Welcome to the Band of Women Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Benefit, Manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Banner Women. And today's podcast is the Underwomen office Phil Bart. Dr. Toby is the founder and lead pastor of the Church of 11th or also a national and international preacher and student. In this conversation, Toby talks about his latest book, Anything Is Possible, and what happens when the unexplainable intersects the undeniable. He encourages listeners that God still does miracles today and that believers have access to the incredible power that raised Jesus from the dead, and ultimately reminds us not to seek miracles themselves, but the one who performs them. We hope you enjoy this conversation.
SPEAKER_01If you don't know Joby and if you are not watching this, then Joby's a hunter. He's the only podcast guest with a bear skin on his wall, which is pretty impressive. Where did the bear come from, Joby? Uh Arizona. There are bears in Arizona? Big ones. If you get up in the mountain part of it, yes. We saw one in New Mexico one time when we were driving up to Utah, like along the side of the highway running. I'm like, what is that? It was some kind of they call it a red bear or something other, but but it was the craziest thing I've ever seen. Adrian said, Look, there's a bear. I'm like, in the middle of New Mexico, crazy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's uh a hunt on the uh Apache Reservation with some Apache Indians. It's pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_01How about that? That's pretty awesome. Well, in your spare time, uh Joby's a pastor at uh church at 1122. And uh Joby, give it a lot of people know you, but a lot of people may not. Tell tell us just the origin story of the church, kind of how it got going. And uh I know you've told that to us before, but love to share that with those who are new.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's your thing. Uh I'm a total accidental church planner. I was doing student ministry at Beach United Methodist Church in Jacksonville Beach, and um they let me put together a service. And so the reason our church is called 1122 is because that's what time the service started, and I'm the least creative person ever. And I figured if you could just invite somebody to the time, they would know when to get there. And um man, in a in about a year of that service running, it went to about five services and outgrew the church we were at. And so, Pastor Jerry Sweat, who was my pastor, who is my pastor, one of the best Christians I've ever met in my life, said, I think you ought to plant a church. I didn't even know what that was. So I Googled church planting and went to an expo conference and got connected with leadership networks, how I met you. And then in September 2012, we renovated an old Walmart and we planted the church of 1122. And uh, since then, God's breathed on it and it's going really well. Now we're in um let me add it up 11 campuses right now. Three are in prisons. Uh we've got three three more campuses are under construction. Really exciting times right now. We've got a big beach baptism. We're about two miles from the Atlantic Ocean here in Jacksonville, and we've got a big beach baptism coming up this weekend. And currently we have 1,055 people signed up to go public with their faith and proclaim Jesus Christ as a Lord and Savior. So come on, come on. We're pretty pumped. Somewhere around 1,055, right? That's right. Yeah, we still got two services to go, so that month that number could go up.
SPEAKER_01And you're doing all that, and at the same time you're filming that Vikings show. Yeah, yeah. I also I'm a stunt double for Ragnar. That's what I do. If you hadn't seen Vikings, just Google image it and lay them next to each other. You'll see, you'll see the man can be two places at once. That is right.
SPEAKER_03Well, let's try to travel internationally, man. I mean, everybody in like East Africa is like, you are Ragnar. I'm like, okay, is that right? Can I tell you about Jesus?
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Wow. Well, last time we visited, we talked about if the tomb is empty. And it's like, then that changes everything. I mean, that's the the short. It was a book you had come out, and I think people, you know, it did like way better than you thought it might. I mean, God kind of breathed on it like he has with your church. And so there's a sequel out that I really wanted to visit with you about. And uh it it anything's possible. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, and that's kind of the second half of the sentence, right?
SPEAKER_03In her mind, and in my mind, that's how it worked, man. If the tomb is empty, anything is possible. And and a part of where that came from, William, is you know, 30 years of ministry, particularly the last 11, being the lead pastor of 1122, is folks would come to me in a seemingly impossible situation, whether it's a physical thing, a health thing, a marital thing, and they would say things like, Well, Pastor, you don't understand. I, you know, my marriage is dead, and I'm in an impossible situation. And I was like, Well, hold on, man. If if God can breathe new life into his dead son, surely he can breathe new life into your marriage. And then just one day, a bunch of years ago, I started saying, Because if the tomb is empty, anything is possible. And you believe in the empty tomb, right? And they're like, Yeah, of course. I put my faith in Christ. I'm like, all right, we'll take that same faith and then believe him for the good things and what he can do in your life.
SPEAKER_01Well, I the reason I love this is I've I've been fascinated with uh, you know, with seven children, I've covered a lot of different generations, and my oldest is almost 30. And you know, we've talked about this before. And like none of his friends, believer or non-believer, has any problem believing in miracles. Right. It's amazing how the tide has shifted from like when we were young and cutting our teeth in ministry, you had to convince people a miracle was possible. Like Thomas Jefferson cut all the miracles out of his New Testament, right? Correct, enlightened children. Uh, but but there's a there's a hunger and there's a belief that things can happen, right? That's not like I'm finding that's not uh unheard of for people that say, Well, I'm not religious, but I'm kind of spiritual and miracles can happen. Have you have you sensed that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I also think um, you know, the the promise of modernity didn't work, that if we were just educated enough, then we would be living in this utopia. Well, how's that working out? Exactly. It's not, and then also I think, man, there's some I mean, we are seeing some things that just a few years ago we would have thought would be impossible. I mean, uh, even things like um, I had an appendectomy about six years ago. Man, if I lived a hundred years ago, I'm dead because my appendix burst, and I'd have just you know turned funny colors in the in the woods of South Georgia and I went to be with the Lord. And so now, or things like you know, AI, and there's all kinds of changing things that we can't really get our head around. I think people have a category that if there is a God, then surely He can operate in our world in a way that may not be explainable, but it is for sure undeniable.
SPEAKER_01Well, so you know, familiar with the book, what I love about it, I mean, anybody can read it, anybody understand it, but I for the longest time I thought you know the miracle in the New Testament, the point of the miracle was so that somebody who was sick could be well, somebody who's blind could see, and like it was for the benefit of the healed. It's really not, it's really not. So, yeah, I mean, walk me through that a little bit and how that plays out in the book.
SPEAKER_03Well, the Gospel of John, he never calls miracles miracles, he only calls them signs or sometimes signs and wonders, and a sign points to something greater than it is. So, over your shoulder is the skyline of Houston, right? Well, if I was driving into Houston and there was a big green road sign that said Houston, that's not Houston, it's pointing to that that people, that city that's behind you. And so every single time Jesus did a did a sign or a miracle, it wasn't just to like flex his raw power to be like, Look what I could do. It always pointed to his redemptive purpose, and so that's why the subtitle is how nine miracles of Jesus reveal God's love for you. And so we walked through nine different miracles pointing to the miracle maker.
SPEAKER_01Well, so I uh I'm a linear guy, I was raised with a good Dutch Protestant work ethic. You work hard, you get paid. Like that's maybe the best lesson my parents taught me. So we're recording this today. Uh, and earlier today, my preaching professor, Tim Keller, went to be with Jesus. And uh I think he prayed to be healed. I know he did. And it didn't take the cancer away. So what did he not pray right? Like, what do you I mean, what do you say when the miracle doesn't come?
SPEAKER_03Uh well, you know, Tim Keller's a great example. If you look at his testimony from diagnosis until last week, he was a man that prayed like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego outside of the fiery furnace. God, I know that you can heal me, and I am believing that you will. And even if you don't, I'm not bowing down to these idols, I'm only worshiping you. I mean, his last public tweet is, I'm ready to go see Jesus. So um, I think when Isaiah 55 says that that we were peered, he was pierced for our transgressions, and by his stripes we were healed. I think he's experiencing that kind of healing, and there is a difference between healing and cures, but the Bible also says that we have not because we ask not, so that we should go to a good God who loves to give good gifts to his kids and beg him for our loved ones or beg them for you know our own healing. But there is a whole chapter on here on what do you do when you don't get your miracle? There's a whole chapter on what do you do when you do get your miracle, like you know, Lazarus comes out of the grave, and then the very next chapter, John chapter 12, Mary breaks open the most valuable thing she has and pours it on the feet of Jesus in this expression of gratitude at Simon the leper's house. Well, the only way they could eat at Simon the Leper's house is because he must not be a leper anymore, that Jesus must have healed him too. So it's just a big gratitude party, which would which is what church really ought to be every time you get together, just a big old Simon the leper gratitude party, right? But then sometimes God does not seem to make sense from our perspective, and so there's a whole chapter on what do you do when it just doesn't seem to make sense because I'm gonna tell you, man, not that God's asking my opinion or does he need to because his ways are not my ways, and he's higher than me for sure. But of all the people on the planet to take out today, C.S. Lewis would not, I mean, excuse me, Tim Keller. That's a pretty good slip right there. But Tim Keller would not be high on my list, right? Because he seems like I mean, what an incredible gift to the kingdom of God, and there was a lot of work that he was still doing. And so in John chapter six, everything seems to be going well. There's actually two miracles there. Jesus walks on water and he feeds the 5,000. The crowds are going to what, maybe like 20,000 people. And then Jesus says, Only reason you're following me is because you're you're not chasing me, you're chasing a full belly, and I will not be a means to your end. And then he begins, and they say, Well, if you are the prophet, give us a sign like manna from heaven, like like Moses did, which is a crazy thing. He just did two miracles, like within 24 hours. But you chase after the miracle, it will not sustain you. If you chase after the moment, it will not sustain you. And so then he gets into this teaching. Okay, I got your miracle, I got your bread, I am the bread. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part with me. Think about this. Can you imagine the note takers, the first century Jewish note takers eat my did he didn't? He didn't say flesh, he said fish, right? He had to say fish because I mean we can't eat pork, much less the prophet. What are you talking about? Flesh? And then I think the disciples are probably like, just give him a second, he's gonna explain it. Like, that's what he does. He makes it worse. He says, Unless you feed on my flesh, what because eat to me sounds like a bite, feed is like the walking dead, you know, just and you're like, holy goodness gracious! And then I mean, everybody listening knows the the account, and then people start leaving and he doesn't chase them down. I think if I was preaching this weekend and and a group of people misunderstood me and they just left, I think I'd be like, Well, whoa, whoa, let me explain. He doesn't explain anything, which bothers the American Christian psyche because we I mean, as Americans, how many times have you heard this? The American people deserve to know. Well, that ain't in the Bible, like God owes us zero explanations because he can do whatever he wants, and so he does explain it, and he could have explained it in one second. I mean, come on, as good post-resurrection Protestant believers, you and I can explain this in about three sentences. Hey man, he's talking about the gospel and he's gonna institute this thing called communion, and you don't have to like bite him on the bicep, it's gonna be this little wafer thing and a little, it ain't even gonna be wine in most places, it's gonna be a little light welches. Okay, don't worry about it. You're not gonna be a cannibal, it's gonna take a minute at the end of the service. Just what he's saying is if you don't know the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, then you got no part with me. He explains nothing, and then he looks at Peter, he looks at all the 12, but he says, Do y'all want to leave too? And the reason is because they're like, Yeah, I mean, we've made a horrible career. Look, you're into getting people in the right seat on the bus. I think they're thinking, especially Peter is like, I've made a terrible career decision. I think I need to go back fishing with my dad, man. I mean, this is we're getting canceled. What are we doing? And then Peter evaluates it. Okay, so what am I gonna do here? You're talking about something that doesn't make sense to me. If I were you, I don't think I would do this. And as he looks around the landscape, his answer is what gets me through it when God doesn't make sense to me. And his answer is simply this when Jesus says, Do you want to leave too? He goes, To whom shall we go? You're the only one that offers eternal life. And then he says, We have come to believe and know that you are the Son of God. Now, most of us want to know and then decide if we believe. Peter is saying, Nah, listen, I believe. And to walk away from you is to walk towards something else, and you're the only one that offers eternal life. And and you know, pastor in this church for 10 years, I've seen a bunch of people that don't get their questions answered and they walk away from the Lord, but they still never get the questions answered. They just get beat up and bruised and they come back with scars. And so, what do you do? The loved ones of Tim Keller right now, they're saying, Why God? If they are well, all I can tell them to do is you just pick up your doubts, you pick up your questions, you pick up your broken heart, and you follow after Jesus. And one day we will see clearly, and somehow the curtain will be parted, and we will see that Romans 8 28 is still true, that he is at work in all things for the good of those that love him and are called according to his purpose. And once again, we'll go, look at you, God. You did it again. You did it again.
SPEAKER_00Compensation is a critical component of building a great team and retaining your staff members. Talk to our team today about our customized compensation solutions or visit Vanderblumen.com slash compensation to learn more.
SPEAKER_02Can I share my one Tim Keller story?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, go for it. I get invited to speak at a conference that JD Greer was hosting. JD's a dear friend, and he and he and Tim Keller are pretty close, you know. And I and so he invites me to come to speak at this conference, and I always ask who else is gonna be at the conference for many reasons. But he replied, he's like, you know, Tim Keller is gonna be there. And I literally, on my agreement, said, as long as I don't have to preach after him. That's literally what it says, the only way I'm coming. Well, JD Keller preaches twice, once before me and once after me. And so, look, man, I don't get intimidated very easily. I definitely don't like for confidence, but you've heard me preach. I mean, it's a little bit of like the blue-collar comedy tour meets you know Romans, but bro, and then Keller gets done and sits on the front row while I am preaching. And I thought, oh my gosh, it was the most intimidating thing I've ever done in my life. And then afterwards, he's so incredibly gracious. So gracious, man. He was so, I mean, he he he said very nice things to me, which he didn't have to say, but it was awesome.
SPEAKER_01I was uh 27 starting doctoral work at Reformed Seminary and taking what classes were available. And ironically, the first class I took was uh church revitalization from Harry Reeder, pastor at Briarwood, who died in a car wreck yesterday morning.
SPEAKER_03Oh gosh, crazy.
SPEAKER_01Biggest church in the PCA, flagship church. Uh um he taught me that, and then I took this preaching to the postmodern world with Tim Keller and Ed Clowney. And uh I had no idea what I was in for. I'd heard a couple sermons. We had a little front yard, and when I mowed the front yard, I listened to like a PCU essay pastor because their sermons were short, and then the backyard was big. I listened to a Tim Keller sermon on the backyard because a longer, longer thing. So, but uh what I didn't foresee was his ability, like people would argue with him, just to say I argue with Tim Keller and his ability to articulate his critics' point of view better than they could. That's right. Yeah, yeah, he didn't do the straw man, he did the steel man. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He well, we could go on and on with stories, yeah. But um uh he he pointed a lot of us back to uh um the miracle worker and not the miracle, right?
SPEAKER_03He did, man, and he also uh helped give us a framework that there was this gospel truth, and here's how the rebel rebelled against it, and here's how the religious rejected it. That's right, and then here's how the surrendered person to the gospel was impacted by it. I always thought that was so brilliant.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. A great uh just a fantastic class. Look to the rock was the main text. Fantastic book if people haven't found it. I like Moik here. Um in any event, I owe a lot of what little I know of preaching to him. I know you've been affected by the gospel project, and and you see it in this book because in the book you're not talking about the miracles, you're talking about the miracle worker. And uh I think that uh readers will find if you were surprised at how well the first book did, uh I think the second was gonna do better. And uh I just uh wish you the best as you and the next rank up. I remember when we met. I think I I must they must have I must have been like the tenth alternate to be a moderator in a focus group, and uh it was with uh Larry Osbourne and Steve Stroop and me and all these young guys, and you were one of those. And now I notice you're convening a group uh of lead pastors. Yeah, yeah. I guess that means we're getting older, but uh, you want to talk about how you're pouring into some of the younger guys around now, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we've been blessed at our church too to uh we were able to purchase a retreat center a couple few years ago to uh a couple few thousand acres up in South Georgia. Um it was actually like uh Calvin Coolidge's Camp David back in the days, a place called Cabin Bluff used to be a like a quail lodge, and then uh it came up for sale into a crazy series of events. We got it, and I think the problem with adult discipleship is adults quit going to camp. And so basically we bought church camp for adults, and we take about 2,000 1122ers through there every year. In fact, right now, my wife's running a women's retreat there. Well, we also leverage it to host about, I don't know, probably take three, four hundred pastors through there, and so uh Carrie Williams, who uh is an 1122er and one of the original founders of 1122, she's now the CEO of Leadership Network, and so I mean, we're just doing some of the things that was were most foundational to me in the role that I am now, and um and you know, I've been doing it a minute now. I turned 50 this year, so maybe I'm finally qualified to pour into some other guys. You know, I'll tell you, I've been married for 23 years, and my wife has been she's ages like wine, I age like milk, just chunky and white, you know what I mean? And so good gracious, I do. I mean, especially since planting a church, it'll make you age like a banana, you know. It takes it comes at you quick, but you know, we've got some experience and we don't know what we're doing, but God's breathing on it, and we've learned a thousand ways of not to do things, and we've stumbled upon some things that are at least for us, seem to be working. And we're just trying to share with other guys the biggest thing we're trying to share is that we're for you, we Love you. There's a community here. I mean, because all the guys you met, I am still in constant contact with you and Larry and Steve Stroop. I mean, I can call any of you at any time for all kinds of things. And all these years later, you guys immediately answer and have been so helpful over the last 10 or 12 years. And so you know, we want to be that for some other guys too.
SPEAKER_01That's good. What is it? What do they say? Uh, why is it that wisdom is wasted on the old? Right.
SPEAKER_03But I feel like I still, I still, there's a there's there's a few things. Um, I think I've quoted you for so long that everybody on my staff thinks I made it up, so I just don't let them not think that. But um, I mean, one of the things that you said it was off record, but I guess I'm gonna out you. You were like, look, guys, you're gonna marry your lid or a launch pad. Remember that hold a whole talk about about who you're married to. Um uh Larry does the same thing, he talks about the difference between calling and potential, particularly, you know, when your kids only have one dad, your church is gonna have plenty of pastors, and so um that there's so many things I learned from you guys and continue to learn from you guys that I get to implement, uh, which is which has been really helpful.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's been uh awesome to watch what God's doing through you and to hear what's going on at 1122, keep doing a little bit of work for you here and there, and uh just love every time we come back, we see you have five more canvases. You get navigated campground, yeah. So if you're not familiar with 1122, I think you should check out the show notes. We'll put all the right links in for books and blogs and that sort of thing. And uh I know you're busy. We're in the middle of a busy season, and and you could be doing a lot of other things, Joby. But take time and pour into the people that listen to this means a lot. So I appreciate you taking taking a minute and uh visiting with us about your book.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, man, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for all you do, bro, for the for the kingdom. I mean, you're one of the most kingdom-minded guys I've been around, and we appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01You need to get out more. Oh, so listen, if you're listening for the first time, go to Vandercast.com, give us your email address. We won't send you an offer for a salad shooter against Tsunives or anything like that. Just send you the show notes and you can keep up with uh all the great friends that I've gotten to make over the years and maybe meet some new ones as well. So thanks for joining us today. We'll see you again soon.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderblumen.com to learn more, and subscribe to our Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.