to find my feet in um in kind of these really big systems. Um, because I think the transition from um therapist to uh leader is is not necessarily it doesn't, it doesn't kind of translate or map on perfectly by any means. Um I think there's certainly an overlap in that Venn diagram. Um, but I'd say that um yeah, there's there's actually a whole journey you need to do to get there to find that because who you are as a therapist and who you are as a leader have found is is um similar but also a very different experience when you need to maintain relationships with a team in an ongoing way.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Wow, Alex, it sounds like um your systems thinking has been really helpful in that journey because when you were speaking just now, I was hearing themes like considering interrelatedness and secularity, you know, how you're impacting others, how you're impacted by them. Um, I was hearing ideas from Bowen around kind of differentiated position. Yeah, I can see that one caught your attention. Um yeah. It is that, and and you know what, I'm gonna say the authenticity piece. Um, you know, Virginia Sateer was talking about authenticity and well-being, you know, kind of long before other people. Um so maybe like the Bowen stuff seemed to really catch your attention. Is that something that you think about like really kind of consciously and reflect on, or is it just come naturally?

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Well, I've had to, I guess I've had to to kind of really um because I mean, being an authentic person or trying to be um an authentic leader, I've had to really consider what are my values and how how am I going to show up. And I would say that um, you know, some of that has been just because of the training that I've done. Um, but then the big deep reminders that I've needed, um, the supervision, the systemic supervision that I've had has been incredibly um uh impactful and needed to kind of get me to this position where I feel like um I know I'm starting to know who I am as a leader and I've got some identity and authentic and I can like stand in my authenticity. Um so I would say that it's uh it's organic from doing the training. Um and I would say as a social worker, um, I have always had that kind of systemic lens, but this has um taken it to the next level of me in the system, and I've needed that support along the way to be able to maintain that, particularly because anxiety in systems is so contagious, and I've really needed that support and reminders and scaffolding to be able to make those uh leaps again and be like, oh, that's right. Oh, okay, differentiation, okay, you know, authenticity. You know, I I've really needed those, um, that support to to maintain that because it's it's tricky, it's hard out there.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

I love that, Alex. And I was thinking about, you know, differentiation and and you know, you're right, you sit in these systems that invite you to like wobble and lose yourself and lose what how you want to be as a leader. So I'd love to know from you, like practically on the ground, how does that look for you? So you feel it rising, the stress is rising around the team, or there's an issue bubbling. How do you find your your place with that and find that moment of differentiation where you can go, yeah, this is how I want to turn up?

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah, that's a really good question because it does rely a require require a level of observation of self. And it it um also requires you to um pull the handbrake up a little bit and stop flopping into kind of positions or kind of going into systems that um you haven't even thought about how you're gonna position yourself. So it's required a lot of uh kind of slowing down, uh thoughtfulness, like, okay, like if I'm going to um take this approach, what is my what are what am I what do I need to consider? What is the intentionality with taking this approach? So it's kind of not it's not being uh judgmental of myself around oh, this is a a good path or a bad path, um, or a good decision or a bad decision. It's more about being like, okay, if I'm gonna do this, if I'm gonna make this decision, um, what might be um my thoughts and considerations around this? And if there's if this does um blow up in my face, okay, and I've thought about this beforehand. So there's a real intentionality that I've had to bring into my work. Um and that's been um that's been that's been harder than it seems. Um, because I think um I think a lot of clinicians um connect to Bowen. Um and I think um all would love to um, you know, practice in a really differentiated way, but what that actually means on the ground can um be really hard to find what what um what works for you. And so for me it's like it's it's just slowing down. It's like, okay, how am I actually what do I actually want to do here and what might be um the outcome of that? And am I ready to accept those consequences or a great outcome as well? So I'd say that kind of just slowing down a bit before I'm like just flopping and reacting.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Um, we love a good slowdown moment, um, kind of thinking and being intentional. Um and I guess it it just kind of got me curious then. Um, what else like from your system thinking? You know, because we we've had lots of conversations in the past around systems thinking being useful for anything, like any system is them. Got kind of got me thinking, once you pull the handbrake and you slow down, um, and then you think, are there any other like systems thinking principles or ideas that help guide your leadership?

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Um yeah, there's there's so many. Um, so it's hard to distill it down. Um, but I think um if I'm gonna kind of say something um, you know, quite basic, um I would say basic. Because I think, you know, when when we have to find that little like in systemic moment, um, I like to start small. So I think um everyone can create a systemic moment. And it might be as simple as like something as simple as asking, um, well, who else notices that like this at home or at school? Or um what else have you noticed? Um, who else is affected by this? And um I think that can be applied to both like you know, thinking about leadership in a team and then also therapeutically as well. Um and I think that pause, that um to notice the patterns and relationships is enough to open up new possibilities. Um and even when the wider system isn't physically present, the curiosity you bring travels with you. Um, and that can really shape the conversation and the way people think about um the problem as well. And so I think that can be applied on both levels as well. And because I do still do some clinical work, um, you know, that that kind of curiosity that um can be applied to any of those kinds of ways of thinking.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

I love that. So it sounds like as a leader, you're curious about yourself coming in and what you're noticing and not noticing, and all those things. And also you're trying to encourage curiosity from your team as well about those patterns and what's happening. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Absolutely. I think um, you know, I often encourage people to experiment, to dip their toes, or even dive bomb into systemic thinking. Um, I think you don't have to be an expert to start asking relational questions uh or noticing patterns or exploring context. I think the small moments often lead to the most meaningful change. So I would say that you know, you don't have to go do a two-year course to be a systemic thinker. Sometimes it's just about noticing um some of that um curiosity for yourself and then how do you extend that to maybe the person sitting in front of you?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

And I can imagine, like as a leader of a team, you know, you're invited a lot to fix an individual, for example. If there's a problem happening, it's like go in and fix what's happening with that team member. But I can hear that your systemic frame is like helping you see that person in relationship with others, see that person within this system, the really complex system that they they sit in. And I can just imagine how that would then resonate into you being able to hold a different relationship with the team members too.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

A hundred percent. And you know, I um I I um caught a moment the other day where m that kind of systemic framework was like actually, you know, kind of leaking out through the team, and I was so proud. Um, because I was like, oh, it's actually it's happening, like all this work to kind of being this uh systemic leader is kind of um bearing fruit. Um, and you know, it was an example of I think um one of the clinicians was in like a case conference situation, and I was at I was present as well. And um I think she was having a a rough time with um uh with another uh clinician in the room um trying to defend her kind of formulation a little bit and she um re reported to me after that she felt a bit uncomfortable, that it was a bit tricky. And um uh I she was she was talking to me about this and I was like, Oh, I'm so sorry, I should have checked in with you after. And she was like, No, no, no, I'm in charge of myself. Um and I was like, wow, you know, people uh are kind of um really uh leaning into that. I'm in charge of myself and I can absolutely go and talk to you if I um if I needed to. So I think that was just a really great moment of like, oh cool, like this this is really um a foundation of of um how I'm building, like how I'm helping and support and being in part of this team.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Gosh, I love that, Alex. And um, because we've all had those moments in meetings, um, and they happen all the time, whether it's in your team or interagency work. There's always, you know, when people lean in with passion and there's different ideas. Um and so I just kind of love this filtering um that you're talking about from modeling, from questions, from kind of how you're um how you're showing up in your authentic style, that's helping other people see the importance of considering their responsibility for self as well.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yeah, absolutely. I think um to see that um kind of really be taken on um and for people to feel like oh, they are in charge of themselves, they do have free will, they they do, they can um, you know, like feel how they're feeling, and that's valid. Um, but they also don't expect me to be mind readers around how they're feeling. Um, and so I think that that's a really nice kind of um moment of, you know, them reminding me too, um, and catching me and you know, going back to old um templates of like, oh, I should have known. Um, so it's really nice when it's a shared um kind of way of being, um, and that it's not just one person. And that's the thing about um, you know, I think I've learned a lot about um being a leader is it's not my sole responsibility, it's a team responsibility. Um, and I think um that's been a really important thing as well, to unlearn like some of those templates of of what it means to be a leader. Um, so that it's been a really exciting, difficult, lovely, amazing journey.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

I love that. It sounds so powerful. I I just keep getting struck. I wrote down when you said observation of self, and I can really hear that in you, that that has been a massive learning for you to understand your own stuff, to understand, like you said, your templates and how they enter the space. Um, and yeah, I'm keen, like, is there I don't know if you want to it feel free to not share this if you like, but I know for me understanding my family of origin was super important, understanding when I was in a leadership position, understanding my experience previously of team leaders or authority figures, and then how that kind of sits with me when it comes to these tricky dynamic moments. So I'm keen to know from you like, is there anything that you have found quite helpful to um learn more about yourself that makes it easy to observe in those tricky moments? Oh yeah. Sorry, heavy question.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

No, it's a good one though, because it is so true. Um, being able to understand yourself, and I think if we if we're asking people to be self-leaders, and if I'm asking myself to be a self-leader, I need to understand like how I'm how like who I am and how I'm how I'm gonna lead. And a lot of that comes back to like family of origin stuff, right? So that's kind of been essential in um uh understanding and orientating um the kind of leadership identity and style I I wanted to um uh authentically be. Um, and so I mean, first of all, um I think if you do do the training, um being able to do your own genogram. has been I'd say an initially important, essential first step. That's a really powerful tool that has um I know a lot of clinicians do it with with their clients, um with the young people families um in front of them. But to do it for yourself um is I think really important. One, not only to understand who you are in your family context, um, but also to know what you're actually putting people through when um when you um do a geneogram with them. So I think um to be that kind of investigator of yourself is a really important step to take if you do want to think systemically. So that's been a big part of um knowing who I am as well and understanding that family my own family context. And you know what it is rich. There's a lot going on there. And so um knowing that and how I show up um uh for my team and for the young people that I do see I think um I owe I owe it to people too and I owe it to myself too um to know that like the stuff that might come out.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Um Alex I was just thinking to um I was just reflecting on my own journey with family of origin work as well as a systemic practitioner. And I I don't know if it's like this for you as well but also it's it's not like a a one-off like it's um like revisiting you know when stuff crops up or life changes or work roles change and um yeah I just I really value that part of being a family therapist that that's a core part of our training that we've got to pay attention to it and it's something that we kind of hold in mind as we journey through whatever our role is whether it's therapist or leader or you know community worker.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Agreed. I think yeah it is it's not it's not just an initial one and done this is this is work that we need to you know continue to toil with um you know I think to you know understand your and you have awareness of your emotional reactions to manage your anxiety to tolerate uncertainty to manage your curiosity under pressure and also stay connected to your values I mean these are tall orders for people um and for clinicians so we need to be able to understand um that family of orange and stuff that will crop up in the most unexpected places um and that's that's the power and and um and necessity of um systemic supervision I think as well so I'm a big advocate for that both you know individual and group I think both um you get different things from both but I'd say essential to um ongoing reflective and reflexive work.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

I love that so Alex there's probably clinicians out there thinking they might be all stages in their kind of systemic journey um any tips or tricks or anything that you want to kind of encourage people like I know we've talked a lot about supervision as being really um important but I guess I'm thinking about people that are stepping into leadership roles or moving kind of up in their career I don't know what what would you recommend or what's some some key things?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

I think uh there's a lot of things um people could do um I think in order to not for people to say oh that person's failing upwards um I'd really like people to I'd like to remind people that systemic practice is like actually incredibly accessible um and that you can actually start using it tomorrow and you don't have to have you don't have to abandon your kind of current therapeutic model.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

So I would say become curious about you know context and uh uh ask relational questions um you know think about who is affected by the problem and who influences it notice patterns rather than focusing solely on symptoms I would say that to be uh a good leader is one who examines themselves who um who can um notice those same kinds of things within their team um and you know I think that's why I'd say like you don't need to feel like an expert you can jump in you can stay curious and you can learn alongside the people that you're working with and I think um that kind of mindset is really important is to be a student for life to um remain um curious to lean in and I think um when it comes to being a leader um I I would say like yeah don't feel like you're holding the all the cards you you've got a whole team um and you know not one person um is gonna dictate how the system um uh inevitably goes we can make changes for sure but um you've got you've got a team that is also influencing and that's not just you pulling all the strings so I think um yeah stay curious think relationally um you keep an open mind around how you might approach and enter systems well what amazing list of um questions and I think the bit that stuck out to me was like it's okay to be kind to yourself too I think that is one thing when you're a leader you feel like you have to have it all together you have to like know all the things and um but I love that we're thinking about like this is like a growing journey you're always learning and yeah I just think that's a really nice reminder.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah lead yourself first you know self-leadership is a critical part of systemic practice you know I think that's um uh even like a small kind of um intervention like that with yourself is um something that um people can start to think about wow Alex I've just loved hearing your thoughts um and you know it's been such a privilege to you know have you be so open about um self-leadership and I think that's really authentic beautiful modeling for other leaders out there as well like Laura was saying she was just kind of picking up oh it's okay to be kind to yourself and to go on the journey and I um yeah I'm just imagining how many people are going to find this conversation useful. So we want to say thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Oh that's so my pleasure um you know I think you know if um if this can this conversation can you know help um someone who's either you know wanting to become a team leader or is just wanting to be a leader of self you know that reminder that this systemic work isn't just about changing someone else it's about noticing your influence and being intentional with it.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

I think that hopefully can strike a chord with some people I think it will be thanks so much Alex it's been such a pleasure having this chat with you and um yeah look forward to watching your adventure in that big wide world oh yeah stay tuned thanks Alex so much for having me see you bye okay so hi again everyone um now as you know um Laura and I just wanted to share a few of our reflections um on the podcast and um gosh there was so much in that and I was kind of madly scribbling some notes Laura as we were talking um I think my first reflection is just this idea that Alex had that everyone can create a systemic moment and it's okay to start small and just um how accessible systemic thinking and practice can be which makes my heart really warm because I would love to see systemic thinking and practice you know kind of spread far and wide um the other thing that really caught my attention was unlearning that's something I've talked about you know in other places as well and um sometimes we do need to unlearn a past framework or idea or kind of process to be open to to new ways of doing things which for Alex I kind of got the sense and I don't know if you'd agree but I kind of got the sense that you know it starts with self and when she said lead yourself first that just really struck um just really struck home with me.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Oh I agree I think um yeah that self-leadership piece was so powerful for me to hear and like I've been a leader before in Teams but I don't think I had the depth of um or even the ability to articulate all of those pieces that Alex was talking about. The bit that I loved I the bit that I loved was this observation of self. And Alex said to be the investigator of yourself to understand you so then you can observe yourself better when you're within that system or in that leadership role. And you know she spoke so bravely about how she's had to do her own digging around her family of origin and templates and you really see that that can pay off because then you can understand yourself better when you're entering into the relationships. Of course I love to pull out the practical ideas and yeah that idea that when you're in the heat or you're in the moment and you're managing the anxiety chuck the handbrake on pull the handbrake slow down be intentional stay curious and I just think that is so powerful if I think about particularly in a leadership position all the pressures that are coming in to your world but being able to slow down and just take a pause to get curious reorientate and get intentional again I just think they were really helpful tips and tricks that we can all take.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

It's definitely something that I wish um someone had brought to my attention or that I you know kind of naturally thought more of when I first moved into leadership. I think it maybe took me a little longer than it took Alex um so I'm just yeah I'm just like so happy that she was able to kind of share those thoughts and and think about you know all the people moving into that space and and that they get to hear how important it is.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

For sure. So I just think it was an amazing conversation I'm looking forward to hearing how it resonates with people. So to end our conversation Leanne we've been having to play with catchy endings because this is the awkward part of our um podcast. Beginning less awkward let me try out one here here I go with an ending. So um thanks everyone for listening and let's keep the systemic stories flowing.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

All right sounds great goodbye everyone see you