Hospitality x Disruption: HXD212
HXD212 turns up the heat with real conversations that challenge comfort and spark action. Hosted by Thibault Catala, founder of Catala Consulting, the show brings together leaders, creators, and rebels shaping what comes next across hospitality, AI, technology, and life design. No scripts. No filters. No polished talking points. Just curious minds, honest dialogue, and ideas pushed one degree further. To the boiling point.Human-to-Human. At 212°F.
Hospitality x Disruption: HXD212
Can Psychedelics Make You a Better Leader? Sophie Spitzer | Ep. 007
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From being terrified of substances to building safe legal psychedelic journeys. Can psychedelics become the next frontier of mental health, leadership, and human transformation, or are we still dangerously romanticising something we barely understand?
🎙 Episode 007 of HXD212: unfiltered conversations with leaders, rebels, and builders shaping what's next.
Sophie J. Spitzer, founder & CEO of Kinisi, did not come into psychedelics through hype, spirituality, or trend-chasing. She came through systems thinking.
After spending years building infrastructure, from pandemic response systems supporting millions of PCR tests to entrepreneurship education programmes reaching thousands of teenagers across Austria, Sophie realised something important: the most important infrastructure we are missing is not technological. It is human.
That insight led her into the world of psychedelic-assisted coaching, legal psilocybin truffle journeys, somatic work, preparation, safety, and integration. Her work now focuses on designing the right conditions for real transformation, while also helping build verification standards for safe psychedelic practice across Europe.
In this episode, Thibault Catala and Sophie J. Spitzer explore:
◼️ How Sophie went from substance-related trauma to working with psychedelics
◼️ The difference between recreational use and therapeutic intention
◼️ Why psychedelics are powerful, but also dangerous when done badly
◼️ What psilocybin does to the brain, the ego, and old patterns
◼️ Why preparation and integration matter more than the journey itself
◼️ The role of the coach, guide, therapist, and shaman
◼️ Why safety, screening, and trust are non-negotiable
◼️ The risks of fake shamans, poor facilitation, and psychedelic scams
◼️ How psychedelics can support leadership, creativity, and self-awareness
◼️ Why founders and high performers often struggle with control
◼️ The link between trauma, ambition, leadership, and emotional regulation
◼️ Why microdosing is popular, but still not fully proven by science
◼️ The future of psychedelic-assisted therapy in Europe
◼️ Why psychedelics are not a quick fix
◼️ The simple somatic practice Sophie recommends to everyone: shaking
Resources talked about:
David Nutt Chart (harm done to self and others)
• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21036393/
• https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Graph-printed-in-The-Economist-based-on-research-by-David-Nutt-et-al-on-behalf-of-the_fig1_272480545
Nature Mental Health
Majority of insights happens (days, weeks) after the journey
States Of Mind
MAPS
🎧 Follow Sophie & Kinisi:
Sophie Spitzer on LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophie-j-spitzer/
Founder & CEO of Kinisi: https://www.kinisi.life/
Head of PsyStandard: https://psystandard.com/
🔥 Follow Thibault & HXD212:
Follow Thibault Catala on LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/thibaultcatala
Follow HXD212 on Instagram. https://instagram.com/hxd212
Follow HXD212 on TikTok. https://www.tiktok.com/@hxd212podcast
Catala Consulting. https://catalaconsulting.co.uk
Revenue Management Online Course. https://learn.thibaultcatala.com/revenuemanagement
#Psychedelics #MentalHealth #Leadership #FounderMindset #Coaching #TraumaHealing #SelfAwareness #HXD212
Disclaimer:
• psychedelics are illegal drugs in most countries
• we are not medical professionals and not endorsing the use of illegal drugs - our conversation is only for information and education purposes
• psychedelics are not for everyone
• if anyone seeks out to do a psychedelic journey they must seek professional advice
Welcome to HXD212 with Sophie Spitzer
SPEAKER_00Alright, welcome back for another episode of HXT212. So today I'm joined by Sophie Spitzer and she's the founder and CEO of Kinesy. You know, I've I've built this podcast in the in the mindset of exploring new ideas to see what's next, to see and to talk to people about innovation, about what's trendy, and to see what people are building, what the future is about. Okay. And I had some this kind of curiosity around psychedelics and mental health as well, which I believe is a very important topic nowadays. So I invited Sophie for the podcast and to give you an introduction. Sophie, she's actually a system architect. She spent a decade building infrastructure, such as a pandemic response systems that coordinate 30 million PCR red tests, entrepreneur education programs that reach 11,000 teenagers across Austria, that's a massive one, and the leadership development in tech and startups. And a few years ago, she had a realization the most important infrastructure we are missing isn't a technological one actually, it's a human one. It's a systems and conditions we need to help people actually transform. And that's a very important one. And that insight led her to psychedelics, not because she's spiritual or trendy, even we can talk about it later, but because she's an engineer asking how do we design the conditions for real lasting change. And today she ran Kinesy, which offers one-to-one legal psalosybin journeys paired with rigorous coaching and integration, and she also heads Psi Psy standard, working to set verification standard for all this work is done across Europe, which I believe is also very important to set up some structure. So she doesn't believe in shortcuts, she believes in building systems that actually work. So Sophie, welcome to HXT212.
SPEAKER_01Hi Thibault, great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00Excellent. So my name is Thibaut Catara, I'm the founder of Catala Consulting, and this is HXT212. Alright, so I want to understand better about um what is psychedelic? What what do they do? What they cannot do, what they can do, what it can help, um, as well what coaching matters, uh, as well why integration is such an important topic, and if it could become a new model of medicine. So today I'm uh that's why I also invited you because I want to explore this. Okay.
Sophie’s Origin Story
SPEAKER_00So yeah, first of all, because you you saw in the introduction um that you came from a different background, and how did you arrive in this work, which is totally different?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um to this day, I actually sometimes can't believe that my you know my family now thinks that I'm dealing with drugs. Um, just to you know, already put out the put out the stigma there, which is clearly not true, not the case. But um how I I stumbled across it, and it's so so interesting on multiple layers. But the the thing that I really never get get tired of pointing out is that behind the thing that I rejected the most, that I was most afraid of in my life, lay my future career path, lay the foundation of what I'm now thinking is actually the start of my career. So we have to go back a little and I'm always asking people you want the long or the short version. I think we have quite some time, so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna opt for the middle version. And basically, my my my journey to psychedelics started when I was 15. I was um at my first exchange semester in the US, it was my biggest dream to be able to be there. My parents could, you know, uh barely afforded me to go there, and I was there, and it was, you know, I was just so full of happiness that this worked. And then two weeks into being in this new high school on a different continent, uh, a person came up then like was gonna be a friend, and she was like, Sophie, do you smoke? And I was like, interesting. Teenagers in the US sm sm no, sorry, she said, so do you want to smoke? Let's meet on the weekend. And I was like, interesting. Teenagers in the US smoke only on the weekends, like coming from Austria with 15, you know how to smoke a cigarette, like most I guess back in back in my day. And um, I was like, okay, sure, let's meet, you know, I want to make friends and I can smoke a cigarette with you. So turns out that um I was there on the weekend and it was not a cigarette, which I only realized after having smoked this Mariana joint like a cigarette.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I at this point I didn't know what Mariana was, I had no idea. And I collapsed, I fainted, and I lost consciousness. And I I still get get goosebumps when I think about it because I, you know, at 15 different continent, no parent, biggest life dream, you know. And when I woke up, I was I I I I couldn't believe what happened. And the the thing that like I really thought I was going to die. So I it it this moment was so deeply traumatic for me that it really ingrained in my nervous system that ever since that moment, which I obviously survived, um with the terrible night, to be frank, um, I never touched anything any longer anymore. Um, of course, I I was accustomed to alcohol and cigarettes, which are not drugs, um, but exactly. But yeah, so I I I for all my life growing up, I was the person who said I would rather die than take substances. Like, no, no way. And I would also cut friends out of my life that started doing it, you know. And um, yeah, uh I but the the second layer to this story is that I didn't just not touch it, but I had revolved a trauma around it. Every time I saw people on TV doing drugs, I got a panic attack. Okay, and I didn't realize that this wasn't normal for me, you know, everyone does gets that. And yeah, so it was only until I met my now fiancé that things changed, which is around about three years, three and a half years ago. And I also always think it's so funny, you know. When I met my fiance, I started taking drugs, which is also, you know, um just a pointed way of of um speaking about how you know society views this, which is absolutely um not the case fundamentally.
What Psychedelics Actually Are
SPEAKER_01And yeah, he we we started talking about psychedelics and psychedelics here. Specifically, I'm referring to mushrooms. So maybe to also already bring in, you know, what are psychedelics. So there are two forms of psychedelics, they're classical psychedelics like psilocybin, which is magic mushrooms, magic truffles, lst or ayahuasca, DMT. So these are the classical, and then there are non-classical psychedelics, which are now more in use, like the anesthetic um ketamine or the inactogen um MDMA. So um, yeah, but now I'm specifically referring to psilocybin, so magic mushrooms and yeah, um my fiance like realized okay, wow, she she like it she really has a trauma around it. Like we can't even talk about this. But he also had the feeling Sophie is so interested in in um psychology, she's so interested in human in the psyche, right? Maybe it's something for her. Okay, and then he'd like with baby steps, like my nervous system could not hold more than 10 minutes of YouTube content on drugs. Like I would like I needed to close the laptop always because I couldn't always. Yeah, and and that's because you know, now I talk about it, but I couldn't even talk about it three and a half years ago. So I also like this is also why I'm so passionate about what I'm doing right now because I understand what it is to be on the other side. I was on the other side, and so yeah, then um, as as you know, the life headed shortly after Leo,
The Science That Changed Her Mind
SPEAKER_01my fiancee, he you know, baby step introduced me into the theoretics of it, and I also understood frameworks like the David Nutt chart, for example, gray chart. Maybe you can link it also in the show notes, is by Professor David Nutt. He's a he's one of the world's leading researchers on it, and you see drugs, um, harm done to self and harm done to others based on drugs. Guess what number one is? I don't know, alcohol is the worst.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so not surprised.
SPEAKER_01And there are like 10 listed, and the least one mushrooms.
SPEAKER_00Is it is it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's it's crazy. And going into my first psychedelic journey, this was this was what I had in mind. I was like, there are researchers that do this, you know, I trust them. There are thousands, there's science, you know. I was holding on to science so hard. So in my first journey, I was really, I mean, of course, I was informing myself, but for me, it was really overcoming this deep-rooted fear of dying. For me, taking a substance equaled dying. So the first journey was just about being brave and overcoming my biggest fear in life. And again, I I get goosebumps thinking about it because I'm still to this day so proud of like the moment for months before I was conditioning myself like athletes. I'm gonna take it and I'll be fine. I'm gonna take it and I'll be fine. And I took it and I was fine. And I I still remember, you know, like doing this like mental clap when I took it, and I was like, okay, now it started, it's over. And like it in my mind, the the the the thing was done, but of course it only then started. And um yeah, as you then as you already read in my in my um introduction, I've always been interested in systems change, I've always had this like impact at heart, but it never truly felt like that's it. And when I in my first psychedelic journey experienced what I experienced in that moment already, I knew this is what I want to bring into the world, that's it, and yeah, that's when it started.
SPEAKER_00Very interesting. You're a bit like the um the Batman, you know, Batman? Because Batman he is called Batman and he's is uh he's disguised as a as a bat because he's he's super scared of bats. So your own he made his his biggest fear as his biggest strength, and that's I think that I will call you Batman. I'm taking that.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, thank you. New nickname, I love it. Yes, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
Healing vs Partying: Why Intention Matters
SPEAKER_00No, I see how it can it can it can be built and or you had this kind of realization that it was actually quite um healing behind, and you were as well looking into the science. So I believe there is also this um um stigma around it, um, that there is a psychedelic for entertainment and psychedelic for um healing as well. Can you explain the difference between the two and uh is this still the case?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so as with all things in life, and that's also one of the biggest things I've learned in my past years, is it's all about intentions, it's all about why you do what you do. And to give you an example, somebody can be at a um at a party, like let's say a rave, I think that's a good example, where there's like really beautiful ambient music. Somebody can take a mushroom to go party, to go crazy, you know. The intention is to party, and then people do it. They they they take it. It it you know it's you for some, not for everyone, of course. Also an important point I'm gonna make in a second, but you can take it for party if your intention is to party. Another person can take the exactly the same amount, exactly the same substance at this rave and say, I want to go deep, I wanna, I wanna dance and be with myself today and just release whatever I want to release, and this can be therapeutic then. Okay, so it really is about the intention. At the same time, I want to say that there is, of course, a very clear case, and I would always advocate for people to, if especially if they do it for the first time, to do therapeutic, and um, I need to explain therapeutic also in a moment, um, or or or more healing journeys in a safe environment. Like clearly, I'm not saying take mushrooms on a dance floor and in think that you're gonna be healed. No, clearly not, right? You have to approach this in maximum safety. I can speak to this in a moment if you want to, but the core point I want to make is it the differentiation is primarily intention, and also this is how you can guide when you go into a professionally held psychedelic journey with a coach or a therapist, you can guide your intention. Like your intention is like a compass. What do you want to shed light on? What do you want to see?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that's um that's important that you you you mentioned this um
Are Psychedelics Legal in Europe?
SPEAKER_00because they are psychedelic. So when you go to the first of all, it's very important to mention that most of the substances that you mentioned are sometimes illegal in uh in some in some countries. So there are some specific countries which are a bit more uh flexible around the medicine and not the drug as an uh a polydrug, but more like a medicine. So so there is um that's very important to mention.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let me maybe so basically psychedelics or these substances in a not clinical setting are illegal almost everywhere. So by default, you can think it's illegal except for the Netherlands. Okay, so in Europe, except for the Netherlands, there are some exceptions also in in um in the US, but in the in the Europe case it's only legal, fully legal in the Netherlands. And here, psilocybin truffles, so not mushrooms but truffles. It's actually interesting, legal loophole. Everything that is above ground is forbidden, okay, but everything that is below ground is okay. Okay, yes, and psilocybin truffles, like they have the same same same active ingredient. The one is just above ground, the other one is below. So, like it is illegal in non-clinical settings, but in clinical settings now more and more legalization happens. And here, for example, just to quickly cover this like really, really amazing thing that happened in 2025, which is Germany for the first time um granted a compassionate use program. So for people that are in dire need for these um treatments now can get special access. I mean, it's super limited, but in the clinic Mannheim and in the Ovid Klinik in in Berlin, of course, you have to go through a rigorous process, but these these medicines really are, and here the intention is medicine, yeah, you know, are being used in Europe, and that's that was really groundbreaking.
SPEAKER_00I think that's so it's evolving, and we can see the society starting to uh to to embrace it a bit more, to I mean, to be more and more curious. There's a lot still a lot of taboo and stigma around it, I believe. Of course,
Psychedelic Coaching vs Therapy
SPEAKER_00but uh it's getting there. And what what you refer to is mostly the um the psychedelic assisted coaching as well.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00Can you tell me a bit more about what exactly it is?
SPEAKER_01So here we have to differentiate, and that's what I just meant about therapy, right? So I'm really cautious with the word therapy because when we think about therapy, you know, it in a classical sense, there's a diagnosis and there is a goal, right? And PAT, psychedelic assisted therapy, is only pertaining to clinical settings, which is only in clinical trials right now, which is interestingly also the main source where people now get access to these um treatments in a safe setting. Anything that is not in a clinical setting, I personally always refer to as coaching. So I would I I think we should go with coaching now because that's also where my my company is. But basically, there is um therapeutic frameworks that are being used, but you should not call it therapy because it's not classical therapy, right? So um, yeah, but retreats, for example, do um coach these coachings, um, or psychedelics said coaching of one-on-one, like kinesi. So um, yeah.
Why the Coach Matters
SPEAKER_00And can you explain a bit more the the role of the substance itself versus the role of the coach as well?
SPEAKER_01You see, beautiful, beautiful question. They really go hand in hand. Um the coach is such an important factor of a psychedelic of a guided psychedelic journey. And a recent study in um Medical Nature magazine, I will I will you can link it um below. Actually, uh this April came out where they where they ask 185 practitioners, MDs, clinical, non-clinical, underground, what are the main factors that um that what are the main factors that are that help the out the outcome? Thank you. That helped the outcome. And number one is therapeutic alliance, okay, which is the rapport you feel with your coach. Why? When you are in a psychedelic state, you are it's and I'm simplifying this extreme, you are very open. And the number one thing, and this is also what kinesis build on, is you need safety, you need safety and nervous system safety. And how do you get that? We're social animals, it's about co-regulation, it's about attunement. So your coach, if the coach is attuned, they will be your safety net in the moment. So it's not just about the preparation phase where you go into your topics that when you want to talk about, you know, your your maybe your trauma timeline, etc. But it's really about feeling safe. And I think it's also logical to think if you feel safe, you can let go more, and then you have deeper outcomes.
SPEAKER_00I understand. So that's interesting because well, um it's very similar to I've done some coaching as well. I've done some uh I had some people uh helping me on the on the coaching side without any substance. Um is it similar and what the substance can do more than just simple coaching? You see what I mean? Do you see the difference between us too? Or what's what the substance will bring more than just a coaching or regular therapy?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, of course. So
What Psilocybin Does to the Brain
SPEAKER_01that is also a great question that and I need to expand a little here because we need to go into um neurology, neurochemistry. So also super simplified terms. When you take a I'm specifically referring to uh to psilocybin now, magic mushrooms, truffles. When you take that, your brain is basically flooded with something like serotonin. Okay, and serotonin, you know, we have hormones in our bodies, neurotransmitters, and serotonin is here for um mood regulation, for perception, but also satiation and many other things, right? They never just have one um one way of working. And what that causes in your brain is that your default mode network, maybe you've heard of this before, the activity of the activity of that is tremendously reduced. And what that does, we so basically when we we are in our our brains very simplified, work in two modes. Either you work, either you're in the focus mode, you focus on something, or you're in the default mode when you're like under the shower, daydreaming, etc. But in this focus, in this default mode, we have like the automations, but we also have the depression, the anxiety, the looping, the rumination. So when you reduce the default mode network, your brain, when you reduce the the noise of the default mode network, your brain can actually think not clearly, but it it can it's many people say it's like a breath of fresh air. All this like negative self-talk, this is also autobiographical. I had this happen to me in the past, it's reduced. So you're basically moving away a little from your ego, from your sense of identity. And that talk therapy is there, or talk or coaching is very hard to get there if if at all. So your patterns of identity are are loosened up. So you know, if you a lot of times when you're stuck on something, you you can't see your way out because you are stuck, and when you take psychedelics, it loosens up, it it gets more flexible. You also have a lot of more divergent thinking, higher cognitive flexibility. You can be, you know, you see things from a completely different angle. And one other thing that I want to mention here very much.
SPEAKER_00Just before you go there, because I I
Creativity, Running, and Altered States
SPEAKER_00I feel that uh we can touch this kind of feeling uh because I got all my ideas under the shower or when I run, you see, and uh and uh and I and I feel that I don't know why, but every time I go running, I come back here and I have like thousands of ideas. So it's like this kind of creative thing. So I feel the same thing here. That's something similar, I guess.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, especially like if you get in the state of in a flow state, yeah, you know, for running. I mean, when when you run, when you do sports, other things also happen, endorphins, etc. But that's when you really get out of your head, quite literally. And yes, that or breath work. I I think I know you do breath work, you can also reach psychedelic states through breath work with different mechanisms, but um you can also get there so you. Don't always need the substance, but in the question, coach with psilocybin versus coach without psilocybin, it's a pretty clear case what the substance does. And I mean, it I would really just love to add here another thing, which is called, and this is
Why Control-Driven Leaders Are Drawn to This Work
SPEAKER_01also, I think, specifically interesting for entrepreneurs, people you know, who really like rigid control, I need to, you know, achieve. Um another thing that happens, there a lot of things happen, but another thing is um thalamocortical filtering, and that's a pretty mouthful, but the thalamus in our brain is responsible for sensory input, like it's a filter, right? So what we perceive, if we I mean, I think you know, we we know we cannot perceive everything, otherwise, we would be overwhelmed all the time. So we have a filter, a preconditioned filter that also, you know, shapes our worldview. And the what happens on psychedelics is um the thalamocortical filtering is reduced, which means sensory input can come easier in and easier out. This might lead to some overwhelm for some people, but if held well by a coach, everything is you know stabilized. But why I really want to mention this is because a lot of people, not just entrepreneurs and founders, are so stuck in their emotions, they're so stuck in their patterns and they're so rigid about things they've been pressing down their entire life, right? Just so you don't have to deal with it. And in that state, all this like dirt, not all, but there is the potential for this to surface and be released because the filters are open.
SPEAKER_00I see.
SPEAKER_01And that in itself is tremendously healing. I always refer to it as like emptying the trash can, you know, everything like at the bottom, and you can, if done right, if in a safe setting, it really has the potential to empty the trash can.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes, like you mentioned the trash can. Um, can we not be aware that we have trash? You see what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Of course. And that's what your ego does to protect you, to protect your identity. Yes. I mean, I'm I know I'm talking um big words, right? Ego, and I mean ego also um when I refer to to ego, I don't mean like you know, I am the best, but I'm referring to your set um identity, your sense of self, yeah, exactly, exactly. So, and that is very rigid for many because it gives us stability.
SPEAKER_00Interesting, and um can you as well um um avert
Guide, Coach, or Shaman?
SPEAKER_00this kind of difference between um a guide, a coach, and um what do you call this, a shaman? What's the difference between those three?
SPEAKER_01So a guide and a coach, I would say is the is a different word for the same thing. Yeah, so it's a person, you we use these terms more in the Western world. So it's a person that is supporting you throughout your journey that can be, I mean, a guide, if if we're really technical about the terms, a coach we think might have a coaching license, right? So I would say coach has a coaching license, and a guide might have one but doesn't have to. But in theory, they do the same thing, they sit with you, hold you in safety. A shaman is an indigenous name for a person that is that is equipped with certain capabilities and that has a certain standing in their society. So it's really it is it is distinctly different. Like I think that the the differentiation of what we want to get here is indigenous culture versus westernized approach. Yeah, so that that's the difference. So if you are so there are no shaman in uh in Europe, there are shamans that travel. Okay, and shamans, you know, they come from lineages, they come from from long traditions, and they the a shamanic process, in my understanding, is involving the shaman a lot more because the shaman is a transportation medium, they help you interpret things, versus in the more Western world, a coach is here to sit with you, and their primary goal is to not interfere at all, like to just hold the space for you, and the shaman imposes their culture on you, but that's what they do. Okay, right.
SPEAKER_00Is that different um uh benefits or or risk? Like um, do you have a different experience if you do it with a guide or if you do it with a shaman, for example?
SPEAKER_01Uh such important question. Thank you for that. Yes, a hundred percent. So I have not yet experienced uh an experience with a shaman. But what I can tell you is that, and
The Dark Side: Fake Guides and Real Harm
SPEAKER_01that's actually one of the pillar, one of the main reasons also why I founded Kinesi is because now that the industry is getting more traction, there's so much chalatanerie, I don't know how to say it in English, like scam scams happening, and the amount of harm you can produce within one session is unthinkable. I I personally know of three cases that ended in suicide after a specifically shamanic journey that was done by a fake shaman who claimed to be a shaman, was not, and then could not give the support and help the person needed. And the person could yeah, could could not deal with it any longer and was was returned returned to a home that apparently you know it was just unbearable. Because yeah, and that's really what also maybe at this point we should really really state here that psychedelics are insanely powerful and helpful tools, but at the same time insanely dangerous. So if you don't do it correctly, the damage can be irreversible. I wouldn't say irreversible, but for some people they might it might be irreversible. And that to me is just mind-staggering how people are out there just you know performing like shamanic journeys where they have no idea and harm people, and that is also why now with the size standard. I'm we're building, I have a fantastic team. We're building um your European framework for safe psychedelic practice against we verify practitioners to ensure that these things don't happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's that's very important as much to mention as well. There's some danger linked to it, and we can we can go on it a bit
What a Safe Psychedelic Journey Looks Like
SPEAKER_00a bit later. But can can you as well walk me through the the full arc of the of the experience? Like um um how does it start, like you have the the substance, and then what's going on before and after as well.
SPEAKER_01So the the to me personally, every good psychedelic coaching experience starts already at least one month before. So you really start getting to know your coach, you have intention setting, why do you do it, right? What's going on in your life? Because also life's your your your physique might be healthy on the surface, everything might be fine, but there are also personal contraindications, not just medical, that it might not be the right time. You know, maybe a personal huge catastrophic event just happened, or you want to find a quick fix, then you shouldn't do it, right? But um, given that everything is okay, you are cleared, medically cleared, then um you continue, you already start one month in ahead, preparation time, super important, and there you go deep and already understand what are your motives, why you want to do this. It's really self-exploration, and then when you do the journey, it's usually over um two days. So we now speak about one dosing, like one-time dosing. Some do two dosings, but I'm speaking about one-time dosing. Usually, let's say it's over a weekend, so you arrive on Friday, then um you groove in, you ideally you do some breath work or some body work. I'm a huge fan of somatic work, so for me, these yeah, so these really need to be combined because a psychedelic experience is inherently a somatic experience, and yeah, you you really want to wind down no phone, ideally no coffee, no bad food, and then good night rest. And then on the day, we call it also the dosing day, you ideally don't eat breakfast, so the substance gets um absorbed better, and then you
Set, Setting, Music, and the Dosing Day
SPEAKER_01are with your with your coach, and the the surroundings are super super important. So, here we call about we call it set and setting. Maybe you've stumbled across that. So, set is really your mindset, and we've prepared this all along, this month of preparation, right? So you're in a good mindset, and it's okay to have respect, it's okay to be a little scared, right? That's normal, especially if it's your first time, but you shouldn't be panicking about it. And that's also you know where the coach is there to guardrail you exactly, and then um, yeah, you do some breath work um or you know, grounding meditation really depends on what you want to do. And I sorry, the set, so this was the mindset, and then the setting. So the setting is the surrounding safe space, beautifully, you know, with mattresses, greenery, maybe flowers, so really where you nervous system can feel good, and then you let you you take the um truffle, and how we do it at Kinisi is that we cook or we boil the truffle, so you actually prepare your own truffle, then you put it in a um put hot water on it, put some lemon in it as well because that helps you absorb it quicker. We call those lemon tech, and yeah, then you ingest it, and then you lay down, and you put on an eye mask, and then also music starts. So, as I just mentioned, with the thalmocortical filtering, your senses are really heightened. So, we really want to, you know, close your eyes so you don't focus on anything outward but really inward. And the music is a super important guide to move you through faces, and your facilitator, your coach will be sitting right next to you the entire time. So, in case you want need to go to the bathroom, you want, you know, have a question, you want to talk, they're always there. But first and foremost, they're there to hold the space. And for you know, for people who've never done it, they're like, oh, but why is a person here? You know, why do you need a person? What is holding space, really? But when you when you've when you do a psychedelic journey, you will understand, you know, wow, we're sitting here. I feel you, I feel your energy, you feel mine, right? And and that's that's where we can actually uh relax and where we can, you know, really let go. And that's such a big part of the journey of a psychedelic journey.
SPEAKER_00How long is it uh the journey?
SPEAKER_01So the journey round like the onset is around about one to one and a half hours, pretty steep, and then you can decide usually if you want to have a booster. So if you want to go a little higher, depends also tolerance varies, right? And then the whole journey, like you peak around about after two hours, and then the whole journey rounds about six to eight hours, depending on the dose, and if you took a booster, and then you you feel it taper off as like you you really feel like oh it's getting less. Like a lot of people say they have tingly feelings. For some people, the truffle makes you a little nauseous, especially if you haven't eaten in the morning. Um, and yeah, but very, very open, very light. But of course, not every journey is is light and happy peppy, right? But here I also want to say, especially with with journeys where there is a little turbulence, where there might be you know moments of disease, disease, these are the most healing because you saw this, you faced something negative and you overcame it. And that's also why the coach is so important. And after that, you it tapers off, you have a light breakfast, and ideally, you know, because you're still high, you're still in this space, so we don't really want you to talk that much, so we really invite silence, but the coach stays with you, and then you go to bed, and then ideally you journal also if something comes up, or if you want to journal, and then you the next day you talk with your therapy with your coach about it, you know what happened, what did you see, and that's it for the in-person part. And then what then happens is my most
Integration: Where the Real Work Begins
SPEAKER_01favorite part, which is integration, which is the part after your psychedelic journey, and here, especially also now. I mean, that's the angle that Kinesi takes. It's for founders, CEOs, executives. We are big on leveraging neuroplasticity. So after psychedelic trip, your neuroplasticity or so brain's available abil your brain's ability to rewire and reorganized is extremely high for around about one month. So habits that you want to get rid of or that you want to instill are easier to implement. Okay, you can, you know, we we are we're like your your accountability bodies, and we help you really design or get rid of things that you want to have and um shape your your next month and really not just next months, but um your your potentially your life.
SPEAKER_00Do you have any examples of uh of uh of habits that were changed, like uh quit smoking, for example, I guess is the one.
SPEAKER_01Quit smoking, um quit alcohol. I mean it habits, you know, it it really depends on what your intention is. Like may some people some people um quit junk food or you know, stop stop eating junk food, but some people also start a gym habit or make it a habit to call their grandparents or their parents once a week. So it's really about what you want to instill, and really the amount of what you can instill is unlimited, really. It just really depends on what you want to do. But I I one thing that I really want to highlight here is that a lot of things that also a lot of things that we can't predict happen. For me, for example, I was smoking before, after my first psychedelic journey, I stopped smoking. I didn't even want to stop. Now I can't I can't I can't. Okay, I I didn't want to stop.
SPEAKER_00Why because it was um um felt negatively afterwards, or like you got you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I'm I'm really disgusted now. Okay, and like and that's that's the thing, like we don't know a lot, like we still don't know many things about the functioning, but one of the like how I always say in a very simplified form, or my explanation is psychedelics strip away all the conditioning and all the like stories we tell about ourselves, plus what we actually know is that it really helps with addiction. So some circuits in your brain are or some pathways are disrupted. So my connection to oh cigarette I like, disrupted, gone, don't like it anymore.
SPEAKER_00Super interesting. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and again, we don't know exactly what is bad for us, but your your your mind will tell you as well.
SPEAKER_01But you're you're and that's deeply that's deep-rooted wisdom. Our body knows what what what's good and what's bad.
SPEAKER_00There's a good book on this, the um the body keeps core. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's the Funda Cork, yes. And he, I mean, uh he's he's an absolute legend in this space, and that's also where I actually um found my my I would really say my home with somatic work. Yeah, it it's it's fundamental to everything I do now. And somatic so soma is the body and um body work, really movement.
SPEAKER_00Very cool. So just to recap, like the the full journey will be like you have a a lot a long preparation at the beginning, then you have the full journey experience with coaching and guidance as well, uh, and then you have the big part on the on the integration as well.
SPEAKER_01That's uh the biggest uh important integration and you know integration can last for me. Integration is a way of being, okay, right? And you can integrate every learning, you can integrate just making it your own and weaving it into your life. But we this the time frame we set is one month, ideally, it's longer.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah, interesting. And you you touched on this a bit uh earlier, but do you think
Can Psychedelics Make You a Better Leader?
SPEAKER_00it can as well help leaders see themselves more clearly from a leadership perspective? You see, like um any high achievers or leaders or founders or creator, can can they use this kind of therapy to see themselves more clearly?
SPEAKER_01Beautiful question, and yes, that's my home turf to say it shortly. Big disclaimer again, it's not for everyone, right? So you have to be medically uh cleared before going into something like this. But if we say you are and you're you're an like a good candidate, then absolutely I mean you know, I uh there are so many so many use cases psychedelics are beneficial for, but I found them is especially beneficial for leaders, founders, ex especially the ones who've been building for a very long time, right? So I mean there you you specifically asked about leadership, yes, leadership, okay. So for leadership, psychedelics, and when I say psychedelics, I primarily mean mushroom, I'm I'm actually always referring to to mushrooms or psilocybin, and your empathy increases, your empathy for yourself and for your environment increases, so you get you you can attune better to others, you can be a better leader because you can see what the other per feel what the other person needs better, and also leadership is in my opinion, all about knowing thyself. Okay, and you know, if you have huge blind spots, you're never gonna be the leader you want to be. So for me, leadership really starts with leading yourself, and this starts with looking where you maybe don't want to look, and that happens a lot of times in in
Creativity, Microdosing, and Silicon Valley
SPEAKER_01journeys.
SPEAKER_00And um, what about creativity? Because I've heard some people are are going to choose this direction to try to unlock some type of uh creativity, like funders and uh people who are building startups, um, they're trying those kind of substance to unlock and find a new um wave or what's coming, or the or the the yeah, the creative element to it. What what do you say on this?
SPEAKER_01So the the like I said before the flooding um or the the the the the reduction of the default mode network, that actually what happens in the brain, and there's a beautiful graph. I I think it'd be nice to to show that also, um, is your like brain areas that usually never speak to each other are finally but can speak to each other in these moments. So you have extremely high cognitive flexibilities, which means your experience or things you've thought about, you can now connect in different ways. You're connecting the dots that you've been building before, and it is uh it it just helps you to think differently, it helps you to zoom out, to snap out and get a bird's eye perspective for things. So it's very much used in creativity work, and I mean Silicon Valley, right?
SPEAKER_00I've heard of Steve Jobs. Steve Job was an Elise thing or something like that. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Steve Jobs, I mean Steve Jobs is the most prominent example, but many in Silicon Valley, the legend goes that most Silicon Valley is built on people microdosing.
SPEAKER_00Is it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's it's it's really like there is something to it, and here disclaimer again, like microdosing is a whole different different topic, but it it does it is very powerful for creativity work.
SPEAKER_00Different from uh from the full journey. It's uh or is it one and is it one and another, like microdosing or full dosing? Uh is it um one other, or is it can be both, or whatsoever?
SPEAKER_01So people you mean that you do a big journey and then afterwards do microdosing? Many people do that.
SPEAKER_00People who only microdose and then don't do a full dose.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Yeah, so many people actually do micro at least I I know, I mean I also am in the bubble, and I know many that do microdosing, and here also, I mean the the evidence on microdosing is not consistent at all. Like really, we there are no no studies out there yet that actually can make sophisticated claims. However, there's a huge body of anecdotal evidence, and also in my circle, um, of also especially people founders with burnout getting out of burnout with microdosing.
SPEAKER_00Could be a placebo.
SPEAKER_01Could be. Could be, but but um yeah, I I I know I know multiple, so um, yeah, okay, no interesting.
SPEAKER_00And um, yeah, so you mentioned about founders, about uh high performers, about like uh I I want as well to come back to this
Trauma, Control, and Founder Psychology
SPEAKER_00notion of of control, okay? And why is it so relevant for for funders, executives, and people who are building things as well? Why is it so important to do this kind of work? Could be with substance, could be without substance as well, but why is it so important to to to to go through this journey of self-reflection as well? What do you think?
SPEAKER_01I have so much to say that it's um and I I think I'm gonna say something controversial.
SPEAKER_03There you go.
SPEAKER_01But in my experience, in my personal experience, most founders, serious founders have been in for a long time, and entrepreneurs, CEOs that go far have more experienced more trauma than the general population.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01And when I say trauma here, do you know that like do you know the difference between small tea trauma and big T trauma?
SPEAKER_00For me, no, it's a trauma. It's a trauma.
SPEAKER_01So really cool distinction. There's the small T trauma, which is basically every everyday trauma, like every one of us carries trauma, right? But uh where you had were emotionally neglected, you were bullied, or so, you know, and then there's big T trauma, sexual abuse, many, many things, especially pertaining to childhood, war, you know, the like really catastrophic, objectively catastrophic things. And in my observation, founders have more of this big T trauma compared to the general population. And why I'm saying this right now is because uh big trauma is destabilizing. Trauma derails you, it destabilizes you. And if you have drive, if you have control, if you can, you know, manage something, you are outwardly fixing the chaos that is inside of you. Okay, you have a grip, you have the control on the outside, and that you know builds insane companies. That is a lot of success, right? But is it also your emotional well-being? I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00So interesting because yeah, because I I feel as well that you can reach us kind of of help with coaches, with uh therapy, with uh of course as well with uh it could be with uh substances or without substances, but this kind of uh the main pattern I see, and correct me if I'm wrong, is this element of uh of uh self-reflection, knowing yourself better and dealing with your own stuff, if I don't want to swear here, um, to make sure you can if you want to manage outside, you need to manage inside. Correct.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's very important for any leaders, or actually anyone for anyone to to not just like I said, I mean I have this slogan, I have had it on my wall for like ever. In order to be a great leader, you have to lead yourself first. And I'm I you know it it's it's not just about leader leadership and people, aligning people, you know, moving towards the shared mission, but it's also about your physical and emotional health and the physical and emotional health of your surroundings, of your loved ones. Because if you're dysregulated, your surroundings will be dregulated. 100%. We're social animals, right?
SPEAKER_00That's uh that's that's that's interesting. And um yeah, so I understand everyone needs to do to do to do this work um because of uh self-reflection and and and and as well, yeah, that's what I wanted to go. Um, because I've heard this uh this notion of um uh people who are using
Psychonauts, Ego Dissolution, and Spirituality
SPEAKER_00substances are called uh psychonauts. And I I I love this notion because uh you have the astronauts who are going to the to the moon, and then you have the psychonaut, the one which are going into the the the into your it's a journey in your psych. I don't say it. What do you what do you think of this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I also like the term psychonaut at the same time. I I think it it the psychonaut also pertains to people that you know you you go inward, yes, but you also go um somewhere where we we can't explain, right? If you and psychonauts, I mean I don't know what the clear definition of a psychonaut is, but if you have a certain high enough dose, a lot of times we talk about ego dissolution, like you were you're you're just float in space, literally, that is the feeling. I mean, a lot of times you can't also explain these um these things are called ineffable experiences. Ineffable means not to be put in words, you can't describe it. And interestingly, ineffable experiences are the most healing. And here we also touch on spirituality because in these moments you understand or you you feel that your body is something, but you are also somewhere else, right? So there is this like you're really cr dancing on a barrier of what is and what isn't.
SPEAKER_00That's a yeah, I I yeah. When what I I've done some some uh breath work, uh holotropic breath work, and I felt this kind of uh line between um the science, your your body control, and the spirituality when you start to experience different things, you start to to see or talk to people, and uh and uh and your mind starts to talk to you as well. And I I don't know, it was very hard to because I'm a very big skeptic on this, I was a very big skeptic on this uh until I saw the the how powerful it can be, and and I was like, Oh, we have no freaking clue of what's going on. Exactly. We are just touching the top of the iceberg, but if you go into your mind, it's just mind-blowing. That's that's my my experience behind it. And you mentioned about the the the does, and uh depending on the doors that you take, you may have different experience. What's
Dosing Explained: Microdose to Heroic Dose
SPEAKER_00the the typical does? And can you extend a bit more into the um the experience on the on I think it's called the heroic does, like when you go into a big one, but like start with the micro dose, the the does and then the big does.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so there are since we are talking about mushrooms and truffles, we also can differentiate between fresh mushroom and dry mushroom, and fresh truffle and dry truffle. So don't quote me on any of these specifically, and you we can, you know, and put the the the conversions also in the show notes, but I'm talking now about dry mushroom. Okay, okay, dry mushroom roundabout uh stuff. If you do it for the first time, I always prefer to go on a lower dose for people who do it the first time because you just never know. You can always, you know, do a little redose, but I always prefer to go lower, which would be round about one and a half gram to two gram.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Usually people would say, yeah, or I I think usually it's two and a half gram, but I would I prefer a little lower dried mushroom. That's uh journey, a hero's journey. We say is five gram and the both. Okay, but this is also highly dependent on how potent is the mushroom, you know, because we don't know, unless you really take um synthetically synthesized um psilocybin, then you know, and um your constituent, how much do you tolerate? Like, is your I'm I have so little tolerance. Like if I take a fourth of a microdose, I I feel it properly, right?
SPEAKER_00So you won't recommend people to jump straight to five.
SPEAKER_01Not at all, not at all. No, no, and a microdose would be a tenth, officially like a tenth of a full dose. And yeah, what is a full dose for you? And then for me, it would not be a tenth, but a fourth of a tenth. Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_00So you you you're saying the um the the um you you don't recommend the heroic dose to anyone just starting on the ones. Correct.
SPEAKER_01I warn against it, yeah, really. It it can be it can be so way way too overwhelming. Of course, if people some people can handle it, I would say majority of people can't, so don't do it. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I've heard of of some people just losing sense of self and just losing the sense that they took something. Uh and if you don't have any guide or if they do it by themselves,
Why Doing It Alone Can Be Dangerous
SPEAKER_00it can be quite dangerous, I guess. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and coming back to set and setting, right? If you are not in a safe environment with somebody you trust, you can really easily spiral, and this can also um trigger uh psychosis in certain people. And once you had a psychosis, there's no way back. So, like it's it's like I said, it's really dangerous if done wrong.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So you you you're also quite um um focused on the on the um on the preparation. Uh of course, no, I'm I'm not saying like you guys do a heroic dose, and uh I understand that's not something that that you do, but you really focus on the on the preparation, which is a very important part, and as well the integration post uh post post-journey,
Why Preparation and Integration Matter
SPEAKER_00and why is it so important this kind of of uh of preparation and integration as well? That that's that's key, I guess.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, it's so important because it readies your mind and your system and your environment. Like we also do in preparation, we also um always mention about your social circle. One of the biggest predictors if a journey is gonna be, you know, beneficial for a long time is also your social connections and the what happens when you go home, yeah, and how safe you are there. And um yeah, in the preparation, yeah. I always say it's like you you create a map, a map, a mental map of your topics, and when you're in the journey, which it basically just opens a window, it's a catalyst, but the journey itself, the substance itself, doesn't do anything, it just opens a window. And if you did preparation properly, you have a map, and then you can put the pins into the map, right? And connect the dots in your mind, in your mind, yeah, and the integration is really bringing all of that back home, integrating it into your life, and also very important to note. We also the research also just found out that a lot of the aha moments, a lot of the I mean, many people do it to have breakthroughs, right? But a lot of the aha moments come in the days and weeks after the journey, not during the journey. So why is that?
SPEAKER_00Why is it uh after? You don't know.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, but your your brain is still recalibrating.
SPEAKER_00Trying to make sense of what's what happened, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Exactly, and like you know the the heightened Europlasticity, like your brain is really in the face of extreme potential to reorder and recalibrate, and there things just happen, and then you walk, or like you know, you have certain triggers, you walk on the street, and all of a sudden you remember something like oh, you know. So that's also why it's so important to have a structured process for integration, so you also create the space for these things to come. So don't go back to work immediately after a psychedelic journey, don't you know, rush back in because it will be just first of all, most likely overwhelming for your system, and second, you are cutting the potential to receive more of these aha moments.
SPEAKER_00And um and you also mentioned quite a few times during during this uh this uh recording that you will not recommend um psychedelic to to everyone, and
Who Should Avoid Psychedelics?
SPEAKER_00who should stay away from psychedelic work, like who literally you say like no, you're not a good fit.
SPEAKER_01There are there are the the most um obvious ones, which are if you are bipolar or schizophrenic, or have that in your immediate family, or if you have cardiovascular problems. So these are like the main things, and other than that, there are like I said, also environmental factors like where are you in your life right now, but also are you on antidepressants? Are you taking other subs and are you taking other medications? So that's why it's so important to have a medical screening because an MD will tell you yes or no based on all their life's experience.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. And what what's um do you see the difference as well being um just curious and being ready? What's the difference? Like do you see some people they are very curious and say, okay, you are curious, that's good, but I don't think you're ready.
How to Choose a Trustworthy Guide
SPEAKER_01That's a great question. If I think about it, for me being curious is being ready.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yes. It's a calling, or that's something correct.
SPEAKER_01That is like literally in in the industry we say it's a calling. And if you feel that calling, you know, like and that's also what I always tell people when they're like, oh, am I ready? Am I not ready? I'm like, you know, like listen, like you know, and even if you're a little scared, because I mean you have respect for these substance, you have no idea what's gonna happen. You can still be ready, right? So yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um what what what questions should um should people ask their uh guide or coach uh before the journey? As well to understand if they are ready or not, or as well to understand like if the um if the guide is not uh a scammer, if he's not uh he's a real shaman or real guide and so on, any question that we recommend here?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, yeah, very important. So I would clearly always always just work with people in my field of recommendation, like if I have a direct recommendation, because it's really hard to know. But I would if if there's no recommendation you have in your immediate surroundings, then I would um always ask for references. I would always ask, can I call a client of yours and have a conversation with that person for how long have you been doing this? You know, what is your what is your background? Ideally, that person has a background in therapy. Ideally, it's not always the case. And I would also just ask, you know, how many times have you have you facilitated? But here you have to trust that the answer of this person is correct, you know, that they they don't scam you. So I think really making these reference calls is very important. And there are certain websites where you can actually
What the Psychedelic Space Gets Wrong
SPEAKER_01already see um people listed with a huge caveat, and this is also why we're building size standard. People right now on especially European, actually global websites are listed, they're not checked, it's just you set up your own profile. Of course, you're gonna say great things about yourself, right? But what we are building at Sci Standard is really we verify each practitioner that you will see on our website against the four maybe more layer, but now four-layer framework to be approved.
SPEAKER_00So I guess company like yours will as well uh pre-select those kind of guides as well and make the reference check and so on to ensure like a quality or those kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01Correct, because safety is the number one priority in this industry and it's not given right now.
SPEAKER_00That's that's that's that that's important, yeah. That's um and um yeah, that's that's interesting. And is there any anything around um psychedelic space that people are not um talking about? Like something like I understand like it's there's a big stigma, there's a lot of uh of taboo. Um, but do you think is is there any angle that people are not honest about about psychedelic?
SPEAKER_01How dangerous it is. Okay, yeah. I I think there is especially in the psychedelic bubble, you always hear about you know the success stories, treating PTSD, treating depression, having this breakthrough, but you don't hear about all the cases that go wrong. So yeah, that that is for me the biggest, biggest problem, also, because few people speak about that.
SPEAKER_00So it's dangerous, it's important to adopt it.
SPEAKER_01It is it it it it is really dangerous, but it is also very powerful if done right.
SPEAKER_00Powerful can be uh two-sided, powerful, negative, or powerful positive as well.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And that's also like psychedelics or non-specific amplifiers, that means they amplify whatever is there right now, okay. Down
Psychedelics as Medicine
SPEAKER_01or up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And where do you draw the line between coaching, therapy, and the medicine?
SPEAKER_01Do you have a line between those three, or is it um is it you mean in the context of a person wanting to do a journey?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So coaching, you know, like like we said, therapy is really with a therapist in psychedelic assisted therapy, you can only do in a clinical setting so far. So for but let's say we say it's about the person, it's uh an individual that can safely guide you. They it it's a synod it's a synergy between the medicine and the person guiding you. But the it I would say uh you
The Future of Psychedelic Therapy
SPEAKER_01should always always have a person there that you trust and that guides you.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um do you feel that psychedelic can be called a new uh medicine?
SPEAKER_01Clearly, it is it is called a medicine. It is there are thousands of cases where people are treated for depression, anxiety, substance use disorder, really, especially with a substance called ibogaine. People are healed, treated all over the world, that especially the depression case, right, that have been using antidepressants that have all other sides of contraindications. I'm not bashing on them, like it's really important that we have these types of medications. But if there's an alternative that gets you off taking something for every day of your life, yeah, then I think it is worth looking into it. And we see this happening all over the world.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. And what what do you think the future looked like for psychedelic? Do you think it's uh it's positively positive or it's uh it's uh not going in the right direction?
SPEAKER_01For for around about 20, 10, 15 years, we have been in a phase that's called psychedelic renaissance because very long there has been a ban or almost almost like a ban to do research on these substances. Um maybe it's interesting to know it's it's called the drug, uh, the war on drugs, which basically was was initiated by the Nixon administration back in the US because um the Vietnam War was going on and people were starting to use LSD, and then they felt so connected and they were like, okay, wow, we're we're one society, we're one planet, right? We don't want to go to war. And that didn't work for the administration, right? So there was a huge, I mean, this is all public knowledge now, right? And since then there have been bans on researching on these substances, and hence there has it has been pushed back for so many years, but now, like in the two in the 2000s, especially 2010s, it increased again the research. And um, yeah, I mean, Trump two or three weeks ago signed an executive order, very cautious about anything that Trump does, but it is a huge legitimization that the president of the United States in the Oval Office speaks about psychedelics in a healing capacity, in a medicine capacity, and that in itself I find very positive. We don't know how it's gonna materialize, but that in and of itself I find brilliant.
SPEAKER_00I've I've heard about uh about the um the war on drugs that you that you mentioned. I think it was a a documentary on Netflix as well, books on uh um Michael Poland. Yeah, yeah. And uh I found it was because there's a science behind, it's not only about uh recreational drugs, but there's a full story and the full science behind all those kind of substances. Uh and funny enough, um, if I'm not wrong, um LSD was created in uh Zurich or was it in Bale?
SPEAKER_01Um Albert Albert Albert Hoffmann, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Where was it? Was it in Zurich or Basel Basel? Basel, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Switzerland for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Switzerland. Yeah, but you don't think about uh uh those kind of of uh of compounds being created in Switzerland, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not at all, and actually there was just um bicycle day. I don't know if you if you know that. Um it's like the it's called bicycle day because um Albert Hoffman he synthesized it and and took it, and
Sophie’s Vision for Safe Access
SPEAKER_01it was a very high like he had no idea, right? But then he he rode back home his bicycle and was you know like in a crazy dimension. So um, yeah, there's a every year I I forgot the day, no, but it's in April. Um yeah, honoring that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I think like there's um so you're you're thinking the the future on of uh of psychedelic looks promising. Maybe it's still slow, but uh promising.
SPEAKER_01It's promising and it has never been more promising. I mean, I in the beginning I mentioned the compassionate use program in Germany. We're seeing regulations changing in the Czech Republic, Australia is already on the forefront. Switzerland is in Europe the number one country that has been doing this for I think yeah, 10, 20, 20 years, something. They're really when it comes to psychedelic assisted therapy. We're seeing a lot of changes now and at an unprecedented rate, and research coming out at an unprecedented rate, and I'm very optimistic.
SPEAKER_00And for you, what's your vision? Where do you see the the this field in 10 years?
SPEAKER_01My personal vision is that every person that needs alternative treatment that might include psychedelics has access and can afford it in a safe way.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Are you saying that today the psychedelic therapy is only reserved to a certain class level because it's actually quite expensive?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_00So make it to make it more popular and more affordable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, to make it to make it mainstream. But I I don't like the word mainstream because for me that doesn't include safety. Make it safely available and accessible to the people in need, and a lot of the times the people in need are those who cannot afford it.
SPEAKER_00Do you see a future where you go to the to the apothèque, um what do you call the pharmacy
Practical Takeaways: Myths, Shaking, and Journaling
SPEAKER_00and you you can buy mushrooms?
SPEAKER_01I would not hope for that. Okay, because then the because then the the abuse potential I think would still be be high. But I think you should be able to do it in a safe setting because for me, if you want to use them in a in a therapeutic way, you cannot separate this from a therapeutic or from a coaching process, and that always includes another person and a set like a setting.
SPEAKER_00Or a doctor office, like uh a guide office where you go in a I mean interesting, okay. And uh and and more on the on a on a practical way as we are ramping up the we are closing the the podcast, more on a practical way, and for curious listening uh listening uh today, um just you can answer quite fast. Uh so one misconception about psychedelic that you have in mind.
SPEAKER_01That it's a quick fix.
SPEAKER_00That is a quick fix, okay. It's not a quick fix.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_01It uh for people who think it might be a quick fix and they take it, it might even make things worse because they see the things that they're unwilling to see in reality.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01One misconception about coaching that the coach has to tell you what to do.
SPEAKER_00They don't tell you anything.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00Because you have to do the work yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they should just hold the space.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And one practice that we recommend everyone listening to do now.
SPEAKER_01Daily practice something daily, like a practical, yeah. My all-time favorite and makes a lot of people cringe, is shaking. Shaking. Shaking. Whenever you feel overwhelmed, stressed, when things are just too much, it's most likely because your system is stagnating and you're stuck in a hurry. Get up, shake for 10 seconds. Should I shake? Shake. Yeah. Should I shake it shake?
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah. Jump and shake. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Shaking because I mean, oh, you don't hear me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That is a prime somatic reset for you. And I want to share a story here. Like, how did we find out? Um, you also find it in the body keeps the score with Bessel van der Koge. How did we find out about it? Researchers were observing, maybe I'm saying the wrong animal now, but like I think antelopes in the desert that were hunted by lions. And imagine you're an antelope being hunted by a lion. You think you're gonna die. You're nervous. And when the antelopes could flee, like they survived, researchers saw that they were shaking. Okay, they started to shake. And a couple of moments later, they were again with the other antelopes, like nothing has happened. And then research on this started, and a good shake, 10 seconds, or put on your favorite song, a good shake has a tremendous power to ground you and to just make you go through your life in a way, way more grounded and stable way.
SPEAKER_00Super interesting. I was expecting like a meditation or by focus, like, no, let's shake. Okay, let's go. I was scared that you were going to like let's all take mushroom every day. No, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_01So just could shake if a listener takes away one thing of this episode, shake, shake, really shake, do it in the bathroom, do it when you know, between a call, you will see, you will see the benefits.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's shake. And um, and what do you think about um journaling? Do you have like one journal question that you will focus people on?
SPEAKER_01We didn't even talk about my protocols. Come closer. Um I know that you shake. I know that you shake babies. Um, so what I love, and this is not invented by me, but it's um a practice that's called morning pages. So I forgot her last name, Julie. It's like a really great the artist within Julie something, and basically there she says every morning, just take a journal and just write whatever
Best Resources to Learn More
SPEAKER_01comes to your mind. Okay, and we talked about emptying the trash can before. For me, this is really a way of emptying the trash can. I just take my journal and write. I don't, you know, don't prompt because that's too directive again. I just give out whatever comes out in that moment, and that is very cleansing to me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so just to it's a way to clean the trash, but um just like clean your mind in a way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or another actually, one one by Karl Jung that I love, but this is more on for people that maybe have been doing this a little longer, is journaling. Is what do you want to bring to this world? What do you want to birth to this world?
SPEAKER_00Super cool. And um, for anyone listening, if they want to learn more about uh about psychedelic, about uh coaching, about you or anything,
“You Are Enough” and Closing Reflections
SPEAKER_00like what do you recommend? Any resources, any websites? What do you recommend here?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um for sure you can just follow me on LinkedIn, right? I post quite a bit about all these things, Sophie J. Spitzer, and um yeah, other so they're great resources online already, but one that I always recommend is maps because it's pretty pretty uh pretty big maps, but also I mean you have many many research and research institutions institutions that's public it, but one of my favorites, and this is also um now positioning the the company that I'm with, Pink Elephant, um, is States of Mind. So Statofmind.com is a platform where you get the latest research, the latest, really translating psychedelics for curious, for psychedelic curious, so statesofmind.com and you find great articles, great resources there.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And one my last last question if you had a big billboard in the middle of um Vienna or Berlin or Lisbon where anyone could read on this kind of billboard, what would you put on it?
SPEAKER_01You are enough.
SPEAKER_00You are enough. I love it. Excellent. But um we're going to to wrap things up. Um thank you so much for coming. I really enjoy the the conversation. Um again, I was very curious to hear more about uh about this this topic, um, more to to understand and uh and uh being curious about uh about this topic that we we keep hearing on on a lot of different um uh media and and podcasts and so on. And I've learned a lot, so thank you so much. Um now I know that I'm going to to shake more. Yes, but uh but yeah, for for everyone listening, thank you for for being here. Um you see like a psychedelic and coaching and therapy can be very healing. That's also very important to mention it's also very it can be very dangerous, uh, so that's something which uh which we should never forget. But this kind of uh self-reflection, this kind of self-work to make sure we we are we are okay and we are we are all as you mentioned, we are you are enough, we are enough, but we also need to to to do this kind of work internally. I think that's very important and very powerful. So that's that would be the the first step towards towards this journey. But um, yeah, thanks again for for for being here and I see you next time.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00Thanks so much.
