Well, hey everybody, and welcome to a new episode of the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. We love having a chance to visit with you. I love getting to introduce you to my friends. I really love uh the chance to talk with other leaders about how they can build and run and keep a great uh Jesus-based team. And and some of you listening today are in churches on staff, some of you are in schools on staff, faith-based schools, some of you are working for Chick-fil-A. Like it could be any part of Team Jesus. How do you build and run and keep a team that is for Team Jesus? That's that's kind of the the where we go. And today I want to introduce you to a brand new friend that I met through a mutual friend, Joe Rickney. Uh Joe is uh joining us. He's a pastor, he's a professor, he's written a book, but he's he's actually written uh I want him hear his story, right? But then I want to get into a really interesting topic, and that is how do you keep people from emotionally sabotaging you when you're leading? And I think if you're a pastor right now, you're probably sitting there saying, Oh gosh, now I'm hitting record. I'm I need to know about this because I'm getting emotionally sabotaged. Uh, you know, if you're listening to this on Monday, don't quit. Wait till Tuesday. But uh, but but I think that uh it'll be a great conversation for you. So thanks for joining us. Joe, thank you for making time for us, my friend. Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah. So it introduced us to you. I mean, everything starts with the relationship for me. So tell me your story and how you ended up where you are. And I didn't even know they had internet in Idaho, so this is amazing.
SPEAKER_00So that's right. Yeah, so uh yeah, well, I was uh I was born and raised in West Texas, uh, and uh I'm a Texas Aggie. I went to Texas AM, and then afterward I went to Minnesota uh where I served for about eight years ago.
SPEAKER_01So you know when you say that that when we air this like on YouTube, I'm gonna get all these thumbs up emojis straight through.
SPEAKER_00They will and giggums and everything else. That's exactly right. Uh but uh I went to Minnesota where um for seminary um and then ended up staying there for about 18 years. I was a professor uh at Bethlehem College and Seminary. Uh, some of your listeners may be familiar with the ministry of John Piper, um, and so I served uh at the school which he founded and was a pastor in the Twin Cities uh up until about 18 months ago uh when I uh went went west, maybe not as a young man. I'm all I'm I'm over 40, so I don't know if I still count, but I went west uh and I'm now a fellow of theology uh at New St. Andrews College here in the chimney of Idaho, and I'm a pastor at Christ Church uh here as well. And so I teach theology and uh and literature to undergrads. Um and then we're actually launching a uh an MDIV program here at the school uh here next fall. So I'll be uh kind of overseeing uh our MDIV program uh here. And uh and then I preach and teach on occasion and coach high school football whenever I uh whenever I have a free moment. And so we just have all kinds of fun stuff happening here in Idaho.
SPEAKER_01Well, and for non-church listeners, non-church, non-pastor listeners, sorry for the question, but curiosity kills me. What's your theological area of focus? Like who who are you everybody's got a niche, right? Where do you where do you park?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I uh so um theologically in terms of doctrinal, you know, we're Presbyterians basically. No, no, no, no. What do you love to teach? Who do you love to read? Like what's your what's your jam? Yeah, yeah. So um I did my dissertation on Jonathan Edwards, on Jonathan Edwards' Doctrine of God. Uh I've uh I'm a major C. S. Lewis, I don't know, I I think I've I've written enough books on C. S. Lewis now that I can call myself a Lewis scholar. Oh, that's a little bit weird. Um I'm just I'm more of like a C. Lewis lover. I just love his stuff. And so I've written a few books on Lewis, uh, love to teach him. Uh and then I teach our what in our uh undergrad programs, we have a freshman theology class, which basically is kind of uh an overview of doctrine um and the Bible with some practical bent. So that's kind of an orientation to our theological vision out here for every freshman that comes through our school.
SPEAKER_01So I'm I'm even older than you. Uh and my yeah, I went to Wake Forest for undergrad, and my you see, you take one of everything, so my religion class, freshman year, first class I ever took in the morning uh was called Faith and Imagination. And it was uh we read um what did we read first? We read Surprised by Joy, and we read The Problem of Pain, then we read The Space Trilogy, and then we turned and read The Hobbit and the Whole Ring trilogy in 13 weeks. And uh the professor was like, if you can understand these two guys right now, they're gonna be a big deal in your adult life. Well, this was before Peter Jackson ever got a hold of, you know, it's kind of fun. And he told me, by the way, he told me uh he'd been studying Lewis for forever. And he said, I am not a pro at Lewis, I'm an amateur, and he was a Latin scholar, so he's you know, amateur means lover.
SPEAKER_00That's all yep. That's same, same. But uh, but it is fun to teach Lewis, and so I've I've uh enjoyed getting to do that over the years. That's really cool.
SPEAKER_01That's cool. So let's let's move to what can actually help our listeners, and that is this whole thing with emotional sabotage. I want you to unpack that, but I I you know my sense is there are probably a lot of contributing factors, but my sense is it it's harder than ever emotionally to lead. And uh I I mean I could go on and on about that, but just the title caught my eye. What what is this all about? And you say you've written a lot of books. I've never written a book where it's been fun writing, it's just something that's got to get out of me. So, what what what is it that had to get out of you to make this uh become a book?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um so a number about about, I don't know, 15 years ago, I read a book called uh Um A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix by uh Edwin Friedman, who was a who was a Jewish rabbi family therapist writing in the 90s. And in that book, he sort of describes modern society as um he called it chronically anxious, which the word anxiety doesn't quite have the same kind of what he meant was um it was highly reactive, um, like sitting on a powder keg. Anything could set it off, and everybody would then go into a big social stampede and run left and run right. Um, and that leaders were constantly any any leader who sought to lead well was going to be essentially uh was gonna be sabotaged, meaning um different uh reactive and immature people, in fact, the most reactive and immature people in the community um would seek to hijack the agenda um and would be enabled in their efforts by all of the reasonable people in the room. So um every so something would happen and blow up, and um and and then so somebody's really upset, and then now the the reasonable folks want you to cater and accommodate whatever the loudest, squeakiest wheel is, which inevitably ends up meaning that your institution, whether it's a home, whether it's a church, whether it's a school, whether it's a business, is inevitably taken off mission. And so what I what I did is I I read that years ago, found it really helpful, but Friedman wasn't a Christian. Um and uh and I thought, you know, there's lots of really good insights, but it needs to be rooted in more biblical soil. So then I took it and um, with the help of the scriptures and some other things that I'd read, kind of pulled this together. Um, almost there's a little bit of a kind of translation project at work where I'm trying to take uh psychological categories and and give them more biblical vocabulary as a way of helping leaders realize you're you have an institution, you're the head, you're leading, you have a body, and if you're being fruitful, you should expect sabotage. And sabotage for me is basically any attempt to take you off mission, to get you to do something other than what it was that God has called you to do as an institution. So whether it's a church or a school, you have different missions, um, but the sabotage dynamics are often the same. And so, what kind of leaders are needed in order to endure uh sabotage? And the the term, Friedman's term uh in his book was um a leader is a um self-differentiated person with a non-anxious presence, which just rolls off the tongue. Um, and uh, but as I looked at the uh description of how like what how he described it, I realized you know the biblical term for this is just sober-mindedness. And so then I use sober-mindedness as kind of the anchoring leadership virtue um that leaders have to cultivate.
SPEAKER_01It's a I'm hearing I'm hearing of we don't have a spirit of fear and timidity. Is this yes, that kind of link?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And uh, and and part of what Friedman was describing um was the problem, what I call the problem of the passions. So passions are these sort of intuitive, instinctive, impulsive reactions that we have, things like fear and uh desire and anger and pity. Um so you have we have these passions, and passions are really they're good, um, but they're powerful and therefore they're dangerous. When you're led by your passions, you typically are don't see things very clearly. You're blinded by your anger, your fear, and you make make dumb calls. Um, and so uh sober-mindedness, right, it comes from the idea of drunkenness, it's the opposite of drunkenness. And part of what I I I'm commending is frequently in in institutions, we get drunk on our passions or on other people's passions. That they become this kind of intoxicant that uh means we don't see clearly, we make knee-jerk, quick fix type decisions as opposed to thinking about what's good for the long term. And as a result, we're drunk on our passions, and so what do we need? Well, we need to sober up. This is kind of a biblical exhortation in a number of places. Sober up, um, see things clearly, gird up the loins of your mind, um, and then lead through it with steady presence. And so that's kind of the heart uh of what the book is getting at is this idea of sober-minded leadership as an antidote to a passions-riddled society.
SPEAKER_01I think if I remember my Latin right, passion is also suffering. Yes, that's exactly right. It is. It is. So, yeah, yeah. Um, so what like let's get down to nuts and bolts.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So when I'm when I'm uh I was at the we called the second year in seminary middler year. So when I was in my middler year at Princeton, I I went through to be a professor. I didn't want to be a pastor, but uh, pretty quickly figured out I'm not smart enough to be a professor and I don't like I'm I'm way too into being around people all the time. I don't want to sit and research all the time. So uh long story short, got wrestled with God and realized I need to go into ministry. Okay. So I came home and a family dinner, and my granddad says, uh, you know, patriarch family, what are you gonna do after seminary? And I said, Well, I I think I'm I think I'm gonna go into the pastorate. He said, You don't want to do that. And he was chair of the board of deacons of his church, most generous guy in his church, loved, taught Sunday school forever, just an amazing man. And uh I said, Well, thanks, granddad, but I, you know, I think I this is what I want to do. And he said, You don't want to do it. He was a Marine, World War II, so I went sempre five on him. I said, I think it's my duty. There you go. Right? So and that didn't work. So went back and forth. He kept getting closer to me. It was a coffee table between us, and our faces were about this far apart. And he finally said, Listen to me, do you want to spend the rest of your career knowing no matter how well you do your job and how faithful you are, if you make the wrong handful of people mad, you're done. And I said, Oh, church doesn't work that way. But it does. Is that what you're talking about?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that absolutely is. Um, yeah, so uh I you know when you when you look at situations where um you're trying to be faithful, say if you're a good if you're a um if you're a good pastor, you recognize hey, there's some issues in the church, and so you set out, I'm gonna address them from the Bible, and you begin to preach. And the people who had been your fans maybe before, all of a sudden now he's left off preaching and he's got to meddling, and and now now there's an issue, and you're gonna get emails. And frequently, and especially in the modern environment where um, you know, there is a uh kind of an industrial complex devoted to um whistleblowing and things like that, which has a value. There's there really are sinful pastors, and there really is toxic leadership and that sort of thing exists, but it's kind of jumped the shark to the point where anything, um if you displease anybody, if you make them unhappy, they'll inevitably say that you've harmed us, you've abused us, and all of a sudden the accusations start flying. Well, the way that this often works for for pastors is that um you can think of it as like a um concentric circle. So um in the book, I for example, I use the example of Peter at Antioch as a really kind of case study of how these dynamics work. And so in that situation, you had these unbelievers out in the world, these unbelieving Jews who were unhappy that Peter was eating with the Gentiles, and they were putting some serious pressure on the church in Jerusalem, um, you know, persecuting them, kicking them out, doing all sorts of stuff. So James, who's got a flock that's being under pressure, sends some messengers to Peter saying, Hey man, maybe you could help us out. You know, the people are hearing that you're doing this, and it's really causing some problems. And so maybe, you know, you could you could just stop for a while until things calm down. And it says that Peter withdrew fearing the circumcision group. He he withdrew from table fellowship with God's people because out of fear, and then um the other guys in his circle um followed him. And it says, even Barnabas, even Barnabas, the guy who had been instrumental in Paul's, yeah, the encourager, and the guy had been instrumental in in so many situations with Paul and his conversion, even he's led astray by this hypocrisy. And so you just you can see the different groups kind of and the pressure works its way in. So the pressure starts in the world, and then it's kind of laundered through different Christians who are susceptible to various kinds of pressure until it gets to you who's trying to be faithful. And Peter is sort of the domino that falls, bar Barnabas falls as a result. And then Paul looks at this and says, now wait a minute, no, and so then he he refuses to be one more domino in that chain of pressure, and instead he opposes Peter to his face and he brings what to that point had kind of been under the table conflict, he brings that out into the light where it can be openly discussed. But that's the sort of thing that I have in mind where various kinds of pressure, usually beginning out in the world, but kind of subtly steering different groups all the way in, um, you know, maybe you could just not say that. You know, if you say that group, that, you know, like you said, uh, if if you preach on that, these five people are going to leave the church along with all their tithe dollars. And so all of a sudden, pastors have big steering wheels on their back. And part of being a faithful leader is learning to recognize where your potential steering wheels are and then to refuse to be steered.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's good. Let's park there for a minute. Talk to me about that in real time. Walk me through. Somebody listening today needs to understand that at a more granular level.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh probably the most actionable advice I give in the book is learning to pay attention to your own passions, reluctances, hesitations, you name it. So it's the it's the moments in the meeting where you start to say something and it catches in your throat, and you just kind of go, not gonna say that. And if you stop and interrogate, why not? You realize, well, what I was gonna say was true, but if I said it, a lot of things would follow. That person's gonna get upset, and then these other three people who are friends with that person are gonna be put some pressure on me to get back in line, and so best just not to say it. And so learning to recognize what what you just discovered there is a steering wheel. You just discovered that on your back is a big steering wheel that says, if you say this, there there will be problems, and and it's the sort of thing that we're we're very intuitive. Oftentimes, very little of this is done, you know, nobody actually says, I'm gonna shoot the hostage, but there are all kinds of hostages in the room. Um, and and nobody, so it's it's all kind of subtle under the table, and it has to do with those again, those reactions. So when you recognize, hey, uh okay, I just was about to say something true and I caught myself, now you have to ask, okay, well, does courage actually demand that I say it now? Right? Does courage demand that I have to say the thing that I that caught in my throat? Or perhaps there's times where it could be wisdom, this isn't the right meeting for that. But once you've identified there's a sore spot where there's certain, there's an elephant in the room that we're not allowed to talk about, as a leader, it becomes incumbent upon you to lean in there and say, Hey, this can't be the unspoken. We can't just walk on eggshells. Um, one of my favorites, um, one of my favorite examples of this, uh, your your your audio your pastors will will appreciate this. Imagine if um if you're on a team of pastors, you got multiple preachers, and everybody says, Hey, uh, we're gonna preach a sermon this weekend on marriage, and uh you have two choices of uh passage that you could preach on. Um either, Pastor, we'd like you to preach on husbands love your wives, like Christ loved the church, or we'd like you to preach on um wives submit to your husbands, like Sarah submitted to Abraham. So we'll let you choose, Pastor, which one do you want? And inevitably, I do that everywhere I go, and in every everybody knows which one you're instinctively, which one yes, and which one all of a sudden is oh no. Right? And it's because oh no, if I say if I have to preach that that uh submission passage straight down the middle, it might be there might be some problems. But the other one, if I just get up there and thunder, love I'm like love her like Jesus, men, love her like Jesus, I know I'll get all kinds of amens and applause. Um, and so we have that that that's an example of instinctively we're aware of the issues in our congregations. Yes, and we sometimes we we get adept at avoiding them lest we cause a blow-up.
SPEAKER_01Well, so the the just I don't know that I I I pastored for 15, 16 years, probably depends on who you ask. But uh but uh it was a long time ago, and we're in a different world now. And and I here's a here's a weird way of encapsulating what I'm seeing. Uh I was watching a a podcast interview with Jerry Seinfeld, uh, what's wrong with the world today? Jerry's like a stoic, right? He's he's not a faith-based guy at all. He said, you know, the problem with uh today is um we can't laugh. I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, used to be uh we we don't get along because we don't have a way to laugh. Well, what do you mean? Well, think about it. There was a day not too long ago where any night of the week you had a chance to sit down in front of a TV and laugh together at the end of the day. It created a giant catharsis. The problem is we can't make any jokes now. I could never make my show now. I would get attacked by every group, I've offended everybody, and we've got to get back to a place where we can actually make a joke and people not. So that's what pastors are living in, and it's it's it's like walking through a freaking minefield. So when you step on that bomb, and whether you meant to or not, did you learn any practical steps for for for how to navigate that, other than just going all brave heart and paint your face blue and let them kill you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it's a two things come to my mind right there. One is what what Seinfeld is getting at um is a key indicator of kind of institutional health, which is playfulness. Um there's a way you think about your family, you can think about your church. When everything becomes deadly serious and there's no pressure relief by humor. So I I'll sometimes do this when um I'm doing marriage counseling. Um, you know, you try to you you crack a joke in the middle of it, and if both the husband and the wife are able to laugh with you, in my head, I think there's still hope here. Sure. If they're not, if they can't laugh at each other, if they mean you know, husband laughs at himself, wife laughs, or laugh at the situation, if they're unable to do that, boy, this we're in some big trouble here because uh that kind of playfulness and laughter is a sign of health, it's a sign of trust, it's a sign of humility. Um, but when things get highly reactive and passions driven, there's no room for that. Everybody kind of goes lizard brain and and it's like everything is deadly, deadly serious. And so I think you're right to identify kind of that humor and that playfulness as a key indicator. It's not the cause, but it's an indicator of something more fundamental. What I what I uh commend in the book, um again, uh biblical examples just really helped me. So Paul, in uh when he's going on his final journey to Jerusalem, he's he's been told by, you know, prophesied have said, Hey, you're going, you're gonna need arrested, you're probably gonna die. And he's going into this going, I know this is gonna be a big mess. But when he gets there, um the the church says, Hey, people have heard these lies about you. Would you put some of those lies to bed? Would you go to the temple and participate in some uh purification rites for these guys? And maybe that'll put this whole controversy to bed. Paul says, sure, he's a peacemaker. I'm happy to help. And so he goes and he tries to put these false, these rumors to bed. And what strikes me is um that's live at peace with all men, he's trying to be a peacemaker, and it doesn't work at all. Immediately there's a riot, immediately he steps in it, there's liars, there's a big mob. And what always strikes me about that story is that Paul never loses his head. Everybody else is losing their head, everybody else is lighting their hair on fire, the the tribune's totally out of his league, he has no idea what's going on, and yet Paul, trusting the Lord, knowing God's writing this story, and this is this is the story that he wrote for me. This is I'm trusting him that yeah, I just stepped in it. This is your you know, I just stepped on the landmine, and I didn't I was trying to avoid it, I was trying to make peace, but. Oh, I stepped on it anyway. Don't get thrown. I'm steady. I'm stable. So I define in the book sober-mindedness is a clarity of mind, a stability of soul, and a readiness to act. And so clarity of mind, you're seeing clearly because you're not clouded by your passions. There's a stability, you're anchored. Why are you anchored? Because you're trusting the Lord, you've got fear of the Lord, you've got some gravity that comes from knowing God. And then there's a readiness to act, to see what opportunities present themselves. You're not reacting, right? Just knee-jerk. Instead, you're looking, what's the opportunity that God has just sent me? And that's what Paul does in that story is he sees, he sees every everybody else sees a mob. He sees, oh, this looks like a congregation. I'd like to give my testimony. Can I please have the microphone? And he wants to step out there and testify to Jesus in a way that would commend the gospel to this audience. And so he's looking, he sees opportunity and he's ready to act because he's sober-minded.
SPEAKER_01All right. I might actually be playing devil's advocate here. This might be the wrong thing to say. But uh Paul didn't have a wife and kids to provide for. Yeah. So that makes it a whole lot easier. You know, having been a husband and dad in a church, you can't that's your first parish, right? Is the home, you know, and you're worse than an unbeliever if you don't take care of them. So one thing we're looking at this month is when do you know should I stay or should I go? Right. Right? Particularly for pastors, but but for anybody, what are the telltale signs that all right, we're done here, or suck it up and get on with it, right? Do you do you have any advice or wisdom to people that are facing that question? I mean, it's January. Everybody's gonna lose 10 pounds and balance the checkbook and get the right job. So, like what would be your suggestion for the answer to that question?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so if you find yourself in um in a in a church or in a setting where you've got just kind of chronic pain, just pain, pain, pain, over and over and over again. Everything everything seems to go wrong. I think the first, I think that the the first task is to pursue clarity. I think this is what Paul was doing by bringing that under the table conflict into the light. Peter's trying to kind of sidle away. And Paul says, no, no, no, we need to have a debate. We need to put this up on top of the table, no elephants, no eggshells. Let's just have a very frank discussion to clarify what's at stake in the issue. And so if I'm a pastor in a situation where there's just lots of stuff circulating in the air, it's under the table, um, I'm thinking, what are how am I gonna bring this to a head? How am I gonna bring this to a moment of clarity? Because I think that's gonna be the key thing that will help answer your question. And you should be trying, you should be praying about that. You should be asking the Lord, Lord, I see these problems, I want to bring it to a head. I'm not gonna shy away from the conflict, I'm not gonna be um reckless, but I'm also gonna be clear. And so that's where you're gonna come into those meetings. You're gonna so you're moving forward, and it might mean you preach a sermon that's gonna touch all the third rails. It might mean you have an elders' meeting or a deacon's meeting where you're gonna put the issue on the table after much thought and prayer, and you're and your whole point is bring the clarity. I've been in I've been in this situation where there was challenge, uh, there were challenges, there was differences of opinion, but it was really murky. And I trusted God, and my goal was bring as much clarity to the situation as possible. And you might get to the point where you go, look, we're just so far apart, this can't be fruitful. One of us has to go, and that's where you do have to trust, you have to trust God. He said, Seek first my kingdom and my righteousness, all these things will be added. That that was a promise from Jesus to say, you put my kingdom first, you put acting righteously first, you put that at the top, I will take care of you. You you will not, you I will, I will do that. And so rather than, oh no, I might lose my job, and that will what about my family? No, Lord, the Lord said he's gonna take care of that if you put him first. And so that's what you're doing when you go into those uh those meetings. That's good.
SPEAKER_01That's good. Well, uh, you know, we're rounding out our time, and I don't I always authors who spend time writing a book always have one other thing that I didn't get to. What's a final thought you want to share with us from your research and your writing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think um, I think, you know, I mentioned uh that stability of soul idea, and I and I highlighted the role of gravity. Um, you want to fear the Lord, you want to have some substance in some way. You're not tossed, you know, but the Bible talks about children are tossed to and fro by the winds of doctrine or by passions, right? And adults are supposed to be steady and stable. Um, but the the corresponding thing is you could have a lot of gravity and be very somber and severe. And so the the counterpart there is gladness. You need both gravity and gladness. And uh in the book, I commend there's a great image from the Psalm 19 uh of the sun as kind of a model for it's the sun reminds the psalmist of two masculine images: a bridegroom leaving his chamber on his wedding night, and a and a warrior who runs his course with joy. And so the sun for me has become a really it's a reminder, right? You walk outside every day and the sun comes up, blazing across the sky, and you should look at that and you say, that's the kind of leader I want to be. It's big, it's substantive, it has gravity, it pulls things into its orbit, and it's bright and joyful and glad. And that's the kind of leadership that God calls us to because it's the kind that then pulls ever pulls everybody else into our into our orbit because we're orbiting the true sun. We're orbiting Christ, and he's the sun at the center of every solar system. So if we do that, we're we're we image him, we reflect him, and we pull our institutions after us. So gravity and gladness, that's the call for us as leaders.
SPEAKER_01That's so good. And if people want to uh find you, uh where can we go to learn more of what you're learning and uh follow follow your work?
SPEAKER_00So I'm on uh the only social media I have is on Twitter or X or whatever we call it these days. Joe underscore Rigney is my is my handle. Uh I'm frequently Canon Press. Uh Canon Plus is a uh subscription service uh that the one of the ministries here in town. Um, and uh I do a lot of different things there. And for years I wrote at Desiring God. So um, and I'm a regular columnist at World Opinions. So I kind of have a bunch of different places all around. So World Opinions, Desiring God, Canon Plus, those would all be places that you could uh you could find me. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh Joe, thanks for the work that you're doing. I think that this book will be super helpful. Uh I I I really don't, you know, Grandad was right. Yeah and being prepared for that reality is is uh maybe more important today than it was 30 years ago or whenever it was that granddad and I had that conversation. So thank you for your work and thanks for joining us. If you're listening today, you're like, I didn't catch all that, uh go to Vandercast.com, put your email address in, we'll send you the show notes, we'll send you what's coming up. We will not send you an offer for Ginsu knives or a Chia Pet or any other extra things, just a podcast, promise. So uh take notes of those and look at some of the things we're doing this year. We got a pretty fun, new, exciting way we're gonna be rolling that out so that we can help introducing you to uh people that are on Team Jesus and help you figure out how to build and run and keep a great team as you're trying to get something done for him.