Well, everybody today is going to be a great episode. My good friend Anthony Delaney from across the front is coming to us. He would say we're the ones across the front. We've got a fundamental from the UK, and it's a wonderful conversation about what if you're in the United States doing ministry, you can see into the future and strategize about the future by learning what Anthony's having to do now in the protest Christian world in the UK. Listen, you'll be glad you did, and God will stretch your thinking. So glad that you made it uh with me today. And our guest today is making an extra effort to be here because I'm recording at noon, and it is 7 p.m. your time, Anthony, or 6 p.m. It's uh 6 p.m. Yes, 6 p.m. So Anthony Delaney is a friend for the last three years or so of and Anthony is in Manchester, England. Some of you who are listening or even watching would know Dave Ferguson and the New Thing Network. Anthony's been tied into that group for a long time and church planting. Uh, we got connected through Dave, and uh I got to go over to a conference in the UK. In fact, it was the last trip I made in 2019 before the world fell apart in 2020. And uh just got to see a wonderful, wonderful thing that God's doing over in the UK. God is expanding our vision for what he wants us to do at Vanderblumen. And part of that is thinking more about the church. Years ago, it was like, hey, William, the church is more than people who gather on Sundays. So we started a school practice for Christian schools and a nonprofit for Christian nonprofits and work with for-profit companies that that function sort of like the Chick-fil-A's of the world. And and then God, you know, kind of brought to my mind again, so why are you so um self-absorbed in just thinking about the US? We've done a little bit of international work over the years, but but then we say, well, let's let's get a little more intentional about building relationships. And uh one of the first people I met was Anthony. And I thought as we start to introduce you to our international friends, the very first person I wanted you to meet was Anthony. So, Anthony, thanks for taking time to uh spend with us today, especially on a Friday evening.
SPEAKER_02Hey, such a pleasure, William. It always is great to spend time with you and your team. You're you're always an inspiration to us, and uh, it's just it's fantastic.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Well, I would love if you would tell a little bit of your story. Uh, some of you may know Tim Gaucher, who heads up our entire consultant team here. Tim's life before ministry was he was a cop, he was a police officer. And uh I'd love to hear your story, how you ended up in ministry and and really tell people. I think some of the things you've done at your church in Manchester are actually more innovative than what we've done here. So I'd love to hear start to where you are now. Tell us a little of your story, Anthony.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, cool. I mean, I've just gone and reached to go and get this off the shelf, which is the amazing helmet that I used to wear, the Bobby's helmet, you might call it, when I was a police officer here in Manchester. So I always wanted to be a cop when I was a little boy. That was the dream. Uh joined the police cadets when I was 16, um, which was like, I suppose, like an armed army cadet kind of thing. Then at 18 and a half, I became a fully fledged police officer here in the center of Manchester. Did that for 10 years as a police officer. I was on the riot squad, the drug squad, various things like this. And um, and it was during that time I met my wife, Zoe, um, and uh, she was a Christian believer. I didn't really have any faith in anybody except myself, uh, which was um not a great thing to have faith in, to be honest with you, because I certainly I'm not qualified to be God, it turned out. And um, and then from there I uh I made a commitment to Jesus Christ. I started to go along to an Anglican church, became later on ordained as an Anglican uh vicar and was involved in uh different kinds of churches down in the south of England, and then 15 years ago came back to Manchester, back to my home city, uh, which is about a three million population, and um took on a church there called uh which which is now called Ivy Church, which has been uh going for over a hundred years here in the city, and um yeah, and we you know took on one old building, and uh you know that had uh one uh one or two services on a Sunday morning. And since then we've we've grown out in lots of places and we've planted out in many places, and some of them still retain some connection to us as ivy, and many of them are more like the kids that you kind of wave off and they grow on their own. Um, and in the end, it's uh yeah, it's just a privilege to be able to help to encourage other people to um raise up disciples that make disciples, leaders who grow other leaders, churches that plant churches. That's really what we're about.
SPEAKER_03Uh, one of the things I love that you've done, I think since we met in 2019, um, is the way you you're using your space. And I mean, you have less dirt in the UK than we do in the US. So space is at a premium. Tell us a little bit about how you uh utilized your space so that it's functional throughout the week.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we ended up just before uh the whole lockdown thing, we'd just begun negotiation on um, we partnered together with a cricket club and a lacrosse club. We we um went into a collaboration with them and then we approached the city that we would invest in their facilities and that we would buy the land. And then this and all they had, the only building that they really had on there was a horrible, really sort of drinking hole of a place, a bar. And um, we took that on. We invested money from as a church into it, we've made it into a sports center, but also there's we built a new uh changing room facilities, etc., for the sports team, and um we we bought the land off the city, they gave it us at an incredibly low price because they love the vision of this collaboration and connection for everybody to work together for the good of everybody. So now we yeah, we do services there on a Sunday morning and in various times as well. But at the same time, I was just in there earlier today. We have a cafe that's open in there, people come into the coffee shop. We we have friends that are coming in there for various things. We we just opened up, I just posted on my Facebook page actually a sensory room in there for children, um, you know, like who are autistic or have uh, you know, just to help them to be able to have a place where they can through light and and uh different uh space in there, like a soft center. There's kids going in there now, they have to book and it's properly established. But which I just heard a miracle story from there, one little boy uh who I think was about seven or eight years old, who's never spoken a word. And he came into our sensory space just the other day and said his first word in there, and he's he just said he said magical. That was the word that was his mom was tears because she it's the first word she'd ever heard her son speak, and I think it's a healing place for sure. So we have this large space of land, we've been able to we don't maintain it, the cricket club, they maintain it, we just get to use it, and we've done outdoor um things for the community on there, so yeah, we're it's a partnership for the good of everybody with uh the church right at the center of that connection.
SPEAKER_03It's almost like uh I know you know Dave Dummett from the New Thing Network, and he uh started a church called 242 in Michigan where they uh were committed. I'm gonna I'm gonna get this quite right, but they basically built community centers that happen to have church on Sundays. And it's almost that sort of model, if that uh yeah, and the trend here is to have uh work, life, and play in one place now, you know, multi-use places. And I think churches are starting to latch on to that. But I would encourage you guys, we'll put in the show notes uh a link. Maybe we can get even get a link to that video you have of the uh wonderful use of the place, might inspire people to think a little bit differently. I just loved that the church in uh the country that we started in is being more innovative than us pioneers in the West uh in doing these things. I get I guess the only danger, maybe you have to schedule around it. You know, here if we had uh uh well, we would I'll say football, but I mean soccer match uh at the church, that's fine. But I guess if you have a cricket match that starts on Friday, it could bleed all the way into Sunday.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, yeah, they do go on. I mean, well, one just recently we we because we established a what we call like a micro church. There were some guys from the church who started to reach out to their friends and neighbors, they did alpha courses, etc. And one of the ladies who came to Christ through that, we recently baptized her at the sports center, but she was there, gave her story of how she came to know Jesus, etc. Then we put the baptistry that we'd got outside on the car park as the cricket game was going on, and this was baptized while the cricket, while everybody was watching the cricket, for a while, everybody stopped watching the cricket to see this woman being baptized. And it was an amazing picture of all of these kind of worlds colliding together and uh you know, new believer and the church celebrating and clapping and cheering, something that's you know, to be honest with you, way better than cricket, as far as I'm concerned.
SPEAKER_03That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Hey, let me ask you this. There are a lot of people, I don't know that I agree with this, but you know, you go to Europe and uh not so much in England, but other parts of Europe, you see former churches that are now bars or art museums or businesses, and a lot of the uh maybe you could call it realistic, maybe you call it pessimistic uh futurists here in the states say if you want to see what the church in the United States is going to look like in 100 years, 50 years, just look at Europe. It's a post-Christian. So let's just let's just for kicks assume they're right. And we now get to interview somebody 50 years ahead of time that's already doing ministry in your context. What should we in the states be learning from you who are in a uh uh I would call arguably a post-Christian culture in the UK? What are some of the things you're having to face that maybe we're not yet?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'd say, I mean, the key one, there's a there's a place, there is a there is a place I went to recently, which is like now a climbing center. Um, and you know, people go in there and and I realized as I pulled up that it was actually an it used to be a church. And it was it just hit me when I went in there because it's full and there's people in there, lots of young people in there, but they're now doing climbing. That's what they're doing in there. And on one of the walls, there was it was like uh somebody had painted up many years before without the vision, the people perish. And I thought, wow, there you go. You know, at some point that church had a vision and it and it grew. At some point, it took its eyes off the vision, and um, you know, it stopped thinking that we're actually here to help people to find their way back to God, to help them to become full-on disciples, not just to be churchgoers, not just to come into a service and sing your song and leave, but actually to in some way be the light of the world that's gonna shine in the darkest places. And um, you know, people took their eyes off that vision, and maybe they got all kinds of other vision for what church was about. But in the end, if we're doing it the way Jesus says, he said the gates of hell are not going to prevail against his church that he's building. I think that to some extent, we can't just expect that people will want to come in. It's certainly not the case in the UK. We've got to be prepared to go out, and we have to be the city set on a hill that can't be hidden. And people are are attracted to that. I think, too, our messaging very often has to be one of hope. We're here to to to, you know, in Peter, he wrote uh second Peter, he said the always be ready to give everybody who asks you the reason for the hope that you have. And I think the that above all else, so often Christians, it's so easy these days to get pulled into the fights and the arguments and the binary this or that of culture. And in the end, which whatever your your your your views is on views are on particular political issues or whatever, though, I mean I'm not saying those things don't matter, but but in the end, if we don't get to be heard as the voice of hope, whatever is happening, then why should anybody come to to what we're doing and be interested in that? So I think that we we want to do that. And and you know, so as we expand out into the future, it might be that we use old church buildings that that somebody else used to use that now is you know, I mean, just literally on the other side of the road for me down the road, there's now a church, an old church that for many years now has been a mosque. And you know, so it that is like it's grievous to me, I have to say, that an old church, a Christian church, would now become a mosque. Um, but you know, if if we but in the end, the church is not the building anyway. The church we need to recover is the people, and as and the question for me that we also have to stop so much asking is less how many people are coming to your church, because all you're gonna get out of that message maybe is church goers, and all I've got to do is be a little bit better than the church down the road to compete with them. Whereas, in fact, the better question is how many people are going from your church? How many people are going with a sense of mission? How many people are going uh to go and make a difference for Jesus in their workplace, in the uh in their schools, in the family places that that God's put them, and and how are we helping people to be equipped to to fulfill all the destiny that God's got for them rather than just we've got to make the switch from trying to get church goers to actually help people to go to to see church go. That's that's what we uh we need to be churches that go and make the difference. And when I say that, that's gonna be small, medium, large. It does, you know, it doesn't matter. What matters is are people on fire, are they inspired? I think we I think anybody who now in this nation is probably the same as yours, William, who's who's choosing to come back to church from from the time when they couldn't meet, you know, when we I mean, I don't know what it's like. I know different states have different rules, but here in the UK, there was times when we just literally could not open the doors of church so that people could come in. And that was for a long, long time. So now people who are coming back, I think we can't overchallenge them. I'm like, look, if you made the decision to come back here, what for you what are you coming here for? And we can set a high bar on discipleship rather than go back into consumer mentality of we're so glad you came. Here's your free coffee, we're gonna look after your kids. You don't have to do anything, you just come and we'll love on you, etc. etc. And and I think actually what we can say to people is we're so glad you came. Now let's help you to go in the power of the spirit and and make a difference for Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Hiring is getting harder, and you need the right people to accomplish your mission. Learn how we can help you find the right people for your team today. Contact us to get started. We would love to help.
SPEAKER_03That's so good. So then so my mind's racing now because I'm thinking, you know, in the states, we had uh there are these models, the the attractional model, like let's build a service where I could invite my own church friend. And then there's the the missional model of no, let's train disciples and send them out into the world. Both models have the same goal. All we want to do is overpopulate heaven, right? So it in the states, we're still doing some attractional and it's moving toward missional. If if you guys are a picture 50 years in front, how do you design your service? Do you do you guys sit and concern yourself with, well, what if Emma, your daughter, brings her friend that doesn't go to church? Are they gonna feel like they're an outsider or not? Does that come into play, or is it more about nope, let's equip who we have? And if visitors come, then they can just look from the outside and like how do you approach that?
SPEAKER_02I think we do both. I think that the you know, there's nothing more attractional than being incarnational, you know. Literally means we want to be like Jesus to the people who come. We want to we want to be the body of Christ when people who come in. And so a lot of that, I think most of it is is putting ourselves in the position. I do try and put myself in the position of that guy I used to be way back in the day, in my early 20s, who didn't care at all about the things of God, but somehow, in some way, started to get interested through a relationship enough to be able to check it out. We want to meet those people where they're at and and speak their language in some way and connect to them, but then challenge them as to not stay there, but what's the next step for you? I mean, we've we've reduced some materials, I've done, I've done various things. We have a thing called knowing, growing, going, which is like helping people to look at a booklet or watch a YouTube video. You can know God personally, you can grow as a Christian, and here's how it's by loving God and loving other people, and then you can go. We you you've got a story to tell other people. We have a thing called Discipleship Pathway, it's available on right now media. Some of you people might know about right now media. There's a there's a whole set, there's a session I've done on there called Discipleship Pathway, and it's really to help people wherever they're at, there's another step. You could have been, you know, somebody could have been in church 30 years, but really they've been in church for one month, many, many, many, many times. They've not actually grown as a Christian in all that time, they're not really grown as a disciple, they put the years in, but in terms of what are we actually doing, you know, to to obey. And I think this is the challenge I want to bring to people is look, obey to the level of your understanding. You know, what are the things that you know God's saying to you, and what are you gonna do about them? And for some people who are brand new to that, actually, they're more ready for a challenge than somebody I've found who's been in church 20 years. Yeah, we can take that person who's new and open, who's saying, Hey, what's this going on, and give them a high bar challenge. No, Jesus did it with a rich young ruler, you know, he was like, Okay, this is what I want you to do. And he, you know, he gave him a high bar challenge. And um, you know, I I don't I don't know. I mean, I read something that said that some scholars believe that guy might have actually been John Mark. That that he came back and he's kind of writing himself into the story a little bit, you know, because uh he's the guy who ran away naked in the garden, too, you know. And if you know, you know, those of us who are watching listening to this who know their Bibles, you know, there's this guy who's kind of saying, actually, Jesus high bar challenged me, and I walked away. But what if he came back? And you know, so yeah, I think uh we we can appropriately challenge people, and really a lot of it is just we should talk today's language in a way that Jesus did, and that I think is a is a key. You know, I think very often churches can think that real discipleship is making things complicated, and and making and whereas actually, you know, somebody I remember years ago, somebody saying that that Jesus came to make God in you know mysterious, complicated things simple. And ever since then the church has gone and done it the other way around. We we we tried to make it that the longer you've been here, the more you need to know that you need to know Greek and you need to know Hebrew and you need to know this and all of that. And it just puts people off actually doing what they know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, so yeah. Well, that's that's great wisdom. I mean, you have stretched my thinking. Um, for those of you who don't know, uh Anthony actually is leading a bit of a movement over in the UK and has a conference. Um, I'm gonna get a chance to go visit there this year. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh, it's called the launch conference. Um, I I spoke at it in 2019. I'd forgotten until you told me um what was the theme in 2019? Go viral in November of 19. Yeah. Let's see, I didn't teach a thing.
SPEAKER_02Tell us, tell the story you told me. I actually, one of my teachings at it was I kind of did a hypothetical. We were looking at Paul and Barnabas and those guys and how they took the gospel and went from Antioch and how it spread everywhere. And I said it was like a virus, and they were like the guys who had the high R number that was going to go and spread it. And I I showed a model of I'd found about how hypothetically, if if uh a virus started in the Far East, maybe in somewhere like China, how that could then spread out in the nations and what we need, some people who were highly infected to go and travel around the world, and before long it would be everywhere. And I showed these pictures in 2019, I had a conference called Go Viral, and I still kind of keep expecting maybe the CIA or somebody are gonna come and uh and ask some serious questions.
SPEAKER_03It's funny. Once a cop, always a cop. Yeah, so now we just need to take your gift of prophecy and find a really great positive message for this year's conference. But uh it is coming up in November, you've expanded it to.
SPEAKER_02sites and i would imagine there's a virtual experience too for people in the states that want to uh want to participate yeah yeah definitely people will be able to get the uh the the down the digital download of all of the talks we've got various people that are coming we're not announcing all the speakers yet for those of you in the states you're gonna know james emory white is coming for sure as well as William and many of you might know James Emery White he just speaks wonderfully into culture uh he's you know such uh he's he's a guy who's always ahead of the curve and just looking around it and helping us all to to and he's a friend of launch he's been along a few times to it and uh so yeah launchcatalyst.org is the website and it's uh you know people are free to look on there and if you're uh if you can possibly get to the UK um around October then you end of October beginning november north and south we'd love to see you oh I was blown away Dave Ferguson's wisdom to introduce me to you I thought for sure our first international office would be in London and Dave said just go visit Manchester just go take a look I mean London's cool and gets all the headlines but Manchester that's a hidden jewel and uh I was so glad I went this time uh my son will officially kill me uh if I don't do some fun things last time I think I came the night I came on the day I was speaking and missed the chance to go to I think it was the Man City Liverpool match uh and he couldn't believe that I passed on that so uh this year we'll have to we'll have to maybe fix that a little bit. For sure. Yeah no we'll do that we'll look for the fun obviously the fixtures aren't there yet but we'll keep our eyes open.
SPEAKER_03Yeah yeah yeah well uh before we wrap up I thought it might be worth pointing people toward your website with what's the domain for your blog yeah I mean there's a couple you could look on ivychurch.org because there's lots of our previous talks and teaching all available on there for free and we put everything on YouTube.
SPEAKER_02I do a blog called uh anthidydelaney.com which is pretty easy to remember if you can remember my name you can remember that um and uh yeah I want to do to you know continue to do more of that and uh you know I I just I I I'm interested also just to in connect with people and pray into the whole thing of of how churches are going to be in the future and and for me William just again to underline staffing and culture and leadership are so key to those things which is why I'm delighted for our connection and so the things that I learned from you and you guys you know excited to hear about uh your you know new publishing um ventures I don't know what more you're saying about that for the future uh but we just love to learn from you guys uh as well because you know your book Culture Wins has been something that I've turned to again and again to to help us to recognize the value you know of getting the the right people on your team and then and um and effectively building something that that people love to be part of um so that they're they're just willing to serve and you don't have to have a carrot you know in my world as they often say in in church circles I don't have a carrot I don't have a stick you know and so ultimately we have to build cultures that people love to give their best to and to to be a part of and uh you know I just commend to anybody while I'm on here your you know your your book on on culture wins for sure is tell doesn't just tell the story of what you've done but also um helps has helped our story as we go forward.
SPEAKER_03Well and what a great time to get to I mean we can reset everything now we had a pandemic. If we don't like the way things you can just blame the pandemic oh you know we had to get rid of that you know the pandemic oh you know we had to start something new because you know the pandemic and uh hopefully we can work on building better workplace cultures together uh both here and in the UK and then abroad so I I don't want people to leave without going to Amazon and looking for you a couple great books that I've seen The Man You Were Made to Be and The Best Marriage. And if you just Anthony Delaney into Amazon you'll find them there.
SPEAKER_02I think Moody Press is the yeah both published by Moody so available widely through them we know one of them is a discipleship book for men looks at different facets of a man's life and it's things like fitness and finances and family and failures and lots of things beginning with F that kind of you know we all need to grow. I'm not saying in any way I'm perfect and that would certainly be the case with regard to the marriage I'm not saying I have the best marriage do everything like me I'm saying that I've realized over 35 years of being married things my wife has taught me um that there are practices there's things that we can build in that will help what is for me my most important earthly relationship to to be one that is the best it can be and the way that God designed it.
SPEAKER_03Well I I can say to everybody listening today that Anthony will stretch your thinking and I would encourage you to just stretch your thinking for whatever vision God has in your life in your ministry for your church. I think I never do a good enough job of dreaming as big as God has. And he keeps stretching my sense of things we've done some work in Dublin and we've done some work in Asia and we've done work in Australia and Latin America but only because it just happened to come and God kept saying no William you need to intentionally start to plan to expand because my church is bigger than the US and I don't know if that speaks to you as you think of your mission work. I don't know if it speaks to you about partnerships or even today just learning new strategies from somebody who who frankly is a little farther into post-Christendom than we are. But I hope that this was uh a moment where you might stop and say God just stretch my thinking just stretch my vision to match yours and uh Anthony you've you've done a lot for me already I can't wait to see where God leads us in the future. Thanks for making time for us on a Friday night. Appreciate it. Uh if you heard the sirens in the background those were not prearranged because we have a cop on they they they were just the God's sense of humor smiling they're playing my tune Anthony it's always a joy have a great evening and a great sabbatical and we'll look forward to seeing you across the pond here in the fall.
SPEAKER_00Can't wait thank you William Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast at Vanderblumen we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring succession compensation and diversity consulting services visit our website vanderblomen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblumen leadership podcast wherever you listen to podcast to keep up with our newest episode. Thanks for listening.