Cath Falco from Caldera Psychology

In Systemic Stories this month, Leonie and Laura speak with Cath Falco from the Northern Rivers, NSW.  Cath is a Psychologist and Clinical Family Therapist in private practice, Caldera Psychology.  In addition to private practice, Cath is currently completing her research PhD at the University of Sydney and is a Teaching Associate in the Phoenix Family Therapy Academy. 

In this conversation, we learn about: 

• Cath's research and learnings on ways to include relationships with place in systemic practice, alongside the impact of disasters and climate events.
• How we can learn from Indigenous and First People's worldviews about relationships with the world around us and the importance of reciprocity.
• The creation of narratives we build about our natural world.
• Resources that can help us and our clients repair relationships with place.
• Tips for therapists to find 'doorways' in their clinical work to support clients to explore these wider relationships.

And make sure you check out the show notes for the fantastic resources Cath recommends.

Graham, M. 2008. “Some Thoughts About the Philosophical Underpinnings of Aboriginal Worldviews.” Australian Humanities Review 45: 181–194.

Robin Wall Kimmerer

Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teaching of Plants

https://milkweed.org/book/braiding-sweetgrass

Tyson Yunkaporta

Sand Talk

https://www.textpublishing.com.au/books/sand-talk-9781922790514

Graham, M. 2023. The Law of Obligation, Aboriginal Ethics: Australia Becoming, Australia Dreaming. Parrhesia: A Journal of Critical Philosophy 37: 1–21.

https://parrhesiajournal.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/the-law-of-obligation-aboriginal-ethics-australia-becoming-australia-dreaming_mary-graham.pdf

Falco, C., Rhodes, P. and Dunk, J. (2025), Embracing Our More-Than-Human Family: Growing a Systemic Practice for Planetary Health and Multispecies Justice. Aust N Z J Fam Ther, 46: e70007. https://doi.org/10.1002/anzf.70007

For anyone interested in Profession Development to become a Climate-Aware Practitioner:

Psychology for a Safe Climate

https://www.psychologyforasafeclimate.org/

Cath's contact details:

calderapsychology.com.au

@caldera_psychology

This podcast isn't about a "right" way to be systemic.  It's about privileging multiple perspectives through sharing a range of systemic stories.

Laura is recording on the lands of the Turrbal People.  Leonie is recording on the lands of the Yugambeh People.

Acknowledgement of Country

We are honoured to be on the ancestral lands of the Traditional Owners of the areas we are recording from.  We acknowledge the First Australians as the Traditional Custodians of this continent, whose cultures are among the oldest living cultures in human history.   We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples across the nation.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hi everyone, and welcome to this episode of Systemic Stories, Practice and Possibilities. Today, Laura and I are chatting with Kath Falco, and Kath is a psychologist and clinical family therapist in private practice at Caldera Psychology. And in addition to private practice, Kath is currently completing her research PhD at the University of Sydney. And also, I'm very lucky to have Kath as a teaching associate in the Phoenix Family Therapy Academy advanced certificate in systemic family therapy and practice. And in the program, Kath teaches a module on ecosystemic therapy. It's really fantastic to have Kath as part of the team sharing these ideas with program participants. And I believe that Phoenix is leading the way as an after-credited training program, including this really important and essential topic. Now, Kath is coming to us from northern New South Wales. And so Laura, you want to say hi, and then we can get Kath to say hi.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Hi everyone. I am super excited about having Kath on. I have heard Kath speak about this topic a few times now, and every time it just catches my attention as something that I don't often think about. So I'm really keen to have Kath share this with everyone. So you can also have that moment of capturing something different in this space. So hi Kath.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Hey Laura. Hey Leone. Thanks for that. Nice warm welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Well, you are very welcome. And I know we're going to talk a lot about your work. Was there anything else that you kind of wanted to say by way of introduction?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I might just add with the the research PhD that one of the things that I'm using in that is systems theory. So it is like the application of systems theory to grassroots groups who've supported our communities through repeated disasters. So I'm on Bunjalung Country in northern New South Wales, and we have had repeated disasters up here. And that's really what inspired me to want to explore this space after working with people in private practice after the 2022 floods. I was just noticing people saying similar things, and it got me really curious about not just what psychology and an individual lens can offer, but actually what a systemic lens and a community focus could offer.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

And I remember when you were first talking to me about those ideas and how excited I was, similar to Laura, feeling like, how have I never thought about this stuff before? And where where is this in, you know, kind of training and development of therapists and particularly systemic therapists?

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Yeah, and I suppose because we were all caught off guard with the 2022 floods, we had flooded in 2017. And so that meant that there was this really strong feeling of, oh, when's the next one going to happen? And I suppose an acknowledgement that with the changing climate that there will be repeated disasters, not just for our community, but it'll most likely become more common across the country and the world, really.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah. Yeah. Kath, tell us a little bit about your growing up in Systemic Land. Because we first met you at the UQ program in the Masters of Mental Health Family Therapy. But tell us how did you even end up there? What happened? What sparked your interest with systemic thinking?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Oh, yeah. So um I have a professional background in child and adolescent mental health. So that was working a lot with um kids and teenagers in Kim's and at Kids Helpline. That's where I started, and in schools. So really the focus was on children and adolescents being the identified patient, being the client. And I think it did take a while, like maybe 10 years, and I had this feeling at some stage thinking, oh wow, I can do whatever I want with this, I can do all the things that I know how to do with a young person, with a child, but I'm just sending them back into a system. And I had this feeling that I wanted to work with the parents. So I could see the limitations of this individual lens, and and yeah, just having this feeling of after doing assessments, oh geez, the kids are all right. It's the parents I want to speak to. So great, that's how it started. And then so I did some professional development, really loved that, and was like, oh, this is home for me, actually. And then eventually got to the masters. I decided that I wanted to do some formal training in it. Yeah. Amazing. I love that. And that's a pretty common pathway, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah. Um actually, Kath, I don't know if you know, but there was some um one of the research projects that uh a UQ student completed was looking at what enticed people to study the family therapy, you know, at a um accredited program or master's level. And there were, there were three reasons, and that was one of them. And it was a really common experience for people to be working in allied health and working with kids, and then realizing I've got to support the whole family. I've got to help parents become a resource, I've got to maybe even move beyond the family in order to really support the young person who's been referred. So that's like just such a common experience.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, it kind of became the best way that I can serve this young person or child is by actually working with their parents or the system. Yeah. Yeah. And beyond that diet. But and that's why I think the systemic training is so great because you get to see the nuance and complexity of the whole system.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Yeah. And so, how did you start to move through like working in like a child and youth mental health setting, kind of studying family therapy? How did you move through like to where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 6:44

I feel like it was, it's like my lens just kept getting wider and wider. And one of my supervisors said to me, Oh, Kath, systemic thinking comes very naturally to you. And I didn't realize it at the time, like I wasn't quite sure at the time exactly what that meant, but now I can really see how yes, it does. And in fact, I it does come naturally to think very broadly and to hold a very broad bandwidth of information. So I kind of like being up there. Um, yeah, I have to say I've I have thought about this recently because my last name is Falco, which is Italian and it translates to hawk. And I do love that bird's eye perspective. And I was, I I kind of had this feeling, oh, it's in my namesake, actually, to be able to take that perspective and see very, very broadly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Oh, I love that, Kath. Uh, you know, I love a good um moment like that where we can relate um metaphors into our world.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

So this bird's eye view you've got, tell us a little bit about this extra layer that you're delivering to all of us. Like tell us a little bit about this kind of ecosystemic lens that um you've learned about and studied.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah, okay. It's kind of like um, I keep actually thinking in my mind the McGoldric multicontextual assessment tool where it extends out from the individual and then it goes right out broad to the larger system. So it's kind of like that, but another layer. And in fact, her new version of that, their new version of that includes that. Um ecological.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

But they like the layers you're talking about where it's like even political and societal, and so you're picturing it as cultural, and there's this another layer that involves their um place and you know, um, the environment that we live in as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, yeah. So I think definitely being informed by what has happened to the natural world through the disasters, being really aware of climate change, having my own climate anxiety and climate grief or ecological grief, um, having a drive to wanting to do more. And I suppose as well, just seeing it in my clients, um, their relationship with place and wanting to bring attention to that because it was helping explain some of what was happening for them in terms of their feelings, particularly post-disasters. Yeah. I don't know if I'm answering your question, Laura.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah, well, can I kind of ask it a bit of a follow-up question? Because I know you and I have talked about relationship to place, but before I spoke with you, I didn't really kind of understand it. And so I wondered, you know, for people who are listening who've never heard that phrase before, how how would you describe like the concept of relationship to place and how it matters for for everyone?

SPEAKER_00 10:09

I mean, I think one of the basic, most basic things we can do is just take a breath and realize that in that moment we are in exchange with plant life. So that is an exchange of plant breath for animal breath. We take a breath and we are in relationship with trees and and plant life. So to me, that reciprocity is um so I learned about that in this really great book. That's actually um I'm paraphrasing from Robin Wall Kimmera who wrote this great book, um, braiding sweetgrass. And she she is an indigenous scholar, a botanist, I think. And she talks about yeah, reciprocity. I mean, all um indigenous cultures talk about reciprocity with place. First nations people here in Australia have um like um it's country, so you know, caring for country, country cares for us, we must care for country, that kind of idea that's part of indigenous worldviews. So uh I suppose relationship with place we've kind of maybe forgotten, and I guess because there is a real human focus in our culture and and a cutting off from the living world through we could say through colonization, through capitalism, is would be another place where I would go with that. Uh it's it that's the repairing of relationship that kind of seems to me is part of the picture of the climate crisis. Yeah, so it's kind of like a remembering, that's how I've been seeing it, remembering that we're animals, that we are in exchange with the living world, that we are part of ecosystems. You know, Gregory Bateson was talked about that all the time. Um, but uh and so in in the same way that our modernity has lost that. So not indigenous cultures or indigenous people, but our modern society has led to this being cut off. And uh I did have a I did have something to say. So it's like a a a remembering of that relationship and repairing, repairing that relationship.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yeah. And Kat, as you were talking, it just got me thinking about family therapy and and you know, systemic practice and but thinking about family therapy, and you know, in the early years, the the developments were really around family structures, you know, patterns that people got stuck in, how do we perturb those patterns and and then shifting, you know, through social constructionism to meaning making. And I just, which are all fabulous, and you know, I love all those ways of working because there's always something useful. Um, but I just wonder if we kind of went down um through thinking about behavior and thinking about meaning making, if that also in systemic practice, we lost the connection to place and thinking about the ecosystem because we were almost kind of got stuck in smaller systems.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, I that there are writers scholars that will argue that family therapy scholars that talk about that. Um I feel like you know, family therapy exists in a culture, in our culture that is anthropocentric, so centers the human. So our all all the disciplines, like we can't really expect family therapy. Well, may perhaps we can expect family therapy to be different given our origins, but it does mean pushing against a particular narrative that is human-centric, so it is an act of rebellion in a way, or more working in the margins to include the living world in a profession. Um, but definitely possible and I would argue really needed now.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

I love this, Kath. And I'm hearing these layers to our relationship with place, like biologically, even all the way through to kind of our emotional experience. I just think that's so awesome. Tell us a little bit about what you've seen around how uh relationship with place has kind of impacted your clients, or how you kind of have seen, you know, even the disasters impact um clients' relationship with place.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Yeah, I guess because I live in a regional area, I live on 12 acres, and so there's lots of um plant and and animals around here. I think that there's this real both end where people in this area, because it is very beautiful, are both nourished by the natural world, so kind of find their way here in the caldera in this space, in this region, the northern rivers, because of its rivers and because of its creeks and because of the mountain or lumber, that's um a sacred site. So I think the humans here are very nourished by their relationship with place. And so it's quite it can be very unsettling and devastating then when there is destruction to parts of people's um, I don't want to call it environment, but you know, the it is the living world. Sometimes I feel environment reduces it too much, that makes it to be too much on the outside and and misses that actually wear in connection with it. But yeah, so so to see a place be devastated by a disaster, whether it's fire or flood or drought or landslips, uh, or even severe weather events, which we're seeing more of too. That's you know, really hard. So people will have feelings about that. And I feel like that's the that's the piece that I've been able to bring in into therapy sessions of naming or kind of helping people reorient themselves to the feelings that they have as a reflection of their love for place, so the the grief or the sadness, even all the anger, you know, there was anger after the floods. Um and fear, of course, loads of uncertainty. Because because of that relationship, people felt like they did know how the river moved, but it's changing, and so now people didn't lift their belongings up high enough. So there was this real um, oh gosh, when's it gonna happen again and how bad is it gonna be? So I suppose, yes, in terms of reframing people's feelings, or like I was saying, helping them reorient them to that's because they're in relationship with place, and that's because of the love that they have. Yeah, so it's that both end.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, I love that, Kath. It's like um helping them bring meaning, I guess, to some of those complex feelings that they're having, and um, particularly when there's that fear and uncertainty. You've also spoken to me before about you know how people m start making decisions about what they do with their life because of their relationship with place as well. And I think that's really interesting lens to understand.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Yeah. Yeah, there uh have definitely been people move away because of the volatility of weather and um yeah, uh and that uncertainty. There's a real, I think, invitation for I was gonna say people in this region, but I would say all humans to become more comfortable with uncertainty. Um yeah. What were you well? I don't think I'm answering your question though, Laura.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

You are cat. I think I can feel you're in your groove, and I'm just like got my thinking face on because I just think it's well, something that I perhaps haven't asked people before. So, you know, when people talk about say they've migrated from a different area into a new area, I probably have never asked them around their connection to you know the environment or to their place as part of that decision making. And I just think that's a really valuable extra layer that I could ask questions about.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah, definitely. So I think uh what I some of the things that I have done with my practice is so if I'm doing a geneogram, I will ask people about where they have lived or area like um yeah, places where they've lived in the past that they feel connected to, uh, or even if they don't feel connected to it, and just kind of tracking if there has been a movement around place and and in timelines as well. So seeing where people have moved. I did talk about this in um the paper that I wrote where as I was reading, I could see, and also there's another scholar who talks about this, that family therapy is really good at time. And we do our timelines and we think about intergenerational patterns, but we're not so much thinking about place, and that there's some problems with that. And and I'm not sure why that's happened, probably just like a cultural thing. Uh, but definitely good to also balance that out, the temporal and space or place.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Yeah. I feel like to do that, like I'm thinking about my practice, because I often will ask where people are from, particularly if they've immigrated to Australia or moved. And you know, but I've done that, whether that's through the geneogram or timeline, I've done it more just as tracking stressors, like thinking about what it's meant to move or teacher culture stuff, you know, like if if you've come. I I don't think I've ever said to someone, um, okay, so you moved, you know, from New South Wales to Queensland. And what was it like for you? Like, did you feel, you know, connected? And I don't even know like what language you would you would use. Did you feel like at peace where you were? How do you feel about um you know the place where I feel like even now I'm kind of fumbling for words, but I know that I should be curious about this with people.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

One of the things, one of the ways that I have asked that is in terms of moving to a place, do your feet do you feel your roots have descended into this place? And that's beautiful. Well, I like because it's talking about trees and roots. Yeah, I like it. Um, and I think there's other relationships that people have, like with mountains or with trees, or with rivers or creeks, that we can be curious about. And it's probably a shift in our thinking around people are located not just in people families, but nature families and living world families, and having that there in our thinking, which is that where that broader systemic lens comes in, that we might then start to think about asking a question about a person's relationship with um a a tree or a mountain or or if we hear it even we can maybe explore it a bit more. One of the things that I think we might end up doing in in this space is uh keeping an eye out for doorways because it is a little bit new and yeah uh it's like keeping an eye out for doorways from that bigger place where we're listening out for any kind of connection. You know people talking about going to the beach for us you know to because it brings them joy and or going to the park. Yeah kind of thickening that narrative about what is it like being in the park with the trees and sitting on the grass um or feeling the wind or people talk about this kind of naturally all the time. So we can kind of thicken a narrative about that.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Oh I love that Kath. I think and it's such an untouched resource I think that we could um yeah really explore that I was thinking even about how that connection and that relationship to place is formed. Like I'm a real beach family with my kids we go the beach all the time but other families are like skiing families and they go the snow all the time and I just think um yeah it's really even interesting how families kind of also create experiences that impact the people's relationship to place.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah that reminds me what I was saying before about a lot of the reason why you know people might move down here is to well have literally space like 12 acres as opposed to a city block which is pretty cool um but because of love for country or love for place and I think that yeah we take our families on holidays to be in nature like you were just saying so there is that um maybe unconscious kind of reconnecting going for a swim being in the ocean and that that's how we nourish ourselves look after ourselves feel joy in those spaces you know and that's actually really important because it is a it is a heavy topic there are big feelings that people have so it's like again that both end we can be resourced and feel that that um love and that joy that comes from I don't know such simple things like smelling a rose or like feeling a breeze or the sun in the winter yeah or those moments yeah that that we're actually nourished by that and that can help with being with some of the more difficult feelings like grief around a species going extinct or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Laura when you were talking I um started to think about my connection to place and and where I learned that. So I do love the beach for holiday um but I'm more kind of in the country and I I love hiking um nothing kind of too big or adventurous but I really love going on a bushwalk or you know up around Tamarine Mountain or northern New South Wales. But that's how I grew up too and so I was really curious Laura you know um did you as a kid go to the beach and and what role is you know kind of generational patterns around how how we connect because for me coming from my ancestors are from the UK um so I'm not coming from a First Nations perspective but thinking still about how has my family influenced my connection to place.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah and the stories around it as well in terms of it being a meaningful moment. I just think about all the messages I give my kids when I'm in the ocean loving my life and I'm like telling them how amazing this is and I can just yeah just picture that that's gonna um imprint on them right around um yeah yeah their experience of place.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Doing the same yeah and I think uh where you went to there Leone and how you asked Laura that question that is that can be a therapeutic question or a question that we asked asking our clients about what what memories do they have from when they were kids around um having beautiful times in nature where where did they love did do they have a favorite place as a child of where they went where they could be with nature and feel their body and feel that connection yeah we I I think that's a great thing to explore well I love that and I'm gonna do more of that definitely Kat in my practice I think like I said I think that's just an untapped narrative that yeah we could do so much more with and I feel like too um that fits really well Laura Kath you would know Laura and I do a lot of solution focused work and thinking about resources and area of life that are going well and and like you said it's it can be very big and heavy and also there's joy in connecting to nature and how do we you know how can we pay attention to that in ways that help our clients nourish themselves even more yeah yes and I want to come back to the idea of reciprocity so there is this kind of critique in ecotherapy that talks about I guess being mindful of not just resourcing ourselves from nature in a kind of extractive way but also like giving thanks or having gratitude or acknowledging the reciprocity of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

And I would say actually and I also learned this from the the from the Robin Walkimmera book um she has this great line where she's talking to her students and she says I'm gonna really paraphrase here uh hand up anyone who has who who loves earth who love she might say mother earth and everyone puts their hand up because they're all ecology students. And then she says put up your hand if you can feel Mother Earth Mother Earth's love for you and no one put their hand up or not many and she talks about that as um as part of that reciprocity but also like feeling that love from from earth and all the abundance that we have yeah that that that that's part of it. So I guess I'm just raising that in terms of that idea of remembering that it's relational that it's that it's not just us resourcing the humans resourcing themselves that it's that it's having doing that with gratitude and acknowledging the love that's there. I live in the Northern rivers and I can hear a bit of a northern rivers vibe sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

No I I love I'm loving that Kath and I think it it fits really well for us as relational therapists doesn't it yeah it does it does yeah relationally about place.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And I I even go one step further and say I feel like nature loves it when we do that like loves it when we kind of um feel it from them.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

I love it I'm picturing I'm picturing Moana you know how Moana has the wave and it like I just got Moana vibes.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah you've got Moana and I've got book I'm like ha I need to know this book this oh yeah yeah yeah it is it is an excellent book I was thinking Laura when you were talking about being in the ocean um I always laugh when I'm in the ocean because it's like I'm playing I always feel like oh Mother Earth's like playing with me she's throwing me around and just that kind of surrender. I really love that about swimming in the ocean.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Oh I love that Kath. I know there's probably a lot of practitioners out there that are hearing this and maybe it's blown their mind like it did the first time I've spoken about it.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

What are some of like your top tips um for therapists that want to think more about this with clients or um you know just trying to hold this this frame um in our work yeah uh so I would say a few things one is um when we're talking about relationship with place to as living in Australia although maybe people around the world live in um listen to this podcast I would say yes reading indigenous scholarship about relationship with place and there is good um scholars who write about this like Tyson Young Porter wrote a book called Sand Talk when he talks about systems systems theory and systems thinking actually in that um Mary Graham also talks about relationship with place and there's loads of others so I think um grounding ourselves in all and learning about indigenous worldviews is helpful. I think as well clinicians being with their own ecological emotions, their own grief about place, what's happening changes um whether or not you've been through a disaster or you're just vicariously being affected by looking at your phone and being on social media and seeing what's happening like you know heat waves that are happening right now in the in Europe 3000 people getting evacuated because of fires so uh yeah we're kind of exposed now that's kind of an indirect way of being exposed to um disasters and climate change so I think yeah being prepared to be with our own feelings is really important. I you know that's that um self-based therapist perspective too that we do in in systemic practice. So that's another one the the third one I mean there's lots that I could say but the third one would be in session slowing down as something really good. I think that that helps kind of to see the doorway or to even you know intuitively feel the doorway depending on what someone's talking about whether it it is around climate change or relationship with place. Because I see the climate crisis and it has that there has been some reports saying that oh there will be like an imminent mental health crisis after this but I've always seen it as it's a relationship crisis and so attend repairing and attending to that relationship seems like it would be a good thing. And I guess also kind of seeing it's because of the um that cutoff thing that I was talking about before that has led to this situation. So yeah slowing down means that we can be with the largeness of the feelings we can look out for those doorways and give space to what can be a pretty big and beautiful place.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

I love that Kath. Those are top tips and I've written them down so I can remember them. So thank you for sharing that. Yeah um Kath, as we wrap up I just want to say thank you for being part of this and sharing this perspective and I'm super excited to hear about your research and the outcome of that um to add to this perspective that you're offering and I am going to go away and do some reading myself. So um yeah I know that you said that you might share some of those resources. So um we'll share that with the listeners which would be amazing.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Yep. Yeah. So Kath, a a big thanks for me too you know that I love having these conversations with you and I I feel like I learned something new every time I have a conversation with you about this. And I I definitely you know kind of got some real gems today and like Laura just so interested in um kind of reading the stuff that you're talking about and growing my worldview. So thank you and I yeah I just know so many people are gonna really benefit from um thinking about this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

That's really good to hear thanks so and yeah it was really good to be on here. Thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

You're very welcome pleasure thanks Kathy thanks Laura thanks Leone bye don't go anywhere okay okay I'll pause the record we did this um okay Laura so it's that time again after our conversation um for us to kind of think about the parts that really stood out or are catching our attention right now just as we finish the conversation so uh can I start or okay so I oh gosh there was so much um but one of the things that has really kind of hit home is when Kath was talking about the importance of indigenous scholars um and indigenous worldviews and I just know um that we've got so much more to learn in this space and that this is uh a growing learning space for us. And so I'm really appreciative that she's going to send through um some resources um and we're gonna add those to the show notes and I know you and I will both be accessing those. And then the um one of the other things that really struck me was thinking when she said um the climate crisis is more like a relationship crisis and thinking relationally and and coming back as family therapists and thinking about our relationship with place and and with ecosystem and um the the richness of that thinking about the reciprocity and thinking you know how that can just really deepen all of the work that we do instead of just thinking about for example you know a genogram or you know connecting to nature as a strategy just how much deeper that can go.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

For sure. I was thinking after our conversation how big this piece is and I remember thinking that when I first heard Kath speak and sometimes it's a lot to digest and hold and I think that's okay because I think we can sit with that and find our own path of how we want it to sit in our practice as therapists. One thing that Kat said that I thought was super helpful was these little doorway moments. So how can we have our ears open to hearing you know through a story someone's ta saying opening a doorway to talk more about this relationship with place. And I also really love this idea that we can use it as a resource and a strength and a moment of joy and something to really um yeah thicken these narratives of um you know things that we value and things that we want to do more of in our life. So yeah I thought there was some great tips there. But I also wanted to acknowledge that this is a big lens to hold. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

So I loved when she because of that I love when she was saying slow down. Yeah yeah it's okay to slow down and um I'm picturing her as that hawk kind of you know really looking down and and kind of working out without rushing where to go. So I hope yeah I hope that kind of resonates with everyone when they hear it.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

And as we know because we are part of someone's system when we come in as a therapist even us just doing our own learning about this idea of place, doing our own learning about our own relationship with place, that's going to make a difference to how we interact with it when it comes in into sessions and into conversations. Yeah definitely so yeah thanks to Kath. It was a great conversation and again I'm looking forward to learning more um as we move through the information and talking to Kath again in the future sounds great so then that brings us to the very end to um the awkward ending that we love and I'm gonna say what were we gonna say oh yeah join us next time for another systemic story.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Perfect thanks Laura see you everyone thank you