Well, hey everybody. Welcome to another uh edition of the Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast. Great to have you here, and I'm super excited. This is one of my favorite things is to introduce our audience to my friends. And I've said many times, uh I've got our youngest kid says, so does that mean you're like Jimmy Fallon for the church? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know that I want to be that. But uh it's today, my friend Rob Ketterling is with us. Rob pastors in Minnesota, and I'm surprised you're not wearing like five sweaters because we're recording in December. But uh there's no snow yet. Well, it got down in the 50s in Houston this weekend, and we pulled all the plants in and you know, like hide the dogs. Yeah, it was exactly, exactly. It was 10 degrees here. That's a cold that I hope the Lord does not call me to. Exactly. Rob pastors an amazing church in Minnesota, and uh I I I want to talk about Rob's latest project in a minute because it this might be the single best thing you can do for your church is listen to this podcast. You selfishly, as a leader, should listen to what Rob's up to and some of the insights he has. But before we do all that, Rob, tell us a little bit of your story and how you ended up, uh, where you are, and a little bit a little bit about the church.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so thanks. And uh yeah, it is freezing cold here, but we love it. This is home. This is where I was raised and born and raised in Minnesota. Went away to Bible college in Louisiana, which is where I met a ton of amazing people, um, and then came back and started this church 29 years ago, believe it or not, 29 years ago from 13 people. And this is the crazy thing, because we're gonna talk about generosity. And um, I started the church on my credit cards, five Visa Gold credit cards with a $20,000 limit each, $100,000. Now, that is not the way that any church multiplication network would tell you, ARC, nobody would tell you to do this.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Did that.
SPEAKER_02Did you use ARC? Did you use NAM? No, I used Amex.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I used, yeah, and and what's crazy, our conference room, literally, if you were to go in our our central building, our conference room is called the Visa Gold Conference Room. And I told them, I said, I never want you to forget the craziness that I did. Now, the church world thinks that's crazy, but the marketplace leaders, which I found out, they love it. They actually say, Hey, you're one of us, you risk everything just like me. So, yeah, so we we started with 13 people and we had to break every barrier, the hundred. I mean, we were down to like 60 some people when we after we launched. So we broke 100, 200, 400,000, 800,000, the multi-site, the 5,000 barrier, and now there's about uh 8,500 people on a weekend uh that attend the church with 11 different campuses, and now we're starting locations, which are places that are coached by us. Uh they still remain autonomous, but they run our play, and they're what we called River Valley locations.
SPEAKER_02Wow. So cool. And in a place that's kind of hard to reach.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're we're Blue State Um and Walls is our governor, which the nation got to see who he is. And um we're not like I jokingly say, and I know it's not this clear, but down south, it's kind of like, hey, do you go to church? And they say, Yeah, you say, Well, are you a Baptist or are you Pentecostal? You know, it's kind of like those are the main branches where up in Minnesota, it's like, well, are you Catholic or are you Lutheran? Right. Or are you a nun of the above? And are you a nun? And when you say, Oh, we're uh a spirit-filled church, they're almost like, What is that? Like, we're are you in the wrong state? So that that that is the response, kind of like they've never heard of it, you know.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, our podcast, if if you've listened for any length of time, you know, I focus on one little lane, and that is how do you build and run and keep a great team? And we do that through churches. But you know, I think uh the longer I work with churches, the more I think, and Rob, I'd love for you to give me your thoughts on this. I think there are two perennial, always critical issues that hold back the growth of the church. One of them is staffing. Yeah, do I have the right people? And the other is funding. Do I have enough to get stuff done? Or am I gonna have to get a sixth credit card? Right. So if you're a leader listening to this, Rob has written an amazing book called The Generous Life. And and oh, William, you're doing a book promotional podcast. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm doing a get you more resource to get your ministry done podcast. Get you more resource so you can build and run and keep a great team. So this has nothing to do with trying to sell books, it has to do with getting more resource to you so you can get more done for Jesus. So uh, Rob, that's sorry to give the sermonette. I guess you can't take the preaching out of the guy, even if he quits preaching.
SPEAKER_01But uh, but it's right. And and it's so interesting. I I've said these three things. Like I've said, uh, whoever has the best team wins, you know, and and when I grow my church, I'm like, whoever has the best team wins. And and part of that is God brings them to you, and part of it is the people you develop, but the best team wins. And then I've said over and over again, don't do stupid stuff. If you want to grow your church, don't do stupid stuff. Learn how to make smart decisions. Okay. And then the third thing I've said is you've got to find fuel for the ministry. And and I didn't realize this until I read in the Gospels where it talks about the ladies that paid for the ministry of Jesus. We just think that he just like always told his disciples, go fishing, um, you know, God will provide for you almost like he did manna. It literally tells us that there were three women that funded the ministry of Jesus. And so I was like, oh, look at that. I gotta have, I gotta, I gotta have a great team, I gotta not do stupid things, and I've got to figure out how I can get this fuel to fuel the who's gonna be discipled and believe in the vision enough to fuel the mission.
SPEAKER_02That's great. That's great. So you wrote this book. I mean, it wasn't, gosh, I need to write a book. I I've never felt that way. But it's like, oh gosh, I've got to write a book because there's something in me that's gotta get out. Uh tell me, tell me what led to writing the generous life, and uh then let's dive into a little bit of what you learned while you're writing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I mean, we were we were just growing in our generosity as a church, and people started leaning in saying, Will you coach us? Will you do this? And uh I started coaching people, and we started bringing in churches and they would pay to come in, and then God spoke to me and said, You can't charge anybody for this. I've given you this and I'm gonna take care of you, and I I want you to give it away. And and so I started giving away that what I had learned, all the lessons. And I mean, even down to the first lesson of the first time a widow ever gave money to the church, I was gonna give it back to her. Like I somebody said, Hey, we were counting the offering, church is small, you know, a couple hundred. And they said, Hey, uh, sister so-and-so, she gave money, and I was like, We can't take her money, we got to give it back. And the next day I was uh as I was praying, the Lord said, You can't give her money back. And I was like, Lord, she's a widow. And he said, She didn't give it to you, she gave it to me. And he goes, If you give it back, you're saying you're her source and you're caring for her. But when she gives it to me, she's saying I'm her source and I care for her. And he said, You are never their source. And by the way, yes, you're gonna get widows' money and single parents and young married and and even millionaires' money, but guess what? It's not your money, you are stewarding what they are giving to me. So I'm learning all these lessons and I'm passing these on, and then God says, Give it for free. And I started doing accelerators and training. Like this year, I'll train about 2,600 pastors in this and do 12 accelerators around the nation. And everyone's like, we keep hearing you tell us all this stuff. Could you put it in a book? And I'm like, You want it in a book? Like, I'm telling you everything, anyways. And they're like, No, if if if we all can't bring you in to guest speak, but if you could put it in a book, we can put what you're saying in their hands and then let the Holy Spirit work on them and disciple them. And and it was out of three years of requests of will you please put this in a book, that I finally was like, All right, I'm gonna put it in a book, I'm gonna put it in a book, and that's what I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Wow. So, what have you learned in every time I write a book? It's if you haven't written a book, it's a weird process. And most of the time, it's changing some now, self-publishing and hybrid publishing. But usually you get an idea, it takes you a long time to write about it, and then you go into publication, and then you go into launch. And during the launch, you do all these podcasts and interviews and things. And by the end of launch time, every time I've written a book, I wanted to rewrite the book because I've learned more.
SPEAKER_01It's true.
SPEAKER_02Since how doing all the so, what have you learned? What are you learning? What are some great things that uh people listening today could just grab hold of and apply today that would help them uh build a more generous life? And if they're leading a church or ministry, a more generous church or ministry.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you're absolutely right that you want to add things to it because um even though this would I would say this is a life message, um, which I didn't ask for. Our first offering was $300. Um, and I gave it all away. Um, and my wife was like, Do you ever want to get paid? And I was like, Oh, I gotta figure that out. And then I'm I launched the church on Visa Gold credit cards at 21% interest. If there's anybody that God would give this to Stewart, it wouldn't be me. I was like, I wouldn't pick me. And so I I've learned all these things, and and I I've so it's a life message. So you think you've got it perfected, if you will. And as soon as I wrote it, I did the audio recording. And when I'm doing the auto recording, I'm like, oh, I should have said that. And in the audio, I can say, going off script, I want to add this. And so the audio has a few bonus things, but for the most part, um I love what I wrote, and anything that I'm getting now is even it's like it's not that I knew it before and I should have put it in the book. It's like continued new thinking.
SPEAKER_02Um new ways of saying lessons you've learned.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's that's really it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, what would be uh some of those critical lessons? I mean, what's the it I think it's the getting to be the most tired question in podcasting? What would you tell a younger version of Rob about tithing? Like, you know, what what would be a few things that you've learned along the way that maybe some of our younger listeners wouldn't know or realize?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so here's here's one that and people can disagree with this. And like I did a a training in um England and they said, Hey, um, don't talk about tithing. And I was like, Why? I I really believe this. And they're like, Yeah, that's gonna put people off. And I was like, Well, how about if I just say what I believe and say I you might believe differently? I said, I okay, so let me start there. Um, I tithed as a little kid, and then tithed as a just my whole life, and then as a pastor, I was like, hey, we're gonna tithe and we're gonna do this, and then I got attacked early on. The tithe is old testament, the tithe is only on agriculture. Matter of fact, there's there's even a guy right now that's gonna be launching some six-part expose against the church and tithing and this, and and and I think he's all wrong, okay. Um, tithing predates the law, and so here's what I say to everybody settle what you believe about where does giving to God start. And for me, giving to God starts at the tithe, and here's why it's it's Abraham does it. When Jacob comes back to God, he says, If you get me out of this mess, you will be my God and I will tithe. And everything I have, he says. It wasn't like an only agriculture. So we see the early examples, Abraham's tithing from the spoils of war, and then Jacob saying, If you're my God, I'll tithe. Now let me stop there. I don't think man invented tithe. I don't think Abraham did. I actually think there's things that are not recorded in the Bible that we can just extrapolate and say, okay, there's something here about honoring God with what you have that shows he's your God. Go back to Cain and Abel. Do you think Cain and Abel were so good that they just thought up I'm gonna bring a sacrifice to God? I don't. I think that God was discipling them. If I'm your God, here's how you're gonna honor me, and here's how this faith-trust relationship's gonna work, and you're gonna bring this to me. Okay? And and I'm extrapolating that from the fact that I don't think Cain and Abel thought of a better way to honor God than God thought of being honored. Okay, so we have Cain and Abel, and by the way, Hebrews talks about uh Abel gave a better sacrifice, and the word that is better there, it means weightiness. Now it doesn't say tithe, but it implies that Abel literally brought a weight to his gift, and Cain chintzed on his gift.
SPEAKER_00And so I'm looking like they were trying not to tithe, Cain was trying to tithe not to tithe way back then.
SPEAKER_01Okay, now people say like it doesn't exactly say that, but again, I'm looking at the totality of the scriptures and putting the pieces together, and I've settled in my heart. This is what we teach at River Valley. A heart touched by God wants to start with a tithe. You do, you just look in the Old Testament, you see it's in the law, it's pre-law, it's Jesus like validates it, doesn't say it's stupid, and and New Testament goes up from there. And so what I would say to the settle it, and and and you have to dig in and it's gonna get attacked. And I think the enemy attacks this because an underfunded church is a weak church and it can't fulfill the mission, and and so I and I've never seen one thing that like has been bad from practicing practicing that principle of at least starting with the old testament minimum, as Randy Alcorn says, it's like the training wheels for a new testament giver. And so I'm starting with the training wheels, and I'm gonna go up from there. And and anybody that wants to disagree, I'm like, well, how is your percentage working for you? Like, I'm looking at what God's doing. And by the way, I I could go on this for a while, but Malachi, we I'll say this last about tithing. Malachi, when God says, come back to me, he says, bring the tithe. Okay, and I know that was Old Testament storehouse, I get it. But he literally says, and I'll open the windows of heaven. The windows are something that keeps one side from touching the other side. I have windows in my house. We were talking about how cold before this, we talked about how cold Minnesota is, right? Wow. And God literally gives us a picture and says, if you tithe, I will open the windows and what's on my side will come into your side. Wow. Okay. So I want to.
SPEAKER_02Okay, we're done. That was a great podcast. That's it. Drop the mic. That's right. That's right. That's really good. Okay. Um, so now you know, i if you're trying to this is such a uh it's funny that the church gets attacked for teaching a tithe because the people who tithe don't quit. Correct. And churches that train people to tithe have resources. Yes. So and the people who tithe don't keep tithing because they feel compelled. It's because they see the other side of that window. Yes. Right? Yeah. So what would be like two or three steps that uh a person could take right now to begin to apply the generous life to their life?
SPEAKER_01On the tithing, I think uh what we teach, and I know some people say incremental, but I just say go all in. Like get the windows open with God. And if you have to sell and realign, you know, Dave Ramsey, I'll go a little Dave Ramsey. Dave's Dave's like, sell the dog, do the, you know, like I'm like, all right, you know, get in position to do that and be obedient, and then go from there. And then um, here's what I would tell you. This is in the book, and I teach this. See God as the God of unlimited resources. Okay. We look at what we have and we start to think, God, what can you do with this? And we leave out the thing of He has unlimited resources. People say, Do you see the glass half full or half empty? And I say, I see it half full, and it comes with free refills. That's the God we serve. He's the free refill. And and so I'm looking at that. And then the other thing is, God spoke to me. So I was raised in a union household. My father worked in the auto workers union. So I understand union, I understand negotiation, I understand strike. I can remember when my dad would say we're going on strike kids, dad's got to go and pick it, and we got to cut back on expenses. I hope I can sign you up for baseball. You know what I'm saying? That was real world. Yeah. And that made me think that God was like management in the negotiation, and I was like the union. And I had to represent my cause to God and explain why I deserved more. And I had to be like, now don't keep any blessings from me and don't give them to those guys because they haven't earned it. We have worked hard for this. And I was in competition with other believers for the resources of God. And all of a sudden I realized, no, he's unlimited. And God spoke to me one day and he said, Do you know that I created the universe and it doesn't even stay the same size? Right now, the universe is getting bigger. I am the God of the expanding universe. I am not slicing up pieces of pie like a union negotiation. I have more where that came from. And so you gotta go, I think you go all in with the tithe, and then you've got to attack your misconceptions about this. Because a lot of us bring that. Maybe you were raised in poverty and you're like, I will never be poor, and I made this. No, you didn't. The Bible tells us it's God who enables us to uh earn this wealth, but you think because of how you raised poor, I did this, and you grasp your money, so you got to attack the lie that has grabbed you and then go on this journey and uh of generosity.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Wow. So we're we're airing this, we're recording right now in December, and uh I want to send out a uh a message from this to pastors because all of them uh churches have it better than nonprofits. So nonprofits, I think the current statistic is 72% of all giving for the year happens in December.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_02It's crazy, right? Uh churches, it's not quite that bad. Although in our church, uh oftentimes the joke was December 31st is the biggest month of the year. And it was true. It's true, it's true, it's true. So there's a little time sensitivity this to this for me because I know there are people right now they gotta prepare nine million Christmas Eve messages, or they gotta do this and they gotta make sure they get the visits in. But there's also this big chunk of generosity that needs to come in this year to fuel next year. What could pastors do right now, or what have you learned to do toward your end giving that they could take home right now and plug in in the next two weeks as they sprint toward the finish?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I'll back up because they can't do this this year, but they can do it next year, so I'll give them that tool too. So we do our big giving push in November, and we cast vision for it. Here's why. We get a giant offering, and by the way, I'll just throw it out here. We just had our miracle offering revealed this weekend. Our miracle offering above our tithe for our our kingdom builders, which is our over and above giving, our miracle offering in November was four million dollars, not pledged, four million dollars came into the church. And we have a goal for the giving in December, and now what this has done, because we did that in November, we revealed it early December, it activates a group of people called gap closers. There's gap closers that God has wired that they they they say, Does the church need my resources? Oh, they do. God has brought me here for a reason, they really do. There's people that say, I was debating between two numbers. Did God want me to give this or this? And when they see the remaining need, they go, you know what? God was probably speaking to me the bigger number, and and then they step up their giving. So, um, but what could they do right now? I would say uh letting people be aware of where you're at, aware of the way they can give, um, and that you are able to handle it. What do I mean by that? We see a lot of people give stock gifts, and they need several days to handle that. So if you have two weeks remaining, you you it probably is your last time to talk about stock gifts uh with two weeks to go. Um if You aren't receiving cryptocurrency, you should find a platform to receive that because people are giving that. I mean, we got six Bitcoin given to us. Um, you know, and by the way, we have a policy that a gift given is a gift received. We don't we don't speculate and hold. Somebody would say, Hold a gift coin, and I'm like, Nope.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. The the the Texas version of that is somebody, I mean that this sounds crazy, but every year, somewhere in December 30th, December 31, we'd end up with an oil field, literally. It's like, well, yeah, what do you do with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're selling it.
SPEAKER_02They gave me one of their oil fields. Okay, you sell it, you move on.
SPEAKER_01You don't yes, so it would be give them a strategy to give from their resources, make them aware of the need. Um, if you don't have, if you have a few projects left on your heart that the church has been pay pr paying for and praying about, um, share where you're at on concluding that because there is something within people, they're looking for money, places for their money to go in the final two weeks. People that are blessed think, wow, I have so much. And if you've discipled them well, they're not gonna build bigger barns, they're not gonna get done to the end of the year and go, what new house do I need to buy, or car, or this? And not that that's wrong, but there's a tendency to build bigger or add to your own. And there's something about somebody who loves the kingdom of God that says, Oh, I could use part of my bonus for that. And so making them aware of what is still in the heart of the church could activate people in those final two weeks to say, Oh, my my husband and I, we want to pay for that orphanage. I know there's 30,000 left, and we're gonna do it. And and and there's something about letting them know that their blessing can be turned into uh eternal good.
SPEAKER_02But I I I my experience, now you've been pastoring a lot longer than I ever did, but my experience is it it was always a balance or um it's like a plate of food. You got a main course and side dishes. The main course is here's what the Bible says, and here's what God can do for you. And this isn't a guilty message. This is you got more than you ever knew. There's more for you than you ever knew, right? That's one side. All right. The other side, you know, be in this world but not of it. The other side was I would make a list. Here are the things we need to get done this year that we're not gonna be able to get done. You know, what just like what you is that off, or is that how you would encourage pastors?
SPEAKER_01No, I I absolutely I would encourage them to have a list. Like people, people are used to that. Okay, and even think about this: the Bible says, the Lord says, I know that plans I have for you. Like, God has plans. Read Proverbs. It says, May your plans succeed. So He wants you to have lists and plans and things. And I literally I just left a staff meeting to come in here for this. And I said, We're gonna do a 30-year vision for our church because God has wired people to look at the vision and say, that's why I'm here. I can fulfill that. And I think having that list and and having the there's and I would start with a category before the more. There's those that are struggling to pay, and then there's those that have more than enough, and then there's you don't want to be in and of, and you gotta work that tension, and then there's a list. Um, it's all of the above.
SPEAKER_02And lots of things on the dinner plate.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And here's a saying that we we all are familiar with there's always room for dessert, right? There's always room for dessert, and the way that I view year-end giving to take care of those special projects, maybe that wasn't the main course, but it's dessert, and there's something built within them which says, uh, before the year ends, one more dessert. Let's give that towards that orphanage. One more dessert. Let's let's let's build that church in Eswatini. One more. I think there's something within us that says there's always room for dessert.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. Well, Rob, uh, any any last advice? And and then I do want to talk about how people can actually re uh get the book, but any last thoughts that you want to pass on about giving, about the generous life?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Um it's it's unlimited. Like I the Bible says in one of the translations says the world of the generous gets larger and larger. And I I gotta tell you, when you get on this journey, it is a journey that you feel God's smile. You you think like, How can I do this? And and it's when you when you do this in your church, what I've noticed is it gives permission for people that have been blessed with great resources to live for something different. Matter of fact, the tagline on the book says, giving meaning to your money. And that came from a rich person saying to me, Wow, thank you for kingdom builders. I'm thanking them for their gift, and they're saying, Thank you for this. You've given meaning to my money. And I just want you to know when you go on this journey, you're giving meaning to the money, uh, and we're building the kingdom. And for those that are in America, I know people around the world listen to this, but I share this startling fact like 80% of the kingdom of God financial resources are in the hands of American Christians. For numbers' sake, let's just say there's two and a half billion Christians on planet Earth. 80% of what those two and a half billion people own is in the hands of American Christians. If we don't get this right, if we don't live blessed to be a blessing, I think we're failing the body worldwide. Like we we are blessed to be a blessing. And so we better get this right as American Christians and do this right. And so that would be my challenge. Um, whether you get this book or any book, you should keep growing in this area and get this right because we we we've been given so much, and much is gonna be we are the one percenters. We we are the one percenters of the world, and we better get this right. And so um, yeah, and and and I'm not saying that to guilt, I'm saying that to wake us up, to live up to the world that God wants us to reach. And you just wait, you'll feel the smile of God on your life as you live blessed to be a blessing instead of just thinking about your own needs.
SPEAKER_02That's great. That's great. Yeah, I've I've got my copy because you were kind of. I think it's even signed. I love a signed book. Isn't that the best? Um, but you know, not everybody gets the signed copy. So, how do people get a copy? And I think, if I'm not mistaken, you guys figured out a way to make it affordable for churches to buy a bunch of them and let them go, you know, hand these out to people, let people go in and get a discount, you know, go through this together. Like, how does that all work?
SPEAKER_01Yes. So um obviously they can get the book on Amazon and we're into a second printing already, it's going amazing. But what we've noticed, and and I I I'll just say, like, churches are buying uh hundred, two hundred, five hundred. One church the other day, I uh it blew my mind. They ordered 2,000. They just said every single family in our church is gonna get this, and it blew me away. So we we you can get it. Obviously, if you're just doing one or two, you can go to Amazon. But if you're gonna go into bulk, we have a bulk discount. And um, you can go to robketterling.com or you can uh email, I'm gonna throw his email out there, logan.ketterling at rivervalley.org. He handles all of our uh influence, our network, our conference, and uh we have a bulk discount. Uh the best one is over a hundred, and it becomes affordable. And um it it it it is I I wish I could give it away for free. I really do. I really wish I could give it away. And I'll say this like I make my Kingdom Builders commitment that I'm growing in from profits from book sales. So it's it's it's kind of like my starting a second job to be generous and to be able to do this. So for me, it's been able to fuel my giving and to do that. Um, but it it yeah, I would I would say it is worth it and the bulk discount and um our church has it. Uh like I say, I I spoke for a church the other day in Louisiana, and the pastor said, I I really think every church needs to hear hear this. Like this is a new thing, and it just blesses me. And I'm I'm humbled that God would do you do this through me. Remember, I'm the guy that started the church on Visa Gold credit cards. So to God be the glory for this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I you know, I think I said at the beginning of the podcast, I think that uh churches have two all the time uh challenges they have to face getting the right team put together and then getting the funding put together. Yeah I I I think that actually breaks down to a personal life as well. You gotta get the right people around you in your life, and you gotta make sure you're providing for your family and blessing others. And and if you do those two things, and don't do stupid stuff, I'm gonna add that. Um I I think if you do those two things, your life's gonna be not just generous, but blessed, and it's gonna be uh you're you're gonna be writing endorsements for these sorts of things. So whether it's this book or another, go figure out this amazing opportunity God's given us that so few of us just kind of get clouded vision on. So I yeah. Thanks, Rob, and thanks for all you're doing. And uh I hope to have you back on after the fifth and sixth and seventh printing.
SPEAKER_01Come on, thank you so much for having me on. And I love what you do. We've been connected a lot of years, so it's fun to do this together.
SPEAKER_02It is, and of course, the show notes. If you go to Vandercast.com, you'll get all the show notes. Uh, you can give your email address, we'll send you what's coming up, and we won't send you an offer for Ginsu Knives or a Chia Pet or anything like that. But it's just the podcast. So thanks for tuning in, folks, and have a Merry Christmas.