Welcome to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Krista Kneidig, Senior Marketing Coordinator here at Vanderblumen. In today's podcast, I get to talk with Beth and Jeff McCord about their newest book, More Than Your Number: A Christ-Centered Enneagram Approach to Becoming Aware of Your Internal World. In this conversation, they share transformative approaches to the Enneagram, and they explain how it can be used to understand the unique ways that we reflect the image of God. They also share tangible tips for using the Enneagram for ministry and spiritual growth. We hope you enjoy the conversation. Well, hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. I am here with Beth and with Jeff McCord, who are the authors of their new book, which I have right here called More Than Your Number, a Christ-centered Enneagram Approach to Becoming Aware of Your Internal World. That's a mouthful, but that sounds good. Yeah. Thank you for joining me today.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, it's our pleasure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this is a particular book that's come out of our own story. So it's uh such a joy to be able to share it with others.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and kind of introduce your story a little bit to the listeners. I just want them to hear a little bit of your background and ministry and Enneagram coach and all of that that kind of led you to this place to write a book about this. William always says, if someone writes a book about something, there is a deep passion because that is a lot of work. Right.
SPEAKER_03It is a lot of work. Yeah, well, we uh have we got married in college, but soon after that had a desire to go into ministry. And so uh that led us in two thousand or 1998 to 2002. We were at Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis preparing to go into pastoral ministry in the local church after doing campus ministry. Uh we had a couple of kids, and as with all seasons of life, uh, you know, there were some difficult times uh that we were facing financially, relationally, and then this growing family. Well, that's when um a friend shared with us the Enneagram. So we've been studying the Enneagram since 2001. Uh, but as with all people who Christians who want to operate from a biblical framework, there were some questions that we had. And so we we sat on it and remained quiet. But Beth really resonated with it and really became the expert.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, for me, I'm a type nine, the peaceful accommodators and the type nines don't know themselves very well. It's like this internal fog. And you know, in our relationship, I know that Jeff was continually pursuing to get to know me, but it's hard to get to know me if I don't even know myself very well. Right. And so when I found my type in the Enneagram, it was just like someone kind of wiped the fog away to a point. I mean, there's there, it's still hard to know myself uh easily, but it just it gave me the shortcut into understanding myself. And so I was able to like help Jeff understand me and it just really started to change our relationship. But yeah, we definitely sat on it for a long time, even though I devoured it and it really helped me. Wanted to make sure that we were going to use it in a theologically accurate way, and which was so great because Jeff was in seminary. So, you know, he was learning all these things and we just kind of kept it quiet probably for the next, I don't know, five or six years. Wow, just kind of learning how to use it correctly. And um, but then once we really kind of felt like we had a fairly good handle on it for ourselves, Jeff wanted to start using it with the people in our church when he was an associate pastor. And we started using it and seeing great, you know, transformation in other people's lives. Um, we were able to understand them better, to guide them, to advise them, to uh care and love for them in ways that would have been hard or took an would have taken a lot longer of a time. And so we started using it in the local church and with our even our staff, because I at the time was an assistant, um, administrative assistant at the time, and we would use it in our little like team meetings. It was so helpful. That's right.
SPEAKER_03I remember it changing our staff meeting, like it was we saw each other with new eyes. It was incredible.
SPEAKER_00We were able to give each other more compassion and understanding, um, support, and just in so many different ways. So it was just really a sweet time of all of us kind of learning it together.
SPEAKER_03Um, and yeah, that's kind of well, and then fast forward to 2014, we moved to Nashville, Tennessee. I was becoming an executive pastor, which was the goal that I had uh for my pastoral career. And uh that ended after a year, uh, which put us got us spun out in life. We didn't know what to do. Our kids were teenagers. Well, at that time, um, we decided to start your Enneagram coach. And now um we have a reach that's global. We reach millions of people uh every month, and then we also have a certification program that uh we've trained over 2,000 coaches in 30 plus countries. It it's been uh quite a whirlwind. Uh, we've never dreamed of something like this.
SPEAKER_00And it's from a gospel snart approach to the Enneagram.
SPEAKER_03That's right. So it still has this pastoral heart to it on how we apply the Enneagram.
SPEAKER_02Well, I love getting to have podcasts like these and talking to people like you. So I feel like every day I'm learning something new and another resource. And there's really Enneagram's one of my favorite. I think it's a fun one, I think it's an interesting one. We use disk a lot in order to work together. And so I love that you all created a way for leadership to just work together through learning each other. I think there's so much value in that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and we've greatly appreciated from the integram as it relates to uh a team perspective because it does give us insights into the hearts of others. Uh, and one of the things that were really important about what more than your number is, one is getting over the stereotypes of certain numbers so that we're not um presuming upon or making wrongful assumptions about who people are. They're much more complex than that. But it's also being able to extend grace and redemption to people whenever there are certain liabilities of their personality, that there are opportunities for growth. So even now we uh we have a team of uh about around 25 people that we regularly use it with uh as we uh do work together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I love hearing kind of how you got here. So let's talk about the book. Let's give kind of, I don't want to say your elevator pitch, but what is it that readers can expect out of this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Bethy, why don't you go for it? Yeah, so it really is an overflow of the work we've actually done together personally and then in our marriage and then in our work. Um, so when Jeff um, when he left that job originally, why we came to Nashville, it was a really hard season. It was kind of like the dark night of the soul for the the both of us uh individually. But then, I mean, not as a couple, but we were in it together, but we were really struggling to understand why God brought us here, what's happening, where are we going? I'm sure a lot of pastors and ministry people have been in those same spots. So we did a lot of our internal work and understanding where we were at and why we were struggling. Um, and it was at that time that Jeff was seeing a counselor who was helping him understand his internal world. And they were using a modality that was very helpful and talking about internal parts. And Jeff being a type six, type sixes have an inner committee. So it was easy for him to just kind of rattle off, you know, what was going on inside him. And I am like, what are you talking about? You know, because I had that internal fog still happening in me. And I was like, what parts are you talking about? You know, and then I just remember sitting there one day, just kind of really trying to focus on what are these parts in me? And it just dawned on me, I think it was just the Holy Spirit saying, you know, that the two wings. So each Enneagram type has two numbers next to them, and those are called wings, and the two Enneagram paths, those lines that are connected to two other numbers. Like, well, wait, what if those are my parts? Like, what if those influence have a great influence on my life and how I interact with the world? And so once I started to go there, I realized, oh, this makes so much more sense. Like again, the Enneagram brought clarity to my internal fog in such a precise way. And so that's how EIP, which is really what the book is about, Ennegram internal profile is all about. So we have six basic EIP parts. The first two actually come from your main type. And there's the wounded child and the beloved child. The wounded child is a part of our heart that has been hurt uh through trauma or tragedy in our life. Um, and it's young, it's ill-equipped. Um, and it still tries to help us, quote unquote, help us, but because it's young and it's immature and ill-equipped, it doesn't actually help us anymore. It did when we were younger to a degree, but now we need to learn how to access our beloved child. And this is the part of our heart that knows who we are and whose we are. It's our spirit-led self. And that part of our heart feels confident in our identity in Christ and can lead our wounded child back into alignment. But not only that, those two wings and our two Enneagram path types, those four uh Enneagram types have a great influence in our life. And they're either misaligned or aligned, depending on whether they're following the wounded child or the beloved child. And so each of these parts of us show up on a daily basis, hour by hour, um, whether you recognize it or not, and they bring their insights, their defensive strategies, um, their positive attributes to our life, again, depending on which one they're following. And so by recognizing this, what's so helpful with the integram is we can see when we start to veer off course and maybe you land into a common pitfall. And so the integram is like, and the EIP is like that rumble strip on the highway that alerts you hey, you're starting to veer off course. You want to wake up now, surrender, depend on the Holy Spirit to bring you back into alignment, to bring that beloved child back into leadership and allow the beloved child to coach, mentor, shepherd, pastor the rest of our parts into a healthier path to be more like Christ.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think you answered my main question, which was asking how the EIP is different from just your Enneagram type or number. And I feel like you already dove in much deeper than I had known about it, leaning into that.
SPEAKER_00But if you have anything else, well, I would just say, sorry, one quick thing. We do use all nine parts to varying degrees. So I do, as a type nine, use all of the nine parts, but our basic EIP really focuses on, you know, your wounded child and your beloved child for your main type and the two wings and those enneagram paths. But that's not to say that some of the other parts don't show up in different ways from time to time as well. But if we can just focus in on those um aspects of our type, the basic EIP, it will shed so much light on to whether we're operating in an alignment or misalignment with the truth of the gospel.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, really at the heart of more than your number is a few things. Uh, number one, we we are more than just one number. That's you know, some of the times we get put into a box or a stereotype according to this Enneagram number, which is just kind of odd language in itself, like I'm a six. What well, what does that mean? Like you're not that attractive, or what does that mean? Um, but uh so it does speak to that that we're much more complex than uh the first kind of initial description of each Enneagram type and their way of relating to the world. But I think too, there's a great phrase that I've heard my recovery friends say that um discovery is not recovery or observation is not transformation. So much of Enneagram introductory material is about describing the types and just growing in our sense of self-awareness. But it doesn't take the next step to do what David was doing in the book of Psalms, of learning to uh, you know, when he talks to himself and he says things like, Why so downcast, O my soul? Or in Psalm 131, I have learned to quiet my soul. And that's where more than your number takes the Enneagram a bit further to help us to understand how can we apply the truth of all that uh God is for us and the person and work of Jesus and applying it to our hearts now, so that the fruit of that shows up in our leadership, it hope it shows up in our relationships, and it shows up in how we exercise our calling.
SPEAKER_02How healthy is your team? Our culture tool is a free, comprehensive staff engagement study that will help you build a winning culture. Try it out today on theculture tool.com. Yeah. So speaking of that, of kind of I want to talk back to these relationships and leadership and talk about how the EIP applies to these different areas of life, whether that's your marriage, your parenting, your ministry, um, just those around you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, there's a great line that we learned that um uh and we say it a lot, there's part of me that wants to do this. Or maybe like, uh, why does it up, why does a part of me show up whenever I'm in uh my occupation versus whenever I'm at home in family life? EIP gives a map to understand what not only that these parts of us exist, but it gives vocabulary and understanding of their motivations, their roles, their gifts, as well as their liabilities. What else would you add?
SPEAKER_00Well, I was just gonna say I can kind of give an example of how EIP works for myself. So Jeff and I are the co-owners of your Ennegram coach. Um, and so we're leaders, we're employers. Um, and he's a CEO, I'm the chief content creator. And so we have to lead these wonderful people. Well, all people are scared of being in leadership roles for different reasons. I being the type nine, the false message of the wounded child within me says, don't assert yourself, don't make much of yourself, don't have too much confidence, don't boast. Well, you can see how that can really hinder my ability to lead because then I'm like, I become small. I I want people to ignore me, you know, like don't think too much of me, you know. Um, but that's not good leadership. So I have to recognize that part of my heart that is has false messages, limiting beliefs. Um, and then to bring the beloved child, which says, no, your presence matters. God created you in such a way with different gifts, but you have to assert yourself. You have to bring the gifts to everyone else, not hoard them and to trust him. Now, what also happens with the EIP is I also have to recognize how those other four parts are operating. When my wounded part is in the lead, my type one will show up with quiet criticism or passive criticism or judgmental um attitude. Now, no one's gonna probably feel it like a like a pure type one, but it's gonna come in more of a cold way and kind of a demanding way that things are done right. My type three, when it's in a misaligned place, can really be more consumed of my image. You know, how do people hear it? Now I'm still a nine, my nine is always leading, and my three is working on behalf of my type nine, but the three is still concerned about image. Well, how can how can we appear still soft and gentle, but also I don't, I don't want to be overlooked. So how do I get my presence out there? How do I win people over? But then my sixth will show up with worrying about all the things that could happen and go wrong. And she can get really anxious and spun out and kind of irritable and defensive and trying to just take control of things because she's so afraid. But my type eight part, she wants to just kind of plow over everyone. Usually it only shows up with the family for the most part. Occasionally you'll see this kind of passionate side come out. Um, but let me show you what it looks like from a beloved stance. So as an employer, I know that my biggest weakness, my Achilles heel is sloth, which is the core weakness of a type nine, which again is not thinking much of myself, thinking I don't really matter, my voice doesn't matter. So my beloved self needs to come in and speak the gospel to myself, but also speak it to the type one and say, no, we don't need to judge people, but yes, let's bring wisdom, let's bring truth, let's make sure things are done well, but with gentleness. Okay, type three, yes, you know, we do want things to look well. And yes, we want to make things happen. So let's let's have a plan, let's have goals, let's have the team have goals and let's make sure those things happen for sure. Let's kill it, you know, like let's make sure that we achieve. But from a healthy perspective, and then the type six, the type six part of my heart, a lot of people think that we are that the sixth part is anxious, but actually they're the most courageous in the Enneagram. And so they're like a warrior that helps me to get through difficulties. And then my type eight brings strength, passion, and assertiveness. And when she shows up, she helps my nine to be strong and gentle all at the same time. And so that's where it's so important to understand how the different parts of us can either be misaligned or aligned from um a working standpoint so that we make sure that we bring the best of who we are into our work environment.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. Um, I just love how much more there is to this. And I mean, y'all have studied this for years, and so there's so much depth to this. I'm a little bit scared to ask, but also curious. I'm would consider myself a type seven. Um, and we talked about earlier before the podcast, we were just kind of getting talking more about this subject. And you mentioned that she went down this path with someone and they were like, oh my gosh, I feel like you saw everything. And so I'm a little bit curious what you would say to the people like me and myself as a type seven in that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So, you know, if people were to look at you as just a type seven, they are going to say, Oh, yeah, she's spontaneous, she's fun, she's whimsical, but she's also scattered. She doesn't complete things, she um forgets stuff and she doesn't take life seriously.
SPEAKER_03Maybe bounces from relationship to relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she can't stay in the present moment. She's always off to the next thing. Now, those things are true and accurate, whether you're aligned or misaligned, but that's not the whole of you. You know, think about a going to Sherman Williams. So in our Ennegram symbol, the type seven is more of a red color. Well, if you were to go in and pick out a red, there's thousands of reds that you could choose from. And so what we're wanting to show is that you are your own red. And it's a mixture of how you're using your type seven parts and how you use the ones that you're connected to. So your two wings, which is uh six and eight, and then the two integram paths are five and one. So what this might look like, so as the wounded child who's trying to protect you, she might show up and go, oh my gosh, I'm feeling trapped. I'm feeling um someone's making me deal with you know emotional pain or negativity. I don't want that. So I'm gonna think of the positive. I'm gonna reframe things because I can't depend on anyone else. I got to do this myself. Well, when that's not happening really well, you might move into your one space. So the type one might show up and is like, you know what, I am really disappointed that other people are keeping me from fun or that they are not making things happen. So I'm gonna be a little critical. I'm gonna be a little curt in my communication to make sure that they do what I want them to do so that I'm okay. But also the type eight part of your heart, the wing part of your heart might come in with a lot more passion and insistency that people do what you want to do. So there's a little bit more control and intensity. The type six part of your heart might actually get you revved up with anxiety. Like, well, what if I don't get what I need? What if, what if I'm always going to be in this state of thinking of negative things? Or what if I lose relationship with others because I I'm bouncing from thing to thing? So the six can get you riled up with a lot of what ifs. And then the five part of your heart can be like, well, we just need to escape. We just need to get away. We just need to recharge. No one gets me, no one's helping me. Well, that's the wounded part of your heart. Now, the the beloved part of your heart is when the seven goes, you know what, there are hard things in life that sometimes I have to deal with, but Christ is going to walk me through that. He's not gonna let me go to a place that I can't handle. He's gonna replenish me, he's gonna restore me, and he's gonna bring joy, may not be happiness all the time, but he's gonna bring deep seated joy. And when that happens, the type one part of your heart is gonna recognize, you know what, there are things that we actually need to do. It's not always fun, but if we do them, actually goodness will come, satisfaction will come. So let's double down and get this list accomplished. The type eight part of your heart will go, you know what, we can plow a path on the behalf of others and still have fun. The type six part of your heart can go, you know what, there are hard things in life, but I'm gonna show you how to tackle those hard things. I'm gonna give you courage when it feels impossible to sit in it. And the type five is gonna say, hey, come inward, listen to the Holy Spirit, listen to who you are and understand that joy and sorrow can be together. And let's process that together. And when you're there, then the type seven part is going to bring true joy and abundance to everyone around us because joy doesn't always mean happiness. But it's the fulfillment of life that Christ gives us. Does this sound kind of accurate in your life?
SPEAKER_02It does. It's like the first part was like, oh wow, she's really seeing me. Oh my goodness. And then I just continue talking, I'm like, wow, I have seen those at different phases in life. When it's funny, we actually did a um mental health podcast not too long ago. And I talked to our VP of strategy, Jen, and we were talking about just like the times when I had struggled with more anxiety and the transitions of life. And just as things become harder and the ways that you you have to learn to look at God through those moments and have a deeper trust in God when I want to be controlling and I don't want to release control and trust in him. Right. Um, so that's really honestly refreshing.
SPEAKER_03You know, there's a there's a great passage in the gospels where Jesus comes to a man who has a demon-possessed child, and the man asks Jesus to deliver his son. And Jesus says, Well, I can do that. Uh, do is this what you really want? And or do you believe? And then the man responds, I do believe. Help me overcome my unbelief. That there are parts of our hearts that it and we experience that as followers of Jesus. This uh we're we're both and I'm not just full, totally of faith. There's part of me that doesn't believe, that hasn't been experiencing the pain and tragedy of living in a sinful and fallen world. And so it's easy for us to come to bring this experience now. So the anxiety through transitions is not something to be avoided, but the Enneagram gives us a map and language as well as a sense of uh direction to be able to apply what we believe to be true about the gospel, now apply it to these parts of us that are really struggling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That's great. Um, so I want to ask a quick question. In the title of the book on the front cover, it says Um, an approach to becoming aware. And this is an acronym. And so I want you all to try to that of what that means in terms of this book.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, that's something that Beth and I have developed over the years. Um, I remember early on, whenever we were using this model or the Enneagram, uh, I called them team meetings. So in my devotional times in the morning, just there with God's word, his spirit, and now opening myself up in kind of silence and solitude. How do I take account for all that's happening inside of me? And aware became the acrostic to account for everything. So A stands for awaken. That's just recognizing that I'm experiencing something internally. For me, that could be ruminating thoughts. Uh, it could be anxiety, uh, something that's getting me up in the morning. Just uh it could be something I'm feeling in my body, uh, maybe tenseness in my neck. We've even talked recently about how pain shows up in our shoulders, just accounting for it. Number two is welcome. Uh, that is to be hospitable to these various experiences because they actually may become opportunities for the spirit to bring insight and understanding into our lives.
SPEAKER_00And importantly, welcome without judgment, shame, or guilt. That's right. Like, like literally just from a non-judgmental place, welcome, see it, deal with like reality at hand in a place that's that's kind.
SPEAKER_03And then the next A is ask. Uh, that is both asking the Holy Spirit and these parts of us internally is to invite God into the experience of under helping us understand. It's David saying, search me and know me, see if there's any unholy ways in me. Uh, the next one is to receive, to receive truth. Oftentimes the parts of these of our hearts don't fully embrace, see, or understand all that who God is for us in Jesus. And then the last thing is based upon that truth, it's faith working itself out in love. So, what does it look like for me to re-engage in my own life as well as into the lives of others and maybe into the lives of the congregation in new ways based on that truth?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Wow. Well, that's great. Um, thank you guys so much for sharing a little bit of insight into this book. I'm so glad that I have my copy now that was sent over. And it's a great resource that I can go to, as well as the friendship now that I have with the two of you. I know that y'all are a great resource and that our team could greatly benefit from just knowing more about this and working together, as well as so many other aspects. So thank you for the time you've put into this. Um, where can people find this book? I know it comes out in September. I want to say September 20th.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00September 20th. Yes. So everyone can go to your EnneagramProfile.com and all the resources and benefits of what we have to offer in the book and where to get the book are at that website. So yourineagramprofile.com.
SPEAKER_02Great. And just so everyone knows, we will make sure to have all of their website and links and social media and all of the resources available in the show notes so that everybody can see that after the show. Thank you so much, Beth and Jeff, for your time. Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_03It's great being with you.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen, we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website, VanderBloomen.com, to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts to keep up with our newest episodes. Thanks for listening.