Welcome to the Family Women Literal Podcast. I'm the host providing manager of marketing and business development for Vandal Women For World. And today's podcast, our COO Jennifer Falcon, sits down with Will Clock, our client relationship search for Will shares about his position at the moment and the benefits of using a search room. We hope you enjoyed the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Hi everyone, it's Jen here, and I'm with Will. Will, how are you doing today?
SPEAKER_02Good. Good to be with everyone.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So, Will, we're here to talk about really why to hire Vanderblumen for your search, but I kind of want to take a step back and talk a little bit about your story.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you've been with us now for five months. Is that right? You came on about July. And this was a big move for you guys. You moved down from Virginia.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And how has been your time at Vanderblumen so far?
SPEAKER_02It's been uh it's been great. So, sort of sort of my story coming in here. Uh, I've been in ministry for a number of years leading up to this. Um, went through seminary, uh, pastored, planted a church um through COVID and all of that. Our family was growing. We were a little weary in ministry as far as engaging in that as our full-time job, and we're kind of praying and considering what the Lord might have for us next. Uh, but a uh a thing that I've always loved about ministry leadership is leadership teams. So watching different people with their different giftings be utilized uh to advance the kingdom. And so uh a cool thing that drew me to Vanderblumen is to be able to play a role in helping make teams whole, helping get the right people in the right seats so that churches and organizations can thrive. So that was a draw, and that's been a really fun part of being here.
SPEAKER_01I really um I think what was interesting, one of the things that was interesting is you were talking about being weary in ministry. We have dealt with a lot of pastors lately who are also feeling weary in ministry. We're interviewing a lot of people for positions at Vanderblumen, and that does come to the forefront. Why do you think this is a specific time in the world right now where it does seem like pastors are are feeling more drained than ever?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so uh the obvious answers are are the pandemic and then the subsequent controversies. So I was even reflecting with my wife last night about some of the different sort of groups that lined up in our church and navigating that uh can be really complicated. The workload during that time was really hard. Um, you know, I can see sort of for my season of life, um, you know, I think, you know, William talks a lot about uh this gap in hiring that, you know, there's um kind of the age group after the millennials. What are what's after? What what age what uh what group are you in, Jen?
SPEAKER_01Oh, six stakes for point on my child. So I'm not quite a baby boomer. I think I'm a generation X.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So so we've talked about before that there's a lack of Gen Xers in ministry. So you do have a lot of people that are maybe younger. I've got little kids that are trying to manage a young family, a growing church, and that can be a wearying thing. Yeah. Um, so that's a big part of it. And I don't know what else God's up to, you know, with that, but I know ultimately it's going to be good.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you um you're in a position, you're on our client relations team, and you interact with a lot of churches on a daily basis who are looking to fill positions that pastors may have left because of weariness, may have left due to other issues. Um, what are you seeing right now when you're talking to churches? What are some of the biggest issues that they are dealing with?
SPEAKER_02Yep. So I can list a few. One is just the broad blanket statement that just hiring is hard. Yeah. It's just hard. It's hard to find, um, let alone like the perfect fit, just people kind of a even a group that's even mediocre that could maybe step into the role. I'm I'm just seeing that. And it's not just finding people that's hard, but often maybe it's a senior level position. Doing the search process as a search team is hard. It can have a lot of difficulties and frustrations along the way. Um, you know, that I'm seeing that a lot where churches are struggling that. I'm also seeing, you know, something that saddens me out there right now, you know, William talked about this recently on a podcast, is just the lack of youth pastors that are available. So you can look at any stats on sort of the state of our youth right now, struggling more than ever. And there's fewer people who are eager to engage in that work than ever. Uh, so so that's something that we're seeing right now. Um, those are a couple of things that come to mind.
SPEAKER_01That this is a little bit off track, Will, but I'd be interested in your opinion on why do you think uh we do see a lack of youth pastors? Why do you think that right now it's a time when maybe a lot of people are stepping up to be senior pastors, but when you're looking to fill these youth pastor positions, churches are having a difficult time. They're coming to search firms like us for this.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yep. I think there's a few reasons. One, the same way that um senior pastors had some burnout from the pandemic, youth pastors did on just maybe a little bit of a smaller scale with their youth ministry, same complications, same controversies. They went through that. Another would be the um opportunity to kind of step into a more senior level role is more readily available. There's more opportunities to plant churches, be a campus pastor, uh, those sorts of things. But then maybe even at a baseline, there are a lot of people that just don't see how important and how critical of a calling that is to step in and be, again, not even just a youth pastor in a church, but to shepherd even youth in high schools and kids that are struggling. Uh, I don't know that enough people are sort of sounding the alarm on how important of a work that is right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I've heard a lot of stories lately about people who be who became Christians in high school or in college. And a lot of times it was as a result of maybe a uh sports coach or something, but a lot of times as a result of a youth pastor. So they are so critical in getting people on the on the road to Christendom.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, a question I was going to talk to you about is what type of churches are you seeing? So you talked a little bit about some of the issues the churches are dealing with. We kind of have the reputation at Vanderblumen of only working with large churches. Is that true? What are you seeing? You know, tell me about size, size churches that are reaching out to you these days.
SPEAKER_02Yep. So I can give a a couple examples on that because I have also heard that. Well, Vanderblumen is for the mega church, or, you know, we, you know, sometimes people try to portray us as being very corporate and not understanding sort of smaller grassroots churches. So since my time of being here, uh, I've worked with one of the largest churches in Houston, uh, helping them find a very specific role. I've also had the privilege of being on Zoom calls with tiny churches in Iowa that have 2,000 people in their town, they want more than anything else to reach people and they really need a new senior pastor and they and they want they want help. So from 50 people in Iowa to 10,000 people in Houston, everything in between. If there's a a need on your leadership team, um, you know, we're here to help with that.
SPEAKER_01That's so cool. And then what about the different positions? So since you've been here in the churches that you've worked with, is it mostly senior pastors? Is it mostly youth pastors? Is it kind of a healthy mix?
SPEAKER_02All across the board. We've done a number of senior pastor searches since I've been here, executive level, campus pastors, um, uh worship pastors, uh, youth pastors, a middle school pastor recently came in, even kids ministry. So all across the board. Now, uh, some of those positions that are more pertaining to youth and kids can be a little bit more challenging. But again, that's why people come to us because it's not an easy search. It's not an easy position to fill.
SPEAKER_01And we've recently been breaking into even schools and nonprofits.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01So uh did you work on the Indonesian search? We're doing a search for a school in Indonesia. There's quite a quite a demand for good headmasters of Christian schools, and not a lot of firms out there that are dealing with those positions.
SPEAKER_02We've seen a lot of schools reach out and contact us, uh, you know, since since that time. I'm sure Eric Jensen would love some more Indonesian ones from around the around the world. Uh, so a lot of schools have have contacted us asking for help. A lot of nonprofits. I think of uh, you know, one we're in conversations with a crisis pregnancy center in a large city that needs someone who's gonna be really dynamic for fundraising. Um, and they need this, there's a very specific role, a very specific kind of skill to be able to do it. And we're gonna be able to help this crisis pregnancy center, you know, Lord willing, find find the right person.
SPEAKER_01Something William told me when when I joined about a year ago is that we're really good at the DNA match. So some search firms maybe specialize in different areas, but what Vanderblumen specializes in is Christian companies, Christian churches, but also being able to match that fit. So, like you were talking about the crisis pregnancy center, getting to know exactly what kind of person they're looking for, the culture, the values behind their business, and then to be able to match that. Yeah. Do you have any any experience dealing? Like have you seen that happen yet in any of the searches that you've been working with?
SPEAKER_02Well, I've seen prior to being at Van Der Blumen, just when um in ministry leadership, when the culture is just off between people on a team, um, how that can even split a church, when you have people who sort of have very distinct values that are competing with each other. Uh, so I've seen the damage that can be caused when you don't have a good culture fit. But then I've also seen when you've got everybody that believes the same thing, uh, that's there for a higher calling than just a paycheck, uh, and and are all sort of in unity with one another culturally, how that can just take an organization off its key. And I think William's really good. I think his book on culture, I think every pastor should read that because it really, you know, uh just as there's a quote somewhere along the lines of uh culture eats strategy for breakfast. I think it's a point of just you can have the best strategy in the world. If you don't have a good culture, it's gonna really hurt your organization.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's a really great point.
SPEAKER_00Compensation is a critical component of building a great team and retaining your staff members. Talk to our team today about our customized compensation solutions, or visit Vanderblemen.com slash compensation to learn more.
SPEAKER_01Um, talk a little bit about search teams. So we might have people listening that are part of a search team that are thinking about forming a search team. Who do you normally see? Is there a specific representation, you know, certain number of people? What tends to be effective in in search teams as far as you've seen so far?
SPEAKER_02Yep. So um I'm newer on this, and so I'm not haven't haven't interacted with as many as uh as a William or some of our consultants have. Um, but what you usually see on a search team are a couple of key staff members that are going to be a part of the church or the organization, and then usually a couple members or volun volunteer type type positions that are on there as well. Uh, you usually have someone that has a lot of experience in hiring, which can be very beneficial, but it can also be a bit of a two-edged sword because hiring in a business setting or a corporate setting is very different from hiring in a nonprofit setting or a church setting. And so that can be a bit of a tricky thing where you're trying to bring uh, you know, a square peg to a round hole sometimes with that background. So there's usually someone with a lot of experience with hiring, then sometimes that helps, sometimes that can derail things a little bit. Um, you know, other ways that I've seen search teams get complicated is by having um, well, one, them not being given enough authority to make the decision. They're in there, look at the resumes, trying to make it happen. And you've got other groups that are just sort of handcuffing them from really being able to free to be freed to make their decision. Uh, sometimes it can get derailed by having too many people on there. Um, and then I I've really learned this from William and some of the interactions he's had and just pointing out what can be so helpful for a search team. So a search team is tasked with like the most important decision, especially if it's a senior pastor role. Um, this is more important than your building committee, more important than your website designer. Like you're finding your next senior pastor, and you have people who've never done anything like this before on a team. Having someone that can coach that team along the process, not decide who the next pastor is going to be, but walk with the team through the varying stages of the search can be enormously beneficial because a lot of times it can get derailed with people who've never done it before.
SPEAKER_01That's a really that's a really excellent point. And I think our our consultants do some of that work, the walking alongside. William also has a book on search committees as well. He really is an expert in this field and has really written a lot. Uh, something that's interesting is that when William started the firm 13, 15 years ago, people weren't in the habit of using search firms for church positions. They had, you know, it was popular in the business world, but not in the church world. And now over the past 13 years, it's kind of become more common that churches would think about hiring a search firm. So now it's less a matter for a church of deciding if we're going to use a search firm, as is the decision, which search firm are we going to use? So when people are trying to determine which search firm they should go with, what are some of the things that you tell potential Vanderblumen clients, kind of some information that you give them to help them make their decision and what they should be looking for, maybe what differentiates us?
SPEAKER_02Yep. So the first thing is kind of this broad discussion about the benefit of having a search firm, because again, I'll talk to churches often when they see it can be an expense, it can be a serious cost. Um, but then when I consider, you know, when you designed your church website, how much did you pay for that? You know, when you did a building campaign or even a generosity campaign, how much did you spend on that? Um, and all of these areas, even though they're very important, your building is important, your website is important, it pales in comparison to your senior pastor or your executive pastor. So if you're gonna spend money and bring in people who have a lot of experience to help you build your church building, I would really urge you to consider having some people who have done this a bunch of times before, help you find your senior pastor. So um that that's just kind of the need of doing it. Yes. But then who are you gonna bring in? You know, because that's a question. You know, we always say around here that we think that the competition is healthy and that there's different groups that that seem to do different things pretty well. When I'm talking about Vanderblumen and what sets us apart, uh the first thing that I want to talk about is the level of experience. So we we talk to our clients all the time that this higher process is like you going up Mount Everest and our all we are, you got to climb the mountain. We're the guide, we're the Sherpa, get the new band back. That's that's that's our role. Uh, I would want someone guiding me on something that treacherous, yeah, who has a lot of experience. And there just isn't anyone out there uh that's done as many searches as we have, whether it's a senior pastor search or even a youth ministry search. No one has done more searches than us. And so that's a really important thing to take in mind. The other would be the amount of full-time effort that goes into this. Yeah, searches are hard. Hiring is hard right now. That's why people are considering search firms. The question would be how much full-time dedicated effort are you going to get out of your search group? I've interacted with some where, you know, I was speaking with one uh a number of weeks ago that is uh pastoring a church, helping to teach some classes at a seminary, and then on the side is helping churches fill positions. And so this is one person that's got a lot of uh, you know, plates that they're carrying, and they're also trying to fill your position. What stands out about Vanderblumen is that our team is full-time. So, you know, while we may not be the least expensive option out there, you are getting for the extent of this search a full-time staff, recruiters, consultants, uh, our marketing department. Um, you know, all of that is going to be full-time dedicated to your search, which I think is a big, big area that that makes us stand out from some of the other options.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's great. Uh, you were talking about the the expense that you're doing with the generosity campaign or building campaign and how much more so should you be investing in your you know, your senior leadership. We I think we have a tool on our website called the Bad Hire Calculator.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And that's something that you guys can go to for free, type it in, and it just shows the amount of money that it could cost you if you hire incorrectly.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And William talks about that a lot.
SPEAKER_02It's so good. Well, I remember even one search we did, they needed a worship pastor, and we, you know, kind of had this conversation about the importance of a search firm. So you know, the staff who was really involved in the hiring was bought on board. They they brought it to the rest of the board, they saw the the expense. Absolutely not. There's no way we're doing it. The guy I was interacting with went on the bad hire calculator, entered in how much they've spent on hiring the wrong person over the past 10 years, and it was like, you know, four years of a salary or something like that. Like it was an absurd amount of money when they saw that they said, Yes, please help us find our next worship pastor.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's really neat.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a good tool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is um, what are some of the most popular questions that you get? So when you're talking to a search firm or you're talking to maybe the decision makers that are going to make this decision, what are some of the most common questions that they want to know when they're making this decision?
SPEAKER_02That's a that's a great question. So they often want to know what the process looks like. Uh so you know, that involves the consultant that we send that spends a lot of time there with the team, learning the culture. So not just learning the job description, that's easy, learning the culture and who's gonna be a really good fit for this. Uh so we talk about that. Uh, we talk about the process of all the work that the recruiters are doing, the the just digging and searching and persuading that they're doing to get the very best candidates there. Uh, we talk about our vetting process. Uh, we talk about what it looks like when we've brought candidates to their door and how to help them now, you know, select one and make them a part of the family. Um, and then even the guaranteed. So the process is a big thing uh that that comes up. People often wonder, well, you know, what if we find a a person on our own? How does that, how does that work? And, you know, we try to communicate that it's best for us to be in partnership there and to to work together to to uh consider if that person is the right one, you know, um, for for the job. Um they'll they'll sometimes ask questions about what separates us from from other firms. Um I'm trying to think the timeline, maybe does that. Timeline is a big one. Yeah, that's always contingent on the position and even the location. There's a lot of details that can go into that. Timeline is a is a big uh question. You know, we we often tell people you're probably looking at uh in the neighborhood of three to six months is is is is typical. Some, I mean, we've seen some come within a month, we've seen others go a lot longer because of some complexities in the search. So it can be in that range.
SPEAKER_01I think something else that that differentiates us uh and might be a question that you get too is that we actually send consultants to your church. And some search firms do everything virtually, and it's going to be more difficult for them to do that DNA match or that kind of culture fit. Um, talk about what the consultants bring to the table on these searches.
SPEAKER_02So there's like phases of their life that they bring to the table. The first would be their years of ministry experience. So all of our consultants have vast experience in uh church ministry, school, Christian education, uh uh, even consulting in the nonprofit world. So they've just got that that they're gonna bring to the table to add to the other ministry experience that's already there. But then when you've got somebody who's done dozens of searches before, and maybe, you know, little subtle things, a comment that maybe a pastor's wife made that ended up not working out that just stands out in their mind as they're interacting with families who are considering a job. Those, those sort of uh those things that you hit along the hiring process, uh, they have been through so many different hiring situations. So they're not able to only bring their ministry experience, which is great, they're able to bring their hiring experience, which again, I mean, the most I've met with in terms of a search team member that's done it before is somebody who's done it like once, maybe twice before. And that's very rare. Most people on a search team have never done anything like this. So when you get somebody that's done a hundred searches, that's gonna be a huge benefit. Uh, another important thing that the consultants bring to the table is just the kind of presence that they have along the process. So uh they're gonna be there at the beginning when they gather all of this information they need to do a successful search. They're gonna be engaging along the way in person with a lot of the finalist candidates. When they're down to those ones that they think could be a really good fit, uh, they're not just gonna do that over a Zoom. They're gonna be in person with a lot of those. Uh, and then finally, when they're back with the search team, ready with that slate of candidates, they're gonna be there in person uh walking through those those final um those final individuals to see which one could be hired.
SPEAKER_01It's a very comprehensive process. William always calls it white glove, and I I've seen it and it really is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And we also offer different products. So we don't just offer executive search. I think a lot of people think they're an executive search firm. We do background checks, compensation, talk a little bit about some of the consultation things that we offer.
SPEAKER_02So a big thing is just am I adequately compensating my staff? So uh compensation reports that can be hugely beneficial, especially this time of year, as you're building church budgets, sorting that out is a is a huge benefit. The culture tool is a wonderful way for you to get a sense. We talked earlier about how important your culture is. This is uh almost a thermometer, if you will, a gauge to gauge where are you at? How's your culture doing? Uh, sometimes, you know, a lot of churches uh they know where they are, they know where they want to be, but they're not sure how do I staff to get there. And we're given the amount of staffing that we've done, we're able to kind of come in and see, I see where you want to go. Here's some uh consulting on how you can build your staff team to help you get where you want to be. Um, and then a huge one is succession consulting. This is such a, and William's, I mean, written at length and talked at length about this, but this is such a critical moment in the life of the pastor and the life of the church. So to have someone that can walk you through that very pivotal moment is another one that we we bring to the table as well.
SPEAKER_01In terms of some tools, we talked about the bad hire calculator. We also do offer the culture tool, as you were talking about, background checks, social media checks, you know, some of that basic stuff that you might not know where to go to, feel free to come to us. And even if we don't offer it, we can send you in the right direction. Um, well, you've got a really interesting background. You talked a little bit about how you were a church planter. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you became a Christian?
SPEAKER_02Oh, sure. So I was raised in uh what I describe as just a nominally Catholic household. Anything having to do with God, spirituality, like my least favorite hour that I had to suffer through every week was just that. Oh, we did. We did, yes. And I I hated it. They didn't even have good snacks. Like they were, it was just it was the worst. And so I just kind of Of took on, you know, so so in the story of the prodigal son, you've got the two brothers, you've got the older religious one, but then you've got the younger. I'm sure you were the older religious. Yeah. I was the I was that younger brother, and so that that led me down a path of just rebellious behavior, doing terrible in school, ultimately to some pretty heavy drug use that got me to sort of some of my lowest places in life. It was at that moment that uh my parents heard of a program in the panhandle of Florida. So they sent me to Florida. Not fun, I know you like to go to this one, Roman. So not the fun part of Florida, the panhandle of Florida. Um, it was a military kind of styled uh program that's designed to just destroy all the pride and sort of false arrogance of uh teenagers. Um, but then as as that was kind of ripped out of me, the gospel was presented to me. And so just the the I read this morning Lamentations, that beautiful um uh passage. Lamentations is just surrounded by misery through the whole book, but right in the middle, the the writer Jeremiah says, uh, but this I call to mind, therefore I have hope. The steadfast love of the Lord endures forever, uh, and his faithfulness has no end. And so uh for me, just realizing even though I had gone to such a far low place, the steadfast love of the Lord even met me there and completely changed my life. Changed everything.
SPEAKER_01You know, something so interesting. You just said you read that this morning. You know what Bible passage I was reading this morning? It was the prodigal son story. Oh, yes. That's what I was reading about. Yeah. And and Will, now you're in such a great place. You've got a wonderful, beautiful wife and four beautiful kids. And God's really brought you to the place of abundance.
SPEAKER_02He has. Yeah, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_01So, Will, just to close, if um if anyone listening has further questions, they want to get a hold of you or someone else on the client relations team, how would they go about connecting with you?
SPEAKER_02Yep, hop on the website. Um, you uh if there's a specific need, we'll help you find the person who will answer that specific need. Um, you know, you can always email me, W My Last Name's Clots, K-L-O-T Z at Vanderblumen.com. And I'm kind of with my role, I'm privileged to be all over the country. I'm gonna be in Chicago this week. I'm gonna be all over the place. I would love to visit with you, even um, you know, to set some time up to discuss a search you might have or anything that we offer.
SPEAKER_01Will's always up for going out for coffee, folks. Thank you for your time. Will we appreciate it?
SPEAKER_02All right, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderblumen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.