Well, hey everybody, welcome to the Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast. It's great to see you again after my summer break. You've been wondering, well, where's William? Where's William? You know, William wants this mission that God's let us do. I want it to last. And I'm not gonna last. So sooner or later, somebody's gonna have to take over after me. And as you know, succession's a big thing. So every summer for the last 10 summers, I've taken a little bit more time away and let the company run itself just to make it so it's not dependent on me. Now, I don't know if that applies to you and your world, but it did mean we haven't talked in a while. And I'm back. Uh we're in the fall, just dropped off our brand new high schooler for her first day, and couldn't be more excited to be back with you, especially because I get to introduce you to my friend Troy Grambling. Uh, Troy is an amazing pastor in South Florida. I don't know, Troy, what we meet 150 years ago, something like that.
SPEAKER_00It's been a while, for sure.
SPEAKER_01It's been a while, yeah. And uh, you know, I I've known you a long time, Troy. We've had the honor of serving you guys over the years, and uh it's just been great to see what's happened and how it's evolved over the years and to see new generations of leadership entering. So thanks for making time for us today. I wonder, um, I guess I'm learning it's a it's a really big kingdom and a really small world. And sometimes I assume that everybody knows everybody and and they don't. So could you tell us a little bit of your story and how you ended up, uh where you are, and just sort of sort of give us a uh a quick 101 on the Gramlings?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, we've been in South Florida for 20 uh 24 years this October. And so this is where our kids have grown up. But my wife and I came from Arkansas, which is a lot different than uh South Florida is. Uh took us a little while to adapt, but uh, but we had started a church there. We planted a church there. I've been at three churches. So I was a little country church, Mount Zion Baptist Church is a hundred years old. And then I uh uh Steph and I started a church and uh we were there for about eight years and went through that whole process, but it was a smaller town and really wanted to, I just wanted to be where stuff was happening, you know, where I even if it meant traffic, I just wanted to be where things were going on. And we moved to, we worked with our denomination to move to Little Rock. And uh stylistically, I think what I felt called to do was different when they had in mind, and uh uh they decided that they weren't gonna do it, which was a big surprise to me and um and uh really incredibly difficult time. And you know, one of those things where I could have gone back uh to to Paraguld is where we came from there in Arkansas, but I that just didn't seem like the right thing, right? I believe with all my heart God had brought us there. And I had known Pastor Dan, who was pastoring here at the time was Flamingo Road. And I asked him if he knew about anybody in Little Rock that might want to partner with us. And he said, no, but we're looking for a young adult pastor. And um, my wife wasn't exactly sure, Steph wasn't exactly sure, but we came down and uh started, and we started in the young adults. The problem was it felt a lot more like a church start. They didn't have a ton of young adults. They had grown the church and had success, and Dan had written books, but you know, we all get older, and then you have to work for the church not to be as old as the the pastoral team is, and so uh, but we so really what I did is I was in the parking lot the majority of the time. Uh we didn't have a real parking lot here. Uh they were building a new building and everything. So, and then Pastor Dan had written a book. He was pastoring, uh partnering with Rick and traveling around with Rick Warren and all of that. And then um one day he decided that's what he was gonna do. So he moved to Charlotte and handed me the baton. So, you know, I went from parking the people's cars to uh actually getting the opportunity to to lead the church, and we've done that now. You know, we've been here for 24. I've probably been the lead pastor for 22, which is hard to believe, you know. Um, but it's been um we've had an incredible, incredible time, and it's been cool to see God do amazing things and then see our kids now who all serve on the team in different ways.
SPEAKER_01That's great. And and when you when Dan's like, hey, I'm out, uh how much notice did you have that the was it a surprise or was it something that'd been in the back for a while? And then it, you know, like how'd that go?
SPEAKER_00Well, Dan says it was always his plan. I'm not sure it was, but uh and if you know Dan, Dan when he met with me, he's like, I can't remember. It was gonna be like a 18-month, two-year process. You know, we're gonna go through this. And then I taught. Um, we were just a few months away from Easter, so I taught that Easter. And I think, I think it took maybe a total of six months, and he was gone. So it went from two years to six months. And uh, but he, you know, he he uh did a great job, you know, he truly did handle uh hand the baton. He was a great encouragement. He, you know, had built up the team and shared with the team. And at the time we had what were deacon pastors, and he, you know, so he he he left me in a really good uh opportunity, you know. I I uh feel very, very blessed that he one gave me the opportunity and entrusted me with it, and then you know, put his name on the line. You know, if I fail, that's a reflection of him, you know, especially as quick as the whole thing went. You know, he thought the church was ready and he was ready to pursue what God was calling him to do. And and um, so that's uh kind of how that happened.
SPEAKER_01That's great. And that was 22 years ago, is that what you said? Yeah. So the church was called Flamingo Road Church. Uh he changed the name to Potential, which I want to talk about. You've got a new book out called Potential. It's probably selling better than if it were called Flamingo Road. Uh but uh how do you take an existing congregation, right? That Dan Sutherland, who casts a long shadow, I mean, he's a you know well-known leader. Uh, how do you walk in after that and go to however long it took you, to a we're rebranding this, we're renaming this, we've got a whole new direction. Like, I think so many of our listeners are in a church where they know that change needs to happen. And I don't know that they know how to get to the end zone they can see. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. The the you know, again, Dan played a big role in that, and not only because of the way he set me up, but also um the way he had led the team, because the team was that was left here was incredibly supportive of us in those first years for uh for sure. And then I think all along the way, because the reason the main reason we did all of this is because we went multi-site. And as a result, you know, we got a we have a campus in Peru. Well, they're they don't know what a flamingo, I mean, they don't have flamingos uh there in Lima, where our campus is. So we thought instead of a pink bird, you know, we'll we'll do something different. And um and so all along the way, as we began to cast the vision of starting campuses and launching campuses, we were also, you know, talking about what that meant and you know what we were gonna do, what we were gonna do. And um and and so by the and then the other thing that I probably played the biggest role is we were having success. I mean, the church was growing and you know that creates so much momentum and so much energy. And I think if you've got momentum and and you communicate, you know, you keep people abreast of what's going on, um, then uh, you know, it makes things a lot easier as opposed to without momentum, or if you're not clear, if people don't know why you're doing what you're doing. So we we weren't in a hurry in in the in the sense of we knew the name was gonna have to change, but we weren't necessarily in a hurry to do that. Um but uh so we're I think preparing the people all along the way that, hey, you know, in order for us to pursue what God's calling us to do, that you've all agreed on, you know, these are some of the changes that we're gonna have to make along the way, whether that be video or name change.
SPEAKER_01That is such visionary leadership, Troy. And I I'll tell you why. Having watched thousands and thousands of pastors and their careers over the years, I see uh people people don't think ahead. Like when I wrote our book that was a case study on all the top performers we've ever done, be the unicorn. One of the one of the qualities that we notice is the best leaders think three shots ahead. Like they're the if you play pool with a really good pool player, they are not hitting the ball that they're hitting. They're hitting the ball that's five shots away, right? And what I love that you said is uh momentum helps you make the change. And I see I see leaders get desperate and they think change is the answer, right? And in my experience, if you're desperate and you make changes, sometimes it needs to happen. You break an S curve or whatever. Most of the time people can read that. Like he's scared, he's trying anything, he's grasping at straws, she doesn't know what she's doing, whatever that however they want to say it, right? But but momentum, when things are going well, that's when you that's when you make changes. It's like an old lesson. I I try and play golf. And one thing my coach used to say is you practice when you're hitting it well, and you play when you're hitting it bad. So when you got momentum, deep driving and ingrain it, right? So tell me a little bit about how you knew there was momentum and how you how you made that um uh a pivot point that allowed you to initiate changes. Because I mean, if we had the old diet commercials of before and after, people wouldn't believe the amount of change you've gotten done successfully at potential church.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I I think again, it looking at the different dynamics that we would um trying to decide which direction things were going. So to me, with the staff team, where's the culture of the staff? Um, where's the attitude of the staff? How much change are they ready to not only embrace, but be able to share, you know, because people are going to come to them before they come per se to me. Um, and then also just the, you know, of course, there's always the finances, but um the our people coming to Christ, how many people were we baptizing, how quickly was the church growing? Uh, you know, all those kind of things um were what we were looking at and how they had braced embraced smaller changes along the way. You know, like we had had to do some space kind of changes as we began to grow and you know, connect groups or small groups, Sunday school, whatever you want to call it, you know, you're always changing the way that. And so we had to make some changes that were pretty foundational because of this building that that we were coming into. And one of the things I tried to do, I didn't, I didn't have anything to do with the building other than put in theater seats. Okay. So I leveraged that as I was casting vision, you know, and the and the leadership, and I wouldn't say the congregation, because it's not something I necessarily said from the platform, but the leadership understood that. Hey, I've been given this building. And so there's some changes we're gonna have to make because this building has certain limitations when it comes to parking. And, you know, they used to do small group uh off times, but on campus. And we just, you know, so we were able to make some of those changes, just trying to leverage, I guess, the circumstances that we found ourselves in at the time. And then judging that they how they responded to those changes and its impact on momentum as far as the seeing people come, seeing people come to Christ, seeing people uh step in and put on their God jersey was how we, okay, we're ready for, you know, I think we'll we can make this a larger change as far as what the name is and and those kind of things. And you know, a lot of it's got to do too, I mean, I was very blessed, you know, Pastor Dan was an incredible leader. So, you know, I had the opportunity that he had, you know, led the congregation. So they were used to some change, you know, along along the way. And and and you know, he was here for 10 years, which is, you know, I guess in today's you would know better than me how long if that's long or short, but um, but he had done a good job of helping them uh see uh value change, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh well, I just I think it's a fascinating topic. It's probably a whole nother podcast. Uh but I just I remember I was a kid, my first senior pastor job, I was in Montgomery, Alabama, which is not the most uh uh they like steady and predictable, rapid change in Montgomery or not. Probably like Arkansas. It's the predictable is a core value, right? So that's fine. But I made all these changes and you know, we grew real fast. We weren't a big church like you guys, but we you know, we had 120 or 30 people, and then it went up to seven or eight hundred, which was you know unheard of in the present world. And I forget what I'd done to tick people off, but I was picking buckshot out of my butt, and you know, uh, and then they were gonna have a we're gonna have our annual congregational meeting, which you know, and and the you know, the people that were against all this change were getting ready to go make a big run and have a big problem. So we finished church, and I just said, and I didn't I just fell into this. I didn't think about it, but I just said, you know what? I knew the meeting was gonna be kind of bumpy, right? I said, if you're visiting us today, we're getting ready to have a long meeting, and you don't want to, I mean, you'll be behind the Baptists in line at lunch if you wait on this to be over. So don't do that. Let's if you're visiting, go have a great lunch. We'll see you, we'll do our family business well. Two-thirds of the room left. And I watched those people that were mad go, they didn't say it, but it was like, oh crap, we don't want to mess that up. And it all went away. Now, I'm really good at ticking people off, so it wasn't long before I made somebody else mad, but but in that moment, I was like, oh my gosh, if you create growth and momentum, you get a big permission slip to try and new things, but not the other way around, not when it's desperate and the finances are down, and that's harder. So just follow Pastor Troy, go watch the history of the church. I'm sure it's on their site somewhere, and you'll see. Pick your moments where you've got some momentum. And if you don't, create small wins, create momentum in small things. It's one of the secrets of what was Flamingo Road and is now potential church. So thanks for sharing that, Troy. Appreciate it. Um came out this summer, and I'm super excited about it. It's named Potential, which matches the church. So maybe start with uh, why'd you name the church potential and uh tell us why in the world you wrote a book? Because I've I've written five now, and it it's not fun, and you don't make any money. Uh this is it's something inside you that has to get out. So what talk to us about the name of the church and then what prompted you to write a book?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, as we were, we knew we didn't want to be flamingo. And so as we kind of begin to pray, and I've always felt that God has me here for this season because of who he created me to be. You know, so I always feel like uh the more a leader understands who God's made him to be, the more effective they're gonna be at what he's called them to do. And if you were to go back um back to the daytime days, you know, when you had the little daytime to keep up with your calendar. Franklin Kobe, baby. Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, they just slowly went out of business. But, anyways, I uh on the front of it, you know, you'd write like your mission statement or your vision, you know, whatever the and if you were to go back to one of mine back in the day, it would say something to very similar to what ours is as far as wanting um not only to reach my potential, but to help other people do the same thing. And so as I went back and began to think about that and shared it with the team, and then we went, and of course, we were able to get all the handles, which was an incredible blessing, because we did this in 2010. So it wasn't quite like today, but the internet was still kind of you know going at the time and uh Twitter and all that stuff, or X, I guess. But so that's the reason we chose the name. And we were able to get the handles, and it aligned with um my heart and and the team's heart at the time. And same reason as far as the book goes. You know, I I've been slow on the book, like you said. I I I didn't know how difficult it was. Now I can attest to the fact that it's quite challenging, you know, from the agent to the publisher to the writing to the editing to all that stuff that was brand new for me, but but also just not having a lot of confidence. It's one thing to speak the word, you know, it's another thing to put it down on paper. And to and I remember when God kind of nudged my heart and I was like, well, you know, I'm gonna wait for it to fall out of the sky, basically. You know, if God wants me to do this, he's gonna, you know, make it happen. And and you know, there's that part that God wants us to do. And I I I could see that when it came to leading the church or being a husband or a father, but for some reason when it came to writing a book, I was just like, uh, I can't, I'm not gonna. And eventually I just said, you know what, it's time to start. And I did. And then COVID hit, and that gave me a good reason to stop. And uh, but eventually we we got it, we got it done.
SPEAKER_01That's great. What tell me what uh you were hoping to accomplish and what readers will gain from picking up the book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the book is basically my favorite story in all scripture. It's the story of the people of God who are enslaved and they make it to the promised land. Because I think that's the same journey that we're all on, you know. We got to start where we are to get to where God's created us to go. And so uh that's basically what the book is about. And I think the most important part of the book is the first part. Because I think for a lot of us, the the most challenging aspect is just to believe that. You know, to believe that we were created on purpose by God to do something of significance. We didn't fall out of a tree, we didn't wash up on the shore. God didn't, you know, he's not like, what am I going to do with this one? I mean, he really does want to do something that matters. And it's not just a few special people or just uh a certain class of people. It really is every, you know, I heard Erwin McMarn say one time that just sharing that idea that before we were visible, we were invisible in the heart and mind of God. In other words, nobody's heart is beating wasn't intentional by an all-powerful, all-knowing God. And so, you know, the book to me, the most important part of the book is the beginning when we talk about reflecting and discovering who you are and learning your voice and and uh having confidence in who God's created you to be. And then we go on to talk about how do you get from there now to what the dream that God's put inside of your heart and um and encouraging people to dream, you know. Sometimes our dreams are like you said a few moments ago when we started the the podcast, you talked about somebody's gonna be here in this chair in the future that's not you. And I think sometimes our dreams are just they're they're not big enough and they're not multi-generational, you know, they're just big enough for me. And if you start thinking, if you start dreaming big enough for multiple generations, that impacts the kind of decisions you make. Like you said, you're taking a little bit of time off, a little bit more each summer. Well, that's intentional based on the fact that your dream's bigger than you. And uh I just think that's really, really important. Moses did it. I don't know all that happened, but it doesn't seem that Joshua did, because then you go into judges, you know, and all the trouble that was there. But that's basically um the whole narrative of the book.
SPEAKER_01I I tend to think most people dream too big about what they're gonna get done in a day and dream way too small about what they can get done in the long run. And uh that's so good. Just plan it for the future. Let me ask you a question. Um, a little bit tangent. I I latched on to something you said early in the podcast that you've you've got to work hard to keep the church younger than the pastoral staff, the head pastor, whatever. Tell me some some life hacks you've learned as because you're I think you're probably 22 years older than you were 22 years ago. And uh I know I am. So so like you're having to work this right now. I mean, this is real time. What are you learning that can help listeners and viewers today understand how to tap into the potential of the next generation?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think we all know this, but it's important to remember, especially as you start to get a little bit older, is change is not easy. And eventually the very ones who are leading the change are going to be the ones who struggle to change. You know, no matter how creative a church is, no matter how you get into ruts, you get into ways that you do things. And the older, and and I'm I'm not saying necessarily just in age, but the longer you've been somewhere, the more difficult it is to make changes. So it's just important to know that because if you don't, you're always gonna second guess yourself along the way. Because the changes that you're made, you know, you you you have to be intentional about is the um the age and the style of what you're doing. Because, you know, when you think about how do you the congregation is gonna reflect a lot of what they see and what they experience from greeters to parkers to ushers to who's on the stage, of course, and who's in video and and the rest of the team. You know, I can't change the age or the ethnic background that I am, but so it's important, you know, if you're really young, you you want some some wisdom around you, you know, to be able to lead the older folks. And when you're you know, when you're in your 50s, then you want some folks in their 20s and 30s who um You know, can help bring balance to that. But you have to remember both of those ages carry pros and cons with it. You know, you know, when you're in your 50s, you forgot what a 20-year-old is dealing with. And it's really easy to expect a 20-year-old to act like a 50-year-old, and they're not going to. And a lot of times that's why we get older, I think, is because our expectations of young people have changed as we've aged. And so we really want them there with our mouths, but we don't create environments where they can truly be, you know, in their 20s and make those kind of, you know, I was thinking when you're talking about, you know, the issues you had at that first church. And I was thinking, I, you know, I'm, I remember uh we had a church give us, combine with us at the time the church we had started. We had, I don't know, 80, 100. They had 10 or 15 people. And they couldn't pay for their building. It was a little building, but they gave it to us. But on the speakers at the back, they had crosses. Well, my first week there, I tore down the crosses and got rid of the pews, okay? I realized that was not very intelligent to do. But I learned I learned that with 80 people. You know, my kids and those who come here in their 20s, they're learning it with thousands of people, thousands of opinions, you know. And I think you gotta, so you gotta have grace. You know, I think uh, you know, one of the things I I noticed, like when Pastor Joel took over for his father, not a lot of folks gave him the grace, you know, that hey, he's just started this and he's on CNN and he's having, you know. So I think one of the things we can do to, or at least from my experiences to help, is it you gotta take a deep breath and realize, you know, you acted like that. You made I may I tore down those crosses. I did that. You know what I mean? Right now, if I were a 21-year-old did that here, you know, I'd be like, why? You know, but I did it. And they gave me grace and God used me. And so I I think that that's really important.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I, you know, when we uh when our team goes and does a search for a pastor of a church, probably similar to the one you were in Arkansas. Uh, we'll ask them, you know, when they say, Well, how old and what kind of person are you looking for, and all this? And uh they'll they everybody says we want a young pastor. Everybody says that, right? I said, okay, well, let me just ask something. You know you have a uh retriever, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Everybody's got a golden retriever, Labrador, whatever. Um, isn't it cool how you know when they're older, they're just sweet and mellow, and you know, you can just count on them a hundred percent. Yeah, well, would you rather have that or a puppy? Everybody says a puppy, and I said, Yeah, so puppies pee on carpets, and the room goes silent, and everybody's like, Oh yeah, they are kind of a pain in the butt, aren't they? Well, I think it's the same idea. You're not what's the old line? Why is it that wisdom is wasted on the old and youth on the young? Oh so it's it you've done such a good job of what from my perspective of giving away authority to younger people rather than just tasks. And I think that you gotta calculate what authority am I gonna give them. They can't go blowing up the church, but like I I just I think you've done a marvelous job there and uh love hearing your wisdom on how to to let them run a little bit. And I think everybody listening, you just need to know they are gonna be on the carpet, like it happens.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01If there's one lesson, you know, all the books I've written, as soon as they've come out, I wish I'd have done one more chapter, but it's too late. Uh, is there anything in the book that you're like, now that one I got right? There's one lesson that I want to share with the audience today that would give them kind of a teaser and make them say, now that's that's worth checking out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I spend a lot of time on the part of the story, you know, where Moses takes them the roundabout way. And I, you know, I think when I get in my car, I put in the GPS and I don't put the roundabout way. You know, I want to get there as quick and as fast and as easy as possible. And the fact that really over and over again, I mean, it took 350 years before he set them out, you know, brought them out of their slavery. And then they get free. And what's God do? He doesn't take, I mean, they've been waiting three, you know, they've been there over 400 years. They've been probably enslaved, what, 350 years? And then God doesn't take them the fastest route. And I I think, you know, to me that's so important because I I can see the roundabout way as punishment. I can see it as the wrong way. You know, I can be like some of them and say, let me turn back and miss the biggest, you know, part of the journey, the biggest part in the front. So I spent a lot of time, you know, really talking about that and and how to handle that.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Well, I'd I'd love for you to share this. What how can listeners uh find you? What's the website? What's the best way to get to the book and get their hands on potential?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, everything is in my handles, my name, Troy Gramling. And of course, they can get the book at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, what you know, wherever they get books, Walmart. But and then there's the church is potential church. So those are the handles, and whatever you want to find, we'd love to see you.
SPEAKER_01Well, I appreciate you and your whole family, man. It's uh it's great to have known you as long as I have, and I hope that I've been able to introduce you to some people that didn't know you, so they'll go check you out and and check out the book and tap into their potential because you do help people dream bigger, and that's a sorely needed thing. So thanks for making time for us today, Troy. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Uh, thank you, William. It's been an honor to be here. It truly has.
SPEAKER_01Take care, and thanks everybody for tuning in. Glad to be back for the fall. We got a lot of new episodes coming out, and I hope you'll tune in again soon to meet another one of my friends.