In this conversation, Wade shares the heart behind his new course, Performers to Pastors. He shares the importance of how to be in the presence of God without having to be on the platform. And he also shares how worship leaders should embrace their calling of being a worship pastor. We hope you enjoy this conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, hey everybody, thanks for joining us today. Always a pleasure to get into your life a little bit. And I can't tell you how much fun it is to introduce you to my friends. And some of you may remember Wade Joy has been on our program before. He led one of the most phenomenal worship ministries in the world, honestly. I mean, some of the songs that Elevation has put out have been literally written on my heart. And I think that's probably true for a lot of you out there. And uh Wade, I can't thank you enough just for following Pastor Stevens' vision and then using the God-given talents you have to really bless the world through that. Thank you so much. And thanks for being here today.
SPEAKER_03Man, that's that's extremely kind of you, William. Thank you for saying that. And I'm honored to get to chat with you again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Um, guys, I uh Krista by by now you guys have figured out Krista's in charge. She's on the front end bumper. So I don't know when Krista's airing this, but it's kind of funny before the the podcast store, we were talking about it's early January here, and it was how did Christmas go? And I was telling Wade, I always have a little bit of guilt on Christmas Eve because you know, after being a senior pastor for a long time, and I was in a traditional church, so Christmas Eve is a super high holy day, it's where you see people the one time you see them all year. And uh, you know, we do nine, 10 services in a day, and it's all live preaching and no video casting. And I was sitting there, we had to get there probably 30 minutes early because it gets crowded. So we're sitting in our seats, and I'm I'm just thinking I've still got PTSD from this. I'm I know I'm supposed to be worshiping the baby Jesus and the light, came into the world and all that, but like just worried that you're gonna mess up somebody's Christmas, worried it's not gonna go right, worried about every little detail. And I've I literally spent the 30 minutes texting uh pastors that I knew saying, hey man, it's gonna be all right. Doesn't matter if you mess up, Jesus is still born. You're gonna get through this, okay? You're gonna get through this. Don't call me for a new job next week. We don't need to talk yet. You know, just live for a while. It's gonna be okay. And and the funny thing is, I told that to Wade, and I guess Wade, you had some uh somewhat of a congruent experience coming up, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, uh as we record this tonight, I'm going to a night of worship and a live recording for elevation. And this will be the first one that I've experienced on this side of things where I'm not behind the scenes and I'm not helping facilitate it and lead aspects of it. And so, yeah, it feels kind of weird to go. It's probably going to be a little awkward, but I'm excited to cheer on my friends and support uh support them and worship with our church. But yeah, this might be the first one that I really get to take in and enjoy from a different way because I'm not I'm not so stressed.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I mean this sounds bad because I mean the people that get to do that service, I mean, what an honor, right?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01But but at the same time, I'm gonna predict you're gonna feel a little bit guilty that you get to just enjoy it and not have to worry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, I'll feel a little, I'll feel a little bit guilty, but way less stressed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And and it's you know, the reason I bring this conversation up is as you heard in the bumper for the show today, Wade has been spending the last year really studying how uh and and hey, you correct me, Wade, if I get it wrong, but how do we do the thing where we're supposed to lead people up the hill of the Lord and into the presence of God? How do we do that and not fall into the trap of performance? Like, how do we do spiritual uh disciplines? How do we do spiritual maturity? How do we become a pastor to the pastor that's preaching or the people in the chairs? Like that whole balancing act of performer versus pastor is just fascinating. I I you don't want me to be your worship leader, but I I can hold my own preaching. Well, that's yeah, you're theologically you're probably right, but you hadn't heard me sing. So uh but but I do know from preaching, even with preaching where you're trying to divide the word, you are thinking about what's my eye contact like? How long do I pause? Like all those little things. So tell me a little bit about what you're learning of this journey from not becoming a performer but becoming a pastor.
SPEAKER_03Well, even like going off of what we were just talking about, we were kind of joking around, but uh I mean, yes, there were a lot of things when I would have to be on the other side of live recordings that I was stressed about or I was nervous about, but that was my job. That's how I was uh fulfilling the act of ministry because there's nothing wrong with what happens on a stage, obviously. That's right. From a stage, the word of God is preached. From a stage, yeah, people are are led in worship. Powerful ministry happens there. And so that's why I'm excited about times like tonight. But I think in the church today, we think the stage is the only metric of success. And this whole last year, as I've been working with worship leaders and worship teams, a lot of times the question is well, how do I do what elevation has done? How do I write these songs? How do we release these albums? How do we have this Instagram following? And that's that is an anointing that not every church has. Not every church is meant to be a global or national worship platform. And so I think I see so many worship leaders and pastors too, getting so discouraged that they don't have a certain platform or they're not seeing a certain level of success from a stage. And to me, we have taken what we think it's great in the eyes of the world, and we're ignoring what is actually greater, which is the calling to shepherd people, to pastor people, to walk with them in their spiritual rhythms and disciplines. And so what I've tried to do over the last year, and it's come from these own struggles in my heart, of realizing that number one, I've got to hold my heart before the Lord and make sure that I'm rooted in the right identity, that I'm rooted in what success really looks like in the kingdom of God, just serving people. Um, and so when I'm not in alignment there, everything else is out of alignment.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03And so we start there, but then realizing that whether you're a small church or a big church, whether you're releasing albums or not releasing albums, you can have an amazingly successful ministry in the kingdom of God if you're being faithful to actually loving and serving people well, teaching them to love Jesus, to love God, to serve with their gifts. And so, really, that's I want worship leaders to see that yes, those other things are great. And it's awesome to write songs, it's awesome to share your gift on a stage, but the real win is to embrace your calling as a pastor. I think the church has a lot of worship leaders, it needs more worship pastors.
SPEAKER_01That is really good. The church has a lot of worship leaders, it needs more worship pastors, and you know, I think I'm seeing this with preaching. I'd be interested to hear if there's a uh worship equivalent, but in preaching, I I'm predicting that in the next five years or so, you know, the the pandemic sort of accelerated people's acceptance of online church, right? My mother, my mother at a wonderful old first Presbyterian church does online church now. I mean, you I would never have believed that, right? So I I think one of the byproducts of that is now people realize like, I got all these pastors who are afraid to do their sermon prep. Like, I am not as good as Stephen Furtick. And my people can dial him up anytime, and now they know how to. Or I'm not as good as Matt Chandler, or I'm not as good as Kev Rochelle, or I'm not as good as, and what I'm finding is um the advice I'm giving, I think there will be kind of here's how old I am, Wade. Uh Casey Case I'm in the top 40, like, or whoever does top 40. Okay, all right, right. So I think there'll be top 40 preachers online, right? And I think the way God's gonna use preachers in the local context is who will be right in and among the sheep.
SPEAKER_03Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Like who's gonna preach to the six city blocks around your church and who's gonna be in the lives of the people? It's like the old school pastoral gifts are really gonna separate the best from the rest going forward. That's that's what I sense in preaching. I don't know if that's kind of what you're driving at in the in the worship world as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think you know, in the same way, there is no sort of shortage of great worship music today or great worship songs. And so I see so many worship leaders feeling like they have to get on the map with that, rather than saying, no, this where I can win is walking with people.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03When when their sister dies, I can be the one who's with them in the hospital. I can be the one, I can be the one texting them and sending them a voice memo saying, Hey, God, put me on or put you on my heart. I just want to let you know I was praying for you and thinking about you. That's something that the the big names that you hear about and that you follow, they can't do that, but you can and they're not called to it.
SPEAKER_01It's a different calling. And and working with nearly every one of those guys, it's not altogether bless. It can be really lonely. They don't get to enjoy some of the things that are the really sacred parts of pastoring.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. It's it's a different weight and a different mantle to carry because it's what they're anointed and called to do, and there are challenges with that, just like there are blessings with it. And for every worship leader at a church, whether small or large, you have your own unique challenges, you have your own unique um struggles, but you also have your own unique blessings that you get to experience that nobody else will. And I'm afraid we we aren't present in what God actually wants to do among us because we're wishing we were somewhere else all the time.
SPEAKER_01Well, so I've sat with a lot of people as they've died, right, over the years. And I can't tell you many times people said, I'm just now realizing what the important parts of the life were, the moments. They're not just talking about I should have spent more time at church or like when you see that highlight reel before you die, I bet you're gonna be surprised what the highlights were. And and and I I think back, uh last year I did the one-year Bible again for the power of minute time in a row. My 12-year-old said, You're reading that thing again? Like, yeah. And she said, Do you ever learn anything new? Like, oh so I made my prayer for the year. I thought it's good today, Lord. Show me something new in this passage to something I'm nursing. And I got to Leviticus, which is usually where people quit the one-year Bible, and uh, and you know, sacrifice this, sacrifice that. It's like the first nine chapters is kill this, kill that, blood, blood, blood, blood, blood. Well, that's all done with Easter, right? Um, so what's the first task after all the different sacrifices is in the tenth chapter of this? And God showed me this, and I thought, oh, William, here's your life challenge. And it's like the tenth verse of the tenth chapter, somewhere in there. I don't know if street addresses. Uh, but uh it's like, okay, now you priests, you William's paraphrase, you are to discern between what is sacred and what is common. In other words, what's what's the holy moment and what's the waste of time? So as you're thinking through this journey, you know, from I'm just on stage to how do I be pastor, what are some keys for deserving? Oh, here's a moment. I need to drop what I'm doing and latch on to this.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think it starts with the holy moments that you have just between you and the Lord. Um, because I think in ministry, and this isn't just for worship leaders, this is for pastors, this is for a youth pastor, it's for anybody. We can put all of our focus on creating atmospheres for other people to experience God and neglect to be just as intentional about creating those same spaces for ourselves to experience the Lord. So I think it's realizing that God wants to speak to me and to you in the ordinary moments of our day and actually creating, not waiting for those to happen by accident, but creating time and being just as passionate about I need Jesus and I need to worship Jesus privately before I ever step on that stage publicly to do it. And I think when you start there, then the Holy Spirit gives you eyes to see moments uh throughout your day on the weekend where you can actually be a pastor to somebody. I think the other component of that is I think the more prepared you are at the basic competencies of your job, the more present you can be for those interruptions. So if you're going into a weekend, if you're going into a weekend and you're stressed about, oh, I don't know my lyrics, oh, I forgot to tell my production director this, uh, oh, I forgot to communicate this, then you're not going to be in the headspace to realize that your bass player is struggling and something's going on with them. But if you can come in, and I I have a three-part checklist that I that I walk through with people uh in this course I released, but it's you know, going into every weekend, have I prepared my heart for what God um wants to do in me? Do I have a personal word that He's spoken to me going into the weekend? Um, am I prepared to impart something to the team I lead and to the church that if I'm standing on stage? Um and then have I adequately prepared everybody with any communication that relies on me. And I feel like when you've actually, you know, prepared, you've learned your stuff, you've communicated, you've been with the Lord, I think then you can go into a weekend confidently ready for whatever God brings your way. And yes, there's still part you have to let your team know too. Yeah, there's parts of my job where I'm not going to be able to do a one-hour counseling session with you.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03But at least you can be aware enough to say, hey, let's get together on Tuesday and talk about it, or let's stay after today. And so I think the more um one of the things I talk about is uh better planning leads to greater presence. And so I and so I think that sometimes we think we can't be present because of the demands of our job, and it's really because of our undisciplined preparation and communication.
SPEAKER_01That's good. That's good. So it was the uh kind of equivalent, the old saying, luck favors the prepared.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it's very true.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_01Part of the reason I want to do this podcast now is I heard that you've got this course coming out that is actually going to give some tangible steps for people to move from performer to pastor. And I'd love to just hear if you can give us maybe a sneak preview. Like what's that all about?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and even just to reiterate it one more time, you know, moving from performer to pastor doesn't mean you you make the stage a villain and you say, I've got to abandon the stage. It's more about your heart posture. Like when you're there are elements to performance and what you do as a worship leader, but we should never have the heart of a performer. We should have the heart of a pastor on that stage. So this course that I released, or it's I released it in the fall uh and we went through one semester, it's re-releasing here at the end of January. It's called Performer to Pastor, Level Up from Leading Songs to Serving People. And it's helping take worship leaders on a journey of number one, answering the question, uh, what am I pursuing? So am I pursuing chasing a platform or am I carrying a purpose? And so, what's the identity that that God wants me to have as his child? And how do I need to look at what he's called me to do as a worship pastor? What's a win in that role? Uh, then there's a whole set of videos answering the question, who am I producing? And that's actually how to lead people well, to serve people well. And then finally, how is my proactivity is the final module. And that gets to, you know, how do you actually have hard conversations? How do you, and this is where every senior pastor, I think, should get this for their worship leader, because there's a whole video lesson on how do you have a great relationship with your senior pastor? What kind of things do they need from a worship leader? But the the goal is to give people training in areas that I don't see a lot of training for worship leaders. I think there's a lot of great training on how to write songs, how to sing well, how to build a set list. There's a lot of great theological training out there, but I don't see a lot of worship-specific training on how to actually lead your team spiritually and more importantly, lead yourself.
SPEAKER_01And so the course comes out when? Give us the deeds.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, it opens for enrollment January 23rd. It closes January 28th. And then there's three different tiers. You can get just the video only tier, and then there's a uh tier that has group coaching for four months attached to it, and then there's another that has four month individual one-on-one coaching, which is limited to um 10 people. And so, yeah, that that comes out, it'll be available to enroll in for a week, and then it'll open again later in the year.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Well, I'll I'll uh and the website is it's performertopastor.com, or you can just go to you can go to wayjoy.com as well. There's a link to it. We'll send out all those notes, but I gotta ask you like behind the scenes question how many web domains do you own?
SPEAKER_03Uh well, those are my two main ones, but then I have a lot of other ones for all the different misspellings of everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so the healing only comes when you tell the truth. How many, how many domains? Because I I'm in a recovery group for this. I have way too many. I have lifetime platinum status with GoDaddy.
SPEAKER_03I think I probably have around 10.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay, that's not bad. You can quit anytime you want to. That's good. Calling me out. Oh, yeah, yeah. One interesting dude. That guy that did GoDaddy, uh, Bob Parsons. If you're really old and you're listening and you know what a floppy disk is, the very first searchable Bible software ever was Parsons Bible software. And every pastor on the planet had it. The same guy as GoDaddy. Yeah. Isn't that funny? Really? Yeah. Okay. How about some rapid fire questions to close? All right, go for it. All right. Uh, give me a uh not maybe not the most common, but a really common mistake you wish worship leaders would quit making.
SPEAKER_03I I wish they would stop avoiding the hard conversation they need to have. Because most I don't want to say this as a blanket statement, but I would say it's a trend that I see because and it was true of me, is a lot of worship leaders want everyone to like them on the team. And to truly lead and pastor, you have to have hard conversations and challenge people out of love. And that that involves short-term messiness, but it leads to long-term health. And every major problem a worship leader has is a small thing they ignore it at some point. And so I I've seen that over and over and over again in my ministry, and then also this year in the people I've worked with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it shouldn't be hard because you aren't is in worship ministry, you're not dealing with people with fragile egos or diva personalities, so it should be a piece of cake, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Everyone is extremely, extremely humble. No, there's there are a lot of great people that I've worked with and I've met. I just think it's it's a struggle because I think generally creative, artistic people are more sensitive and it's harder for them to be direct.
SPEAKER_01It's a it it I'm convinced everyone's greatest weakness is a shadow side of their greatest strength. And you can't have one without the other. So you just got to hope Jesus redeems it and have the conversation, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh so what do you wish you would have known? At 22 or 3 as a worship leader that you know now.
SPEAKER_03I I wish I knew not to wear those deep v-necks. Those pictures are still around. You can't get them on the internet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, yeah.
SPEAKER_03No, but I uh honestly though, I wish I knew that my greatest joy would be found less in the songs that I led and more in watching the people that I led succeed and walk in their calling. I probably mentioned this the last time I was on because I feel like I say it anytime I talk to anybody. But something Pastor Stephen taught that has always stuck with me is mature ministry is more excited, it's getting more excited about what God does through others than what he does through you. And I struggled with that for a while. But once I was able to see, like, oh, when I see John Sowell lead a song at elevation and knowing that I had a small part in helping him do that, I found so much fulfillment in that. It's almost like you learn to diversify your satisfaction and invest it in others rather than thinking that everything has to be about the songs that I lead or the moment that I have on stage.
SPEAKER_01That's good. And I think I saw I kind of professional stalker, that's sort of what we do. Uh, I think I saw you preached at elevation recently, right?
SPEAKER_03That's right. Uh in late November.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So so last question What in the world is the secret sauce for having such a good relationship with your pastor that after you're on staff, you get asked to preach? What how did give us a couple of hacks for that? Because that's not the norm.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'm very thankful that the Lord allowed that to happen and has allowed given us grace over this last year. Because anytime you leave something that you've been a part of for a long time, it's difficult, it's messy. But Pastor Stephen has been incredibly supportive, um, incredibly gracious this year. I feel like he has been in my corner every step of the way, and Chunks has too, who's um the CFO and helps lead the staff there. And so I think I think they just the maturity that they've had in it. And I think us as a family, realizing that, hey, this is still our church. And yes, it might be awkward uh going to church on a weekend and realizing that when the sermon goes down at our Blakeney campus, I don't have to fix it. Like um, and you know, people asking, hey, why aren't you on staff anymore? And then they always say, Well, what's the real story? Because everybody thinks there's a story beneath the story. So there's always you have to push through some awkwardness, but I think I've loved to see how you can build something new without having to burn down what you left.
SPEAKER_02That's it right there. That's it right there. Say that again. That's the tweet.
SPEAKER_03You can build something new without having to burn down what you left, and so I would say that that applies to both. It applies to the person leaving, and it applies to um the people that are still there and realizing that that's a successful thing to see somebody that grew up in your ministry. It's like a kid who's grown up and you don't want them to stay in the house forever. You want to see them go out and uh and do other things. I mean, some people will be there for for a long time, but I I just think there's always the potential for messiness. But I just I love our church, I love them, and I felt that they loved me too, and there was a commitment to work through that.
SPEAKER_01That's good. Well, I think it's that mindset of I mean, when we do pastoral succession, the really healthy guys are the ones that really are cheering for a better future after they're gone. Then it's kind of like Jesus in the upper room when he lived. I still can't get my mind around. He said, you know, you're gonna do greater things than I ever did. Like, what is that? Right, but that's the dream, you know. So uh it I think it's a model to follow. I know some of you out there are maybe you're winding down what you think is your worship career. And am I gonna be able to stay at my church? I think you should just follow Wade at waitejoy.com or any number of websites that he owns, and uh and and and take a lesson or two because it's he's led something that's a global reach and been able to lead it and still have this fabulous relationship. And please do take a look at performance to pastor. Uh get in there in that course if that's something to be helpful to you. And uh follow Wade on social. I think you'll find it nourishes the soul. Wade, thanks so much for making time for me on short notice. I appreciate it very, very much.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you so much, William. I've enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And God bless you for coming along and listening or watching today. Hope you'll tune in again. If you need show notes or want to know what's coming up, just go to Vandercast.com. You can find everything you need. God bless you, and we'll see you again soon.
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