Welcome to the Mess

Welcome to the mess.

We're kicking off The Sh!t Sandwich Generation by talking about the stage of life no one prepares you for.

You're raising kids.

Managing a career.

And quietly, your parents are aging.

This episode is an honest conversation about how we got here and what it feels like to live in the middle of all of it.

The pressure.

The guilt.

The chaos.

And the moments that catch you off guard.

It's real life.

And if you're living in the middle of it too... you're not alone.

We are having the conversation that no one is talking about.

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_00 0:00

How do we get here?

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Well, I think first we gotta discuss where is here? That's a good question. Where the hell is here? This here is right smack in the middle, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Yeah, yeah. I honestly had never heard of the sandwich generation until you brought it up. I had no idea what it was.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Yeah, you're living it and you don't really acknowledge what it is. So we're talking about really more of the shit sandwich than we are the sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Oh, 100%. And you don't you don't really realize it until you're freaking right in the middle of it. And then it's how did how did I get here, right? Yeah. I mean, it's all these years you're going about your your life. I mean, you started, you're older than I am.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

So thanks for pointing that out. Of course. I'm sure everybody needs to know that.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

I mean not by much. Four years. It's a four-year age difference between the two of us. So you went to medical school first.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

And I mean, the journey starts there, right? I mean, you you're you're going to school. It's, you know, head down, let me get through medical school, let me get through college, let me get through medical school, uh, let me get through residency, and then boom, at some point, you've got a family, right? Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

We gotta get the, you know, we're delayed, everything's delayed. Family, kids, you know, house that we haven't had, and you're just you're going. You're going. So I think literally we're in the middle. And then at one point, you know, the kids get a little older. And we get a little older.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah. I mean, yeah. As you pointed out. I mean, you're you're working. I mean, you were you're you're you're an OBE G Y N is your your your background. I'm I'm a dermatologist. I mean, my field is a little bit more convenient, but you know, demanding, and you start having kids, and your your life is trying to juggle. And I think we were kind of the first, somewhat of the first generation that had to really work and juggle kids and and family. I w what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I mean, yeah. So I want I don't want to be too, you know, too down on it, but I mean, the great news, right, is we were empowered to have careers. 100%. Right. So I mean, right from the start, it was you're gonna do well in school, you're gonna go to college, you're probably gonna go to graduate school, you know, medical school in this case. You're gonna work. You're gonna come out and you're gonna work, and your spouse is gonna be working too. So we're really in a lot of, you know, in a lot of ways, the first generation where you have two parents or two, you know, spouses working full-time.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

And I think that's part of how we get here. 100% agree. I mean, again, you know, didn't realize it, you know, going through school that it was going to be this, this, this much. Yeah, I chose this path and had the kids, right? You have three kids, I have four kids, wouldn't trade it for the world, but most days. Very, very true.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I mean, let's face it, we're talking about the shit sandwich sandwich generation. So yeah there are some days where we do have to question it.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Oh, yeah. There's actually more than more than a more than a few, but we'll we'll get into that in one of the the later, later episodes. But yeah, again, back to, you know, then you're focused on your family, your kids. It's, you know, you're you're on. Your parents, we were probably, you know, mom, mom and dad helped us a little bit, but it it was still, we were, we were working, taking care of the kids, and life moves. It moves really quick. Kids grow up, but they they're demanding. They're demanding of of your time, work is demanding. You know, you're trying to move ahead, you want to have a successful career. I, you know, I'm a little bit more entrepreneurial, so I had a couple side gigs, but you know, we're working hard and kind of rolls from there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

And then, you know, at the same time, you know, fortunately, I mean, we're part of healthcare, you know, healthcare is is good and people are living longer. Our parents are healthy. I mean, they're well fast now. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I would don't mean to to laugh at that, but our parents are relatively healthy living into their 80s, which means, what, Mary, we're right in the middle of the shit sandwich. There you go. Yeah. In the middle of the shit sandwich.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

And and again, uh, you know, our kids now a little bit older, yeah, a little bit more responsible, but uh, I can tell you, I I don't know if you feel the same, but I my kid, it was a lot easier when they were younger as they get into those teen years. They want you present, they want to know that you're there, that you're 100% supporting them, ready to do whatever they need. So it's it's a lot. And then, you know, all of a sudden you're not expecting it. Yeah, our parents are are older but relatively healthy. Uh and then boom, it's almost if your life blows blows up, kind of your your parents start needing, I don't want to say help, but they they need some input, some handhole. I don't know what would you call it.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

You know, you have to be there for them. You know, I mean, they were here for us, so it's it's kind of like you're we're to the point where, all right, they need some support. And, you know, particularly navigating the healthcare system with us both being physicians, right? So Mary, you know, you said you're a dermatologist. You know, obviously as physicians, we always describe ourselves as physicians first, but how old are your kids?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

My kids are 21, 19, 16, soon to be 17, and and 13 now.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Boys or girls?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

I have two girls and two boys. Older ones are girls, a lot more difficult than the boys, and my two younger boys. How about you, Susan?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

So I have I have three. Um, my oldest, actually, it's her birthday today. Yeah. Uh happy birthday, Isabella. So she's turning 27 today. Wow, 27. Okay. Holy cow. Right. I had her when I was at the end of my residency. So I was fourth year OBGYN uh pregnant and delivered her during my regul residency and went on to have two more. One that's 24 now and one that's uh 21. I have two girls and one boy. And uh I'll tell a really funny story quickly. Yeah. Okay, it's gonna be quick. So when I was doing my OBGYN residency and I was pregnant with Isabella, right? You know, I'd see the patient and they'd be there with their mother and they'd ask if I knew what I was gonna have. And I said, I I don't I don't know what I'm it's I want it to be a surprise. And they'd be like, Oh, I hope you're having a boy. And I was like, what a strange thing to say, right? Like that's such a bizarre thing to say to somebody. And for years I was like, it's stuck in the back of my head. I never thought to say, Why would you say that? But, anyways, and then I had my youngest, who's the boy, and all of a sudden I was like, Oh, yeah, I know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

100%, 100%. Now, again, wouldn't change, love my girls, love my boys, wouldn't change it for the world, but oh yeah, know what they're talking about. So a hundred percent. So, Susan, when when did you feel okay? So we've kind of we know now what the sandwich generation, uh the shit sandwich is, what the sandwich generation is. Was there a moment when you were like, oh my god, this is really the shit part of it?

SPEAKER_01 8:22

You know, that's a great question. I think there were hints along the way, right? That I was like, oh, you know, this is this is difficult, right? When Isabella was like, oh, you're you're gonna be out of the house. And what happens if you get called in to do a delivery? And she's nine, 10. And I'm I'm like, you'll get up in the morning and somebody will be here and they'll get you dressed, and we picked out your clothes. And she's like, Yeah, but what if I change my outfit? I'm like, well, that's on you then. You know, there were hints along the way that this was gonna be, you know, it's gonna be difficult, which, you know, growing up and raising kids is difficult, but there were hints along the way. And then, you know, trade-offs with the career. I mean, we hit medicine at a time where things were changing really rapidly, right? Yeah, um, it was no longer the single specialty, the sub-specialty. I mean, I I think, you know, I I hate to really even say this, but I think I've like every time I land someplace, they get bought out, purchased, merged, right? So it's been not an it's been a challenging career, but you know, changing, pivoting to make it work for the family. But I think until mom got sick, I really wasn't appreciating how difficult it was or what was going on. And when she got sick, I was like, wow, this is this is really difficult. Yeah. We are really right here in the middle, you know, working and, you know, taking care of our kids still, you know, and now taking care of our parents. So what mom got sick, how many years ago now?

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Oh wow, yeah. It was probably three, four years ago when it first first started, right? I mean, when she first got the the diagnosis, yeah, it was, I mean, it was a long road. You know, unfortunately, fortunately, you know, I don't again, it was a long road. And yeah, I would say didn't really realize the the sandwich until she really got got sick. You know, again, just like you said, was career kids. I think we all have that, you know, uh in challenges in different ways. I think we all go through challenges in our careers. Probably all go we all go through challenges with our kids. And again, I think part of this, this as we go in our podcast, we'll be talking about some of those challenges and how to how we navigate through those challenges. I know my kids have had some challenges. I I know your kids have had some challenges. Career has been challenging. We both went from private practice at some point to larger, larger groups with challenges. But yeah, the the really, I think the the point when you're like, this is really not what I expected is when mom got got sick and just really changed directions. There was a pull that I can't even explain between kids and and and parents. And how do you how do you navigate that? Didn't have any idea. And I think that's that's kind of why we're here, right? To to kind of, you know, one, you know, we're we're all in this together. Whether you're not alone, we're here. We've been through it, want to hear your stories as well of what you're going through. But how how do you navigate it? And some tips and and some not not necessarily tricks, but uh the healthcare system is not what it used to be, which was I think really part of a lot of the shit in this shit sandwich was oh my god, was holy cow, I can't even believe this is holy shit. Yeah, holy shit. This is actually happening. Are you kidding me? I'm a I'm a physician. You're telling me what I have to wait. How long are you freaking kidding me? But my mom has cancer and I what?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

No. Right. So moral injury there, like having, you know, really worked hard to I hate to even throw the turn those terms around, but working really hard all those years to be there for you know our patients. And and then when when we actually needed it for our family, it was really hard to get it. And I really have a lot of compassion for other people. I think part of the reason we're doing this, right, is is to help validate some of those emotions that that other people have. I mean, we've talked to so many people that are in the sandwich generation, even some that are younger than us, right? Um, you know, there's just so much there. There's that overwhelming feeling, like there's the guilt that you are like always form between, you know, being at work versus being there for your parents versus being there for your kids. And and let's not even talk about being there for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Yeah. I don't think that was out of the qu that's you're not even in the equation most of the time. It was really choosing am I gonna go to the doctor's appointment or am I gonna go to my son's football game or whatever? It was those those choices. And how how do you choose that? Yeah, I wasn't even in the equation at taking time for myself to I I I don't I don't know. You know, uh Susan had a great kind of a funny story about hobbies where someone asked her, What did they ask you?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Well, I was I was actually giving advice to the younger generation of OBGYNs. And I said, you know, if I went back and told my younger self what to do, I would say have a hobby as you're going through your career, which is true, you know. And they came, I said, okay, does anybody have any questions? And they came back to me and they said, Okay, well, what's what's your hobby now? Did you find your hobby? And I said, No. So I'm still trying to find that hobby, but to, you know, but again, I think that's part of it, right? You know, we've been working so hard, you're being pulled in multiple directions. You don't even think to yourself, I have time for a hobby or what do I like? What do I want to do? You know, so you know, maybe even guilt over not being there for yourself. 100% is not great when somebody from the younger generation says, Well, what's your hobby? And you go, I have no clue. Yeah. But being exhausted too, right? Like, you know, yeah, I'm a little older than you, but you know, exhaustion, like you wouldn't believe, right? And I mean, we were driving back and forth to New York City from where we live, you know, and those drives were, you know, you know, killing us, really. 100%. Yeah. Trying to do work meetings. Yeah. Well, we're driving out in New York City, trying to do work meetings at the bedside. You know, that's that's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

100%. Had my computer with me multiple times when I was sitting with my mom in the hospital. Yeah, had calls I was doing on the rise to and from. It it was it was a lot. And again, not really taking care of uh of myself as much as I probably should have. And the guilt is the guilt is real. And again, we're gonna kind of this is what it's all about in this this podcast. And you know, it's we're we're both coaches, which this is I want to kind of make clear it's not this is not a coaching podcast. This is more of this is real life, and this is this is raw. This is raw. Yeah, this is this is this is how it is.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

If you don't want the raw truth of the matter, like you know, don't listen to us. But yeah, um, we're gonna unpack some serious shit here. Yeah. And hopefully, you know, validate, make people feel a little bit better. We might ask some coaching questions, but we're certainly not gonna be coaching here. But the bottom line is, you know, we want a community here, right? I mean, I think one of the things we talked about it was Mary, you and I had each other. Yeah. And but there's still a lot of loneliness. Yep. And I mean, if you're going through this by yourself, if you're like an only child or have a sibling and that's not involved.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

I mean, we we do have other siblings as well, which we'll also kind of get into later on. But yeah, it's hard. Even if you do have a sibling, you need a lot of support. And yeah, we want to hear from you. We wanna we wanna be, we want that group to to listen, to hear uh input. You know, we it's it's raw. It's it's tough. So what do you wish somebody had said to you, Mary, as you were going through this? That's a great question. It is a great question. Uh you know, I I think it would be to uh give yourself grace, right? We we can't be in can't be in every place at it at every time. We we do have to make choices, and it's okay to make those choices, and you you've gotta let go of the the guilt, the expectations. Uh uh yet so give yourself grace wherever you are. Uh life is short. We do what we can, how we can, and you know, do our best. How about you, Susan?

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah, I mean, I agree with the grace part, right? And I think what you said, everybody's doing their very best, right? You know, those of us who that are perfectionists and brought up to be perfectionists, you know, let that perfection go a little bit. This is okay, right? It's okay not to be in all places at once for everyone. It's impossible, in fact. And you're just doing your best and appreciate that, right? Appreciate that you are doing your best and that's good enough. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Yeah, a hundred percent. And and I I think I want to add to that, you know, we're we're in that that sandwich and that shit sandwich, and you definitely will get shit from all sides as well. I I mean, you you when you have kids, when we talk about guilt, I can't remember if we talked about guilt. Exactly. We will be talking about guilt here. You do, you get the you're gonna get the shit from your kids, right? They're great, but you're gonna get the shit from your kids. Sometimes you're gonna get the shit from your parents, you're gonna get the shit from your siblings sometimes. It it really comes in all directions, but you know, ultimately you you sometimes have to realize you're you're doing the best that you can at the moment, and that's that's all you can ask of yourself. Yeah, right. I mean, I'm sure there were times your kids weren't too happy with you, Susan, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Most days, Mary. Yeah. I love when you know, I joke about this, and I love you kids if you're listening. But hopefully they are. You know, the funny thing is when you know they they don't get things don't go their way, like they don't get the job or they don't get whatever, and you know it's gonna be your fault. You know, like I just just wait for it. I know this is gonna be my fault, you know, and I think we're both learning to just kind of let that go a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

100%. I you know, I think, you know, having the experience with my mom and her mom and everything that happened, there's a lot that you have to kind of you do have to to let go. And again, it's not an easy thing to do. And it it can be very humbling, right? Very, very, very humbling, especially as again, we'll get into this, but as a physician, just realizing the system isn't perfect. Perfect. You spent all those years becoming a physician to care for patients and give every patient. I know we're both the same. We we truly care for our patients, want to give 100% to our patients. And sometimes that isn't the case in our system anymore. And it can be really sad, but sometimes you have to let it go and again do your best. Right, Susan?

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I acknowledge, right, it's the complexity of the system, Mary, and you know, it makes it really difficult for not only those that work in the system, right? I mean, I I looked at the physicians that were taking care of mom, and by and large, I I I really had some serious empathy for for them and you know, just trying to navigate the system and you know, was worried about mom, was worried about them, of course, because we do well-being work and we do burnout work and and all that. Yeah, I was just worried about everyone. You're worried about you, yeah you know. Yeah. So, you know, uh stop worrying about everybody. You know, yes, you can worry a little bit, but you I I also learned that that worrying was an expenditure of my energy that wasn't well spent.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

That's a that's a very good point, and I love that. And I think we've learned a lot from the past few years, and we're still in this kind of messy area. Uh, but you know, I think we can share what we have experienced and what what has kind of led it helped us, I guess, get through what we've gotten through. So do you have anything to kind of add to that?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah, no, we are gonna have some very, I think, interesting conversations about career, about parents, about aging, us aging too, right? 100%. Holy cow. Remember, I'm four years older. Yeah, she's definitely four years older. Uh what us aging means. I mean, that's not an easy thing to to start to acknowledge that you know you're slowing down, or maybe don't even want to work as uh or can't work as much as as we did before, you know. Navigating kids that are really growing up in a fairly challenging environment. You know, they do have a lot of, I'm gonna acknowledge they do have some stressors that we didn't have growing up. 100%. Yeah. And yeah, I think we're gonna have some really good conversations. We're gonna try to keep it light at times, but it'll go pretty deep. So I think that's really what we're here to do.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah. Um it's gonna be a lot of fun. We've got a lot of good stories. You know, again, we've got kids, we've got siblings, we've got the mess. So trust me.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And we've got spouses, ex-spouses, yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

It's it's been a journey, and I'm just looking forward to the uh the future, and there's a lot of good, but there's a a lot to kind of navigate as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah. So welcome to the shit sandwich generation. Yeah. And we didn't choose it. You probably didn't choose it. I did not choose a sandwich, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

But uh why don't you uh what what it what last words do you have to say, Mary? I think you know, we didn't, I don't think anyone chooses a sandwich, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

I can tell you I mean some people do like an Italian sauce or you know yeah, it's very true, very true.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

But this sandwich, I I don't think I and I'm not a big sandwich eater either, but I definitely didn't choose the sandwich. And but we're we're gonna learn how to either eat the sandwich or beat it, right? Beat the sandwich. Let's beat the sandwich, let's let's do this together, and that's that's what we're doing here. So join us on this journey. Yeah, we'd love to have you. We'll be uh meeting and talking every other week. Stay tuned. Uh we're gonna have some great episodes coming up, some guests in the future, but join us, share your shit sandwich. We'd love to hear.