Episode 12: Chat with Katie Marshall of MBK Acne Detective

For our Season Finale, I'm joined by Katie Marshall, creator of the MBK Acne Detective course for estheticians. In this conversation, we dive into holistic acne management, investigative approaches to stubborn acne cases, and the importance of looking beyond the surface when supporting acne clients.

Join us as we discuss education, critical thinking, and empowering estheticians to become true acne detectives in their treatment rooms.

Take advantage of the special pricing for the MBK Acne Detective Course Here:

https://www.mebykatie.com/mbk-acne-detective-professional-estheticians-course

And get your: The Holistic Acne Business Checklist (free guide)

https://www.mebykatie.com/business-checklist

You can find Katie on Instagram @mebykatie

For Real Skin Pro Education Cheat Sheets: 

FREE Acne Assessment Cheat Sheet: 

https://www.realskinpro.com/coming-soon-02

FREE Skin Barrier Cheat Sheet: 

https://www.realskinpro.com/registration

See you in a few weeks with fresh episodes of the Real Skin Pro Education Podcast!

Real Skin Pro Education is dedicated to helping estheticians think differently, treat skin intentionally, and create real, lasting results.

Follow along for more advanced skin education and insights.

Instagram: @real_skinpro

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right, this is the last episode of season one for the Real Skin Pro Education Podcast. I want to take a little break and come up with some fresh content after listening to some feedback and start fresh in a couple of weeks. Uh today I wanted to go out of this season with an interview with somebody that I have been following for a long time. I look up to as a real professional in this industry, and her name is Katie Marshall. So we had an interview where we talked about acne, being in the industry, some advice for newer estheticians, and this is an episode that you definitely don't want to miss. So here it is. So uh welcome to the Skin Real Skin Pro Education Podcast. I have Katie Marshall here. Um Katie, tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Well, thanks for um having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Of course. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

It's been a pleasure to to chat with you and all that stuff, and of course your listeners. Um Well, saying it's not easy talking about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I know. It's one of my I hate the question. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

It's always kind of awkward. I'm great talking to other people about them, but not so much about me. Well, you know, as I said earlier, you know, I'm pretty much very low-key. I'm a bit of a homebody, um shy, introverted, slightly awkward. Um but you know, I, you know, it's just me and my husband and our fur babies. I love a good rainy day and a good book and a cup of tea, and um snuggling with hubby and fur babies.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Um but you know, professionally, um here, I'm here in uh Canada, so I'm here in British Columbia, about an hour outside of Vancouver. And I'm a certified medical aesthetics practitioner for almost 18 years. And uh became a functional and integrative nutritionist um in 2021. I started signing up for these courses just before COVID hit. And then when COVID hit, I'm like, yay, I can study. And then um the spring of 2024, I did my certification in women's hormone uh coach. Um, because I'm uh I'm an uh only child and my mom's been gone for 21 years. So she was adopted. I don't have any female family members to discuss preg menopause, menopause with all of the things one of my clients are going through this too, right? So yes, I love what I do and always open for learning.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Always we have to in this industry, we have to keep learning all the time.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

You do, and um one of my secret why I'm gonna say secret passions anymore, but one of my passions is acne because it's a common skin condition that aestheticians often um see in their practice. And several of my colleagues had said, you know, you should really create a course. And I'm like, eh, that's a lot of work, it is a lot of work, but also being a shy person, like, how do I do this? Because I I want to share my knowledge, but how do I do it so it can reach everybody? And it's available 24-7. So it was one of my business coaches that suggested a digital course, and so we brainstormed, um, and then we I created the MBK Acne Taptic course in uh September 2019.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

2019, and it's so popular. I see everyone talking about it in the esthetician Facebook groups, the pro groups. I tell my students about it. It's such a great option to learn more about acne. Um, it's it's so great. It's a it's set up great, it's being talked about, and you should be very proud of that because it's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Thank you. I I am very proud. I I knew it would be successful when I first launched it. Of course, it's had quite a few revisions since then. Uh but I didn't think it would ever be this successful. But I'm very grateful that it um it has been successful. And as students give me feedback, I make you know the changes um as we ongo. So I'm making some more updates.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

That's always a good thing. You have to stay up. You have to there's more information, there's more knowledge, there's always a different way to teach it too.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

So there's always a different way to teach it. And the great thing about having a digital course, it's it's easy to update and modify.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

That's awesome. And um so uh I just want to ask you a couple questions about this too, because you have a holistic approach. I'm super into holistic approaches, and you seem to put package all of that approach uh perfectly into your course and and what you teach and um and how you teach. So when you're thinking about holistic aesthetics, how do you define holistic aesthetics?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Well, holistic aesthetics, it's it's more than just what we see on the face, right? It's more about training the body, the mind, and the spirit. It's all connected. And I guess because I've always had some fascination with Chinese medicine and A Vedic medicine, um, and personal experiences and frustration with Western medicine, it's it's more than just right, it's more than just a surface level thing. So, you know, rather than just addressing the symptoms of what we see of the breakouts, the redness, and whatever else is showing up on the surface, I'm looking at the root cause. Right. So when I look at the person, like start looking, okay, your skin's telling me a story, but I'm looking past that and going, okay, so where is everything connected here? Yeah. I'm looking at the diet, the stress, the lifestyle habits, these are all driving factors and what we're seeing in the skin. Like we live in a modern world. It's hard to manage all this stuff. And I'm especially passionate about the gut skin access. And it needs to be talked more about in an aesthetic school. Um, but it generally isn't, or it's slightly glossed over. You know, the connection between what's happening in the digestive system is what shows up on your skin. It's a perfect example of what I mean by root cause. You can treat a breakout topically all day, but if the real driver is got inflammation or an imbalance in your microbiome because you're on antibiotics or um on heavy medication for a cold or a flu, that can be a root cause. So you're not just managing system because managing system doesn't resolve it. You really want to bring wellness practice into your aesthetic business. I think it's a perfect um meld into what people are wanting, right? Um, it's much more meaningful experience for the client because you're not just treating them like a like a patient per se, and you're supporting them in the long term, right? We have a as aestheticians, we have a unique ability to sit and listen. We're not rushing a patient out in a 10-minute doctor's appointment.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Yes, we do have that. And I think a lot of aestheticians forget that, you know, it's not just that hour spent with us, you know, it's not just hands-on the whole time, but we have to just kind of like your course, we have to be those detectives to to ask these questions and and know what questions to ask. And I I do see a lot of times these questions aren't being asked. So paying attention to that is is vital in this industry to really make you stand out as a as a knowledgeable aesthetician.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

I just think I just think it's important to ask questions. I don't think it's being invasive, I don't think it's being rude. Um, I know some aestheticians said it wasn't on my business. I'm like, well, actually it is. Yes. There could be a hidden contraindication going on that you're not aware of. And some clients, because they've been so misled um and gaslit um from previous practitioners, they may not be as forthcoming at the at the first appointment with you. It may start to slowly re-evolve, right? Over a course of a few appointments. I'm like, you could have told me this like, you know, five appointments ago, but that's okay. We can fix it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Or or it's the, you know, I never thought about that. I never thought to tell you that, you know, I didn't think it mattered, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

That most that generally does happen later on. I can usually tell their for their body language that there's something they're not quite ready to reveal. So I'll ask a couple of questions, and if I'm not getting the right answer, I'll just sort of back off and move on, but then revisit later.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah, that's a good thing to to revisit later because we'll know, you know, we we do see something is going on here and no piece of information is too much, you know. We we I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

I mean, I ask my clients how, you know, I you know, how often do you poop a day?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Right. Because that's important. It is, it's very important. And when you're thinking about holistic aesthetics um and acne, when what when we're thinking about acne, do you think about it as more than just a skin condition?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

I do, because it is more than just a skin condition, right? It's a chronic systemic inflammatory disease, as described by the American dermatology, right? So um what we're seeing on the surface is a it's an actual diagnostic clue, like a visible sign of a lot of complex stuff happening internally: hormones, genetics, gut health, immune responses. It takes a toll, right? I know when I had my um breakout after birth control, I was like, oh my God, I'm about to graduate aesthetic school and I'm having the worst acne I've ever had. But I also knew that my body's trying to figure itself out because I've suppressed it with synthetic hormones for over a decade. It's trying to figure things out. And yes, you know, was I slightly embarrassed to be telling my clients what they can and can't do? And, you know, here's this product, and here's that product, and we should be doing this treatment, and my skin looks like crap. Yeah, I was insecure. But when I explained and shared my story, my clients like, oh, okay, no worries because it makes you relatable.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Yes, totally relatable.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Um, yes, yeah, and then when I explained to them that, you know, because I just got off birth control, my gut's having a bit of a conniption fit because it's you know, your gut dictates everything. I'm trying to beef up my nutrition because I didn't realize that being on birth control was also depleting a lot of nutrients. I'm trying to rebuild that up. Um, it's it's just it's gonna take some time. And when my gut was starting to get healthy and become balanced, my skin was becoming clearer, and because my clients were seeing the evolution going through this, it really made them um get serious, you know. They may be reluctant to make a huge bunch of changes, which I get, I'm willing to meet them halfway, but they started getting really serious about it. And um one thing we have to remember is that when the gut barrier itself is compromised, it does trigger immune responses that can make skin flare-ups and irritation worse. So, you know, unfortunately, antibiotics are necessary evil. So I always remind my clients if you take antibiotics because you're having like your wisdom teeth pulled out or you're um having hysterectomy or whatever, you need to be on probiotics. I'm not a huge fan of antibiotics, but when absolutely necessary, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Yes, I love how you said uh I think you said lesser evil or you know, we need to, yeah. But you know, your doctor is not telling you to be on that pro or prebiotic before when you're taking them, or the probiotics after, you know, they're not talking about any of this.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

So it's excellent I've only had one doctor tell me that, and that was when I had my very first yeast infection, and he, you know, she explained to me how it all worked. I'm like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

And then all the all the information that, you know, the causes of acne, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about acne?

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Um, gut health and nutrition and stress management are probably the top three.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Stress management is such an underrated symptom. It is, I guess, you know, because don't think about that.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Exactly. I I don't think anybody realized how stressed they their lives were until COVID hit. As an introvert, I was like, I gotta I get to be close for two weeks. Sweet! I wasn't bad about it. But my extroverted friends and clients and colleagues were all freaking out. So I get it, it's really hard to manage stress in our modern world, but we have the power to manage how we respond to that stress. Do I get stressed out when a client's late, when there's an order missing, when there's traffic, my bus didn't show up, and my cat vomits on my bed again. These are everyday things that most of us have dealt with multiple times in a week or a month. But it's how we respond to it. My aunt gave me one one of the greatest tools that you have to you have to laugh through some of the craziness of life, otherwise it'll just eat you up. So yeah, I'll get mad because I'm frustrated it's happening right now and I can't control it. But I'm like, it is what it is. I have to laugh it off and shrug it off. I have to try and look for the positive, the brighter side of things. Um, but I also make sure that I take the time to de-stress, right? Like going for a walk. Um, if it's if it's hot really hot outside or miserable rain, I got a treadmill. I can quickly jump on that. Meditation, doing a nice soak in a in an Epson self lavender bath, reading a raunching romance novel.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

They're so popular right now. So many of my coworkers are it's like a secret, but they're like, oh no, that they listen to it, though. We should listen to what read what she's reading.

unknown 14:52

Like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Right. So, you know, it's just it's so important that we have to um manage your stress. I'm very sensitive to to chaos, so I have to, you know, like okay, I can't control what's happening right now, but what can I control in this very minute, or what can I change this very second to turn into a positive? Because life happens, you know. We just have to quickly change that mindset because negative Nelly, it's really easy. Positive Patty, she's really hard to get on board sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:32

It's so true. It's so true. You must fight it sometimes. You you understand that there is an aspect of some kind of stress, but I don't want to fix it. I want to sit and be mad. I don't want to sit and be stressed, or you know, it's it's a it's a practice for sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

It is, and it's it's taking me years to to create something that works for me, right? I have one client that's going through a really um hard time, and I've tried to get her to journal, but she's been so platiment against it. I'm like, it doesn't have to be a novel, you're not writing a novel, you're just brain dumping your thoughts and emotions onto paper. You can doodle, I don't care. Just get it out.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, something get it out, yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Because you're coming to me and you're crying every ever at every facial, which I don't mind. I'm trying to give you some tools to try and utilize them between our facial. Well, there are times I will laugh, like your facial's free, but your therapy session cost it.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

That's cute. And you know, but you know, when you're having those conversations with them too, you're planting little seeds. So, you know, I bet one day she'll just do it, you know, just write that couple sentences in the journal just to get it out because she's gonna remember you saying that. So you have an impact in the treatment room, even though it's not gonna immediately change somebody's lives. And it goes with skincare, you know, anything that you're recommending them or talking to them about what you're doing in the treatment room, they don't know, but the more you talk about it, the more they know. And that's so important is to have those conversations and make those suggestions because otherwise what you're doing is just gonna unravel.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Totally. And and those of us that that are sensitive to you know, acne. I have a couple clients that have rosacean eczema. When they started utilizing anti-stress tools, their skin flares were not as frequent. And when they did have those flares, they weren't as angry. So it's important that, yeah, we can provide all the topicals we want, but we have the power internally to, you know, shut that off by making some quick positive, you know, mindsets, you know, five-minute breathing practices, a five-minute meditation, just to sort of shut off that cortisol inflammation chaos before it gets carried away.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Yes. And is that something that you incorporate into your treatments? You know, maybe taking a couple deep breaths with your clients or uh maybe something a meditative sound in the in the room. Is that is that how you incorporate that?

SPEAKER_02 18:07

I have done it when a client is having like a really bad day, like my client that was just discussing, right? She is going through such a really hard time. Yeah, so I just touching base with her, making sure you know is everything okay. I didn't know because I just felt very helpless because I wanted to help her. Also felt very helpless. So I I learned, no, I'm like, you know, um, I'm I can set an extra 10 minutes, we can just have a nice crying session. So I I don't mind doing certain things if if a client is in the mindset to do it at that time. Sometimes they're not. So they're you know, it just happened or they're just still too angry and frustrated with the situation. So I'm like, okay, well, before you go to bed tonight, you know, just lock yourself in your closet if you have to hide from the kids. Put on your headphones on, listen to some positive chanting, or um, there's several apps like Calm is a great app to use to try and you know, go to bed less stress so you can have a nice peaceful sleep.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

And sleep is so important too. Sleep is so very important for our skin health. Yes, just and our gut, you know, and our gut and our gut, you know, anti-aging, yes, hormones.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

All of the so yeah, so you know, I do have a couple of colleagues that do breathing exercise, you know, like a five-minute breathing exercise. I have one colleague, she does those um those sound bowls.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

She incorporates it. I know several of my students are Rikki practitioners, so they'll do like a Rikki session um just before the facial starts. So I mean that's the thing. If if you you know, if estaticians have these additional skills, why not incorporate into your practice?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Right. Yes, absolutely. Yes, there's nothing wrong with doing any of that. It's and it's important, it's a little tricky sometimes with scope of practice, especially in characters.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

It is tricky, but there's I I believe that there's a way to have these discussions without uh violating your scope of practice.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Agreed. Yeah, simple suggestion, you know. Um something I do is you know, I some of my clients have said this is useful, you know. So I you know, or some what I know about acne and supplements, it's some people have taken this and it's been helpful to them. So it's not like I'm prescribing or something. What are some ways that you because I know Canada's different, we discuss that. Um, but how are some ways that you can kind of guide your clients by and stay in scope of the esthetician?

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah, that is that is definitely um a tricky uh discussion to have. Um, and I know we're probably gonna cause some backlash for it.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Do it, do it.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

So the way I feel is that we have the power as certified estheticians here or licensed because we um Eastern Canada still has their licensing, but of course, estheticians in the US are licensed. We can absolutely educate our clients on the general evidence-based connections between the diet, our lifestyle, and our skin health. But there is a fine line because we are not medical professionals and we don't want to be crossing that line. So I think that if we talk about, you know, how hydration is important for skin barrier and how omega-3s help reduce inflammation, you can suggest general wellness guidelines and managing stress, getting enough sleep, recommending the you know, the Canadian Food Guide or the US dietary guidelines, right? It's all there. You're just giving them recommendations. I was creating ebooks for my clients and giving them. Links to proven studies and an article experts, right? So I wasn't just making stuff up, I was providing evidence.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

That's so great. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

And that was before I started getting into taking, you know, nutrition training to get the piece of paper to say I can talk about it now. Sure. It's like, you know, and I would recommend them, you know, if you're going to go see a naturopath, they're gonna talk about the same thing. So I'm not, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Yeah, it makes sense. And you know, you're offering resources to your clients too.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah, that's that's it's the way you frame it, right? You're offering information for someone to consider, you're not prescribing, you're not diagnosing, you're just giving them proven anecdotal evidence.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

I love how you know you said all of that. That's really great. Uh, because it's hard, you know, and people don't think, why should I, you know, they're why should I learn about this if I can't do it? You know, but you you still should have the knowledge, and doing what you said is is so perfect.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Right, well, because that's the thing. We already know that certain medications are contraindication for some of the treatments that we offer, right? So we're responsible for educating our clients and how certain drugs and diets affect the skin, right? Photosensitivity, capillary activity, hormone levels, right? We know that some of these medications our clients are on could be a contraindication treatment. I've had two of my clients after being on antibiotics to get waxing done, right? One of my clients was on a photosensitive medication for her anxiety and she wanted to do laser. And I'm like, uh-uh.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

But I want to do it right now. The next slide.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

So yeah, it's all about language, right? There's a big difference between saying X has been known to affect Y. And if you notice a change after eating X, that could be worth paying attention to, right? Like you know, when I eat ice cream, if I have the odd bowl of ice cream, I'm okay. But if I'm having ice cream every single day, I'm gonna have first thing that's gonna happen is I'm gonna have diarrhea. Second, I'm going to have some acne. And I also feel very sluggish. So, you know, I don't know how that affects me. So I bring relatable experiences to me to, you know, yes, I'm share. There is a fine line between oversharing with your clients, but I think if you're saying, I know when I did this and stopped doing it, this is what happened. Right, because we're all human.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

No, I I don't always practice what I preach. I tell my clients, you know, I can have a piece of chocolate cake, no problem. It's the whole cake that's that is the problem from because I'll eat cold face. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

And I know that's gonna be a problem. That's and then yes, but making it relatable, you know, how can that's people love that, you know, when they're you know you talk about your own experiences and they get that it's it sparks little things and then they're like, wait a minute, that's kind of me too, you know, and that's she's right, I'm not the only one, you know. So it being the relatable is is a big uh important factor and when you're when you're talking to your clients, especially.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

It builds that trust yeah, it builds that trust factor. Yes, um, because you're just you're not just they may be hearing the same language but that they've heard from other practitioners, but those practitioners didn't share their story. But when you start sharing your story, everything all of a sudden clicks.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Totally. Yes. And and then, you know, they just want somebody to listen most of the time. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

I've had clients cry at the consultation because it just it made sense all of a sudden. Why didn't anybody tell me? I'm like, they probably did, but they probably left out their stories.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Sure. Yeah. Um, and then you know, like a lot of people don't talk about it because they don't have the knowledge, you know. Uh so that's why again, continued education is so important. But you know, we're not just rubbing cream on people's faces. I say that all the time. We we have to talk to them, we have to start that conversation, especially a first-time guest set. But the consultation is so key because it does build a trust with your clients and it gives you the opportunity to ask those questions. Um so I wanted to ask you when you what is your approach when you're talking to acnec clients? When you're doing that consultation, what are some of like maybe the top three kind of markers that you definitely need to have and more information on?

SPEAKER_02 26:37

So I treat my consultation as a completely separate uh appointment. Okay. I don't include it like in school, we're taught to include it like the first five, ten minutes as part of the facial. I'm like, who's got time? You know, to me, this you're taking time away from the actual treatment, and that five, ten minutes is not enough. Totally. I do it as a completely separate service and I treat it almost like an interview, right? I'm interviewing them because I want to make sure I'm not to be wasting my time with the client. Some people want help, but they don't want help, and some people want help, but they don't understand the whole process, right? And there's also they're trying to interview me. Am I legit? You know, because websites can be beautiful, social media can be beautiful, but who are you really as a person? Like, so I do it as a completely separate service, and my consultation is very comprehensive, right? Because I'm taking pictures of their skin. I am asking the specific questions on their diet, their lifestyle, their relationships, um, because I want to know like how much stress is going on. Are you doing shift work? Um, do you eat healthy because you think you're eating healthy, or do you eat a lot of the pro-inflammatory foods that are known to cause um acne? I do both virtual and in clinic.

unknown 28:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

So it's the same process other than ones in person and ones not. Um, but I'm also asking about medications and supplements because sometimes these medication supplements could be triggering the acne as well. And um people who think they're eating healthy are not eating as healthy as they think they are. I'm not judging them. I just need to know where the red flags are to help them make the necessary tweaks so they can have a successful treatment plan. I'm also going through, like, because some birth controls are androgenic, which can either um cause additional acne or exasperate existing acne. So I'm like, maybe you want to talk to a doctor about going on a different brand, talking about their sleep cycles, right? Because if you're a shift worker or you're working nights, that's disrupting your circadian rhythm. Um, and yes, we're not doctors, but these are clues that are giving that that are um telling me what kind of treatment plan is gonna look like and what kind of home care plan is gonna look like. I know for clients that do shift work, it takes longer to heal because there's there's there's too many root causes going on all the time. So I let them know up front, like, hey, you're unique because you have this these toughs going on. It's gonna take a little longer to clear, so please be patient versus someone who has a regular money to fight a nine to five job.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

I never thought about that, but it makes so much sense. I really never thought about that.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

I used to work shift work.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Okay, that is such an excellent thing. You know, we talk about occupation, but we don't really talk about shift work like that, and that it's so important. I love that you said that.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Yeah, shift work, shift work is uh a huge, a huge red flag. You know, if they love their job, that's that's great. I'm not judging, it's just that they're not they're usually not eating as well, they're not sleeping as well. Sometimes our hormones are also out of walk because again, you're disrupted the circadian rhythm. We are not not all of us are night owls.

unknown 30:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

But the circadian rhythm, I mean, you can't that's that's nature. Yeah, good luck. Uh so we talked about some resources. Like I said, that's a that's an important resource because no matter, you know, we how many times you've heard the same information or even new information, it's what can I do with the information. So it's still important, even if it's not skin related, you can still relate it to skin because you know how to.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

It's it's just trying to not overthink it because then it's like I'm an overthinker.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Same. Yeah, and it's a lot of info info to process, but um, it's it shows the importance of continued education. It's that you know, that piece of paper, that certificate, that license, it's not the one and done.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

And if that's the kind of esthetician that somebody wants to be, you know, yeah, because the your esthetician license is technically your foundation, sure, right? And you need to you need to re you need to build it from there, yeah um, and figure out, you know, do you want a niche? Do you want to be a Jane or a Jack of all traits? Either way is works. I prefer to niche. I didn't originally, um, but eventually I'm like, you know, I need to I need to niche down, um, because I find it to be more cost effective, um, less stress, less inventory to carry, more, more money to make account. Yes. Yes, yes, but you know, if you want to offer, you know, corrective skin care and lashes and waxing and spray tanning, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

You do you. Do what makes you happy.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Yes, yes, definitely. You do you. Yep. I prefer to niche. Works for me. Yes, yes, and and sometimes you learn that, you know, it's you have a lot of experience. I'm 17 and a half years in too, and I've changed so much. And um it's so nice to have passion for something, you know, and and you know, educate yourself on that. Because once you do that too, you it's like, well, the learning never stops in that category either. You know, there's always something like the a hormone, you know, uh course that you can take. It's always it's always it's so much fun. It is, it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

And I was a lousy student at school.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

I wasn't loud either.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

But when you're an adult and you're taking continuous education courses in whatever industry you're in, it's a completely different mindset.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

And then Katie, um, wrapping up, I just want to kind of ask you one takeaway you hope every listener remembers from this conversation today. Oh boy. There's a lot to cover, but what do you think the most important thing is? Maybe as far as um an acne focus or you know, education.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

I think every aesthetician should take a nutrition training program. I really do. I think it's a beautiful complement to the aesthetic industry. I know there's a huge shift in in aestheticians trying to go into nursing so they can get a better wage and better job prospects. That's great if you want to do that. But maybe for those of us that don't want to do that, I think taking a foundational nutrition program is perfect. It gives you that extra knowledge, it gives you that extra street cred and it allows you to open up those discussions that you may not feel comfortable having with your clients because you don't have that extra knowledge. And that's kind of what I did. I mean, I had some, you know, basic foundational knowledge when I be when I was digging into the gut health and everything, but then I started taking other courses because I'm like, okay, this is still a gray era for me, but I know how important this is to have these discussions with my clients because I want them to, you know, manage their acne, manage their rosacea, age gracefully. Because not all my clients are into the medical side of a sex, you know, they're not, they don't do injections, they're not interested in doing laser therapy and all that stuff, right? They just want to age gracefully and glow. Yeah. And I also think it's important that esteticians are okay to learn new things. And it's okay to specialize or not, and just be open-minded and and listen to other ideas and um learn from others. Um, I also think it's important to have boundaries as well. I think there's a lot of astitians that are so afraid to have boundaries in their business because we're pre we're people pleasers. But it's important to have boundaries because yes, you're a you're a practitioner, but when you leave your work, you're a human being. With a whole separate life. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

So it's important to, you know, see when you leave the premises, the phone is off. Yeah, you don't need to answer that email, that text message. It's okay to say no.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Yes. Personal and professional boundaries are huge.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

It's important, right? Because if you don't take care of yourself, you're can't you can't be that, you know, that best business owner, that best employee, that best mom, wife, whatever. Um, you're the CEO.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Um, so it's it's important to have boundaries. I don't always answer my emails right away. Sometimes I'll wait 24 hours because I'm like, I'm kind of focused on this. I need to focus on that. That's a distraction. But I do respond. But you know, six o'clock, everything gets shut down.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

Yes, good.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Because it's me time.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Yeah, that's it's important. You have to pour into yourself and take a break in those pro those professional and personal boundaries are huge in this industry.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

And and you know, don't don't let clients bully you.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Right. Is another one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Um, you're the boss, it's your treatment room, it's your rules. And if a client's gonna try and bully you, because I've been there, I'm like, hey, I respect your vanity. Sure. I respect your vanity. What you're asking me to do is unethical. I'm not allowed to do that. I'm not willing to risk my license and business reputation over it. Yep. I'm happy to refer you to someone else that can do all that.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Yes, excellent, excellent to talk about that. It's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

No, it's it's you know, just it's hard because we want to please people, we want to do everything, but at what cost?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah, not our integrity.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah, yeah, you know, preserve your preserve your humanity, um, your integrity, your ethics. Um, even with bosses, you know, bosses are are can be bullies and are money hungry as well, like we all are. But sometimes they're coming from a different perspective. So I've I've had not necessarily in this industry because I've always been solo, but in other industries I've had a boss try to bully me and I put my foot down. I'm like, no. But uh yeah, it's um it's a lovely industry. I love it. I'm glad I did it. Um I did it on a whim because I was injured at work. Um, I knew I couldn't do that job anymore because I had permanent nerve damage from that injury. And you know, my cousin was an esthetician and I was jealous because she was making so much more money than I was.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Tell us a little bit about your MBK acne detective course.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

So my MBK acne detective course, it started because Kendall Jenner was promoting proactive and assistants were having a meltdown. And I did a beautiful do you remember that post that I did several years ago? Probably. I broke it down, like you know, okay, great, she's got a huge paycheck. Good for her, right? I'm not gonna knock another sure, you know, boss babe from from earning in money, but there's a bunch of BS about that. I was just venting because I was just like, okay, great, she's got a paycheck, but she also sees a dermatologist that isn't Kathy and Katie and of course the whole influence. Like I just it was like what 2017, 2016, I did that post. It went viral, and the push from from colleagues to finally do an acne course. So with my acne course, I want to make it skincare brand neutral because there is no three. My belief is there is no three product step system that will cure your acne, because there is no cure for acne. There is no one specific brand, not knocking face reality, because I'm also a face reality expert, that is great for everybody. Face Reality works for some people, it doesn't work for others, and that's okay. I'm not knocking face reality, it's a great course. There's so much distraction in our industry about new and trendy things. I didn't want people having to spend a bunch of money buying three, four, five lines, you know, one for Rosacea, one for acne, one for anti-aging. When a lot of professional lines already have these built in. I was using PC skin at the time when I was doing my face reality course. And they already had all that. I was just using the knowledge and with PCA and making it work. So my my my course is skincare brand neutral. You can take the education and implement it into your business relatively easy. I do more of the root cause aspect, not your basic acne training that some other professional brands will offer, which is great. The basic acne stuff is valuable information, but it's only covering the surface level because that's all we're allowed to do is the topical aspect. We're not taught to do the look in the inside. So I'm I'm helping us tissues sort of identify the many root causes of acne. Because topicals and treatments are great, but they don't address what's going on. Right. Right. I have period acne. I need to make it go away. Yep.

unknown 41:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Well, you need to manage your cycle. You need to know, you know, when you're ovulating, when you're how long is your luteal phase, how long is your um menstrual phases? There's four phases to your cycle. You also need to support those different phases. So we have to back it up, right? So we're not treating symptoms. I'm teaching how to walk it back to identify the many root causes it could be for your acne client. I'm giving you the tools and resources. I'm giving you recipe books because a lot of times clients don't know what they should be eating because when you take away what they shouldn't be eating, like what do I eat? There's lots to eat. But you know, I also grew up in the kitchen with my mom. My mom cooked.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

So a lot of people don't know how to cook. Um, so these are very easy, nutritious recipes that you can give to your clients. There's lots of resource tools, handouts, and ebooks that you can use for your business. There's social media posts you can use for your business. Um, I'm teaching you guys, you know, gut health and hormone health and stress management, and how these are things that these are discussions we have with our clients all the time. But how do we implement it? Is important. Um, I just started recently adding some workbooks and cheat sheets because some of my clients are neurodivergent and they need that extra bit of tool resource. So it's not my learning style, but I'm trying to fill the need that some of my students need.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Um, with your course, it sounds so cohesive. There's so much information that you know we don't think to put all together. So that's it's such an excellent resource. Um, is your how what's the format of your course? You said you have um some ebooks in there. Is it did I hear that right?

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Yeah, so it's in um in Kajabi, which is an online platform for digital courses, one of many online platforms for digital courses. Um, so it's all the information is there. So there's 13 uh modules in there. The first three modules are sort of like business related, like your the cannibal links for the ebooks and stuff like that, um, some business resources in there. Um, and then it's the the four through 13 is the main part of the course. So the first little bit, you know, sort of refresher on skin health and everything like that. And then I break it down into you know, the gut health and nutritional stuff. Um it can be overwhelming for a lot of aestheticians, and I always get them. To start on the module that your weakest in, and then go from there. Um, and just pick that module and just go through one lesson a week. Um to you know, go through it, um, try and implement it into your business and see how that goes for you before you go on to the next lesson. There's no right or wrong way to do it either, whatever works for you. I prefer to have an open platform versus having it locked until you go through it from A to Z. Um and then we have the Acne master classes once a month. Uh so it's a great way for students to come in and you know chat as a as a group. Um, you know, hey, I have this client, blah, blah, blah. So we talk about case studies, we talk about business, um, we talk about certain lessons because I'll usually start with the masterclass with a snippet of a lesson. Um, and that's great. We also have a private Facebook group to get to talk to many other um colleagues. And I've got face reality students, I have students that use natural brands like um Skinscript and Eminence. I have students that use PCA, Circadia, you know, so all the pro brands out there, even the Korean brands. So because I don't use Korean skincare in my in my practice. It's just I don't need another skincare line. Sure. And I don't have a demand for, and that's okay. But you can talk to other aestheticians that may use XYZ products and you know what what's worked for them for their clients and vice versa. Um, it's a great way to network because you know sometimes our clients move away as well, right? So, you know, if their clients are moving to a different province or a different state, you can always put in the group and hey, I need I need an acne specialist and blah, blah, blah. So it's a great resource. And of course, for those that are really shy and introverted and need more one-on-one, you know, I'm always available. My students will email me and we'll book an appointment, you know, book an a Zoom chat so you know I can help you decompress and and utilize everything. I can help with your acne cases, I can help with your acne business. I always want to be there to help my help my um students.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

That's awesome. That's so exciting and such great resources too, and um, that's really priceless.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Yeah, I mean, the great thing about the the ebooks and the handles is that they're they're done for you. So all you have to do is just slap your business name on it, and it's yours. So you get to rebrand it um for your business however you wish. And some of my students um will sell a couple of the ebooks uh online, um, just an additional revenue stream, why not? Right. So so yeah, there's different ways, different ways to earn an income.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yes, and you know, and it's what you're passionate about too. So yeah, it's uh it's great information. How can if somebody's interested in taking your course, how can they find your course?

SPEAKER_02 47:23

So here's the link, which I'll give you.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Um so right now I have a summer sale. So the course is regularly at $550, and I have it on sale for $350. So that's a $200 savings. And I just implemented a payment plan because right now I know money is really tight for all of us. And so a payment plan that way, you know, if that works for you, you can at least get into the into the course um right away, and you just have a two payment, so your first payment and then your second payment to to make it easy because $350 may not be a lot, but for some of us that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Yeah, yes, I totally get it.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Awesome. And you know, because I think I think it's I think it's a good course to take. And you know, I do have people ask me what's different about face reality and mine. There's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of differences. So I was a face reality specialist, I have many face reality specialists, so I have some that are face reality specialists that are taking mine and implementing additional resources and education into their business. And some will take my course and then do face reality. So there's never such a thing as too much education.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

There's not, there's really not. And just even the way somebody presents it, you know, the information is it's different for everybody, and there's no way that you could not take something away from all different types of resources.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Oh, and and I think it's great because there's some of the acne courses that are available out there, it's like a business in a box, right? You get you get your education and you get to learn how to use their products for your acne clients, which is great. But then if you don't want to invest in the skincare line because you know you you're happy with what you have, you know how to you're familiar with your protocols and your ingredients and that, you just want additional education, then maybe my course is is great for you to do.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah. So awesome. And then where can listeners connect with you, Katie?

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Instagram's definitely popular these days. You can definitely find me on Instagram at me by Katie. I post every day. So I'm always doing, you know, gut health and hormone health and stress health and skin tips. So you'll definitely find me there. I'm also on Facebook as well, but Instagram is the go-to. And I also um have a website at mebykatie.com because I also do nutrition um counseling as well, outside of aesthetics, great having two separate businesses under one umbrella. Sure. So I also do other education um as well. And so you can see my website there. And um if you just generally want to to chit chat because you're not sure where you fit, by all means, send me an email, info at me by katie.com. I'm happy to chit chat.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

Awesome, awesome. And then what about if somebody wanted to use your services, maybe a consultation or your nutritional, your nutrition services?

SPEAKER_02 50:25

So I at the moment I don't have my online stuff available because I'm taking some um continued education courses. So I'm trying not to overwhelm myself. But if they email me, I do make it a priority to, you know, give them that time. So I just don't didn't want to be bombarded with a bunch of juggling. I don't have it available to book those services, but if again, if you just email me, say, hey Katie, can I book you know an acne skin health consultation with you or a Trishion consultation with you? I'm happy to make it work.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Awesome, awesome, awesome. Katie, this has been such a pleasure. I'm a big fan of yours. I have for a long time. Thank you. You're welcome. Um, thank you so much for for this. And you are actually my first guest, so I'm excited about that. Um I'm excited for your new journey. This is exciting. Thank you, thank you. Um, but I I mean I've learned so much from you in just this short amount of time, and I would I can't wait to learn more from you uh through your course and through your Instagram. And um, I really hope that others find so much value as as much value as I do uh in this. Yeah, thank you too.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

It was a pleasure chatting with you today. This is this was a lot of fun. Um thank you for asking. And um, you know, I've done these before, but they're always they're always different. Yeah. But but they're fun to do. So if you do have a podcast for the listeners, no, hit me up.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

I'm like now.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Yeah, but yeah, no, it's it's um I I enjoy doing these. I enjoy chatting with other colleagues and learning from others as well. Yeah, so it's never too much. There's never too much, right? So I mean, I learned from them, they learned from me. I mean, hey, everybody's happy.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yes, exactly. All right, thank you so much, Katie. Thanks, Lisa. Take care. Thank you. Bye. All right, and that's a wrap for season one. Check back in three weeks for fresh new episodes from the Roll Skin Pro Education podcast. In the meantime, please check out the link in the show notes so you can find access to Katie Marshall's information and her acne detective course. You can also find links to contact me, my email address, my social media, and access to my free uh uh exhibition cheat sheets. All right, we'll see you in a few weeks. Thank you.