Welcome to the Vanderblomen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Denitick, Senior Marketing Coordinator here at Vanderblomen. In today's podcast, I get to talk with Lee Kreicher, author, former pastor, and founder of Future Forward Churches. Pastoral transitions are inevitable for every church. They can often result in major setbacks, which is why it's vital to plan for succession. In this conversation, Lee shares about his newest book, Seamless Pastoral Transitions, and explains six leadership transition pitfalls to avoid. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Thanks for joining us today. I'm so excited because I get to talk with Lee Kreitcher. He just wrote his newest book, Seamless Pastoral Transitions. And I'm just excited to have you here. Thanks, Lee.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Krista. I'm honored to be with you.
SPEAKER_00Of course. Let's talk about your new book. I actually have my copy right here. I was talking earlier with you about how your last book is actually on the coffee table in our office. And I'm sure this one will get added to the pile on the coffee table next.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the last book I wrote for a new generation was really about how a church can turn around from being an aging, dying church to a multi-generational church. And we lived it at Amplify Church where I served. But then there comes a time when you need to hand that church off to a next generation leader. And that's really what Seamless Pastoral Transition is all about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, let's dig a little bit more into that because we are talking about pastoral transition, something that we at Vanderblumen are so passionate about. So let's talk about kind of your background and then an introduction of how what led you to writing this book.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've had a unique uh journey. Uh in my 20s, I was a pastor. In my a good portion of my 30s and 40s, I was a leadership development coach with a couple of different uh international leadership development firms. And there I learned a lot about change leadership and also about succession planning. But then in my 50s, I went back into ministry. And so during the 15 years I was there, uh our church turned around from, as I was mentioning, an aging dying church of about 150 to a healthy multi-generational church of about 2000. And so what happened is as a result of this combination of uh church, the living in the church world, working in the corporate world, I just had this passion about what it was to lead change and what it was to hand off to a next generation leader when it's the right time. And so that's really what was the spark for what this is all about. I really believe in leadership transition and the principles in the book are applicable to whether it's a corporate setting or a not-for-profit setting. But I'm passionate, particularly obviously, for a church setting because of the Christ-centered mission that we have.
SPEAKER_00I love that. That takes a bold person to step into change within a church because we always joke how much churches love change around here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I remember uh I was living in Atlanta when I got the call to move back to Pittsburgh for this particular church. And I met with my pastor, Andy Stanley, and he was saying, you know, starting a new church, you don't have all the baggage that you have to turn things when when you're trying to turn around a church that's really set in its ways. And so he gave me fair warning, but um, he was also been my one of my biggest cheerleaders as we navigated our way through that church revitalization.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Um, so let's talk about. So, with your new book, who kind of the audience of the book is and who can benefit really from reading about seamless pastoral transition?
SPEAKER_02Well, church leaders um who are involved with planning for pastoral transition. So that would be an outgoing pastor, it would be an incoming pastor, it would be a denominational leader if they're going to be involved, and it could be a board member. So it really talks about best practices in leadership transition. And for those particularly who are looking ahead to a transition in the short term or in the next several years, it's really wise to get a head start thinking about it instead of waiting till you're in your mid-60s or mid-70s or beyond to say, hey, maybe I should be preparing more for pastoral transition.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And we talked about, um, I think Carrie Newhoff wrote the intro on this, and he brings up such a good point that we always talk about here with the outgoing pastors right now. Pastors are in the kind of we're aging and are aging out. And so you're getting this new wave of um the younger, newer pastors that are coming in. And just there's such a wave of succession right now that we're seeing as the workforce is getting older and starting to age out. And then especially post-COVID, just expedited everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we definitely are in a time where there's a lot of baby boomer pastors who are either hanging on to their church too long or aren't planning effectively. And yeah, one pastor I talked to said, you know what, when I'm finished, I'm finished. And then what happens after I'm gone is between the church and God. And I thought, wow, you've you love your church, you love your community, you've invested decades, and this is an independent church, you've invested decades into your church, and you're okay with the fact that things could go south or go into a ditch when you're gone because you know, you're because you're finished. But you know what? There that that's I don't think that's the typical heart of a pastor, but it actually happens an awful lot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's more common than you think. We always say every pastor is an interim pastor. William wrote that time and time in his books, but also just that's so true. And it the longer I've worked here and seen that, the more and more I see that that reigns so true.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and the book next that William wrote along with Warren Byrd really was one of the ones uh we purchased for our entire board, for me, for the incoming pastor. And it was really a helpful resource when we were going through our transition.
SPEAKER_00Oh, we're so glad. Um, so let's go back to in the book you define a seamless pastoral transition. Go ahead and just kind of explain what you mean by that for people who may not be familiar with the term of succession planning or pastoral transitions, what that means.
SPEAKER_02Uh yes, and it's uh nothing that's dramatically new, but it what it really just says is that the outgoing pastor and the incoming pastor overlap in their service to the church. So the church gets to see both the outgoing and incoming pastors serving together on the church staff. And so there is no gap in time. Uh, and the best uh for-profit and not-for-profit organizations, they really do everything they can to avoid a gap in time between leaders so that the organization doesn't lose momentum or mission. But it's so funny, in many church traditions, there is a planned gap in time. In other words, the outgoing pastor is not even permitted to be involved in any way in identifying or mentoring or commissioning the incoming pastor. And as a result, churches very often take a step backward during um pastoral transitions and very often end up losing momentum, losing their focus on their mission. And, you know, in in today's world, we yeah, churches are becoming more and more fragile, and you just can't afford to lose that kind of momentum.
SPEAKER_00No, you really can't. And it's really sad the idea of how much a church can break or fall apart just from the leaving, and especially like a founding senior pastor. I think that has to be some of the hardest transitions, someone who's been there 40 years, and that's all the church knows.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and you know, I think that can be, especially for founding pastors, it's hard for them to let go. Um, it's hard for them to really see the fact that at some point, you know, there's a next generation leader who will have a fresher vision and more energy. And, you know, there's a different um something different to bring to the table for that next season of ministry. And there is a Joshua in your world that it's time to identify at some point and not just wait till you die, you know, and and hope he's there. Moses made sure that when he left, that the day he was gone, the next day, at that very moment, Joshua led the people. He did not allow, um, and that was a seamless leadership transition.
SPEAKER_00I love that example. That's a good one. Your organization is unique. Therefore, the way you find your next staff members should be unique too. Whether you're school, nonprofit, family office, or values-based business, we are ready to help serve you. Contact us today to get started. Um, so in the book, you talk about a lot of case studies. Um, and you study a lot of these, you explain a lot of them. Do you mind either hitting on one specifically or kind of, I just want to know some themes that you found as you were writing this of some transitions that were done well and what you saw through those?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I recently completed my doctorate, and as part of my study, I decided instead of just writing based on others' writings, to do case studies of churches that have gone through a seamless pastoral transition. And about half of the case studies in the book are interestingly from churches that forbid it from happening. In other words, they're churches with traditions where the outgoing pastor is not permitted to be involved in in a transition. And yet, in each of those cases, the bishop of, in one case, a Methodist church, the bishop of a Lutheran church, in other case, the bishop of an Anglican church, they all looked beyond, instead of just saying this is the way we do things, they said, What's the best way? Uh, what's in the best interest of this particular church? And so, with their blessing, a seamless pastoral transition took place. Other case studies, um, which include an Assembly of God Church, um, an alliance church, these are churches that really would almost be out of sorts if they didn't plan in some way, uh, in one large non-denominational church where they were actually um planning and saying, wow, we just can't hope that things work out after this person is gone. And especially for non-denominational or independent churches, you have to get on top of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you really do. It's so important and so vital to the church body and the congregation. Um, and you talk about specifically, I think it's three imperatives and six pitfalls throughout the book that you have found through all of this study. So let's talk about those imperatives, some of those, I think the top three that you have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's as I look, and I think the Joshua um handoff from Moses to Joshua is a great biblical example. It's the most in-depth leadership transition that's that we can study in the scriptures. But then when I looked at the case studies of the churches that had a successful seamless pastoral transition, these three, they're almost virtues that whether you're you should do these things, I think, whether you're doing a leadership transition or not. Um, one of those is sharing leadership. You know, so many pastors are in a position where it's kind of a lone ranger type of approach, or um, maybe the idea, I'm the leader, and then I just mobilize a bunch of volunteers to do what I need them to do. But they don't really genuinely share leadership. And I think that that is absolutely critical because if you don't share leadership, um, you know, you you may go through a succession, but it will have to be with somebody from outside of your church. Uh, without sharing leadership, you really have not given any opportunity for a person to prove themselves as a potential successor. Secondly, I talk about paving the way as a virtue and also as an imperative because you know there are so many things that you can do where you can just there's an on-off light switch where you leave and the next person comes, or you can have an attitude which is more like John the Baptist, where Jesus was, or John the Baptist was with Jesus when he said, He must increase, I must decrease. So there's this phasing out and phasing in of these ministries. Uh, and that can happen and it needs to happen in a very practical way. And and finally, the third imperative is the importance of modeling humility, which is, I think, the most difficult because you know, when you've got overlapping incoming and outgoing pastors, you really the congregation gets a chance to see this Christ-like honoring of one another, this Christ-like humility. But when it goes wrong, they're watching something that's very, very different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's so true. So let's talk about the flip, some of these pitfalls that you mentioned. Um, I think that these are almost the in some ways more important because you really have to be aware of these and how common they are. I know we talked about them a little bit before we started our conversation, but I want to make sure some everybody hears these because I think they have a lot of opportunity and Satan can use a lot of these throughout the process.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think um one of those is don't wait too long, because you know, at least in the case studies I did, the the ages ranged of the outgoing pastor having a formal handoff between age 64 and age 72. Um, if you wait too long, all of a sudden you're in your mid-70s, late 70s. I I've talked to pastors in their 80s uh who are who just hang on. And all of a sudden, as one pastor who transitioned said, you know, um, I've been there for the growth of the church. I don't want to be there when the church dies. So because I'm the one and I'm the one who's sparking its uh its growth and also its decline.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Uh and so I think you wait too long and um and the people around you love you, your board loves you, they're not gonna bring it up. It's it's it's the leader who needs to say, we need to plan for a transition.
SPEAKER_00I heard this example the other day, and it's kind of a funny one, but in the work that we do, and specifically in this to this point, I thought it was the perfect example. I don't know if you've seen the uh play Hamilton, but it was really popular. And they talked about when George Washington is saying goodbye and the song All About You Taught is How to Say Goodbye. And he left when everybody was shocked. And what you can leave? You mean you're not gonna stay? You're not gonna see the end of this, and everybody loved him, and just the example that he led of like what that looked like and setting up for future success. And I just thought that was the coolest example of a good leader saying goodbye.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and what's interesting, Krista, is uh in each of the case studies that I did, there was a celebration of the outgoing pastor's ministry. And so there was an honoring of what they had invested in the church. And yet, when people wait too long, very often instead of leaving in honor, they leave in dishonor. And people are saying uh they're not, they're happy they're leaving instead of having all these mixed feelings that that should happen when a beloved leader uh makes the transition.
SPEAKER_00I like that you mentioned the celebration of goodbye. We talk about that a lot in our succession reports um with churches when the pastor is leaving at the right time, how important it is for them and their family as they're leaving to be celebrated and honored, but also for the congregation to be able to process that as well. And as church members to celebrate that and say goodbye, it kind of helps both of those sides in the transition.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think one of the uh key pitfalls that leaders particularly fall into is failing or dismissing the need for a detailed transition plan. Because, you know, it's one thing to say, yeah, sometime I have to leave, or even identifying an associate pastor or someone who you say, and when I decide to leave, you can take over. But so often, when it comes down to the timing and the details of the plan, that's left to be nebulous. And that can cause many, many difficulties in the whole transition process. One one pastor in his mid-70s had told his um associate and associate pastor, you're my successor. And when the associate pastor, when it was clear there was not going to be a timetable that they were going to discuss, when they even asked about it, he said, You just even asking about it means you're not my successor anymore. And so that that's a big failure. And that's one thing. Um, one of your coaches came up from Vanderblumen to help us in our transition. And really building that detailed plan was very helpful, very insightful. And it also caused some great conflict with me and my out and my the incoming pastor, because I had a certain timetable in mind, he had a certain timetable in mind, but until we put a detailed plan together, we couldn't wrestle through what that actually meant. And actually wrestling through it was a very powerful exercise that would not have happened if we didn't uh say, here's going to be the exact time when the transition takes place, and here's what's going to happen between now and then. Uh you'll be speaking about 50% of the time, you know, for this nine months. Um, or about a third of the time for the last nine months, you'll be speaking about half the time. You'll be leading board meetings and staff meetings with me present the last few months before the transition. So all those things were um were hammered out and it made a huge difference.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the planning is really one of the most important parts when it comes to doing this well, is there's one, every church is different. Um, we always say if you've seen one succession plan, you've seen one succession plan because we have to come in and like know the church and know the congregation and know what it's gonna take and what's gonna work best because every church is a little bit different and unique. And so we have to figure out what plan works, um, which is why it's great. There are so many options and ways to do that with overlapping and teaching and still helping and being involved and finding that right balance. That's great.
SPEAKER_02For sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, so I want to ask kind of how would you say is a way that you measure a seamless pastoral transition? What's the mark of a good transition?
SPEAKER_02Yes, and what I don't try to do, or and what we shouldn't try to do, is to say, well, let's look at attendance two years or three years later, and then we'll know if it was successful. Well, way too many factors are involved. Um, you know, about six months after I handed off the church, the global pandemic started. So it's like, oh, I guess I picked the wrong guy because church attendance really dropped off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, really.
SPEAKER_02You can't, there's way too many factors on things like attendance and giving. So to me, the success of a seamless pastoral transition is simply that a church has not lost momentum or mission during the handoff. And that's very simple, it's very powerful. It can be seen within months, you know, um, of the transition. Um, but then where it goes from there, you can't guarantee what will happen uh once a transition takes place. But you can guarantee that the organization does not, that the church doesn't need to lose its momentum or lose its sight on its mission because there's um a rough handoff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, momentum and mission. I love that. That's great. Well, Lee, thank you so much for sharing about your book and just the time and the energy that I know went into this and into these pages. I know how valuable this is going to be. So I want to go ahead and share with everyone where they can access this book and get get a hold of their own copy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh, obviously it's available on Amazon, but a good resource is um the website future forward churches, um, futureforward churches.com. And there there's some free resources about um pastoral transition and also church revitalization. Uh, and also there's links to be able to purchase the book. But uh I think that's a great stop for those listeners as leaders who are looking ahead to a pastoral transition.
SPEAKER_00Great. Thank you again so much, Lee. And for everyone else, we will have all of these linked in the show notes on our website so you can get access to those.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen, we help Christian organizations build their best needs through hiring. Succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, Vanderblumen.com to learn more, and subscribe to our Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.