Welcome to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Denitick, Senior Marketing Coordinator here at Vanderblumen. In today's podcast, William talks with Sam Lewin, author and campus pastor at Saddleback Church South Bay. He has a heart for helping people know Jesus and helping campus pastors grow and develop. In this conversation, Sam talks about his book, Your First Years a Campus Pastor, where he shares practical leadership guidance to help campus pastors create an intentional plan and strategy for their campus and church. We hope this podcast is a resource for anyone starting a new position in ministry.
SPEAKER_02Well, hey everybody. Thanks for being here today. I'm in not even business casual, but I am representing the republic. And uh glad you're with us in a summer episode of our leadership podcast. I'm super excited to have Sam Ewin on the uh podcast with us. Yeah, no, Sam is has been with uh Saddleback Church for quite a while. I want him to tell his story, but super excited. This is this is a little bit of a niche. I think it's applicable to more than just campus pastors, but Sam's written a book about uh his first year as a campus pastor in one of the best churches in the world, really, not even America. Yeah, excited to dive into that, but also some leadership uh principles that are transferable really for anybody starting a new anything. So, Sam, welcome.
SPEAKER_01Thanks for being here with us. Thank you for having me, William. So glad to be here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Let us know your story. I mean, I I I love introducing my friends to other friends, it's kind of clue.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, so I I've been doing ministry for about 17 years. I know I look like I could be still in college, but um much older than that. But uh been around. I started at a Korean church, worked at Mariners for a couple of years, and then I've been at Saddleback for about almost seven years. And at Saddleback, I started out as an associate pastor, kind of like the the number two guy. And then the past uh five and a half years, I've been I was a campus pastor for the one of the campuses here at our and one of our locations. And I've actually just shifted over to a new role, the leadership development pastor for our church. So, how to develop leaders and overseeing our leadership program at our church.
SPEAKER_02So yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I've written a few books. I'm actually writing one right now as part of my summer project. And uh every time I do this, I'm like, you've either got to be crazy. Everybody thinks it's cool to write a book, but you either gotta be crazy or have something inside you that's gotta get out. Yeah. So what was the something inside you? First of all, give us the elevator pitch of the book itself and then the why, but why take all the time to write that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. So I I was a campus pastor five and a half years. I loved it, got got some training and and learned a lot. And I had a really difficult first year as a campus pastor. Um, and so out of that pain, uh, I learned a lot. I failed a lot, made a lot of mistakes. And I realized as I've as I've now been doing it for so long and talking to other campus pastors, it's just there's not a lot of resources out there. There's some, there's not a lot of books, there's some articles, there's some things that people have talked about, like leadership network and different things, but there's just not a ton of stuff out for campus pastors, which is kind of a niche market, but there's about 5,000 campus pastors. I think there's some studies that were done about that. And so, um, and it's growing. Multi-site strategy is one of the fastest ways to grow your church, at least before COVID. Um, and so I thought, you know what, like I've learned a lot. I've I've been able to grow from this awesome church and have a lot of leaders speak into me and help me develop my own philosophy and ideas of leadership. And so I wanted to write this book to help um create a healthy team and healthy culture for the campuses. And I think what you said is is absolutely right. Like this isn't just for campus pastors. I think it's transferable to any pastors because it's it's just a strategy of how to think through your first year to start off well. Because I think how you start off really uh it doesn't determine how you're gonna finish, but it's a really good indicator of where you're gonna be um and how you're gonna finish. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Totally agree. A great book for anybody that's starting a new anything is your first 90 days. Yes. Fantastic read. Absolutely. I mean, nearly every job I've had in my career, I sit down at the desk the day after I got hired and I'm like, now what do I do? And uh it's a lot of figuring it out. And I I don't know about you, Sam, but like so many things. And if you pastored through the pandemic, you did this more than I did. But when I was pastoring, it's like I would sit and work on whatever needed to be worked on. I'm like, and where are the class notes from seminary where we studied? Because it's yeah, it's all new. On the other hand, nothing's new. I remind my uh my Catholic friends and clients, you guys are the first multi-site church thousands of years. So yeah, so let me let me start here. You said that your first year was really hard. And I don't know, I'm prying, but yeah. Tell us about tell us about the struggle. What was it? Where'd you fail? I mean, what what made you go? Oh, and and then of course, how'd you get out of it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I I didn't start the campus when I first got there. It was uh six months. I knew a guy started it, launched it, and then they um he actually stepped out um because he got called somewhere else. And while that happened, we got moved, we got kicked out of the high school we were meeting at, and we had to go to a different location. And so for nine months, they had no campus pastor, there was no leader there. Um, and no one really it was they were having a hard time finding a position to fill that. So I finally got in involved into that role and asked to do it. And and during that time, um, it was it was nine months. Imagine nine months without having a leader. That's that's just tough, right? And and and on top of that, the campus, we had to move nine times out of the year. We weren't in one location. We're a setup tear down church and we had to move nine times. So that's like 20% of the of the year, like one in every five, six weeks, we would be in a different location. Um, and so one of my first things when I got there was hey, uh, we have to go. Where are we gonna meet first in church in a month? Because we don't have a location where we're gonna do it. And so I was stressed out about that. We only had one staff member there that was overseeing our campus at the moment. And she was doing a lot, a million different things. A lot of volunteers were, um, you know, they were kind of some of them were burning out and and just overwhelmed and not a lot of vision and direction. We moved around, and um, there's just a lot of questions of like, would our campus survive? Would we be able to handle all these challenges that we're presented? And especially with the move, like it's hard enough just to do one location. So every location we we would literally be, we've been around like nine different locations around the city uh in this area, like hotels. We had our Christmas services on the Queen Mary in Long Beach on a boat, like it was super cool, but a huge logistical nightmare just to get like every place is different. Like, tech the our tech director was stressed out all the time, our worship, like it's just a massive logistical challenge to move to just one location. Um, and so we would bring these.
SPEAKER_02It'll wear you out. Sorry to interrupt, but like the only time retirement's mentioned in the Bible is is the priests. I don't know if you know this, but like in when they're wandering through the desert, yeah. In I forget where in the Pentateuch it is, but there's a rule that says that at this age the priests need to step down. And it's like, well, is that because they're no longer relevant? And they say, No, uh, they were in arguably the worst setup teardown situation in the history of the world. Yes, they had candlesticks and tapestries and all the ornaments and everything. And you know, those guys set up the the tabernacle and then they look up and it's like, Oh man, the cloud just moved. Break it down, set it back. And it led it led Moses to say, Okay, guys, sooner or later this is going to wear you out. I mean, that that whole load in load is still true today.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. And we felt that that was that's kind of the running joke for the South Bay, our campus was like we are like Israelites in the wilderness, just moving around. And so did that for the first year. And and when you asked the what mistakes I made, I made mistakes of like hiring and firing and bringing on the right, wrong people, and just a lot of uh communication issues and just a lot of challenges that came. But even in the midst of all that, like every year we actually grew. Um, our attendance was actually more people were still coming when we went to different locations. We actually picked up more people, and they were some sort of energy where God was doing something amazing in our in our campus. And so, even in the midst of that, it was there were some cool things that were happening.
SPEAKER_02That's great. That's great. So, in the in the book, uh you walk through things. Let me let me see if I put you on the spot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Tell me a principle that you learned for first year at campus pastor that anybody listening could could take into whatever their next assignment is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think uh well, you mentioned it before about the 90-day plan, like uh the your 90-day plan. I I read that book. That was influential for me. So, one of the things I did that I think is applicable to anyone is before you actually start your role, um, um talk to a lot of different people, but create a 90-day plan of what you're gonna do to start your to your job or your new role in and really make it methodical, intentional, like who you're gonna talk to, who you're gonna meet. Um, and not necessarily you have to do a lot of stuff, especially if you're starting a new role. I would highly recommend build relationships with people, find the key influencers, find the people that are in the organization or volunteers or leaders or staff members that you need to talk to and make it a point to plan it all out. Um, and so in the book, I talk about how the 90-day plan should be relationally based, especially the first couple of months, and then also kind of assessing the health of a campus, assessing the health of your ministry. Um, so you're kind of doing those two things together, building relationships, hearing what's going on, how things are going with and connecting with people, all different types of people. And the second thing is um just assessing how how healthy is our ministry, how healthy is our um as our as our church or campus, and really being able to dive deeper, but making that plan before you actually start, so that when you actually start, you are you aren't just like wondering what should I do? You're you already have a plan, and you can always change those plans and adjust it, but um, the more intentional you are, I think the better outcome you're gonna have and more um more more abilities to pivot or change rather than trying to make it up on the fly.
SPEAKER_02That's good. That's good. I thought we made everything up on the fly. I've been doing it for the whole of my life. Uh yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_02Hey, so let me ask you this. There are probably people, um we could do this from either side. There are probably pastors at multi-site churches listening. There are probably also people who are saying, uh, I'm thinking about becoming a campus pastor. It's a job right out of seminary for a lot of people. Uh what should what should a candidate who's thinking about becoming a campus pastor, what should they ask themselves about the job they're looking at to see if it fits? Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00No, absolutely. So in the book, I actually talk about that. The first two chapters, like before you become a campus pastor, like what is that process to consider or think through? And and there's four things I mentioned is first, check your heart. Like, why do you want to be a campus pastor? Like, if I was honest, I wanted to be a campus pastor. Um, obviously, we are all going to say the same thing. I want to do it for God's God's kingdom. I want to have more influence. I want to lead more. And and those are absolutely true and honest. Um, but the the deeper motivation behind it is also something that you need to check your heart. Because there's another part of me that was, I wanted it for the status. I wanted to be um, I wanted a sense of a pride, a sense of ownership, a sense of like I'm it it is almost this sense of like it's about me, even though I knew it's not. But I think if we're honest with ourselves, why do you want that um promotion if if for some places, right? Or why do you want that role and that position? And Patrick Lencioni talks about the motivations where people are motivated by more by these extra external uh things, maybe a bigger paycheck or status and a sense of of of significance in the organization. And and that's okay to a certain point, but I think you have to really know what is going on, the motivation behind it. And so I wanted to be a campus pastor for so long, but I had the wrong heart. And God didn't give me that position until a year later, where my heart was actually in a much better place and more in a in a more character-filled place where or more humble place. So the first thing I would say is check your heart. Why do you want to do this? And really be honest with yourselves. There's some questions I outlay outlined in the book. The second one is obviously check with God. What does God want you to do? Um, whatever God wants you to do, you just got to do it. But being able to hear his voice and know what his voice sounds like is really important because you got to distinguish your voice versus God's voice. And sometimes we merge those two together. And um, and it's important to distinguish that because God's word is very clear. And and sometimes it may not be clear like audibly, like God's gonna say, hey, go do this job. But there's if you are able to hear the shepherd, he will speak to you and lead you and guide you, especially in a big moment like this. The other one I say is check with your family, because as a campus pastor, um, as we all know, um, pastoring is not just gonna be about me. Your whole family is in this too. And so your wife, your kids are gonna be impacted by this. So having the conversation with your family. And me and my wife, we when we were asked to for this opportunity, we had 48 hours to decide. And so we prayed and fasted for those 48 hours. And we were like, man, God, if you're gonna want us to do this, give us some Bible verses and make it very clear that you're leading us to this. The first night my wife and I, we came and we're like, no, we got nothing. The second night we came back, we're like, Oh, we got some verses, and she had some verses, I had some verses, and we're like, you know, we really feel like this is where God is leading us to. And so checking with your family, check with your kids, making sure that they're part of the process, that they understand that um this is not that you're asking them to do it, but you're you're part of a team to do it together. And the last one is just check with the church. Like um, some churches, there's different types of models of multi-sighting out there. And so you got to really know, like, is this fit me? If I'm a teacher and preacher, maybe this video venue is not going to be for me. And and that automatically discounts you. But if you're like, man, I I want to teach, then you got to go check out a different church. And and and and so knowing the positions that's out there, but also the values and the culture, right? And so I I encourage people to interview the church uh uh former staff members, interview current staff members, interview former campus pastors or people that are doing your role and get as much information as possible. So you're not walking in with this pie in the sky thinking, oh yeah, the church is great. I heard great things about it, everybody loves it. That may be true, but sometimes a member has a very different experience from a staff member. And really understanding the culture of the church before you get into it will help you distinguish, man, is that role right for me? And is the church culture right for me and my family? Because some churches they demand a little bit more from their wives or your kids, and their work hours are very different. And you don't want to go in naively thinking, oh, yeah, it's gonna be this great experience. Um, where in fact every church is a little bit different. It's it's there's a different culture. As you know, you wrote a book on culture wins. I love that book, by the way. I quoted in the book. Um, but yeah, you just have to know what the culture is because you will, it's more than just uh your job that you're thinking at.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I tell candidates and clients, whether it's a church or school or nonprofit or whatever, uh, you know, the whole hiring process or an interviewing process if you're interviewing, if it's done well, uh nobody walks down the aisle with Rachel and wakes up next to Leah. So, like so and that means to get that done, you got to ask the hard questions, you got to find honorable ways to do it, right? Like, for instance, help me with this because I don't know the answer to this. When I sit down to start a search, and we'll use the church, but we do think a lot of things besides churches, but let's use the church as an example. I'll sit down with the hiring agent, right? The Steve Johnson or or whoever it is um at Saddleback, and I'll say, Listen, let me ask you this. We're looking for a campus pastor, these roles, there are very few campus pastor for life people. It's a developmental role, okay? And that's not a bad thing. So, Steve, or or if it's you, if it's Sam, the leadership development guy, how much time has to pass for me to be back here doing this search again, and you're not in a bad mood? Yeah. So it's a nice way of saying, like, what's what's an acceptable tenure for this? Is it three years, five years, seven years? So if you're a candidate, you're the leadership development guy, you're gonna have to interview people. How should a candidate ask that kind of question without sounding like they're they're gunning for the next job? Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00No, absolutely. And I think part of it is also knowing what is your shape, how are you, uh what's your skill sets, your passions, your experience. And then what does this role really entail? Um, and you you could obviously ask the interviewer, but also ask former campus pastors of like, man, like some see campus pastors are not teachers, they're not ever going to teach and they don't never want to teach. I know some of our campus pastors are like that. And that's a great thing that they're just gifted to um to manage, to pastor, to lead in that way, versus and this role, if that fits your role, like I think you can you can be in there in a long time. And I think asking those questions, like, what what what is this skill set and the and the gifting that you want in this role? And what is what's an acceptance? I think asking them, hey, like tell me how how long campus pastors who have thrived in those roles, um, how long have they lasted and and what is their satisfaction level with this role? And and I think that gives you a window insight to, yeah, we we we want people here longer, but as long as it fits their shape, as long as it fits their passions and they know what they're getting to some. Um, I think you're right. Sometimes it is seen as a developmental thing. And so it's just more like, well, let's just see how you do and and go from there rather than putting people in the right place, um, in the right bus and saying, no, this is this is we don't expect you to be here forever, but we know that this is something that you're called to, you're good at, and and we want to and honor you and reward you accordingly.
SPEAKER_02That's beautiful. I love this. So make maybe you say, hey, think of the the three campus pastors you put in the hall of fame. How long were they in that role? Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, super helpful. So um, as you're looking out in the future at you know, multi-site, right? And this is a bit off topic with the book, but but what have you seen in the seven years you've been doing that that seem to be trends that are changing and may stick around for a while within multi-site?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think uh, well, COVID's obviously changed everything, and uh a lot of people are thinking through everything. So even for us, um, how you do multi-site, uh, what that looks like. I'm no I'm no genie or I don't know anything in the future yet, but um, it sounds like I think multi-site is still going to be an effective strategy to reach people, especially if you have a good culture and a good uh a brand as well as a good developmental program. Um, I I do I am hearing more and more churches, especially bigger churches, start to have a leadership development emphasis, whether it's a role, a position, or uh more intentionality. And so I think that's something where, especially with Gen Z, they're wanting more of that hands-on uh mentorship and guidance. Um there's a different generation and culture, that relational piece that I think um is missing. And so I think that's something that's gonna be a huge need and value as we look to the future generations. And and I think that's gonna shift the culture of the church, where um we necessarily can't do everything we've done in the past um the way the same way. And I think that's something we're looking at evaluating. How do we use technology, but also use um technology as well as using the cur the strategy that we have used and has been effective. What does that look like in the future? Um, I think some of the core principles of just authenticity and and just some things that I know like Clay Scrogans have written a book about um the seven aspiring things. And I totally agree with that. I think just it's gonna have to be contextualized in your church as well as your city, because every city is a little bit different. Like in California, we're very different from Texas, and just understanding those differences is going to be important um to be well and succeed well in the multi-site world.
SPEAKER_01That's excellent. This has been super helpful, Sam.
SPEAKER_02I really appreciate you and what you're doing, and and talking about the future. Here we are at a handoff at your church. We got a new pastor coming in, and I imagine that means everybody's like how we do multi-site, everything's kind of okay. Let's see what the next chapter holds. So yeah, appreciate you. Uh, you say you're not learning on the fly. I know you, I know you're intentional, but we're all learning on the fly. You just happen to be very good at it.
SPEAKER_01And uh appreciate you writing the book. Uh, title of the book is Your First Year as a Campus Pastor, practical guide to build a healthy team and culture. And it's on uh Amazon and all the things, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Hey Sam, your uh website for your blog. It's Samuel Yoon, S-A-M-U-E-L-Y-O-O-N.com.
SPEAKER_02Sam, thanks for being with us today. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yep, take care. Bye-bye. God bless. Bye.
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