Welcome to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Idis, manager of marketing and business development here at Vanderblumen. In today's podcast, I get to talk to co-authors Michael Tucker, pastor of Central Ministries at Scottsdale Bible Church, and Tim Kimball, founder and executive director of Grace-Based Family. Tim and Michael talk about their new book, Grace at Work, and they share the importance of treating others the way that God treats you. Tim and Michael share tangible grace-based principles that can be used in your workplace. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Hey everyone, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. I am so excited because I get to talk with Tim Kimmel and Michael Tooker. Um, they are co-authors of their new book, Grace at Work, and we get to talk all about it today. Thank you so much for joining me.
SPEAKER_00Hey, thanks so much for having us, Krista. We're excited to be with you.
SPEAKER_01Of course. Well, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to everyone and kind of let us know your connection to each other and why you co-authored this book?
SPEAKER_00You go first, Michael. Okay, I'm uh Michael Tooker, and uh Tim and I met about almost 20 years ago now. And I can uh give you the story on that here in a minute. But uh by way of maybe quick background, I've spent the last uh nearly 30 years uh in the marketplace in a variety of positions and uh uh then made a major career decision uh to change, kind of shift horses here about six months ago and joined the Scottsdale Bible Church as their pastor of central ministries. And so uh just again excited to be here with you. And uh Tim, why don't you tell them who you are?
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, uh when I went into ministry, the the burden that God put on my heart is that uh that the Christian movement um seemed uh have a bit of a blind spot when it came to God's active applied grace lived out day to day in relationships. Uh, we we understood the role that grace plays in getting us into you know out of our sin and into heaven, but we just kind of left it there at the foot of the cross. And I hope I'm not talking too much Jesus stuff here, but uh, but the the the and and I just said, no, no, no. It's supposed to, it's supposed to wash over us and redefine us and and and and and become the defining feature of how we treat each other. And so that's what I've spent my life doing is is is figuring out what does God's grace look like lived out in in the the the real life um in your in your face world of uh close relationships like marriage and parenting, grandparenting, extended family and church. And then Michael came along and and and God used him to say, what what would this look like if we took this into the marketplace?
SPEAKER_01That's great. And Michael, I believe you were with um the same organization with grace-based families for about four years. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's true. I was there kind of uh in the in the middle of my career. Uh I I had a bit of a detour, which if if if now's a good time, I can kind of give you a view of how Tim and I came to meet. Because quite frankly, the the way we came to meet is the is ultimately became kind of the reason we wrote this book together. So the way we we came together was I was uh at the time, this was back in oh early 2000s, like 2002, three, four, kind of in that range, was working at a Fortune 50 company, climbing through the ranks, um, doing what you're supposed to do, um, particularly as a young man out of graduate school, climbing the corporate ladder, uh, accumulating more responsibility, larger staff, bigger paychecks, all that stuff. And I was a non-believer at the time, uh chasing after kind of the trappings of success and the the trappings of the world, and was was by outward appearances very successful. But uh what was happening kind of behind the scenes in my in my marriage and just in my life was things were just starting this slow kind of meltdown. And uh as I describe it, when Tim and I met, um he was teaching a marriage enrichment class, and and my wife and I stumbled in on the verge of divorce. Marriage was on fire, and it was kind of the dumpster fire, car fire uh variety of fire. And uh shortly after meeting Tim, um, that's when I started learning in this class, like what is God's grace? And who is God just at all? And and what are his desires and expectations for a life well lived as a follower of Christ? And so I came to Christ about six months after meeting Tim. And what I then realized over the the ensuing you know decade or so was just, man, this this God is a powerful God who has just incredible, you know, kind of expectations and hopes and desires for our lives. And uh what I realized was this pursuit of the world, pursuit of success, this chasing of things in the in the workplace, uh it just just kind of um it was just a grind, right? And it just kind of wore me out. Um, and as I was chasing these things and getting more success, as it were, what was happening was I was um growing distant from my wife. I was uh growing distant from my friends, I was abandoning my health. I was just uh kind of singularly focused on on myself and and my own success. And the byproduct of that was uh just a kind of as I describe it in in the book, my plane just fell from the sky. Uh and and what I what I then subsequently learned was, man, I'm not the only person this has happened to. It's it's a tragically common story of people um doing what they think um they're supposed to do in regards to work, and at some point realizing it's it's bankrupt. Um, and that's um, you know, much of it was my own kind of stupid decisions and my own falling, you know, prey to those things. But at the end of the day, I realized, man, this this notion of God's grace and the way Tim has has unpacked a model of applied grace in relationships, had such a radical ability to transform my marriage, transform my relationship with my kids, my friends. And that's when we started to talk about hey, what would this look like in the workplace? Because the workplace is another place full of relationships and they're just um pressure-cooked relationships, and they they really need that injection of God's grace. And so that was kind of how we came to know each other, and and what was the the spark, if you will, to fuel the fire for this book.
SPEAKER_01That's great. I think I think this book is really great because you're right. At the very end of that, you mentioned those pressure-cooked relationships, and there's nothing like working next to someone 40 hours a week to get to see everything, you know. We talked about this. We had our Christmas party last week at Vanderblumen, and we have the spouses come. And it was funny, Jess, someone who sits on our sales team, sits right next to me. And so she could probably talk to my husband, and both of them know every single stress habit, everything watching up close. And I think you're right, like there it takes an added level of grace. So I'm excited to talk about this book and this concept of what it looks like to bring grace to the workplace. Do you all want to dive into that for me?
SPEAKER_03Sure. Sure. You know, um, I can summarize this book in one sentence. And this book is simply about treating the people you work with the way God treats you. That's all it's about. And uh, but that does not come naturally to any of us any more than it comes naturally to us when it comes to our marriage and our kids, because we all have um, you know, a self-protective thing about us and and and our guards up, and we can we can play the game that people dish out to us, we can throw it right back. But God says that's not how I treat you. And I want you to just take this grace that I'm showing to you, and I want you to to take that to work with you. And this is just about taking Jesus' heart to work with you. Let me tell you what it's not about. This book is not a book about how to go to work and evangelize everybody, uh, or invite them to your church and and or or or or start a Bible study. I I suppose there's places for that. This is a book about going to work and loving the people you work with. Here's here's why we need this, because there's a lot of people we work with that are very hard to love, and they don't necessarily love us back. And work can be uh smash-mouthing, cutthroat, and backstabbing, and and and and uh some people are just absolute nightmares and and and and sometimes they're in charge, and yet that's our job. What we find interesting is that how our work arena how much it has in common with our families, and that first of all, we spend the bulk of our time between those two things, either our family or work. And other than our spouse, we don't get to choose any of the people in the picture. They just become the people we're stuck with, one way or the other. But God says, this is exactly where I want my heart to uh to shine through you. And so we um we we said, well, let's let's put this act of grace to work in this book and show people how to get a whole lot more from their job than a paycheck.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Um so let's kind of backtrack and you talk about loving others the way God loves us. So, how do we prioritize our relationship with God? And how does that impact our ability to live these grace-filled lives?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would I would uh maybe start with a couple thoughts. And Tim, I know you've got some great thoughts on this as well. Is uh, you know, what what many people do, particularly let's say a Christian who works in a secular company, uh they compartmentalize, right? And there's a place for God, and that place for God is Sunday. It's not even all day Sunday necessarily. It's let's call it Sunday morning, right? There's a the so there's that place where where God is part of their life.
SPEAKER_03You got to have room for the NFL in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Not if you're in Houston and a Texans fan.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Um, so so I think that's that's that's maybe the the first thought there is that the the the way I would think about your faith and the way Tim and I talk about your faith directly in the book is you know, got God is not somebody that you just you know go worship on Sunday. Um, God should permeate every facet of your life, right? It should be you, you know, God in your marriage, God in your children, God in your work, you know, God in your health. So that effectively, if you if you look through every element of your life through the lens of of God and his son Jesus and what he's done for us, it should transform every facet of your life as opposed to just being a compartment of your life. And so I think that's the big thing. And and and when you talked about that idea of love, Krista, you know, love's a tricky word to use in the workplace. Um, but um uh Tim and I have, well, Tim has a great definition for it, and we talk a whole lot about what does it look like to love the people you work with. So, Tim, why don't you maybe share that definition of uh of love with the listeners?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because it it we use this word so uh broadly that many times it loses its punch, it but it helps if we pin it down. Let the here's the here's the definition that we put forth in the book that we want to bring to work. Love is the commitment of my will to your needs and best interests, regardless of the cost. And that is the cost to me. So I I'm coming to work, and here's whatever my boss, my co-workers, whatever. And and God said, I want you to commit your will to their needs and best interests, regardless of the cost to you, because because it might cost us putting our pride where it belongs, you know, behind us, and putting our personal agendas and putting our uh selfish desires where they belong, behind us, and putting putting uh God's heart out front.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a really important point that that we we we really unpack in the book, Krista, because if I look at my story, and again you go back to why did why did I write this book? I think what many of your listeners right now would say, if they were completely honest with you, they would say, Hey, I have this low grade or high grade discontent as it relates to my job. I I get up every day, I go into work, and I'm I'm trying to get something from my job, and it's not delivering. And I'm I'm trying to get a sense of purpose, a sense of fulfillment. I'm trying to get wealthy, I'm trying to get a sense of identity and a job and a title and you know, all these things, right, that we're trying to extract from it. And the problem is that's all self-centered. That's all focused on the commitment of my will to me and my job and how it can deliver to me. And so the the whole crux of this book is that when you start to say, this my job is not about me and what I can get from it, because that's not what God designed work to be. Instead, it's hey, what can I bring to work? And Tim talked about it's I can bring the active presence of Christ and his grace working through me to serve other people and to love other people. Two things happen when you do that. One is everything around you gets better because when you when you show up to work that way. So when I think about some of my jobs where I've I've had a staff of a couple hundred people or, or you know, a small staff of you know, a dozen or whatever, if I'm serving my staff that way, it's a better culture. It's a better place to work where I'm bringing out the best and everyone around me. And the second thing is if I'm bringing out the best and everyone around me, the byproduct is I have a greater sense of purpose. So that thing that the job could never give me was a sense of purpose, it starts to deliver that to me, not because I'm I'm I'm I'm hijacking it from the job, but because I'm serving that company and those people. And as a byproduct, I start to enjoy a sense of wow, everything around me is better. And that gives me a sense of purpose. And that's that's a big part of what we we unpack in this book is how do you do that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, changing that mindset. I think that's really great. This morning, when I was reading and prepping actually for this podcast, I read one of you wrote that somewhere and I came across it and I like stopped and I grabbed my coworker, Kaylee, my coordinator, and I was like, listen to this. This is so monumental. Because we do, we quickly make it about ourselves and we think, what can we get out? And it's so much more than that. It's what can we put in and what can others get out of our presence being here.
SPEAKER_02Your organization is unique.
SPEAKER_01Therefore, the way you find your next staff member should be unique too. Whether you're a school, nonprofit, family office, or values-based business, we are ready to help serve you. Contact us today to get started. In the book, you mentioned there's like these six characters traits of grace at work. What are those? Just kind of in brief summary. I don't want to give away too much from the book, but I think these are really good things to mention.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we look at these things almost like core muscles, like a six-pack of that that really gives you the strength and the and the and the resilience uh to bring uh God's grace to work. And they are faith, integrity, toys, disciplines, endurance, and courage. And those are all uh muscles that God wants to reinforce us with so that when we walk into the workplace, um we're we're many times there's a lot of compromise being thrown at us. There's situations, there's dialogue, there's conversations, there's there's uh gossip, there's all kinds of toxic junk that's going on around us. And we need to have the kind of strength, the internal strength that comes from God's power and presence in our life to to know how to sift our way through that without being some obnoxious, self-righteous nightmare. Uh you know, because because this is not about going and pushing Jesus on anybody. This is the I mean, sometimes um uh leading with your Christianity at work can can uh that I mean that that can be a big turnoff to not only every everybody there, but sometimes some of the other Christians. What they need to see is people that come to work and they genuinely care about the company, they genuinely care, they work hard, they they're responsible, their word is good, and they they're they're aware of what's going on in the people's lives around them, and they want to be an ally and an asset to the best interests of everybody in their sphere of influence. Well, who's that sound like? It does, by the way, it doesn't necessarily sound like Krista or Tim or Michael and but it sounds exactly like how Jesus was. When he was just going around fishing or just walking around with people and everybody, you know, the people just crowded to him because it was he cared about the people that we he was he was in contact with. Well, why should we be anything less? If he's I mean, if the work he did for us on the cross, uh we have a chance now to go and be that light and that salt in the midst of a work work arena.
SPEAKER_01I think you're hinting on this, but my next question was how Christians should prioritize work within the scope of their life.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think uh I mean there's there's a lot to that, Krista, but I think um for for one, God called us to work, right? I mean, that was part of his original design was you know, in in the garden, he didn't he didn't create man along with a sofa and an Xbox, right? He could he created man and then he appointed them work to do. And he asked us to to to to find joy in that work. And so so I think I think part of it is um we as Christians should we should we should uh you know kind of relish in the fact that we've been created um by our creator to to work. That's part that's part of his design for us and to find joy in that work. And and and it's really it's it's not his creation that was wrong, it was the fall that distorted that. And I think that's where where we where as believers we we have to to appreciate that so much of our views of work get torqued because of the fall, and because of culture, and and what does what does every what is the world around us? What does music say? What does movies say? What do TVs and Netflix and all these streaming services and what does culture say about work? And and there's so many different views. I mean, I mean, there's the view of you should be the workaholic and you should, you know, you know, work like that should be your singular pursuit, and it should be the byproduct should be wealth and and prosperity and um you know extravagance. Uh or then there's the other side of it, which is, well, I shouldn't work, I should find a way to you know retire and have an easy life, you know, at a young age. And so all those views are wrong. But I think one of the things that I that what I would hope for all of your listeners and all of our readers of this book is when they put the book down, one of the things that they would say is and feel and feel really convicted of is when my company looks around and says, Who are the top um workers at our company? They should look at you as a Christian and say, that's one of our best workers. And and why are they a why would we consider them to be one of our best workers? It's it's because of the way they're they're there to serve others and they're people of deep character and they're there to serve other people and they do their jobs with excellence and they find joy in their work, right? That's what we would want people around us to say. But I think a lot of Christians have to say, just like hold up the mirror and do an honest reflection and say, is that how my workplace views me? And I don't think a lot of Christians would be viewed that way in their workplace. And so that's that is part of what we're trying to say is you should be a standout employee at your company if if if you're a Christian and if you're bringing God's active grace to work, you you should be shining in that workplace like no one else.
SPEAKER_01I like that. I think that's really great. Someone pointed out to me the other day, which I had not really thought of, was that work is biblical and work came before the fall, which means it's good. And there was good and perfect work before the fall. And we tend to only think of work after the fall, but it is good and it's very biblical. I want to talk a little bit more tangibles as far as fostering a grace-filled workplace or creating that. How can leaders and how can managers create that kind of workspace?
SPEAKER_03That's a great question. And what you know, you're you're talking about the the the crux of the book. Uh the the the the the center piece of it is uh we we we we we we unpack for everybody a way to create a culture of grace where you work, an atmosphere of grace. Now I might be just a low person on the uh food chain, uh uh on the payroll food chain. And so I don't, I'm I I'm not in a position of influence and boss and all that stuff, but in my little world, I can do it. But if I am an uh you know a supervisor or I am a manager or I'm a VP or I own the company, just think how much you can do that. Well, we show that what that's like. And we basically take grace at four levels. We we unpack uh how how we we can be used by God to use our words and actions to address the three driving inner needs that everybody that we work with have uh inside them. Every one of us have, everybody listening has a need to know that they're secure, that they need to know they're significant, they need to know they're strong or sufficient for the moment they're in. Well, we can use our words and actions, and we show you in the book exactly how that that plays out in grace. The second thing is is in this Really brings the best out of people is you set your fellow workers' hearts free. And there's four wonderful freedoms that God gives you and me in His grace that when we turn around and be vessels for that to others, it changes everything. And that is giving people the freedom to be different. By the way, give me synonyms for that weird, bizarre, strange, goofy, quirky. You know, we we don't make issues that we we sell uh giving the freedom to be different, vulnerable. There's a lot of fragile people. The freedom to be candid, they can tell you what's on their heart, even if it's stuff that's hard to hear, and the freedom to be imperfect. They may they're gonna make some mistakes, but we're gonna get through that. The third level has to do with those four, those six character traits you talked about, and how we we bring this this strength to to to work with us, and then the fourth way grace plays itself out is is where we're aiming our lives as individuals and how that impacts everybody around them. Because, see, if we're a follower of Jesus, if we're follower of the world, then we should be aiming our life at success. Well, if you're aiming your life at success, you're aiming very low. Jesus offers something better in the Bible, and and and and that what we call true greatness, and and Jesus would have defined true greatness, you know, you can take verses he gave, you can come up with something, it's the passionate love for him that shows itself in unquenchable love and concern for the people around you. There's four wonderful qualities of it. Look at this uh humility, gratefulness, generosity, and a servant spirit. Now, you take those four things to work with you, and I guarantee you something. Not only are you gonna make that work uh environment so much better for everybody else, but you're gonna be noticed by the people that decide who's gonna run the show. And the people that I want making the big decisions at work are people that are humble, that they're grateful, they're generous hearted, and they're very servant-hearted. Those are the people I want to, they're gonna trust the they're I I can put the reputation of our business in their hands, my fellow workers in their hands, uh they're I can put the the assets of the business in their hands and know I've got a good person. So there's there's far more in this for the individual that reads the book and practices this than even the people on the receiving end of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and Krista, just to put an exclamation point on on all those things that Tim just shared, right? So if you if if and you asked the question about um culture, and culture is really, I mean, you can you can talk about there's a lot of ingredients into culture. I mean, but but as opposed to it being things like color of the paint, the furniture, the whatever, it's really the culture of a company is the sum total of all the interactions between the people of that company. And what Tim just described is imagine if you came to work, if I come to work as a leader of 200 people and I'm dealing with everyone around me in that way, or I come to work as just an individual contributor, uh, you know, who's a frontline, you know, service worker, let's say, and I treat the people around me in that way. Don't you think the culture of the company is going to be better? Right. And so I so part of what we highlight for our readers of the book is that this is all about kind of relational capital and how do we deal with each other in the workplace. And that that that ingredient, right, is is is God's grace, should be that active ingredient, that catalyst that changes how we deal with everyone in the workplace. But that's ultimately what a culture is, is the sum total of all those relationships and all those interactions between people. Um, and so that's our hope for our readers, is that they they take those four different levels and say, okay, that's the blueprint for how I should treat the people around me.
SPEAKER_03And can I say, can I say, Krista, that this this raises the stock value of a of a of a corporate setting big time? Because right now there's a lot of people, you know, there's a there, there's uh they they they use this terminology of the the the the great uh uh resignation, you know, that a lot of people are are quitting and all. Uh and then there's now there's a new response to the great resignation, and that's the great firing. Okay, you don't really like working here, then fine, you're gone. Well, this is bad for everybody. When you have when you create a culture of grace, you are raising the the the irrelational stock value of your company where the people working there are far more inclined to want to keep working there and to work harder, to work better. It's better for your customers, it's better, it's better for uh your your reputation. Everybody wins with this, and this book unpacks for people. This is kind of the first time it's been able to be unpacked in such a way that said, This is what Jesus Heart looks like. In other words, what what if Jesus actually worked for Vanderblumen? Or what if he worked for pick the name they he worked for ATT or he worked for for uh Google or he worked named these what if he worked there? Do you think those would be better places for all the other people working there? And the answer is of course it would. Now, here's the good news he's saying to us, hey, I don't need to work there because you do, and I'm in you. Just take me with you and watch what happens.
SPEAKER_01That's good. Going even further, I think, down this road, we talk about how grace is, I think the way you phrase it was like the outward focus on meeting other people's needs, um, regardless of the cost to yourself, regardless of that self selfishness aspect. Um, what does that look like in a workplace?
SPEAKER_03Can I give you the definition, another definition of grace, and then Michael can respond to that? We like to say it, grace is giving somebody something they desperately need, but don't necessarily deserve. Now we all need that. And when when we're when we come to work, and that's we're actually on the receiving end of that by somebody else, that has a huge impact on us. And Michael can elaborate on what that looks like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I mean, Krista, the the a really important point that that Tim and I make in the book that I want to make now is workplaces are hard, gritty, messy, tough places. We all know that, right? Because we we all are in them. And whether it's a big company, small company, individual, you know, proprietorship or publicly traded, it makes no difference. It's a collection of humans that come together. And whenever you get humans together, it gets messy, right? And so I like to think about it as you don't need as much grace when everything's running perfectly well between people. You know, if the company's making a lot of money and they're landing new clients and everybody's happy and there's no missed orders or whatever, everyone's happy and there's not a lot of relational tension. But grace is really where you really need it is when things start to get choppy and dicey. And and one of the points we make in our book is that look, grace is not soft, uh, it's not pushover, it's not permissive or licentious. Grace is actually a very um, it's a very hard-nosed thing. Because where grace has to show up, when you think about all those things that Tim described, uh those 17 different facets of it, um imagine, like if I think about my the highlight reel of my career of all the dysfunctionality and that unfold in front of me, it's you know, what did I do to the guy who who literally in a meeting with four people all of a sudden started screaming at one of uh my employees and and just kind of you know, kind of ripping him a new one, so to speak. Well, it was like, hold on, time out. We don't we don't talk to each other that way. Like we're we're gonna stop this meeting right now and we're gonna have a conversation about what's going on between the two of you because we have to pause that can't be like permissible for us to talk to each other this way. Or if I have to to terminate people, um, I I one of the most powerful moments of my career was when I had to terminate a Marine. And as I'm walking him out to the parking lot, he said, Hey, you know what? Um, this is a bad day for me. Uh I'm I gotta go home and tell my wife that I don't have a job. And I don't know how I'm gonna do that. But what I know is of all the people in the company, I'm glad, Michael, that you were the one to have this conversation with me and you were the one to walk me to my car because I know you care for me. Right. And so, so part of what really what this notion of grace is, it's like we got to do hard stuff. And and oftentimes the world, um, they they push those hard things away and don't do them. They brush them under the rug or they do them so poorly, they inflict a just a massive amount of damage on people in their midst. So, as believers, we have to be the ones to wade into the hardest situations. And the way we wade in is just like Christ would wade in. We do the hard work, but we do it well. We do it with grace. And and we and we recognize that you know, um, uh they're but for the grace of God go I. So if I'm confronting somebody who's awful, well, that could be me tomorrow. So so I do that in such a way that they experience the love of Christ that I that I'm kind, I'm merciful, but I'm firm and I'm direct, and I deal with those difficult things that other people are unwilling to deal with.
SPEAKER_01This is so great. Michael and Tim, thank you so much for spending time not only to write this book that I think is going to be so monumental in workplaces, but also just to have this conversation with me. Where can listeners get their hands on this book?
SPEAKER_03There's two ways. They can go to graceatworkbook.com and they can uh they can order it there. And and by the way, this is an interesting book because we're not used to selling it by the case, but now companies are buying it and churches are buying it and staffs and so forth. The other way is go to Amazon and then get the Kindle version, the audio version, or the printed version. So graceatworkbook.com or Amazon.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Thank you so much. And we'll make sure to link all both of those on the show notes for you. Um, thanks again, guys. I really appreciate this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Well, hey, Krista, thank you for having us and thanks for being guest, allowing us to be guests, but also thanks to Vanderblumen for the great work that you do. We're also clients of yours. So thank you for the work that your company does.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderblumen.com, to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcast to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.