Welcome to the Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Eileen, Manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Vanderblemen. In today's podcast, I get the family will in Vanderblemen and talk about how retention has changed over the years. We talk about the importance of retention in the workplace and William Shares what you've learned at Vanderblemen about retaining staff and what makes a great workplace. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Hey everyone, thanks for joining us today. We are so excited. I have William here, and we get to talk about retention and culture, some of our favorite things these days. Hi, William.
SPEAKER_02Hey Krista, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_01Doing good. I mean, doing well, can't complain.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. How so are you like in prison or it looks like it doesn't, Mr.
SPEAKER_01Ewell? No, actually, we are doing our new remote days, which I mean fully aware of. So I was telling you when we first got on earlier, it's funny being over Zoom again, now that we're doing more flexibility at the office and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And I'd love to talk a little bit about that. Uh, it's a really interesting time. I don't know that anyone knows what the new normal is or what it'll look like in a year or three years or five years. And uh everybody's walking on eggshells a little bit. So I'd I want to hear what you all who are listening are learning about retaining people. I'd love to share where we have not done well with it, um, just as a from our team, and then also some things we're we're learning that work really well. Um, yeah, because Krista, I don't, you know, this is good, this is bad. You're Krista heads up our marketing team and she's gonna hate me for saying it, but I'd love for this podcast to prevent some listeners from having to hire us to replace employees.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I know you mentioned that earlier, and I was like, well, here we go.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, I mean the whole the whole heart behind the office, and you know this is we really want to see whoever's on Team Jesus, whether that's a church or a Christian school or a Christian nonprofit or a values-based business, whoever that is, to go farther in their mission, faster. And I think if you've got the right people, that helps you go farther and faster. And so if you've already got the right people, we want to we want to do what we can to share with you completely free of charge ways that you might keep them a little longer. Yeah, and I know I think uh before the pandemic in 2018, we did a pretty massive research project, uh really in 17 on what makes a great company culture, what what creates an irresistible workplace? We studied 150 different businesses, churches, nonprofits that were all winning awards for best place to work. And was it so what do they have in common? And one of the most staggering pieces of evidence I found was uh it was from the secular companies that really had no, not even it like a strict code of ethics, but they were pouring money into office culture. And when I'd say why, they'd say, well, because instead of having a 30% churn rate every year, I'm down to a six percent churn rate. I'm keeping 24% of my workforce. Do you know how much it would cost me to get you to come replace 24% of my work? So it's like a financial decision, and and and we dug into this a little bit more and realized retention in general since World War II is shortening. Like there was the days I've got my plastic running watch on, but there are the days where if I'd been at the company 30 years, I'd have the gold watch and that was a cool thing. And there's the traditional uh pension plans that like Big Three Auto had in the roaring time of madmen and all that. All everything from the way we do retirement plans and deferred income, that's changed and given people more mobility. Um, the way we we live, my goodness, the generation that's retiring right now grew up with three TV stations, right? You just pick one of three. Probably if you liked Walter Cronkite, lots of you are Googling who that is. If you like Tom Brokaw, you just stuck with them because that's who you trusted. Christy, you did you grow up with a TV?
SPEAKER_01I was gonna say, and now people don't even use TV, I think. Everybody knows Netflix is everything, and that seems to even be going out already.
SPEAKER_02And it and it's and and what time does that come on?
SPEAKER_01Like anytime you want.
SPEAKER_02Anytime you want. So so it's like you can get mad that retention is shrinking, and it is, don't be mistaken. Or you can just realize, you know, we're in an on-demand world, people have more options, they're used to having options, they're used to moving around, it's not seen as disloyal, it's just seen as hey, it's time to go try something new. And and and I think millennials and Gen Zs get a bad rap for not staying somewhere very long. I think that's it's just a different world. And, you know, so back in 17 and 18, we were already seeing that in the next 10 years, the companies and churches and nonprofits, anybody that's paying staff, the people who can keep their staff a little longer than normal will be ahead financially. They'll also have an easier time recruiting employees when it's time to expand and grow your teams. Oh my goodness, you know, when our culture is at its best, people are bringing their friends saying, My friend wants to work here, and my friend. So I think even before the pandemic, we were seeing this. And now with the pandemic, you know, we you you saw we actually back in the end of 2020 sort of predicted the great resignation before it happened. And it's gonna keep happening. And and I am uh hopelessly optimistic. So I'm gonna hope there's not a big recession in the next year. But if that happens, there'll be turnover and layoffs, and and it'll be more important than ever for you to know who your best people are and to keep them. Uh, because in a time of economic volatility, there's a lot of churning. You might lose a great person. And I would much rather show you a free way to keep a great person than have you have to pay me to find a great person. I'd rather us get hired to find expansion employees for you because you're growing into great things. So that's kind of the heart behind. We were sitting around in our lead team meeting, and Krista's on our lead team, and and uh you said something, and then someone else said something, and I said something, and it led to why don't we do a podcast and just talk about what we're learning?
SPEAKER_01I think that's exactly right. I think we started this conversation with what we are seeing, and you're so good about seeing what's around the corner and being we saw that in 2020, you wrote the Forbes article, and we saw it come to fruition. So I'm I'm excited to have this conversation. I think you hit a really good point of where I was hoping we would go with the new workforce post-COVID, but also the new workforce that's aging up the people in their 20s and 30s. It looks so different than when my parents and my father-in-law have been with the same engineering company since he graduated college. And he's probably getting that gold watch pretty soon. And it just looks different, you know?
SPEAKER_02It will requires a lot more um compassion and a bigger spirit of understanding than ever. Why are you saying this, William? Oh, because this is the first time in the history of the United States there are five generations active in the workforce: Gen Z, Millennials, Xers, Boomers, and a few builders left. It's and and I I guess we're going to alpha after Gen Z. I think that's what's happening. But uh, you know, it it's there are more people who grew up differently because the rate of change has been so accelerated over the last 50 years that it's just going to require older managers saying, All right, I'll try this. And frankly, one of the things you bring to the table, Krista, is you you have an opinion and you have uh the ability to give informed advice, but you always do it in a way that never comes off as the snotty young person that knows everything. That's who I was. When I was 31, the only thing I had going for me when I went to First Press Houston to be the senior pastor was I was 31, so I knew everything. So, so like the retention conversation begins with every generation in the workforce realizing, hey, we're jammed together like never before. And it's probably time for all of us to just get our mind a little bit more around what the other generations have grown up with and are thinking like, so that we can just frankly be kind to one another. I mean, you know, who wants to work with people they can't get along with or don't like?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And I think you have a great point. Earlier, we talked about just the idea of being authentic. I think Vanderbloom and we experienced this as well with COVID and with culture and just kind of the fluctuations of that, of our staff has changed. And we know what it looks like to have to rebuild culture. I'll just hit a little bit on my background. I graduated college at a time that was not a great time to graduate college in the peak of COVID. And luckily, I interned at Vanderblumen, loved it, and then went to the first job that was offered me because I was uncertain of what would happen. And quickly found out within three months that the culture at that company was it was bad. It was not good. And I remember doing a call to you guys and like we couldn't get come back to Vanderblumen faster because I knew the culture that was there. And that's what bought me in at the time. Um, and was the reason that I continue to want to pour into the culture and into the team there is because I know how important that is for me and a place you spend 40 hours every week. You want to enjoy what you do and the people you're around.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. And that cuts both ways. Uh, when you were interning, you added a lot to the culture. And I remember talking to the COO at the time. Um, and I said, How about that? I didn't work with her much, but how about that person that interned? We always heard add value to the culture. And the word I got back from people was, oh no, she just took another job. You can't call her. I'm like, Are you kidding? We're a search firm. Call her. So it goes both ways. When you find somebody that really adds value to the culture, you I don't know that you can put a monetary value on that. Because if it if if you've got that person on your team that other people love being around and is also productive, man, they might be the key to keeping someone a few extra months, maybe even extra year or two. And that gives you more productivity, more momentum. I mean, I've come to believe, and a lot of people have said this over the years, that momentum might be the leader's best friend. And so I think like anything you can do to prevent momentum stopping or to keep momentum going is your number one task as a leader. And when you're losing people and have to replace them and you have to teach the culture and onboard it, it's a momentum killer. So um, yeah, and and I'll tell you coming through COVID, now I'm seeing like there's some really interesting things. Everyone's culture during COVID stunk. It was awful. I mean, we were winning before the pandemic, and really up until about 2018 or 19. We were winning uh best company culture from entrepreneur, sixth best company to work for in Houston, then the third best country, we won best uh office layout, we won best office dog in the city. It got a little crazy, right? Yeah, and and then COVID hits, and there were a lot of factors, but you know, it just wasn't the same. And there were a lot of factors to that. It wasn't just I'm not just blaming the pandemic, but I think anyone who thinks their company culture was great during COVID is not being honest with themselves. And if it was good, it could have been better. And now we're in this weirdo spot where you've got little things you can do to build retention that wouldn't have even been thought of before now. I I'll give you a couple if you'd like.
SPEAKER_01I was just gonna ask, I was like, why don't you share some of that?
SPEAKER_02You know, what leader wants to hear what people are unhappy about, but some of it really does center around giving people a safe place to voice what they really are kind of in a wad over. And so, like for instance, we did um, I'm sure you can include this in the show notes, but the culture tool is a tool that we have that uh in those 150 companies that that we studied, we found eight common areas that they focused on. And they're not rocket science, but it's but it's eight different areas, right? And so we built a free tool and it'll give you a clear read. It gives your team a way to anonymously and easily from an iPhone, not a big clunky 8,000-page report, give you a read on how you're doing it. I think we've had several thousand Christian organizations take this thing now, so you you can see how you're stacking against them, and and then we're even gonna give you a space for people to say little things. Because here in our office, we had our our Vander together or Vander reunion or whatever we call when we bring everybody in, and you know, we gave there was enough time had gone by where people felt like, okay, I really can share like what's going on. We got to the very end of the two days we were together, and Jen, our COO, said, Is there anything else that anyone, you know, just wants to put out there that would improve? And somebody said, Could we get new office chairs? Well, this is a long-standing joke around our office that people break chairs and it's just not like slam them down, but they're just and we're startups. We never well, so Jen just didn't even Jen didn't even look to me. She just said, Yes, we're getting office chairs. And then took it a step further. I never would have okay, fine, order chairs is what I would have done. No, she brought three chairs in, and everybody sat in them for a week, and we voted. And I'm sitting in my my brand new chair that wasn't very expensive. My goodness, people like the chairs. If you give people the space to talk in an anonymous place, or if you create enough of a safe space, they'll tell you little things. You know what? Uh, we we went through cost cutting in 18 and 19, where maybe we were spending too much on things, and so a person in charge of that at the time uh really whittled down our costs, and we got we had a Keurig. I think we'd used enough Keurig pods to raise the earth's temperature by a quarter degree, but oh so so we were gonna get rid of the Keurig, and we got the nasty. Sorry for those of you who love these, but those nasty bun coffee makers that are in every old church in America that know gross, it's like police stations and old churches have that coffee maker, and it's always burned coffee, and it's yeah, well, but it saved money. So we did, and lo and behold, we coming back to the office over the last year, we said, Well, well, what about a coffee service? So here I am. I have a little espresso, and uh maybe that's too through fruit, but it really wasn't too expensive, and the and the just the the energy that's going around that uh is amazing. Now, don't go buy a coffee maker, don't go get chairs, go find out where the easy wins are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's a great point. I think for our team, those were two things. We sit at our desk all day and we have an open office space, and people have made jokes about the chairs, the squeaking, the noise. We have an open office space. So hearing the squeaking all day gets a little bit a lot. And so we sat around and built our own chairs, and it was a blast. We had the best time putting together these new chairs we got to sit in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And and that, you know, I think look for a felt need, but also look for where the workplace really is changing. And if you meet somebody who says, I can tell you exactly how it's changing, run away from them because nobody knows yet. And and if you just Google, like I don't know Forbes, who I write for, they're having a summit on the future of the workforce. They're probably having as much to learn what others are saying as they are to share wisdom because we don't know. Uh, you know, the the the fact that Google called everybody back into the office, is there a more remote product than Google? And yet they're saying everybody needs to come back. I, you know, this whole idea of working from home is that productive or not? Like I think you it's the leader's job, and and I'll I'll go all uh recovering preacher on you, Krista. Sorry. But uh so I I read the one year Bible, and I think you've heard me say this before, but like last year, I've I've done it a number of years. Our uh uh 11-year-old at the time saw me reading my old dog-eared copy. Yes, uh a hardback copy, it's like with paper and stuff, but uh and she said, You're reading that again? And I said, Well, yeah, and she looked at me, and just as honestly as she could say, she said, Um, you ever learn anything new? And and I thought, well, a what a great spiritual head of the house I am. Um, but but b, what a good question. I mean, why read Harry Potter for the 15th time? You already know this. So my prayer for the year was, okay, God, every day just show me one new thing, even if it's a tiny little thing. And this year, I saw the most fascinating thing in Leviticus. Yes, in Leviticus. Uh making my way through Leviticus, and um, you go through the first nine chapters, and all you hear about is what to sacrifice. Well, you need to offer this sacrifice, and you need to offer that sacrifice. You set up the tent for the sacrifice like this, and you dress in these robes for the sacrifice. If they do this kind of sin, then you sacrifice this. If the priest sins and brings guilt on the people, only place it says that. Be careful, priests. Uh then you offer this kind of thing and offer this kind of at the end of the ninth chapter of Leviticus, we get the very first command to the priests, I'd say to the leaders that didn't involve sacrifices. In the tenth chapter of Leviticus, I've never seen it before. God showed me, He said, Now, your job is to distinguish between what is sacred and what is common. And what God showed me there was not just sacred and common, but like what's sacred? Sacred's permanent, it's it's gonna last forever. Common comes and goes. Yeah, it made me just think, and I think this is really true for leaders coming out of the pandemic. Maybe the number one job I have as a leader, as this whole dust settles from the pandemic and the world shifts, maybe my number one job is to determine what are the permanent trends and changes that happen from the pandemic and what are the things that are going to come and go. And how do I build my office in a way that the permanent things don't get lost and the common things don't get made permanent?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And and the maybe the biggest example I know of this is this whole flexible workspace, hybrid workspace, work from home space. You know, I am uh pretty old school, as you well know, about work. I think we were meant to be together. I think that uh I have one preacher friend who says, you know, the idea of doing everything remotely is actually a Gnostic heresy. The Gnostics didn't believe we had to be in the flesh, it could all be just this secret knowledge that's known.
SPEAKER_01I thought that's you're gonna take that one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, if if if if virtual were so great, why didn't Jesus just zoom everything in, right? So I I really think in person makes a big difference. And I I've been slow to change on remote work. And the studies are coming out that show that a whole lot of remote work is not very productive work. So we hit the question of how do we the number one thing people said on their survey was, can we have more flexibility with work? That's what everybody in America is saying. So if your company is saying that, you're not alone. Question is how do you answer it? Uh, by the way, first thing you should ask is does the type of work we do lend itself to remote or high in-person collaboration? We're high in-person collaboration, so it's very difficult to do over Zoom. It may not be true everywhere. Uh, some industries are even more so. I'm yet to see the remote workforce that can assemble a car.
SPEAKER_01Gosh.
SPEAKER_02It didn't happen.
SPEAKER_01My husband's in healthcare and he will never work remote. There's just no possible way.
SPEAKER_02But I do believe what is sacred or permanent is that we're supposed to work together. But what's common and needs to be addressed is a current felt need that may become sacred, but I don't know yet whether it's going to be for real and forever. And so, how do I create something that can be addressing the felt need of our culture to retain employees without marrying myself to something that may not end up being permanent? And so I'm not smart enough to actually figure that out. So I gave our COO that task and she came up with a fabulous idea. And that's why we were going to do this podcast here in the office. Why don't we do it on this Wednesday? Because Krista gets to work from her home. Are we remote from home every Wednesday, Krista?
SPEAKER_01Only if we hit certain goals, which is the perfect way to keep everyone excited about it.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And they're talking about.
SPEAKER_02And there's stretch goals too, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes. You have to work hard for them, but what an accomplishment it is when you do hit them and you do get those. Days. I was talking to my team and we set our goals at the beginning of every single month. Our sales team and marketing team comes alongside each other. We set goals. We know what we have to hit and it's addressed all month long. And if we hit those, we get to celebrate and we get this. And it's been great. We have members on our team because we are so collaborative on marketing where I like it when my team's all together. I like it for ideation. I like talking. I'm also an extrovert. If I was home every day, I would go and sing. Once a week is perfect because I can like get all my busy work done without distractions. But for Adriana, my newer um employee on the team, she's an introvert. And Wednesdays are her days to recharge when we do hit those, which is even extra incentive for her. And so it's just been great to see the flexibility and feel supported from the lead team, but also have goals to work towards. I think efficiency-wise, it's been amazing.
SPEAKER_02Well, and and you leaders, maybe you are already doing this, but what I it dawned on me after Jen, our COO, told me this plan, I thought, oh, so if we do remote Wednesdays for a month and goals don't get hit, well, then it goes away. So it's not a permanent change. I mean, have you ever tried canceling an early worship service? Pastors, you know who I'm talking to. You can't do it, right? Once somebody starts that eight o'clock service, even if it's just Mary and the other women at the tomb early in the morning, you can't cancel that service. Uh it's impossible. It's it you've made something that could be common, permanent. And so what we're trying to do, and we're we're learning as we go, is say, all right, this is a thing right now. We're gonna say very loosely, for a while, we're gonna try this and see how it goes. And it's gonna have to be earned, and it and it's like, you know, it's it's not bought, it's rented, it has to be re-earned every month, and and we'll just see how it goes. And I think it's been pretty well received. I mean, I'm not I'm gonna be the last person to know when the culture's bad because I'm the at the head of the org chart. Uh, and and so by the way, if you're at the top of your org chart and you're like, we have a great culture, don't believe that. The first day, the first day a person is CEO is the last day they hear the truth. And if you don't know that, if you don't believe me, go go do a little soul searching. First day you're seeing your pastor, last day you hear the truth. It's it's just universal. So I'd be the last one to know, but my sense is that things are moving in the right direction. We're measuring, and it feels that way. People are coming up to you, I think, Krista, and saying those kinds of things.
SPEAKER_01Um I'm on the floor every day and I get to hear it. I get to hear the talk that probably doesn't make it all the way out pretty you, but it is, it's going really well. And I think the team's done a good job. It's built also a lot of trust on the team. I've had to trust my team members with it. And we set clear guidelines, of course, in order to manage things, but so far it's gone really well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it I I'll say on the retention side, if you're leading right now, you're leading in a fairly unprecedented time in terms of uh what where momentum and uh uh favor is between employer and employee. Uh, so like you had you had, if you think about the history of work in the US, you had employees with zero rights right before uh labor laws started and unions started. I mean, you had kids working in factories, it was terrible. Uh, there is a place for some government regulation and things. Just go back and look before we had any kind of rules, and you'll see it there is some need for that, right? And then it swung a little bit more where the employees had some rights and it swings back and forth. So it's either the employer is in kind of large and in charge or the employees are right now. We are in a season where employees' rights have more voice and influence than ever. Some of it's social media, some of it, I mean, think about it. Think about it from, and I'm gonna make a lot of people mad right now, Krista. Sorry, we're gonna lose subscribers, but think about the college transfer portal. You get mad, you're not getting enough playing time, you just go to another school. Think about um uh think about any industry where we're concerned that if an employee gets mad, they're gonna write a bad Google review about us, and then no one's gonna come work here. There is you as an employer, you can say, Well, it shouldn't be that way, and you can stomp your foot, or you can wake up and realize actually, that's where we are. It will correct, it always swings back and forth. If you look at the history, you won't get afraid about the future. It's just over here right now, and you need to respond to that without going overboard, without taking things that are common right now in this moment and making them permanent decisions that you can't undo. And for us, two really clear paths for that are trying to find a way where our folks feel like they can share their felt needs in an honest, anonymous way. It leads to little things like coffee, chairs, and and sometimes in an open way where we heard loud and clear, we need to at least try something a little more flexible. So let's build it in a way that incentivizes people to go earn that. And and we don't have it figured out. I mean, I think five years from now, there'll be a whole book written about how everybody thought they knew what they were doing with culture and and it changed. I I don't think the work from home thing is going to stick. I just I there's thousands and thousands of years of human behavior that would have to be rewired because of a virus to make that happen. But I do think things might shift a little bit and they might change a little bit. So uh yeah, yeah. But those are two paths we've seen to trying to find a way to increase retention. You know, before the pandemic, the average tenure of a youth pastor in churches in America was 24 months. And I mean, it takes churches. I'm hearing churches not when they use us, but I'm hearing churches take a year to find a youth pastor, and now they're only staying 18 months. What would happen if you could increase that 24 months to 48, where they take a whole class of high schoolers together and you say, Well, I want them here for 10. No, no, no, no, no, give up on that. Focus on increasing past the norm. And what will happen is momentum will start, which will be your best friend, and they'll bring more people to come work with you and they'll raise up their successor. And so realize that retention is the ballgame. And and I think a lot of that, uh a lot of that is getting to know what your culture is, honestly, your cultural health, what your values are. It's it's a lot of why we wrote the book we wrote out of that research project.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So let's talk about the book just a little bit because we wrote it a few years ago and you've hinted on culture's changing, but there's a lot of things that are still going to remain the same. Culture is so important. It's a huge part of keeping your most valuable asset, which is your people that are working for you. So if there was maybe something that you would include now, if the book was written it's 2022 and now we're a few years past, what would you include in the book?
SPEAKER_02What these either as I get older, I'm getting dumber, or as I get older, I'm realizing, wow, I'm learning more as I go. You know, hopefully it's the latter. But I I think now, I think one of the biggest mistakes I made in building our culture, even when we were winning all these awards. I I made a here's the mistake. Here's my realization culture and fun are not synonyms. I mean, I probably ought to unpack that a little bit. Um we did one best places to work survey when we were winning everything and everybody was bringing friends to work here, and it was just, and we were hockey stick growth, and it you know, it was uh uh kind of like startup days, right? And uh we were small enough that everybody knew everybody. It was just a fun, fun time. Well, so in this best places to work survey, uh you answered all these questions. Then one of the questions was um describe in three words, describe your workplace culture. Three words, not three words from the following list, any three words. I don't even know if they said in the English language, but let's assume English language. There are 155,000 words in the English language, probably more than that. But last I looked, that's where it was. Our people all picked three words, over two-thirds of the office used the word fun as one of their three. And and I thought that's awesome. People like working here, it's irresistible. And yeah, they like working here, it's irresistible. But then I then I just realized later, wouldn't it be a little better if they would say meaningful or fulfilling or I don't even like, I don't even know if it's word, I don't really like it, but impactful is the thing people say, you know, like what wouldn't it be a little better than just fun? And fun, if you study company cultures that go off the rails, they all started fun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you look at we work, that's what we're thinking of.
SPEAKER_02Zendisk fun. I mean, there's so many. It was fun, and then fun can be the playground of the enemy. And it doesn't mean you shouldn't have a fun workplace, but don't make it the baseline. It fun and culture are not synonyms. So if you think culture means buying one more foosball table or doing one more company retreat or a beanbag toss or a sliding board instead of stairs, I mean, yeah, those are all fun, but that's not a synonym for culture. And and I think as as workers in the faith-based world, we should have an advantage and a leg up on this. We should be able to say, oh, that's right. We should be looking for purpose-driven culture, right? Not just fun-driven culture. There, it's true, two out of three Americans hate their job, not just dislike or meh, hate. So I get where people are like, well, let's make it a fun workplace. But as I've studied over and over, I'm seeing some of the places that are the best places to work are really hard places to work and aren't fun. Like MD Anderson Cancer Center. People love working there, but would they describe it as fun? No. It's so leaders, don't get so caught up in you know, Silicon Valley rerun episodes that you think you've got to build some playground to have a culture. You don't. You've got the best purpose in human history, you've got the hope of the world in Jesus Christ and a chance to spread that farther and faster. And the more you lean on that, and the more you you you focus on things that will fulfill your people and not just give them fun, the more I think you're gonna see a workplace where people aren't leaving as quickly. And when they are leaving, they built somebody up. And when they are there, they're bringing friends to come work with us. And basically, you're not having to hire us as much.
SPEAKER_01That's great. Thank you so much, William. And we will include all the links to Culture Wins and the Culture Tool and the show notes on the website so everyone can get access to those. But thanks so much for touching on this topic that really does hit so close to home.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Krista. Good to see you and good to talk to everybody. Hope you'll tune in for the next podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblemen, we help Christian organizations build their best seats through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderblemen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to the podcast to keep up with our newest episodes.