Welcome to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Heide, Manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Vanderblumen. In today's podcast, William Vanderblumen talks with Dr. John Jackson, president of Jessup University. Prior to joining Jessup University, John served as the co-founder of Thriving Churches International and as a senior leader at Bayside Church. In this conversation, Dr. Jackson shares his heart behind his latest book, Grace Ambassador. He expresses how Christ followers can share the love of Christ and embrace the opportunity to bring heaven to earth daily to those around them. We hope you enjoy the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, hey everybody, welcome to another podcast where we get to introduce you to some of our friends. I think I've told you guys before. My youngest, when we started this podcast, asked what we were doing, and I I told her, and she said, That sounds like you're like Jimmy Fallon for the church. And I'm like, I don't know if that's what I want to be or if you're complimenting me or not, but okay, whatever. So we meet all these wonderful people uh and realize that a lot of people don't know them all. And today, John Jackson is my guest. He's very well known as a president at William Jessup, uh college in California that we've had the pleasure of serving over the years. And uh John, just great to have you here. Thanks for making time.
SPEAKER_02Well, thanks, William. And I don't know if I can attest that you're any Jimmy Fallon or not, but I will say this uh you've been a great uh you and your firm and your your partners have been a great uh servant to the church. Uh, you've been a great servant to higher ed and uh at Jessup, Jessup University, we uh used your services, felt great about them. Just the process and the people were amazing. So I just thank you for what you do, and it's a great opportunity to talk to you today today.
SPEAKER_01Uh you're you're kind. We met, I think, if I remember correctly, it's been a long time, but I think we met in a one-off or direct uh common friend in John Maxwell. Yes. Uh yeah. So, but for those who don't know you or your path and your journey, I'd love for people to hear this because you know, you think, oh, president of a Christian university, uh, you know, how long have you been sitting in the library? 20 years, 30 years? Uh and and your path's a little bit different, isn't it? It's uh it's it's kind of stunning.
SPEAKER_02I'd love for you to share. It is a little scary for my academic friends to have them here that when I was doing my seminary degree, I refused to sit in the library at Fuller Theological Seminary because I had a full-time job in a local church. And I was like, hey, I'll go to the class, I'll listen, and then I'm out of here because I got to get back to church. So, anyway, my journey, uh William, I wanted to be a pro ball player when I was a kid growing up, got to age 15, had a life crisis, said, okay, I'm not good enough to be a pro ball player, so what can I do? And uh prayed, prayed, prayed. Six months' journey, felt God calling me to pastoral ministry. Uh, did that for 35 years, was a denominational executive in my early 30s because God was punishing me for something that I don't recall. And then uh uh planted a church in the middle 1990s and had a great experience, 13 years in northern Nevada, glorious. Uh, uh served with Equip. That's where John Maxwell and I uh became acquainted. In 2003, I wrote a book called Pastor Preneur. I've always been an entrepreneurial guy, always on to the next. I'm telling you all these things, William, because these are not qualifiers to be a college president. So uh in 2011, through a series of circumstances, I became uh, I was gonna say an accidental uh college president, but I'm enough of a Calvinist for your theologically inclined uh listeners. I'm enough of a Calvinist to say it wasn't an accident, but I certainly didn't plan it. Uh so I still think of myself as a pastor, William, but I've always had strong organizational leadership and financial uh capacities. And uh, when I first started about now 13 years ago, people like me never became college presidents. It was people who spent their whole life in academia, but now people like me coming out of pastoral or business or large nonprofits are increasingly becoming college presidents because the world is a pretty tumultuous place these days.
SPEAKER_01Well, it is, and I think everybody uh would agree the old uh may you live in interesting times is not necessarily the greatest proverb. Uh it, but it's particularly interesting for Christian higher education. And I'd love for you to comment on that because you know when we do a search for a Christian college, and then what are you looking for? It's what kind of degree, what was their study in, who'd they do their dissertation under, which is all great. I mean, I'm a I I love scholars' work. I love doing scholar work, but uh you don't hear, find a pastor who is probably a little more entrepreneurial than the normal pastor. You probably probably just don't hear your past. So why is it that uh this is sort of unprecedented time or uncharted waters for Christian higher education?
SPEAKER_02Well, let me say, first of all, just the unique reality of Jessup University was started in 1939 as a Bible college, then became a Christian college, then moved from the Bay Area over here to the Sacramento region. So we serve Northern California, northern Nevada, Central California, southern Oregon, you know, a few hundred miles from our location is our primary audience that we serve. We have online and we have folks from all over. But the reason why this is such a critical time, uh, when I became president, uh, William, I don't think it was as heated as it is now, but the issue of cost, how much does college cost? The value, can you really assure me that when I get a college degree that I'm gonna be able to maximize the value of that? And then the debt. So cost value debt. Uh, we're fortunate at Jessup. Our student graduating debt is one third less than the national average, and we're aiming to make it half the national average. But even so, it's a debt. It's like uh you buy a used car, uh, is what you end up with an average debt at Jessup. And it's hard. The cost, the value, the debt, uh, our economy shifted. That's a challenge for colleges. And then uh, you know this from your work humanities, humanities degrees have really declined in terms of overall participants because people are looking at college today with the cost, questioning the value, wondering about debt, and they're saying, what's my income gonna be when I get out of here? If I'm gonna spend $50,000, $80,000, $200,000 on four years of college, depending on where you go, then what am I gonna end up with? And I have a humanities background, I have a doctorate in education and organizational leadership. So I I appreciate, like you, I appreciate academic, scholastic endeavors, but I was a parent a long time before I was a pastor and a long time before I was a college president. It matters if my child has debt when they graduate from college as to what their income is going to be so they can service that debt.
SPEAKER_01Well, you you I love talking with you, John, because you always bring a fresh perspective. Um, I ask other people the question and they start with changes in the culture, which I'd love to talk about a bit, but just the pure economics of it. And you know, all the the their pendulums, we were talking about this before the show that swing. And it feels like in the church world, as one example of a vertical, I'd love for you to just give me a gut check here. But in the church world, if you look at call it the top 50 largest churches in Protestant US, which isn't necessarily top best, just biggest, just for whatever reason, probably 40% of the people running those churches never went to seminary. Yep. And that would have been unheard of 50 years ago. It would be probably 40% of them don't have their doctorate yet. So there's been a massive swing toward uh trade schools and apprenticeships and away from ivory tower learning in the church world. I don't know if you're seeing that in general as well.
SPEAKER_02Well, let me speak about the church world since I feel like I live like you do. I live with one foot in the church world, one foot in the academic world, and one foot in the economic world. I live in the business community all the time. So I feel like a I'm a man with three flags, not no flags. I got three flags in the church world. Um, I want to say something maybe a little surprising. I believe in the miracle of and like I think there's a there's a benefit to biblical theological foundations. I'm just not convinced, William, that the only place you get that is in a seminary. And I'm sorry for my seminary friends. I just think there's ways you can do disciplined study, and I think that's important, and get the practical experience. So I believe by learning and doing and learning while doing, I think both of those are important. I love apprenticeship and mentorship. You're right, by the way. When I talk to people about large churches, I say it's not really the budget, it's not really the building, it's not really the programs. The number one challenge for every church I've ever been involved with. I'm 61, every church I've been involved with my whole life, number one issue is leadership and how you cultivate leadership, how you grow up and disciple, how you grow up in mentor and apprentice leaders is the singular issue, particularly in larger churches, because the leadership need is larger. So, William, uh, I think what you're seeing is right, not only in, by the way, church, it's also true in business. I just finished a meeting just 10 minutes before coming on the show with some uh IT people, some computer science folks. And they want people to have degrees, but if your degree doesn't certify specific competencies, if you don't have credentials, if you don't have uh certificates that show you have these specific competencies, in addition to your degree, your degree doesn't mean anything to them.
SPEAKER_01My over my shoulder is a couple different degrees. My uh undergrad at Wake Forest was a religion major and a philosophy minor. And I I used to tell people, you know what? If you get a philosophy major, you you know what you spend your career saying. Uh you say, Do you want fries with that? Um I love learning and I love seminary, and I love that, but but you're totally right. The pendulum has shifted. Uh, and and as an aside, one interesting offshoot in that in our work with churches, we're talking about higher education today, but I tell our team, our consultants, um, I didn't I'm pretty sure you don't have to go to seminary to run a church, but to do what we do, I think you probably need some seminary training because we'll end up with a non-denominational church that's on their third pastor, so the founder, then second, then third, and they have no idea what theology drives them. And and like we'll spend more time, it's not about find me the good guy. It's like find me the tissue match that actually because we do have a theological operating system, it's just unearthing that.
SPEAKER_02And uh it's and and we'll and William, man, you're you're just hitting my my buttons here. We're we're in a time in our culture where pragmatism has reigned for so long. Like, I just want to know what works, and and that's good. Like, I'm I'm that way too. I want to know what works. But when people say like we're all theological, like like theology doesn't really matter. We want to know what works. The problem with that is that every pragmatist has a theology. Yes, they might they might not know it, but they have a theology. So, theology, I say this the even book I wrote recently. Uh words matter, truth matters, history matters. So if you understand what your words mean and what truth is and what your history is, that church that's on their third pastor, they've actually you uh you said it perfectly. There's a tissue match that they need to get. It's not just about somebody who's really cool and effective, those are great, but it's cool, effective, and matches our culture. You know the Drucker quote culture eats strategy for breakfast.
SPEAKER_01Totally.
SPEAKER_02Man, oh man, you want to talk about a disaster? Get a mismatch between a pastoral leadership theology and a church context that's existed for 20 years, 30 years.
SPEAKER_01Well, we're seeing it in higher education as well, because you guys who are leading the CCCU colleges and universities, it feels like tell tell me just we'll go here for just a minute, and then I really want to hone in on your latest work, but it feels like there's a separation happening, whereas the culture becomes post-Christian or whatever term you want to use to describe it, uh, some colleges and universities, not I'm not saying good guys, bad guys, because they're good on both sides, but some colleges and universities are kind of building like the only safe bunker you can send your kids so they won't have to deal with this post-Christian culture. Right. And I get that. I got seven kids. I totally understand the thought behind that. Then there are others who are like, all right, we're not gonna sacrifice our beliefs, but somehow we have to engage this new culture. Are you guys dealing with that?
SPEAKER_02And if so, how? Well, you may have forgot to tell your listeners that Jessup University is located in Sacramento, California. California, arguably both the fifth largest economy on the planet and the singular most quote, I use this in quotes, progressive state in the nation. So they say the leading edge is the bleeding edge. And if that's the case, we're bleeding in California. So the cultural issues, William, that you're talking about, oh man, we're living that. And you do kind of have two choices. You're you're right to say we either go to that sort of and we homeschooled, I understand the value of this, but you go to that, I'm gonna protect my kids. We're not gonna expose them to anything. I'm gonna keep them in that safe bubble for college. And uh, and there's some benefit and value to that. Or on the other hand, you say, look, we have got a missional rationale for being, like the reason we exist is to equip transformational leaders for the glory of God. So we're all about saying, all right, you're gonna be in business, you're gonna be in education, you're gonna be in healthcare, you're gonna be in mental health, you're gonna end up being uh somewhere in the fabric of society. How do you shine your light for Jesus? How do you be a how do you be salt? How do you be light? And and I want to just maybe close with this, William. I want you to think about whatever the worst city you can imagine in America today for being a Christian. And then I want you to think about Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, where the church was birthed. And you tell me that it's harder in New York, San Francisco, Las Vegas, Sacramento, where it's harder to be a Christian today than it was in the first century. Come on. Come on. The gospel's been flourishing in rough environments, and it is around the planet today. So even if we are in post-Christian America, I don't mean to preach at you, William, but if even if we're in post-Christian America, this is our moment to actually live out the gospel in authentic ways.
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SPEAKER_01To you know, you can uh train people up to be ambassadors into the world with this uh gospel. And that's sort of the heart of your newest book, isn't it? It is, William.
SPEAKER_02So I wrote this book called Grace Ambassador Bringing Heaven to Earth. And really the the dirty little secret under the covers is I've been carrying this for 20 years, probably said it in different ways. But William, I I am burdened that the church, that the people of God, whether that's higher ed or a local church or parachurch ministry or whatever, that the people of God on the planet be engaged with the culture and bring the love and life of Jesus into everyday settings. That's just the burden of grace ambassador. You can be an ambassador of heaven in your everyday.
SPEAKER_01Wow. How does that play out? Like, give us give us a sneak preview of the book. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So a couple of things. Let me just start by saying I think in the Reformation, so see, I am a I am an academic guy. In the Reformation, 500 years ago, Martin Luther did a really good job waking the church up to the what I call grace received. Salvation's by grace through faith, it's a gift of God. We said back then, William, that we believed in the priesthood of all believers. Everybody has direct access to God, everybody's a priest before God. William, I think we've spent 500 years proving we don't really believe that. We think the sage on the stage, we think the gifted worship leader, the amazing evangelist, those are the people who are really the priests, and we're just everyday folks. So part of what I'm going after in Grace Ambassador is to eliminate two things. Number one, the sacred secular divide. William, life is not sacred and secular. Life is all sacred. When you're taking out the trash, when you're changing the baby's diaper, when you're doing the lawn, when you're at your gym, when you're hanging out with your neighbor, that is sacred space. If you're a follower of Jesus, it's all sacred. And so, number two, I want to stop this clergy-laity divide that we've had. And I and I is an ordained clergy. I am somebody with pieces of paper on the wall. But I'm telling you this every follower of Jesus who loves him, who who knows his name and they know his name, uh, when you walk in your neighborhood, you're walking the dog and you talk to your neighbor, that's a divine moment. You get the opportunity to speak life. I'm not saying you got to quote Bible verses. I'm saying the way you speak, the way you behave, the way you respond, the uh the jerk who works in the warehouse with you, you got an opportunity every day to say, How am I going to respond? What does it mean to love that person with the love of Jesus? And so, in some ways, William, just at a really base level, I'm trying to say, how do you take every day, every hour, every moment, and say, okay, Lord, you and me, we're walking down this road together. I'm seeing my neighbor, don't know where they are spiritually, or I know they're struggling, or I know they're opposed to God. How am I going to be the light of Christ, the love of Jesus in the life of this person in my everyday?
SPEAKER_01And the book gives pretty practical steps toward that reality, right?
SPEAKER_02That's exactly right. I talk about spiritual gifts. Like when you have a spiritual gift, that's a that's a primary pathway to use. I'm all about, you know, life's purpose and direction and that sort of thing. So we talk a little bit about history, but then I get right into what does it mean in the everyday? Um, but I'm gonna just want to say something to your business listeners. Uh, William, if somebody's listening to this and they're in the marketplace, let me just tell you something that I'll often say in front of churches. If you're in the marketplace, you're not a pastor or missionary, let me say this to you. Your vocation is not a curse. Your vocation is a calling. You are an ambassador for Jesus. Whatever vocation you serve in, that's your assignment from heaven. And you carry heaven. The Bible says this, uh, William, and this is where it's it it pays dividends to go to seminary, go to Bible college, or get some good Bible training. The Bible says this in Romans chapter eight. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you if you're a follower of Christ. So you have the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead that can help you deal with that jerk in the next cubicle, that can help you deal with the person who's kind of anti-Christian, can help you deal with a family member who's maybe always digging at you at the family reunions and you dread Thanksgiving every year because they just kind of hammer on you. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives in you. And I talk in the book, Grace Ambassador, about how you can bring heaven to earth, even in those really challenging relationships and circumstances.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll just I I couldn't agree more, and I say this from personal um experience. Oh, you know, I I was a pastor for 15, 16 years. I guess once a pastor, always a pastor, but that's right. That's right. I was uh my my W2 came from churches for 15, 16 years. Yes. Um, and since then I've been the guy that started this weird consulting business that started with churches and schools and then relief organizations, such. And our neighborhood, I haven't moved in 22 years, been in the same half mile radius. And it's fascinating to me to see what conversations I can have now that I'm in the business world, people might not even know I was an occupational pastor versus when I was the pastor and on TV and all those things. Like I have so much more opportunity now to talk to skeptics than I ever did before. And and you may not think that if you're a business leader listening, but you would be shocked at how much more opportunity you have than the professional pastors.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly. And even though I'm a president of a Christian college, when I just say I'm a president of a Christian university or I'm a president of a university, I have doors open in the economic sphere that I never had, even though as a pastor, I always was outgoing, involved with the marketplace, chambers of commerce, city government, always very engaged in those kind of activities with CEOs. But once you say you're a pastor, boy, there's something that goes on. And uh you get the opportunity. I used to figure out when I'm traveling on planes, what do I say to people? I won't say I was a pastor. I'd say I'm in the business of change lives, I'm in the transformation business. I'd figure Some way to not say I'm a power.
SPEAKER_01No, the best. And I totally stole this from my friend Chris Hodges, but he just says it depends on who you're sitting down next to and what you want to get done on the plane and all that. But many times he's just said, I'm in sales. Yes, there you go. Usually he gets them out. And we are. Hey, we sell eternal fire insurance. We sell uh whatever you want to call it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's right. And Chris, Chris is such a great uh leader and such a great example of building a lasting ministry in a context, fruit that now spans generations. Another great leader in our in our country.
SPEAKER_01Well, I uh I'm thankful for your work and the work you're doing at William Jessup. I've seen it up close. I know you guys, uh every Christian college and university went through a pretty amazing season in 2020 and forward, but the it sounds like the enrollments are actually headed toward records now. And uh you're training up more grace ambassadors than never before.
SPEAKER_02Well, Jessup, kind of our tagline, this would be even new since I think the last time we worked together professionally, is uh equipped and known. And we really want to equip young men and women, uh, undergraduate and graduate, online and on ground uh at Jessup to be able to see who God has made them to be and want them to be equipped for that future. We also want them to be known by the Lord, but also by caring faculty, staff. And to me, the synergy between what I do at Jessup and Grace Ambassador is just right there. And uh it's an exciting time, William. So thanks for letting me come and share. And I just would tell you that uh this is actually the greatest day to be alive. Whatever the the challenges are in our cultural milieu right now, this is the greatest time to be alive because God is at work on the planet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think at work, and I I happen to think the work is coming to a close. Yeah, in a good way. In a really good way, but that's a whole nother podcast. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02I'll I'll rejoin you for that conversation.
SPEAKER_01Before I let you go, I noticed uh you know, I look over the books and read, and I saw Margaret Feinberg was one of your endorsers. Tell them, tell me how you know my fellow demon deacon. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um, I tell you, I got exposed to Margaret many, many years ago. I was working, uh, helped establish a thing called the Thrive Conference out here in the on the West Coast at Bayside Church. And I'd come across Margaret's work, I think it was Wonderstruck that was the one that really got me. And and I asked her to come out, and I would just tell you a quick little story. She and Leaf came out and they had their little dog and all that. And and Margaret uh gave a talk that some people didn't like. And I'm just gonna be honest, I might offend some of your listeners. They didn't like it because she was female. That's just the honest truth. Other people, William, just flocked to her because they knew there was a depth there, there was a sincerity there. So, since that moment, that was probably uh maybe 15, 18 years ago. Margaret and I have stayed in touch. She loves Jesus, she just oozes to me uh relationship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And so I I uh we talked recently when she was uh she actually went out to Asbury as the revival was happening and said, I want to be able to be in that atmosphere. And I just love how she chases after God and she walks fervently with him. So uh Margaret and I have a wonderful, kind relationship, and she's just a dear sister in the Lord.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. Well, good to know about Grace Ambassadors. If you're interested in the book, we're gonna put that all in the show notes, including links to Jessup and to John's blog. Um, if you're thinking, Oh, I don't want to go into Occupation X because it's boring. Uh, I don't want to go into this career path because it seems dry. Just follow John around for a little while and you'll see you can be an entrepreneur as a college president. You can be an entrepreneur in any number of ways, and you could be a Grace ambassador uh every single day. So thank thanks so much for being with us today, John. Appreciate you and all you're doing.
SPEAKER_02Appreciate you, and thank you so much. God bless.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderblumen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.