Well, hey everybody, welcome to the Vander Blue and Leadership podcast, where one of my favorite things to do is introduce you to friends of mine. And today I want to introduce you to Carl Barnhill. Carl's running a pretty amazing company. He's really latched on to the idea that you know everything is moving visual. And if you don't believe me, uh tell me the last time you saw the word Starbucks on a coffee cup. It hadn't been there in a long time. It's a visual now. And I got a chance to visit with him at Modern Church Leader Conference, and we just hit it off and realized this is somebody that my friends need to meet. So, Carl, thanks for joining us today. Welcome.
SPEAKER_01William, always a pleasure, man. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. Hey, listen, uh, why don't you do that? Just introduce yourself to the audience. Maybe give a little bit of your life story. I mean, who ends up wanting to do church visuals as a living? Like, tell me, tell me what the road was.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely, man. Um, so I started my career early 20s working for a lady named Kay Arthur. Um, she was a Bible study uh teacher, uh, and she had a television, yeah, Precept Ministries International. Yes. Uh, so I I came out of college and got like a like a junior editor position uh on her television show. Uh and this show at the time, I mean, this is 20 uh plus years ago, so we're talking um huge international audience. I think the show went to like a hundred million homes worldwide or something crazy. Um, but this was like the height of it, wasn't like TBN, but it was kind of like that um that kind of that kind of vein Bible teaching program. We really did a lot to kind of bring it up into a little bit more modern uh context.
SPEAKER_00It's kind of like the the Chuck Swindahl.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. That that kind of era, Tony Evans, that that kind of era of people. Um and so I I started as an editor on her show, and then within six months, my boss left, and then another six months, his boss left. So I find myself early 20s, not knowing that much. I I'd done radio and things before, but being asked to lead a media department at this international ministry of people, probably a team of 10 or 12 at the time, all older than me. Um, and so I learned some leadership lessons very, very quickly of how to lead a team of people that are older than me and more really more experienced than me. Uh so I led the media team there at Precept for a bit, uh, and then went to a church, a large church in in Mississippi. The the I think it was the largest church in Mississippi at the time. Um, and so this was a church of multiple campuses, and I came in as the as the video guy that was that was working both the Sunday experience. So I was in charge of the volunteers and making sure that Sunday happened. And this is before Rezi uh and and like easy live stream uh things. Uh, and so there there was a lot of like physically hooking up drives, driving them across town to campuses, hooking them up with the light system, and hang on a second, turn another chorus, we're not ready. You know, that that kind of, you know, so it was very uh, you know, uh kind of crazy back then. Uh but I did that, and then I did content also. So I was the guy making videos and motion graphics and stuff like that. And so this was a large church. Uh this was we probably did uh, I mean, this was 20,000 people on a Sunday, something like that. Um, and and I was the only guy. I was the only guy doing both, and then eventually they split me off, and I was the only guy doing um the what year would that have been? This would have been, let's see, this would have been probably 12 years ago, probably 15 years ago.
SPEAKER_00We were probably Pine Lake Church for those playing at home and uh fantastic church. Um, we've gotten to do a ton of search work for them over the years, and it's big enough that I think my first trip there was about that time, and I went for my first meeting and I just went to the camp, I put in Google Maps for you know Pine Lake Church. I ended up in the Clinton, Mississippi campus.
SPEAKER_01Well, that that was in a strip mall, so you were you were in the place.
SPEAKER_00But I didn't even think to put you know, broadcast campus, reservoir campus, you know, that sort of thing. But uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, so I found myself there and I was the only content guy, and my thought is uh or was, God kind of laid it on my heart that if if I'm the only guy at a church this size doing motion graphics, doing video content, uh, all of it, there's no way a church of 5,000, 2,000, 200 is going to afford a guy like me, bring in a guy like me. Uh and what I found there too is that motion graphics was very rare. I thought that everybody did it. I didn't know that like I was a rare bird that could do motion graphics. Uh and I still find that, that it's hard to find motion designers in the church space that that love Jesus. Um and so that led me on a journey to to start this company. I worked for a church after that, New Spring Church in South Carolina, just to kind of get the boat closer. Um, and then uh then launched. I was only at Newspring a couple years because the the it moved very fast uh where churches needed uh content. They needed and they couldn't afford a graphic designer or a or a video uh position or multiple creative people uh full time. And so could we provide a path that gives them off-the-shelf media content and also custom stuff for a lower rate? And I, you know, I work for a bunch of churches, and so the it kind of works for me to do that. Uh, and then that kind of took off, and now we're 30 people on the team, something like that. So it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00And and uh I gotta tell you, Carl, when I really uh the light bulb went off for me when we were filming a video together, was um I I thought about my mother's church. It's a great church, it's in the hills of North Carolina, uh small town. It's just what you'd think, you know, red brick church, kind of the county seat church, sort of thing. And uh I think it's been here 200 years now. I mean, it's an old church. Maybe 150 people on a Sunday, maybe 200. Plenty of resource, but 150 or 200, which still makes them larger than average. Average in the US for Protestants is about 109 on a Sunday. So if you say, well, we're just a small church, we're 125. No, actually, you're running 25% above average.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I heard 64 recently.
SPEAKER_00I heard that that could be, that could be. Yeah, crazy. You know, it is football season in the SEC, so it could be down to a little bit right now.
SPEAKER_01That's fair. That's fair. Good point, good point.
SPEAKER_00Uh, you know, the pandemic hits, and you know, necessity's the mother of invention. And so John, her young pastor who had just arrived, said, Well, let's start live streaming. And the reality is, I mean, who knows? It's a bit of a straw man argument. But if the new young preacher had come into town and said, I want to start video streaming, I I don't know that that would have gotten out of committee, right? Like that they would have died on the vine. Um, but because the pandemic, and John had his like, I'll get the age wrong, but nine-year-old daughter holding a DLSR camera, and that was how they captured things and then they figured out. And I just thought, you know, so many churches have gone to this now and and should, right? It's the new front door to the life in the congregation, but none of them have it figured out. And honestly, when people call us for a search, like I people may not know this, but half our work is for churches under 500. Uh half our church work is for churches under 500 in attendance. I think uh something like 30% of our work is for churches under 200 in attendance. So we we serve a lot of churches like this. And every now and then they'll call and say, we really think we need to do video, we're ready to invest the money, we're we're willing to spend $50,000 on somebody. I'm like it's not, you're not, nobody's gonna be happy with that. The person making $50 and the product that comes out, everybody's gonna walk away sad. So for me, the light bulb went off when I heard, you know, this is an area where I don't, I don't know, is it fair to say fractional employment or outsourced employment? Or Yep, exactly right. Get part of a pro for part of the time, and that's probably all you need at a normal-sized church.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Yeah. And we've gotten the the price way down uh uh to down to under $300 a month to get you custom graphics and access to a whole library that you can kind of tweak and stuff too. So and we were told that. We were told I I we did a lot of research when we were uh kind of coming out with these uh like custom media plans that if you can get me under $300, I don't have to get uh approval for it. I don't have to go up the chain. Committee approval, right? Uh and so so we serve a lot of church plants in in that way, that they can spend $299 a month, so under $300, and get custom graphics from a pro uh and then have access to this whole library of pre-done stuff. So it really brings that $50,000 down to $300 a month. And you can go up a little bit from there, but like our highest monthly plan is $1,500 a month. You get graphics and video. Uh, and so you're getting a professional graphic designer and professional motion designers for $1,500 a month. Uh, and and what I can see, and you you might be seeing this too, that I a lot of the video and and uh creative people that are on staff at churches are leaving those church staffs, and I'm I'm grabbing them because it's almost more affordable or more um lucrative, is maybe not the right word, but um better a better better situation for them uh for the creative to get paid more, to not have to deal with the politics of the of the church. Yes, I said that out loud.
SPEAKER_00That that they they can uh all churches don't have politics.
SPEAKER_01I know. So I anyway, I'm gobbling them up, and then and then we're working for a whole lot of churches. So it really it's kind of a win-win on both scenario for the creative and for the church in a lot of ways.
SPEAKER_00Uh the reality is if you do spend the money and hire a 90 or $100,000 tech employee, they better be like somebody that loves your church. It's gonna stay in your city because if they're really good, they're gonna get snapped up by somebody that can print them a truckload of money.
SPEAKER_01That's you're exactly right. Yep.
SPEAKER_00I hate that it breaks down to money, but it usually does. There's some races not worth entering.
SPEAKER_01Exactly right. Yeah, if you're and and that's why I think I can't find uh I want to say that I don't think churches are being are able to find motion designers. So I always hire a motion designer on our team.
SPEAKER_00That's a motion designer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, motion is like animation, okay? It's like a one step down from animation. This is this is movement. This isn't just I can edit video. This is lower third animation, this is motion work, animation type work. Um, and so I always hire those folks because those folks know how to video uh edit video. A video editor doesn't necessarily know how to do motion graphics.
SPEAKER_00So tell me what you're seeing in trans. I think um, you know, I was prepping for our podcast meeting a couple months ago, and I I may have mentioned this to you, but the Gen Z members of our team were saying, Well, we were talking about how we do a better job of the podcast, and people were like, Well, I watch my podcasts on, and the other one, no, I watch my podcasts on, and I'm just I didn't even hear where they consume the podcast. I just heard the word watch. And I'm old enough that podcast was listening. So am I wrong in saying visuals sort of taking over the way we're consuming media?
SPEAKER_01Visuals are absolutely how everyone consumes media. The answer is video, video, video all day long. A podcast is not more about that.
SPEAKER_00Give me a give me a reasonable.
SPEAKER_01A podcast does not necessarily mean uh audio only. In fact, I get a lot of questions from pastors that are like, well, we're not gonna really use the video, we're just gonna use the audio. Like, well, why not? I mean, like, you're you're already in the studio. You are, I mean, you can jump on a Zoom, or we're on Riverside, which is super easy, super affordable. Um, you can shoot it on your iPhone. Well, why would you not go ahead and capture the video, put it on YouTube, or put it in other places, and the audio, you can rip off the audio and put that on Spotify, and then use the video in other places, social media platforms, uh, YouTube, every I mean, do that. Uh so the the stat on that, the stat on visual consumption is 80, 80 percent. So meaning if a pastor speaks on Sunday, three days later, your congregation is going to remember 10% of what you say to them. They remember 80% of what you show to them. So my encouragement to pastors is show along with speaking or show more than you speak. Like use those illustrations, use a visual, use a video, uh, both on Sunday and on social media. Um, the way we consume is is absolutely video all day long.
SPEAKER_00Well, and if you don't, uh if you're like, I'm not buying that, I'll go talk to a teenager. You won't. You can video message them, you can FaceTime them, but they don't even I don't know that my college students know how to make a phone call.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That that yeah, that's fair. Uh the the stats on Gen Z watching, I think it's like four or five, I'll have to look at the stats, but it's like four or five hours of video like a day. Like they're only watching YouTube.
SPEAKER_00That is my kids are 12 and 14. And it's almost no television.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, yeah, absolutely not. Uh if it is, it's a streaming service. Um, so but yeah, my kids are are YouTube only.
SPEAKER_00Well, let me ask you this. Um, there's probably people listening right now, and they're like, I don't even know what you're talking about, preaching with motion. I don't know what emotion graphics, I'm I'm lost, I don't even know where to start. Nobody's gonna listen to me. Everybody wants to see something. I don't even have any nice clothes, I don't know what to show them. Yeah. Give me give me like a handful of concrete steps somebody could take to up their video game. And and we'll say that hiring you is not one of those options. You gotta come up with different different options.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay. So when I uh teach a a breakout at c at conferences, it's so interesting to me that I I thought that I could start further along, but what I've found is uh you have to start even even down to do you have a screen in your space? So that's where we're that's where we're starting. Is do you have a screen in your space? So do you have a screen in your sanctuary? If not, roll in a TV. Or do you have a uh I go to a lot of kids' conferences, do you have a TV or screen in your space? No, we don't. Okay. Go to Walmart and buy a $200 TV and roll that in or set that up on a table in your room. Like that is step number one. Um, and then step number two is get a presentation software or a there's uh there's a um uh uh an app called Playlister that is an e a real easy app that you can use to to uh upload stuff if you don't want to spend the money on a presentation software, or if you're if you're in like a mobile space, uh playlister is a good uh solution for you. But then when you're ready to take the next step, it's it's ProPresenter. So we work with Easy Worship, we work with Media Shout, we work with Pro Presenter. Uh all great ProPresenter is kind of the the leading standard. So those are your first two steps. Install a screen and look into a presentation software. The next thing I would tell you to do is start with ready-made media. Okay, so this is you don't have to come to us, there's multiple people on the market, but but find a marketplace or find a site that has a library of pre-done stuff done by professionals that all you have to do is bring that down and put that into your presentation software. You don't have to be a designer. Yeah, I mean it you can download a package that is the book of James, and it has your videos, your graphics, download, import them into ProPresenter, lay out your slides, you're done. So I would say those are those are like the first three or four steps. And I can I can go further, but those would be the kind of the first concrete kind of steps that I would.
SPEAKER_00And and inform me, I'm ignorant around this. Um I long I preached so long ago we bought movie clip licenses because you had to have a license to show up, you know. What is the law on can I just rip it from YouTube and show it if I can figure that out, or is that is that a problem?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great question. The answer to that is no, you cannot.
SPEAKER_00Um I can't just rip a I just did it yesterday, so you know, cuffs. Uh, but uh, I showed a clip of President Obama giving some advice about getting stuff done. So you that's off limits, huh?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's it's off it's off limits. Now there was a a uh a ruling in the 70s or 80s that was for educational purposes. So there there is the honestly, this whole arena of can I do that is very hazy because the um there are stock sites that actually want you to use their stuff, so they're gonna be vague in their legal jargon for you to use it, but really you can't, and so it it it is a definitely a controversial thing in the space. Here's my usual rule of thumb. You go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean we still pay Getty images for any photos we don't take that go on our website, and we probably are we really gonna get prosecuted for that? I don't think anybody has time to chase down all the ripped videos, and but but do you sleep a little better? Do you sleep a little better?
SPEAKER_01You do, but you'd be surprised. I've been at two churches where they were slapped with uh a thousands of dollars of of lawsuit. Uh the the the church that that you mentioned earlier, I was at in Mississippi, uh Pine Lake. I was there and I got kind of called in, right? And and uh at one point I would been there probably a year, and they said, Hey, we got this cease and assist from uh from somebody, it's a twenty thousand dollar thing. Can you tell me where this came from? And it it had come from the the guy that was previously there before me. So when I came in, I kind of put some license, you know, the the things in place to make sure that we were legal. But this was years ago. And they just somebody scraping the internet and found it, and they had to pay a lot. So they find you. It it could be years from now, but they but they could find you. It's the Wild West right now. I got a I I'll tell you this, I got a cease and desist the other day from someone, and we try so hard to be legal, but I still got one on a graphic that had been on our site for years, and it wasn't anything with the graph, it was just we used a phrase that they happen to have trademarked uh that was like you wouldn't know that it's nobody would know that it's trademarked, but it is, and they they found us and oh our bad, we'll we'll take it down. So uh and work with you on that. So they do they do find you. So but my rule, my kind of rule of thumb for YouTube and and anything like that is to make sure that you're safe, either create an account with someone, like when I was at Newspring, we gave away all of our kids' content, uh, but we asked you to for your name and your email. So you had a login that you logged in and then you downloaded stuff. That gave us record of who's who's downloading, is this worth it? All all of that metadata. And so there was an account there. Or or pay for it. So if if you have an account or if you're paying having an actual transaction, you download this graphic for five bucks, there's a transaction, those two things, and you're you're you're really safe. Like I I would just call that a good rule of thumb that if you go outside of those bounds, you're getting into some weird territory that you know calls things to be in question.
SPEAKER_00It's i i it it in my sense I'm not an intellectual property attorney. Uh ironically, my brother is and named his firm Vanderblumen. Isn't that funny? Uh but uh it we're in kind of a wild west right now. I mean, arguably. In the presidential election, both candidates' campaign ads, forget what they spent on TV. It was people on TikTok, and they were all ripping songs and ripping like, but but just because we're in the Wild West now doesn't mean it's not going to get sorted. And beyond that, we just found the licensing made me sleep better at night. We're doing it right. We're putting a good witness out there. It's not what you can get away with. It's how do we do this the right way? And I don't want to belabor the point, but I bet you there's somebody sitting out there saying, I can't roll a screen into my sanctuary Carl. If I do that, the key won't work in my office door on Monday. Well, that's a different you you you figure out how to navigate that. Well, I don't want to have to pay for some fancy media. Well, then don't use it because you're going to have to pay a license. And I'm I'm just here to tell you, screens are where it's at. Uh in-person worship is better than being on a screen, but if it doesn't have visual, I just don't know that it works going forward.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Yeah. I I've been uh talking with people at conferences and I've kind of been amazed at the the the response I get from that. And it and it's more like uh well, we're we're doing fine. You know, if I ask them like, hey, do you do you have a desire to reach young families coming into your church? Well, no, no, no, we're good. I'm sorry. What? You're good? Like, like I I have to take it aback because my my argument is the stats are showing in a overwhelming fashion that media, specifically video, is what is a motivator, uh, is how we consume content. That that is being in the in the culture, but not of it. We we you're we're using the tools that we have available to us to to reach people. So if you don't have a screen in your space, I'm not saying that there aren't younger generations out there that wouldn't still worship in your space, obviously so, but I would say there's a more of a majority that you probably want to, if you're after young families and want your church to grow, this is an area that I would consider leaning into.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you didn't mention it, but I'll I'll uh offer my two cents. I if you don't have video in your newsletter, it's not gonna get read. Like we're we're in the process of converting, we're probably behind, where most really great newsletters that come out from companies have the text and a video. You can watch or read, whichever one you want. And I don't think churches have caught on to that. And it's a great pastoral moment for pastor to sit in front of his right, like we're doing right now, just in front of his desk. Let me tell you five important things that are going on in the church. It's all down below in a text, but I wanted to tell you personally that's money and people pay attention. So I I don't know. I may be way off base, but I I kind of there's an old saying, the church is really good at raising the flag at sunset. You know, sunrise is when you raise the flag, sunset's when it comes down. We're always about a day behind on everything. And I felt like having you on would be a good wake-up call and some tangible first steps for people to say, how do we get more engagement from our people? And I think it I think it's through video. Let me let me ask you this to wrap things up. What uh would be a couple of the most common mistakes people are making as they're trying to ingrain video into their um church?
SPEAKER_01I think the most common mistake I see in ministry leaders is they're trying to do it all just to just to save money or or and they're not doing the spending time on the thing that God has called them to do. If God has called you to pastor in this way and spend time with your people, why are you trying to learn Canva and Photoshop and why are you spending your time doing that? And this could be not just senior level, this is all the way down, right, to the to the kids director and and everywhere in between. I'm not saying that you can't make some quick graphics, that's not what I'm saying. I I what I am saying is uh you I'm seeing a lot of ministry leaders spend a whole lot of time trying to learn the things that they're not called to do. Uh and there are other people in the space that are called to do that, and it's more affordable than ever. And if they leaned into uh it doesn't have to be me, that's not what I'm saying. It could be a a uh a full timer, it could be that, or a part-timer, or an outsource, could be either one of those. But I think that's the miss biggest mistake I'm seeing is them spending time not pastoring their people, which is what God has called them to do.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, having sat in the chair in lots of different sizes of churches, I can tell you if you outsource it can feel like you've failed. I should be happens to us with searches all the time. I know this church, I should be able to hire people just fine. Well, when did you take a course on hiring?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Like how many times have you actually run a search? Like we're running hundreds every day, and it doesn't mean we're smart, it just means we have a whole lot of repetitions. But but people are like, I feel like I'm letting my people down if I can't make the hire. I feel like I'm letting them down enough if I can't do Canva. I feel like I'm it's a very uh, I don't know, chicken and egg, but it it it's cyclical. And uh yeah, great word. Great word. Do what you were called and trained to do and let other people do the rest.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, Carl, uh how can people get in touch with you? What's it tell us something? Hopefully, you got a YouTube channel. If you don't, then we need to talk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if I have no, I I uh very much have a YouTube channel. So uh churchvisu.com is our website. Everything's there. Uh yeah, you can check us out there. It's at your church visuals on YouTube. Uh yeah, we love to have you join us there. All of that content is free on YouTube, lots of free training there, uh, which is this this kind of stuff. It's kind of getting into the weeds of it. And we we like to say that um, you know, your graphics, your video is not the Holy Spirit. That's not what saves people. Uh it it's you know, it's the Holy Spirit that that does the that does the saving. But but your visuals matter because the gospel matters. We should be sharing the gospel in a very compelling way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, so true. So true. Well, Carl, thanks so much for joining us today. Um, if you're just listening to this, it's on the YouTube channel. We're converting over to video ourselves, and we're trying to learn as we go. I I want to thank everybody who's listening, who's serving a local church. I know there's somebody sitting out there saying they're gonna be Jesus is going to return before there's a screen in our sanctuary. I get that. There's lots of different ways you can bake visual into the other parts of your ministry. And I'm just thank you for doing what you're doing on the front lines of moving this Jesus movement forward. So, Carl, thanks for what you're doing. Thanks for joining us, man. Appreciate you. Thank you. Hey, tune in again soon. And uh, if you go to Vandercast.com, you can put your email address in there and get show notes and uh uh you know what's coming up next. And we we will not use your email address to sell you Ginsu knives and you know, as seen on TV products. Promise. Thanks for joining us. We'll talk to you again soon.