Alan is a leader on the pastoral team of Calvin State of Church in California, and he starts on the global leadership team of the Advanced Movement of Church. He's also authored multiple books, such as his latest work, Songs for a Saturated Soul, an Increased Guide to Emotional Health. In this conversation, Rick and Alan discuss the negating tension between self-care and self-denial. Alan also emphasizes the importance of wholeness and health and how it's foundational to ministry. We hope you enjoy the conversation.
SPEAKER_02Well, welcome to the Vanderblumen Podcast. I'm Rick Callahan. I'm one of Vanderblumen's consultants that meets with churches and candidates around the country. And I'm delighted to be joined today by Alan Frau. Alan is the pastor of Southlands Church in Brea, California, down in SoCal. And I met Alan for the first time at the Advanced Network National Gathering. I'm a part of a church that's a part of the Advanced Network. And he's on the global leadership team with Advanced. And um and I I met him as he was talking about how to navigate this tension between self-care and self-denial. So I'd love to just have a conversation with Alan about that today. So welcome, Alan.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Rick. Fantastic to be uh on your podcast and uh great to meet you a few weeks ago and uh to be able to reconnect. I'm glad to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, excited and been looking forward for this conversation. I think when we talked about doing it, you're getting ready to go overseas. Was it to that's right.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Yeah, we we jumped on uh on the plane uh the day after hosting the conference and uh headed off about a 30-hour flight to um to Thailand. Uh our church planted uh uh in the north of Thailand um about six years ago. So we were with the church there for a week and then um went across to Singapore uh as well to do ministry with uh with some good friends of ours that planted there 15 years ago from the church we were in in Johannesburg. Um there's a young couple that that left uh just the two of them and uh met their first uh couple congregation on the plane, and uh they 15 years later just a thriving five congregation uh church multi multilingual in Singapore. So it was a was a great trip, but I have to say that um after a 30-hour flight, uh my message on self-denial was being sorely tested. I bet.
SPEAKER_02And of course, the timing was perfect because you came home at the beginning of the Easter season because there was nothing to do then.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Yeah, it was it was a perfect storm in some ways. We we came home uh after 10 days, and first thing I had to do before preparing for Easter was to do uh the funeral of um of a dear dear man who who died in in February uh in our church, a young man uh 30 years old, close friend of my son's. They uh ran an athlete's training company together. And so, you know, to do that coming back was tough, was tough. But um, but uh Easter obviously was a was a real high. Um, and uh just been now a couple of days catching up breath in Mexico, which has been fantastic. Uh so feeling pretty good.
SPEAKER_02Good. Well, I'm glad we could take time to connect here today. Um, so just to kind of lay some groundwork, tell us a little bit about your ministry journey, where you got started, how you ended up in Southern California.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks. Yeah, both my wife and I grew up uh in a little town called Hillcrest, about uh 30 minutes outside Durban in South Africa, that's on the East Coast. And um, high school sweet arts. Um, she got saved in our youth. I grew up uh in that church. My folks have been leaders in that church for 50 years. So I'm a PK. Um we left that church after a year of marriage and joined a church a little church plant in the neighboring town. And at that time, um I was finishing a degree, uh, doing a lot of worship, uh, writing, recording, and travel with my band. And um and so, yeah, we we found ourselves as part of a multiplying church, a church that was planted as part of a multiplying movement, and just found ourselves in that world. So we've only ever known uh churches that plant churches. And um within about two years, I was asked to join the staff and the pastoral team. So young, um, young worship leader found himself just really drawn to um pastoral ministry and really well mentored. So by the age 23, I was an elder in our church um and uh still doing worship, but uh but broadening that ministry. And um yeah, we we continued in that church for about seven years, then moved to a larger city called Johannesburg, was on the staff of a larger uh church and and traveling a lot again with with worship. And then uh my wife and I led our first church in Johannesburg uh 2003. Um and around that time, you know, we were traveling a lot and kept on um landing at a church called Southlands in in LA that would host our uh network's annual North American Conference. And we just felt drawn to the church. And after a number of times visiting, the lead pastor uh sat with us and just said, Look, we are a multiplying church. We have they had planted 12 times in 14 years, and which for a medium-sized church was pretty remarkable. And uh they just sent out a lot of leaders. He said, Would you consider handing over your church um in uh in Johannesburg and coming and joining us just to bolster the team? So we took about two years to pray that through and um and find a leader replacement, and end of 2007, we arrived here. Um so we've been here 15 years, same church. Uh, the first three years again uh on the broader team, uh preaching and doing worship, but then after three years um was handed leadership of the church. So it's been been 15 years with the church and 12 years leading. We didn't think we'd ever stay here this long, but it's been a privilege to uh to just be in the same town, same congregation, watch it grow. Um we've we've multiplied uh number of times in the last uh in the last uh 10 years, I think six, six or seven uh plants, and and and so that's been been uh wonderful. But you know, we've we've rarely tried to give ourselves to health more than um sort of plants or growth being notches on the belt. Uh we we really care about health, but the Lord has has grown us, which has been wonderful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I mean that's quite a journey, and probably lots of culture shock along the way. Yeah, seen a bunch of different things. What and you mentioned, and that's one of the things that really drew me to Southlands and the advanced network is it's really about health because healthy things grow and reproduce. But what have you learned about health, pace of life, rhythm of life along the way? Yeah, maybe that was good and not so good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, um, that first pastor who who took a risk on me as a young 23-year-old worship leader said to me um about 25 years ago, he said, you know, Alan, God is more interested in your wholeness than your ministry. And uh to my shame, I took about 20 years to take him seriously. Um and uh, but you know, as uh as as C.S. Lewis says in his book, The Problem of Pain, pain is God's megaphone. He whispers in our pleasure, but uh shouts in our pain. And so it took really um uh uh certainly COVID, but even before before COVID in 2019. Um no, it was more 2018. Uh my first sabbatical, um, starting to go to a spiritual director and just realized that um the 20 years of ministry had taken their toll. Um and so, not that I totally disregarded things before that, but but certainly the last five years have been a much more intense journey of um saying, man, wholeness and health is absolutely foundational to ministry. And you know, just that thing that we often quote, what does it profit a man if he gained the whole world but forfeit his soul? We often think, oh, that's about people getting rich and powerful, but um, it can also be uh people who are trying to um fulfill the Great Commission and plant churches and make disciples. Um, you can also forfeit your soul doing a very good thing. And so I think the last five years has just been um a very intentional journey of saying, what what does it mean to have a big vision, um, to trust God for great things, but not to forfeit your soul while while doing it. Um and uh so that's that's been something of of the journey. And I think, you know, even in terms of the way I try and and lead our team and our staff, um, I know Van der Bloemen is very much about um healthy teams and healthy staffs. And I uh I'm fascinated where where the apostle Paul says uh in in 1 Corinthians 4, you are God's building, you are God's field to the Corinthians. And I think very often we look at a church like a building more than a field, or even a team like a building um more than a field, or even your soul, we can look like that. And so in America, in particular, where we we love our formula, we we love our recipe, like you do this and that and that, and then you know you'll get here. I think because we are ambitious in this country, uh, because we like to dream big, and those are all things I absolutely love. But we can tend to go, okay, you just put these things in place and you'll be here. Uh, but actually, people are not like that. They're not as simple as that. Churches are not like that. Um, churches are not just buildings brick by brick, they they are fields. And so they um they go through seasons. Um, there's seasons of sowing and there's seasons of of harvest. And not every season is is a season of harvest. Um, and then you know, there's seasons where a field needs to lie fellow. Um and so that has been uh a big lesson for for me is what are those seasons? Um, and and particularly seasons where a church or a or a person or a team needs to lie fellow, they need to be cultivated for future fruitfulness. And that pushes against every uh you know, goal or or or metric because because how do you measure health in a fellow fellow season? But I think over years it just had to go man, unless there's some slower, more fellow seasons, you actually run out of health in the soil.
SPEAKER_02It's so true. I I can remember uh running a marathon a few years ago with my son and learning the hard lesson in training that if you don't fuel um properly, no matter how hard you want to finish the race, you can't. Yeah, you you can't. I mean, you know, and I was someone who was in local church ministry for over three decades and for a big portion of it bought into that narrative that it's all up and to the right, you go, go, go, go, it's for the sake of the kingdom. And some if I'm honest, I probably have to ask whose kingdom was I really building sometimes. Right, right. Um and as as a result, got to a place where there was just nothing left in the tank.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so have in the last probably decade really paid attention to those rhythms and things that can help me live a sustainable life, help me live as the image of God I was created to be. And that seems to be um running counter to a lot of the success narratives that that I bought into. And I think so maybe subconsciously we still think about. Um how would you speak to that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it it I would just agree. I would I would affirm it. I think um we are under an incredible amount of pressure, or we put ourselves under uh pressure in many ways um to produce, and and metrics in the life of the church uh are just so squirrely, aren't they? Um you you it's not um as simple as you you put the work in and then you reap the harvest. I mean, Jesus is Lord of the harvest, and um sometimes you sow sparingly and reap abundantly, and other times you slow sow uh abundantly and reap sparingly. It's a it's a squirrel thing. Um, and I think I I would just come back to Jesus' teaching in John 15: I am the vine, you are the branches. Apart from me, you can do nothing. But if you abide in me and my words abide in you, you will bear fruit that lasts. And that's I turned 50 this this year, and honestly, that is my my vision to abide in Christ, have his words abide in me, and to bear fruit that lasts. We do, we find ourselves right now in a in a season of pretty rapid growth, and that's that's so wonderful. But you know, um, I I hold it with with light hands just because there have been other seasons where I've worked even harder where we haven't experienced that, you know. So just go like, man, let me not fall in love with with this. You know, we often talk about momentum. Um, and momentum is a wonderful thing when you have it, you it it really is. But you know, momentum sometimes can be tricky because it's I say momentum covers a multitude of sins, like it it makes you look better than you actually are. And sometimes God in his kindness will remove momentum from you. It's almost like the tide going out in a sea, he'll allow the tide to go out to see what's really underneath. And for us not to see that as a waste of a season, actually, God uh disciplines those he loves, and sometimes he takes us through seasons that feel more like discipline than life and momentum. But actually, he's doing it, he's training us in righteousness for for the for the future. And, you know, if you look at the certainly the evangelical landscape um over the last few years, it's just been so sad, um, distressing, the number of people that we would say they successful, they fruitful, they impactful, but actually under the momentum they were experiencing was was a lot of of submerged um darkness and brokenness. Um and so yeah, for us just to to have a have a vision of of both outward and inward uh uh change, you know, uh Ruby Wallace, one of our global team members, said um said this about three years ago when we were we were going as a as a as a network through a time where two of our founding members had had to stand back. And it wasn't for outright immorality, but it was just some of this uh emotional, relational, unhealth patterns of unhealth. And, you know, being a young movement, we're about 10 years old and have grown fairly rapidly. And he just said, uh I believe that in this coming season, we need to have a vision of the gospel that uh advances on two frontiers, um, on one frontier to the ends of the earth, but on another frontier to the depths of the soul. And I, you know, we called advance, and I think our vision was primarily we want to advance the gospel to the ends of the earth, but we still believe that. But what would it be to see uh the frontiers of the gospel advance along two frontiers, not just to the ends of the earth, but to the depths of the soul? Um, that, according to Jesus, is fruitfulness and success, and I want to be part of that. Yeah, that's beautiful.
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SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it strikes me as you were describing that, the thought that kept going through my head as something that I feel like I had a wrestling match with the father about, and he eventually I not that he wouldn't win, but I finally relented, probably would be the best way to describe it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where I was f finally convinced of the reality that when I look around by church or other aspects, even my family, where I'm like, uh, I wanted to blame other people, and yeah, and and uh the the spirit gently whispered, no, actually they're a reflection of their leader.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02And so we reproduce who we are, right? And so it was like, okay, then then how do I need to live differently with God's health? So with that kind of as a backdrop, what as you've taken this journey, what changes in practices, relationships have kind of helped you become a healthier version of yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks. Appreciate that. Um, I think the one the one aspect is that I I am just more willing to talk about my own limits and limitations. Um and part of that, I suppose, is age. Um, I just realize I I don't quite have the energy that I used to as a 40-year-old. But another part of that is even emotional uh limits and um just dignifying that conversation of guys, I feel maxed out, or guys, I don't feel at my best, I don't feel really healthy. I've um I've gone to the same spiritual director uh for five years now since my sabbatical. And um actually, interestingly, my wife, it's called soul shepherding, uh, Bill and Christy Gautier, who who are actually both trained therapists, but then years ago met Dallas Willard and and um they were mentored by him and then started soul shepherding. And so it's really more than counseling, it's more uh they would describe it as sacred friendship, uh, where they they come alongside, uh, they listen, they empathize, they might give some wise counsel, but it's actually more helping you to develop spiritual disciplines um so that Jesus can meet you in your in your emotions and and and in your soul. And so I talk about that from the pulpit quite often. You know, I was with my counselor, Bill, and I think just dignifying that for people, because quite often counseling has a stigma attached to it. And so the fact that a pastor, and I'm not saying everyone needs to go, but boy, I believe more people need to go than are going. Um, and it's not always therapy that you need to go to. Sometimes it's pastoral counseling, sometimes it's spiritual direction, and sometimes it is therapy. But but I think just dignifying that and bringing that into um ministry spaces, I think has helped people. And then um I would say just rest. Now, I'm not sure if my team would say I'm good at resting, but I'm certainly better than they're usually the ones to ask, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. Or we think we're doing well, we should probably get someone to confirm or deny that.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I and I, you know, I have uh an executive pastor and um an assistant who are really good at saying, hey, you need to rest. So for instance, after after Easter, my wife and I took off. Uh, we just got back last night, actually. Um, but but one of the things that we've tried to do is to recognize people on our team who need to rest and say, Hey, uh, come and rest with us. Um, you know, that thing of Jesus, come away and rest a while. So sometimes we'll rest by ourselves, but like this last two days, we took a couple with us. Um, they the longest serving pastoral couple on our team. Um, and they've just um lost an adoptive son, the guy who who I buried um uh a month or so ago. And so we we went together, because I just looked and I just said, Man, they haven't grieved well. They haven't had time to grieve. So we went and we work with an orphanage in Mexico and we went and planted an olive tree in his um memory and and just just spent time grieving and celebrating his life. And I just think five years ago I wouldn't have done that. You know, I would have gone, Easter, okay. Now it's members' meeting the Sunday. Carry on the grind. And I think I've started just to go, no, um, that that'll come. We'll get to that. But actually, right now it's a time for the soul, soul soil to life, fellow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's good. I I I resonate with that. I think the longer I've been in ministry and the older I get. I think I said someone recently, the things I'm absolutely sure of are fewer, but I'm more sure of those things.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02And and the things that I was like, we have to do these things and do them this way, I just don't really care that much anymore. It's just because I think I was addicted to being right and having my way, and actually that was malforming me and the people around me. Yeah. Many, many ways. Um so I think you know, there's probably a lot of folks, myself included, that really resonate with this. I need to take better care of myself, I need to live healthier rhythms. What's my pace of life look like? Um, and like I mentioned, I was one of those guys that was I lived on the side of sacrifice and pour yourself out and go, go, go, go, no matter what, and got very crispy as a result. So the pendulum really swung the way for me. Yeah. Um, and like I I need to get my act together because I, you know, I reproduce who I am. Yes. But there also seemed to be some pitfalls to that. Um that's where I when I heard you talk about this, it really my my ears perked up. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I, you know, talking about my spiritual director, there was a moment a few years ago when I he and I had a disagreement in in the middle of one of our sessions. And you know, he was doing what he always does, saying, Alan, you need to slow down, take care of yourself, take care of your soul, et cetera, et cetera. And and I just I responded, Bill, you know, I hear you on that, but actually, I I feel like so many people now that I bump into, certainly in our church, uh on our team, are just saying, well, you know, I can't love others until I first love myself. So I'm going to prioritize self-care for now. And I just said, Bill, this normally means they stop serving, they stop connecting regularly with the Christian community, they become very self-absorbed, even self-indulgent. So I just said, Bill, I'm struggling with how the self-care idea um lines up with Jesus' call to deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me. And and and and he and I, there was this sort of tension in the room. And it was it was interesting. He responded, Alan, I I can. I can see how immature people can abuse that kind of counsel, but you're not that kind of person. You are overly responsible, and I still believe you need to consider giving yourself more self-care. And it was it was a good response, but it started me on this journey of going, well, what is the healthy tension between self-care and self-denial? And um I I stumbled over a really helpful um essay by by John Stott, the inimitable John Stott, who thinks just so clearly, and it was from 30 years ago. So he was just a prophetic thinker in many ways. And he uh he talked about how the church has developed uh the third great commandment. Um, and and and he said that you know, many Christians that so you know uh the two great commandments love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself. And he says, many Christians have developed a third commandment from that, and that is that we can't love others unless we love ourselves. So he just debunked that and said, that is actually bad theology. Even grammatically, he said that you know, Jesus didn't say the first commandment is to love the Lord your God, and the second to love your neighbor, and the third to love yourself. He actually spoke only of the first and second great commandments, and the addition of as yourself really supplies what he he called a practical guide to neighbor love. In other words, you know, the way you love yourself, love your neighbor like that. So it's not a command to love yourself. Uh, he essentially was saying, do to others what you uh what you do to yourself or what you would have them do to you. And so, you know, he just debunked that in a in a helpful way, in a grammatical way, theological way. And and he even just talked about how 2 Timothy 3, that one of the marks of the last days is that people will be lovers of self instead of lovers of God. So of course there's a healthy love of self where we take care of ourselves. God doesn't want us to hate ourselves, God uh doesn't want to want us to have a bad self-image, but there's an unhealthy lover, love of self that is self-absorption, that is self-fish. Um and and sock just said, man, we've got to really be careful um of getting into uh kind of a self-affirmation that debunks self-denial. Um and I I I would just say that that has been a helpful uh framework for me because, especially in California, that is quite therapeutic and does tend to be quite fragile. That more and more, as people discover self-care, their boundaries on their lives become harder and harder, the walls become higher and higher. And it actually can result in isolation and self-absorption. Um, so just to be able to help people, you know, uh, this is a tension to manage, it's not a problem to solve. And there are times when we've just got to call people to say, no, actually, like to follow Jesus, you look at Jesus' life, did he withdraw uh for a time with his disciples? Absolutely. But remember that time in John 6 when he withdrew after, I mean, he was grieving the death of John, he was hungry, he was exhausted, and the crowds followed him there. And it said, Jesus moved with compassion, uh, saw the crowds because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. So actually, he allowed people to invade his margins of self-care. And I think that's the question I would be asking people. As you discover self-care, are you able to allow people uh to invade those margins from time to time?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's really good. Because I even think about as you're describing what's known as the golden rule. Yeah, you know, love others as you love yourself. I think Jesus even upped it. I um a former mentor, he said he actually meant upped it to the platinum rule where he said, Well, actually, it's probably better if you love love others the way I've loved you. Right, right, totally because if if the measure is us, yeah, that always is going to end up in the ditch at some point.
SPEAKER_01Right. No, that's true. That's true. And that is that totally points to self-sacrificial, self-giving love. If it's loving others as Christ has loved us, absolutely. Yeah, so there's a there's a high bar. And I think, you know, if you look at uh we we we starting a series post-Easter called Followers of the Way. And uh just you know, what made the early Christians distinctive as this counter-cultural community? And one of the things that made them distinctive was that they were incredibly sacrificial, you know, um, in in in many of the the early plagues and these sorts of things. It was only Christians who would pray and take care of the dying who were infected. Um, so they had a a self-sacrifice that was that was compelling. Um and so, yeah, I do think that uh the pendulum has swung, as you've said. Uh, I think it was Luther who said, you know, history is like a drunk man that falls off one side of the horse into the ditch and then gets up and falls off the other side. Well, I think we have fallen off the other side. And so, how do we stay on the horse of self-care but also self-denial? And I think the only way is to be in authentic community where people actually have permission to say, hey, you need to slow down. Or otherwise, hey, you need to pick up the pace. You're becoming self-indulgent. And you know what's interesting? I mean, I say this a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but the kinds of people that come to me and say, Oh, you know, I just need to uh take a break from loving others, I need to learn to love myself more. I just don't love myself enough. I mean, often those people, they they are pretty obsessed with themselves. Like they only talk about themselves. And I don't want to make light of the fact that some people really struggle with self-loathing and poor self-images, and and Jesus wants to heal that. But there is such a thing as being so self-absorbed that that and self-obsessive. And, you know, I found one of the just best things to get my eyes off of my my own issues is to serve others, you know, and and often in doing that, um, Jesus deals with my stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the image that comes to mind as you describe that, uh, and I've shared this with folks too in similar situations, is if we're think of yourself as a sponge, yeah, all you do is absorb and absorb and absorb, which is important, but never get wrung out, you actually become really slimy and moldy. Totally. Absolutely. And so, and that's just how I mean you look at the rhythm of Jesus, how he lived. You he what he spent time with the father, then he spent time with his with his friends, and then together they went out to be agents of change for the sake of you know, of of the gospel, you know, the agents through whom the gospel changed things. That's like, hey, let's show the world what it looks like for Jesus to actually be our king. Yeah. Um, and this is a totally different way. So I think all three are essential, but um, I it we do get so self-absorbed in one or the other sometimes, or in the we the like I've seen people like, oh, I just want to just hang out with Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02That's great, but that's not real life. You can actually Jesus wants to hang out with you in the mess.
SPEAKER_01That's true.
SPEAKER_02Not when the lights are right and the music's perfect. Yeah, and and and and he wants you to go out and get rung out, but he wants you, but he also doesn't want you to go out and try and fix the world without him.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02That's gonna be the bad tooth. So it's all those kinds of elements where we think, okay, how do I walk with the Father in the midst of all these things? Yeah. And and live the way of Jesus. I mean, it's that's the that's that cruciform life, and how do we live with that tension? So I recall you actually, and it may be putting you on the spot, you had a slide of a number of tensions that we need to think through to live. Any any of those you would be might be able to share with us?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I you know, I think they're those classic tensions of grace and truth um and um word and spirit. Uh, these are the tensions that we try to live as a church. I think even the tensions of structure and flexibility, um, any healthy church has got has got both. Uh, the tension of community and mission. Um, you know, very often it's it's interesting. We're experiencing uh some some significant growth in the last year, um, probably have grown by about 20%, which has been so, so just surprising and wonderful. Um and um, but it's so interesting how old timers, just I mean, even good, good leaders, will come and say, I just don't recognize all these people. Who are they? You know, and almost resenting these new people that have come uh because they are going to uh disrupt the the warmth of community, you know. And because we have planted uh uh congregations, we're multi-congregation church, there's a tendency to moralize size, you know, to go like, well, this is what a a family communal church will look like and feel like. Um, but actually, mission um always puts pressure on on community. You look at the early church, you know, with 3,000 saved and added in one one um one day. And uh, you know, so during a season like this with Easter where numbers spike, etc., you've got to celebrate that and just say this is a real season of mission. So many visitors now. How do we welcome these visitors into community? Um, and and are we willing to hold that tension of community on mission? And that means that actually our deep friendships, we're willing for them to be interrupted in a sense for the sake of mission. So yeah, I mean, I think those are those are some of the tensions. I think, and you will know this as a vineyard guy, historically, the tension between the now and the not yet, that we are trusting God for his kingdom to break in now with healing and salvation and restoration. But we know that you know it's it's only when Christ uh returns, as Acts 3 says, that he will restore all things. And in Tolkien's words, then everything sad will come untrue. And so we live uh within that tension of uh of a growing kingdom breaking in, but actually not fully come. And um, and I think that's why we have to take care of ourselves, Rick, because uh, you know, until Christ returns, we will live with a broken world and we will we'll live with broken souls, and Christ is at work restoring things, but actually, um, man, we need to we need a rest because this world can beat us up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it sure can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, our time's coming to an end, and I want to honor the time we uh I talked about sharing together. I know you wrote a book last year called Psalms for the Saturated Soul that I think might be really helpful resource for folks. Can you just talk a little bit about that and then um we'll land the plane here?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, yeah, it's interesting you used the the idea analogy of a sponge that needs to be wrung out. Um, the Psalms for the Saturated Soul is really coming from that place. Uh, it focuses on Psalm 42, but not exclusively. But the whole idea of Psalm 42 is um this guy panting as the deer pants for streams of living water. Um, so he is thirsty, and yet he says, These things I remember as I pour out my soul. And, you know, when I first read that, I was like, what is going on here? How come he he's thirsty, but he he's pouring out his soul? What's going on? And it was only as I read Martin Lloyd Jones' um book called Spiritual Depression that it made sense, where it's not that he's empty, he's just full of the wrong stuff. He's saturated like a sponge, and he needs to be wrung out in order to be filled with Jesus' living water. And so, really, it's um it's emotional health on the bottom shelf for people. It's helping people to realize that the psalms are not just the song book of God's people, they are the emotional health book of God's people. Um, and this massive array of different emotions are found there. And um, God is uh revealed as attentive and compassionate. Uh, he keeps track of our sorrows, he catches every tear that we cry in a bottle, and that he restores our soul. Um, and so it's really walking people through not a formula, but actually a process of emptying our souls um through lament, um, through confession, um, through through forgiveness, um, and and then learning as well to listen to our souls, to ask real questions, because so often the presenting emotion is not actually the thing behind the thing, to listen to them and then to speak the word of God to our souls in order that they they might be filled. So, yeah, it's it's been a book that seems to have been helpful. Um, and I think particularly for people beginning uh the journey of emotional health, self-care, it's a it's an easy read. It's about uh two hours, you know, it's 130 pages. And uh people seemingly have found it really helpful. We're just in Thailand and they're translating into Thai, which is which is one wonderful just hearing that it's it's cross cultures and people are connecting with it in in other nations. We fly out to South Africa next month to do a conference around it. And I think people around the world are going, man, I have to find wholeness for my soul. And Jesus is our great shepherd of our souls.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, amen. Yeah, again, the book's called Psalms for the Saturated Soul. And Alan Frau is our guest. You can find it on Amazon, other places you can find books. And so um, we're actually having this conversation the week between right after Easter. Yeah, so um, a lot of pastors and church leaders um are probably on a high. And then as we know how the rhythms work, particularly here in the states, um, it's not gonna be feeling like Easter for a while again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're gonna steal yourself. You've got to guard your heart because next Sunday is not gonna be like last Sunday. It's it's it's really important. I was actually just driving into to the office this morning thinking about that, just going, man, we we celebrate what God did, but but how do we actually now enter a different season that's not necessarily the multitudes where we are able to um take care of the one, you know, and uh and still do it with joy?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because again, we kind of get to the to pass Mother's Day, and then at least where I live, we start going, well, I guess we'll people start cycling in and out, and you're like, where'd everyone go? And right, right, right. Um, so um so with that thought in mind and just living in this tension, um would would you pray for pastors and leaders that would be listening to this day that they could just experience the nearness of the Father in their this season? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, Lord Jesus, we uh we just want to take heed of your words, that you are the vine and we are the branches. And that apart from you we cannot do anything that will bear lasting fruit. But we thank you for your promise that if we abide in you and your words abide in us, that we will bear fruit that lasts. And so I pray for every listener. I ask that your Holy Spirit would help us to abide in you. I pray, Lord, that you would help us to do the the real work of union with you. Well, we pray, Father, that you would heal our union with you. There's so many things that interrupt our union with you, and very often even working for you interrupts our union, and we we repent of trying to work apart from abiding. So I pray for your grace on all of us. And Holy Spirit, I pray that you would lead us to intimacy that produces fruitfulness. I pray that you would help us to be in step with you. Jesus, you said your yoke is easy, your burden is light. I pray that we would be in step with you, knowing when to work, knowing when to sacrifice, and then knowing when to rest and take care of ourselves. I pray that you would help us to manage this tension. We thank you, Jesus, for your model uh of of working hard, of of saying it's my it's it's my food to do the will of the Father. And yet you often withdrew into a solitary place and sometimes even with your disciples. Help us to be interruptible, but Lord help us to have rhythms and boundaries that actually conserve our soul and preserve its life. And thank you so much for Rick and his ministry and the ministry of Van der Blumen. We we just bless it. I pray that it would be from a place of abiding too in Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_02Amen. It's been so good to reconnect. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks, Rick. Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen, we help Christian organizations build their best leadership through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity and helping service.