Welcome to the Band of Women Leadership podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Heidegger, Manager of Marketing and Business Development here at Band of Women. And today's podcast are CLO DINAPRESTING SIDE RECLE OUR Director of Executive Recruiting. They discuss the importance of finding the right place to work. Brett shares tangible tips and want to make sure that you are in the right place for the season that's awarding place. We hope you enjoy the conversation.
SPEAKER_02All right. Hi everyone. It's Jennifer here, and Brett's right along with me. And we have the privilege of talking to you today about finding the right place. So, Brett, what does finding the right place just in general mean to you?
SPEAKER_00Well, for me, I think uh there's a couple of things. There's like the obviously like the personal one, like your career and things like that, but there's also um like the calling piece uh that I think is really important because sometimes we can get ahead of where the Lord is leading us. And sometimes I feel like we can get a little behind from where the Lord is leading us. And you know, William was talking about when we had our uh like our group all came together, we had consultants fly in from out of state, and he was talking about like the lamp before our feet, right? And so, like kind of like the step that we're required to take. And I think you know, finding the right place that's a that's a huge element. Um, because so like I said, it's like the personal piece, but also I think like the calling, those have to align.
SPEAKER_02I think I think that makes a ton of sense, Brett. I think it does.
SPEAKER_00Whether that's with schools, whether that's with nonprofits, whether that's with especially with church, all three of those components, those things have to be aligned, or we're we're kind of amiss.
SPEAKER_02So we're a search firm and we help candidates find the right place. Um, but both you and I have actually kind of interesting stories about how God put us in the right place. So you were telling me a little bit about your your kind of experience deciding what you wanted to be. You are you've now recently gotten a promotion at Vanderblum, and you're just a congratulations by the way. Thank you. You're just about to start in your career as an executive search consultant. Sorry. And that's something you wanted for a long time, but that's not where you started.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_02So can you talk a little bit about where you started and how you discern God's calling for your life?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's it's pretty funny because you know, one of the typical questions that gets asked is like, what is you know, your your plan, like your five-year plan? What is your 10-year plan? And I've been in recruitment for three and a half years now, and that's that's kind of a typical question. But personally, I don't love that question. Um, because uh I really think there's a place of like, well, that might be my plan, but is that God's plan? And so that kind of sounds like a very church answer answer, but that's always been something that I've I've believed in. And even when I was in student ministry, like I tried to instill in the students is like just trying to be faithful with what the Lord was leading us to do and and being called to do. And so uh when I started off in college, I wanted to work for the the Astros or the rockets and in uh like sports marketing or media or something like that.
SPEAKER_02It would have been great at that point.
SPEAKER_00That's something I I really thought, like I was like, man, the stars are aligning. This is great. And then I got involved with the paraministry um and the parachurch ministry, and then the Lord really started doing a tug on my heart, and I actually was living in the Houston area that night. I Googled Texas Christian schools, and the Lord led me to Dallas Baptist University, and uh, you know, I surrendered to ministry. And for about seven years in the Houston area, I was doing children's ministry, recreation ministry, sports ministry at fairly large churches, and then all of a sudden, you know, the Lord started doing another tug at my heart. Um, this was about four years ago at this point, and uh, went to my wife and we started having conversations because we we love student ministry. I still love student ministry. I've done you know, speaking engagements and stuff and really enjoyed, you know, still interacting with now people, now my students are like getting married and you know, like graduating from college and stuff. So that's really cool to see. Um, it was like the Lord started doing a tug on my heart, and I actually went to Vanderblumen.com to look and see were there other student ministry opportunities, were there, I don't know, associate ministry opportunities, uh, but nothing was stirring my soul and or stirring Mackie's soul. Yeah, and we came together and we saw a recruiting opportunity at Vanderblumen. If I would have said this is my five-year plan, I would never be here. Um, but we prayed about it and the Lord opened up that opportunity and I dusted off my resume. This was the one place I applied, and I went on Vanderblumen.com and they had the recruiter role and they had the consulting role. Yep, right. And I you're you were more passionate about consulting at that point, and I was really intrigued about the consulting because I love working with churches, I love like that client interaction, and there's ups and downs with anything, just like in ministry. And um, I really view what we do at Vanderblumen as ministry, and and then I looked at the requirements and then I looked at the team page who were consultants, and I was like, I don't have the experience. Um, and so I I came to the realization that uh that probably wasn't the path for me yet, right? And so I applied for the recruiting role, and like I said, Lord opened that door, I became a recruiter and talking about finding the right place. Um, man, what a just a perfect season in our life. And I had the opportunity uh pretty quickly to step into a senior recruiting role and then became the manager of the recruiting team and then the director of the recruiting team. And um, I just think that's that's God at work. I think that's also uh an alignment of passions and and giftings, if you want to call it that. But it's just like um the Lord really worked through that. And I think if I would have just said, ooh, I want that consulting role, I would have been told no in about three days. And I don't know if I would be here.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I think part of your success in your story is the patience factor of it. So you were patient, you know, you felt pulled to the consulting, but you also realized you were self-aware enough to realize maybe that's not what God has for you right now. Maybe that's a maybe that's a down the road thing. So you put yourself in a position to get all of that that kind of undergirding that you would need to eventually be successful in the consulting role. Right. And you didn't just, you know, twiddle your thumbs in the recruiting role, you enjoyed and kind of took advantage of that opportunity to grow your skill set.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been great.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think it's really uh prepped me well into kind of this new season. And we were having kind of like an off-channel conversation of prepping for this. And it's like in the world of recruitment or consulting, we inevitably uh just we have to say no way more than we say yes. Um, but I think those no's are important so that you as a candidate can find your yes. Um, because nothing worse than going through a process, making it to the end, and you're like looking at each other and going, Oh, this wasn't the right fit.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think if you had applied for the consulting position, like you said, you may not have ever come to work for Vanderblumen in another capacity. So you had, I just think that was a very mature decision, and you were trusting the Lord's step that he would get you to eventually where you wanted to be. I it's something that I think is really important that God, God puts passions in us, God, you know, puts a calling in us. And then it's up to God to get us there. So we just have to be obedient. And it's the taking baby steps. Well, you know, let's is this door open? Like Brett was saying a lot of times at Vanderblumen, we have to close the door and say no, but that's just steering people into the direction that God actually has for them. And I I don't remember where I've heard it, but it's you if you're gonna knock down a door, that's not leaving room for God to work. If you trust God, God's gonna open the right door for you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And scripture talks about how it's important for us to keep searching and asking and knocking. Yeah. And scripture also says, you know, I planted Apollos watered, but it's God who gave the growth. Um so I think um if we're just faithful to, you know, plant and water, God's gonna open up the right opportunity, but we can't be stagnant. Yeah, we should be continuing to grow. And one of the things you're always saying as COO is you're like, it's important to have the right people on the right seat of the bus. And and I think in ministry, um, you can almost like like actors, they kind of get like typecasts into roles. Yeah, you can have sometimes these these individuals where it's like, oh, I'm just the student person, or I'm just the children's person. And and I think a lot of times we'll come across candidates who uh maybe they feel like they're on the right bus, but they're in the wrong seat. Or maybe uh they've been on that bus for a long time and they feel like they need to go to a different bus. Um, but I but I think the Holy Spirit um is such a key component. We have to be rooted in in that in our walk uh so that we can hear kind of that direction. Um, and so I think that's just a huge piece because if if it becomes an us thing, it's really easy for us to just look for the next, you know, green pasture. Right. And as a recruiter, I see that unfortunately a lot on resumes where it's uh you know, the shortst after shortst after shortstop. And then it kind of becomes a a victim's mentality of oh, it they did this or they did this or they did this. And and it's it's always looking for the next thing. Um, and and sometimes, you know, we're imperfect people and there are all churches are imperfect, right? Um, but I think we can be a part of the solution as well. And and I just think um that's a huge component of what we're doing is like we have to be rooted and and know where we stand with the Lord and and have that piece. Um, because ultimately I don't think I would have applied to Vanderblumen years ago if I didn't have a piece about applying. Um, and and I think there's a huge difference between, and we were discussing this a couple weeks ago. Uh, I think there's a huge difference between running from something and running to something. And and as a recruiter or as a consultant, you're really trying to get a feel for how passionate are you about this particular role? Uh or is when I ask, what is it about this position that intrigues you? Are you just saying all the bad things about your current position? Um, that's a pretty telling sign of are you just trying to escape this? Are you escaping? Because ministry doesn't wait for anybody. Um, you know, it's not a most churches aren't looking for a tornado of change. Yeah, um, but but they're they're usually wanting a soft breeze of change, you know, they want them to learn the culture, they want them to learn, like, hey, these are kind of the sacred cows, these are the things that we have going on really well. Um, but eventually they turn to you and say, All right, now cast vision.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so if you're running from something, it's really hard for you to gear up in that season and what happens shortstop after shortstop after shortstop.
SPEAKER_02That's really wise, Brett. I think I think that's a lot of good. I was telling Brett earlier that he's got nuggets of gold here and this type there. I wanted to talk a little bit about from the perspective of the manager or the senior pastor or human resources. So when I started at Vanderbloom, and it was in January, and now we're here in the middle of October. It's taken about 10 months to make sure the right people are on the bus and the wrong people are off the bus and the right people are on the bus in the right seats. So, from a manager's perspective or from a leader's perspective, it's also your responsibility to help your team find the right place. You can, Brett was talking earlier about cast vision. You can cast vision and you can figure out people's strengths. I think it's important to talk to each of your employees frequently, have one-on-ones, figure out kind of what God is doing in their life and what their passions are, because then you can say, okay, this is a puzzle, we're this is the puzzle of Vanderblumen. We need a piece that fits kind of like this. Okay, who in the company has a history and a passion and a calling that could potentially fit into this type of role? So, yes, as an as a candidate or as an employee, you need to find the right place, but it's also incumbent upon leaders and managers in the church to be kind of that shepherd to people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think especially in like Western Christianity, we really value vision casting and like the big personality, the teacher, preacher. But you're talking about that that shepherd. I think one-on-ones are huge because one that that alleviates usually being blindsided because you're able to have those conversations, and dialogue going. Yeah, because it's nothing hurts more than just like a quick exit, I think. Uh, because especially in the church world, that means either there's volunteers that have to pick up the slack, uh, usually, or if it's a smaller ministry, that that pastor has to, you know, spin another plate and eventually they're they're spinning plates on their toes. Um, and that can lead to burnout. And so I think being connected within the community is huge too. And uh it kind of goes back to me with those one-on-ones. Yeah. Um, I think that shepherding element, it's so easy to go, well, I need to spend more time prepping for my sermon. I think it's so easy to go, well, I need to focus on on um, you know, these great leaders. Usually a squeaky wheel gets the oil, right? Um, but I think the one-on-ones, the the meeting with your leadership team, and and I don't think one-on-ones have to be the same structure every time. I think as leaders, we're called to have um higher EQ to kind of gauge the room and figure out you know, how can I meet this person where they're at? Um, because sometimes I have one-on-ones and we're just talking about search, you know, because that's what we need to do. That's the stressor. Other times a one-on-one is like, okay, tell me how how are you doing? And maybe that's the first 20 minutes and we talk about search for the the last 10, or maybe we schedule another meeting to talk about our searches. But it's like, I think it's important as a leader to meet uh whoever's on your team where they're at, because that allows them to know they're heard. It stings when you don't feel like you're heard. Um, everyone's voice matters and and they need to be heard, and that one-on-one space is where it's at. I don't think as leaders we can check off. Well, we did a staff meeting. Yep. Um, that a staff meeting is vital and important for some things, but you can't do everything. Just like in the church world, you can't say, Well, I put it in the bulletin. Well, you got to put it on Facebook and on Instagram and on Snapchat and on the website and be real and like all of the things, right? Like you have you have to blast it out on everything. Um, or or you miss somebody and they go, Well, I didn't see it.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think kind of you know, tangentially related to this is Vanderbloom is really good at being proactive. I think some churches struggle with being reactive. So the things Brett's talking about here, if your church is kind of trying to pick up the pieces afterward, it's gonna be less successful than being proactive ahead of time. So these one-on-ones, these conversations, really knowing your team and really knowing the direction that your church is headed is gonna allow you to plan for the future and to prepare for things that could potentially go wrong. So you kind of see five, you know, not necessarily five years, but a year, six months, five years down the road. And then that kind of helps you figure out what the right place is for the people on your team or figure out the holes that you're gonna need to start looking for the right people to fill in those holes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because uh it all goes back to finding the right place. It does. And uh leadership at the top has to be strong. And in ministry, I really think you're either heading into a storm, you're in the middle of a storm, or you're heading out of a storm. And so you got to be geared up, you got to be rooted in who you are in the Lord, and you have to be able to look to your left and your right and say, this is who I'm going into battle with.
SPEAKER_01When your team isn't whole, it disrupts your mission. We have staffed over 2,500 missions of faith. Build your best team through our customized executive search. Go to Vanderbloemen.com slash get started to talk with our team today.
SPEAKER_02You just keep inspiring me, right? You keep inspiring me.
SPEAKER_00I don't know about that.
SPEAKER_02So something else I wanted to talk about is something that I say frequently, which is life is lived forward but understood backward. So I'm in my mid-40s, doesn't it specifically matter the actual age, but I'm in my mid-40s, and I went through quite a long period where I wasn't sure what God was calling me to do. Interestingly, when I was really young, I this is like eight or nine years old, I started my own little baby company, and it wasn't anything really that great, but I felt God saying, I want you to be in business and I want you to be in international business, and I want you to do something with the church in business. And I had no idea what that was. So I kind of wandered around for a while trying to figure out what that was. And now it's just interesting because I do feel like I'm in my right place right now. I started at Vanderblumen, like I said, in January, and I was trying to decide in December what should I do next? And what I felt was something that serves the church, something in business. The same thing that I felt, you know, 30 some years ago. And I literally typed in Christian consulting. I had never heard of Vanderblumen before, which everyone on the podcast is going to be surprised about. But Christian consulting, Vanderblumen came up and a vice president of strategy position came up. And so that's just a matter of, you know, I now looking backward, everything lined up to get me prepared for this position. And if if you're not obedient along the way, you might miss, you might miss hearing what the Lord has for you. But every step along the way, you're gaining the skills you're going to need to be where God wants you to be eventually. And whatever I'm doing right now, same thing. I'm gaining the skill set here that's going to be propelling me to the next thing that God has for me. It's about being obedient and trusting.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. I had uh several internships at churches, like in college. Yeah. And uh there were a few internships where I was like, man, I really learned what I would like to do. And then I had a couple of internships where it's like, I learned what I wouldn't like to do, or how I wouldn't like to lead, or how I wouldn't like to interact with my volunteers. But I think both were helpful and important and vital in many ways for the success of my ministry, you know, and kind of a peek behind the curtain of Vanderbloomen a little bit as we're talking about like you know, finding the right place. Uh, we do a lot of like background work, we're working with the churches. I was out this weekend um in the Pacific Northwest and I was at a church all day on Sunday, and then a lot of Monday, and we were meeting with the staff members, we were meeting with uh the elders of the church, we were meeting with uh the committee, we went to both services, we went to the campuses. Um, but I think all of those things are important um because ultimately we're not just copy and pasting search. Uh we are trying to figure out, you know, what makes your church unique, what makes your school unique, what makes you say DNA a lot. Yeah, that that DNA. Like I want to get a finger on the pulse of that church because if I don't have that, I'm gonna be very lost when I'm assessing candidates. Um, and so I I want to be able to confidently say yes or no based on all the criteria that I've I know because I did my work and you know, we prayerfully went through those meetings and we're prayerfully staying in contact with them through the process. Um, but but our no is not uh an indictment on the candidate. Um, it is our in-depth knowledge and work with the client that we know this is what they're looking for, but also this is what they need in this season, because uh we want to know you know what works at for that search at that time, because maybe what they needed pre-COVID looked drastically different, but maybe they need a different type of leader. Um, and so that's what we're trying to tap into as we're assessing candidates. And so I think it's important for candidates to hear as they're looking for their right place, their right next step, is that like a no from us isn't a no from us. We're trying to look through the lens of what the church has requested or the client has requested from us. And our no is to help them find their next yes. Because if if we went months and months and months through this process and put them before the client, but we know that they're not a fit, that's actually a disservice to the candidate, just as it is as much as it is the client. Um, and maybe them going through that trail and getting their hopes up, and you know, maybe they were you start looking at housing, you start looking at school districts and all those things, all that to be like, oh, well, I could have told you that months ago. And so nose can sting, but nose helps you find your next yes. And I think that's the the huge piece that I want to communicate on this.
SPEAKER_02I love that. And I love that from the candidate side, what you've what you just expressed from the church side is that Vanderblumen's really good at getting that clarity for you. So, in order to find the right place at your church, if you're on a search committee, you need to be really clear about what you're looking for. And maybe there's a lot of different opinions, maybe there's a lot of different history with the church, but something that our consultants are excellent at is really pinpointing what are the main things that you need and what's gonna work in your church. If you start hiring for a position, you don't exactly know what the position is gonna look like, you don't exactly know what the role is gonna be. It's gonna be really hard for us or for any candidate to realize if they're gonna be a good fit for you.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. I think that's smart.
SPEAKER_00No, one of the like the great pieces of what we do is like this isn't like a side passion for us at Vanderblumen. Like this isn't a hobby, like a like, here's what I actually do, and then oh yeah, I kind of do this Vanderblumen recruiting consulting stuff on the side. But it's like this is what we do full time, and like this is this is our passion and this is our calling, and and we're prayerfully saying we're we are rooted, we are are passionate about what we are doing, and it aligns with where the Lord has led us to be, and we're in this season, and we're gonna connect with the client, we're gonna connect with the candidate, and we're gonna see uh, does this work? We're essentially building a bridge on two sides of the body of water, and we're meeting in the middle and we're going, does this work? And sometimes it works, and sometimes we need to keep working at it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Brett, you should have a podcast only doing analogies because that is that's a really good, or I don't know what the word for that is, but that's great.
SPEAKER_00I'm just full of analogies.
SPEAKER_02You're just full of it. Okay. So a couple more things I wanted to mention is so I told you that there was a period. my life where I wasn't sure what to do. For advice to some people who are going through that place, this is some advice that I've learned. So the first thing is do the last thing you clearly heard God tell you to do. So if God told you to go to DBU or if wherever God whatever God told you to do is the last thing, keep doing that until God gives you different direction. So that's one piece of advice. Another piece of advice is to try something. So even if it's just a matter of dipping your toe into it, we have um we have a girl here that started as an intern and just to close the loop she actually was someone that was in your student ministry when you were a youth pastor, right?
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_02And she wasn't sure what she wanted to do next. So she just dipped her toe in and then we gave her a couple different things to try and we saw what she was really successful at and what she was passionate about. And now she's in a full-time role succeeding greatly because all she all she had to do was dip her toe in and then we were able to help her find you know the right place for her. So try something don't try nothing. And then the other point I wanted to make is that other people can't tell you what your calling is. Other people can't say well you know Brett I think you'd be a great weatherman. Why don't you go try that? Although you may be a great weatherman if that's not the desire that God placed in your heart that's not going to be where you see success. So trusting your intuition trusting what the Holy Spirit is leading you to do and just really believing that God's going to get you to where you're supposed to be if you trust that's that's kind of what I'm going to say I think that's on the money. Excellent. So thank you very much for joining us today and we hope you all will find the right place.
SPEAKER_01Bye y'all thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring succession compensation and diversity consulting services. Visit our website VanderBloomen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblumen Leadership podcast wherever you listen to podcast to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening