Welcome to the Vander Women Leadership Podcast. Senior Martin Coordinator, Senior State. After decades of serving in this church, we were given the privilege to help Bryant carry out a succession plan. This conversation is his latest book, Capture That Journey. We hope you enjoy this conversation.
SPEAKER_02Well, hey, everybody. Thanks for joining us again on our leadership podcast. I am thrilled today. I love connecting friends. It's basically what we do as a search firm is connect people that ought to know each other. And uh today you need to know Bryant Wright. And more of you probably know him than know me. But uh Bryant is a wonderful friend for many years now and has written a great book on succession. And yes, if it has that title, I'm gonna buy it and read it. So there's there's a secret. You can sell one if you do that. Uh oh, but I it given that we have made this an area where we really feel called to try and uh see if we can find the best path forward for teams. Uh I thought we got to get Bryant on here. And he was gracious enough to say yes and join us. So, Brian, thanks for making time for us today. Really appreciate you.
SPEAKER_01Great to be here and very thankful, William, for your positive influence in this whole process of succession for Johnson Ferry. Great help.
SPEAKER_02Well, thanks. Thanks. I I you know, one thing I've learned, Brian, over the years, we're now 14 years we've been doing this. Um, is that it is a big, big kingdom. It's a very small world, but there are a lot of people that don't know really great people because it's a big old church. And I wonder if you could just tell a little bit of your story, like you know, the Bryant Wright story, so people can know who they're listening to.
SPEAKER_01Well, had the privilege of being called out of the business world. When I finished the University of South Carolina, I I really so admired my dad, a fine Christian businessman very involved in the church and kind of wanted to follow in his footsteps. So I did that for about three years, working in Augusta, Georgia, with a chemical company and working in sales, which was really great because you're constantly calling on new people and being in new situations. Uh, and you get turned down most of the time. So it's uh it's uh a good building of perseverance when you're doing that. I would still be in the business world, William, if God hadn't called me into ministry. I really enjoyed that and wanted to get into management there. But that third year, God began to stir. And I know calling is often hard to describe, but I was just beginning to feel I wasn't in the right place. So uh as Ann and I prayed about it for six months, uh, felt God was really leading in that, headed to seminary, got through that ordeal for about three years, and then uh was led to be a singles pastor at Second Baptist Church in Houston with Ed Young. When he was in the early days of getting started in that church, and as Ann says, that was kind of my doctorate in ministry, just serving on that staff for two and a half years, tremendous experience. And that church was just exploding in that time, and it's continued to, yeah, yeah, but it's still going strong at 84 or 85. Uh, just amazing stamina he has.
SPEAKER_02I don't, I don't, I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this. I don't know if he's human.
SPEAKER_01How many people? I mean, you you watch the winning walk now, and as vibrant and alive as his preaching is, it's really amazing.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it might be like robotic or cryogenic or something, I don't know, but yeah, I don't know. He still takes the stairs three at a time. I mean, he just does not slow down. I well, he's the first pastor to call me when I moved to Houston to pastor first present church. And I was just amazed at the energy. He wanted me to go on vacation with him and then he outlined what the day looked like. I got tired listening to him.
SPEAKER_01So well, one of the things I had to unlearn when I began to pastor John Safari is staff retreats didn't have to be about working from dawn till midnight. You had to have fun on staff retreats. He thought it was fun, but for the rest of us, we were totally exhausted.
SPEAKER_02He's a wonderful man.
SPEAKER_01I learned so much from him, William. I mean, I really did. And you know, I'll say this to other pastors. Uh, when you were not working to somebody that strong, that dynamic, I also had to unlearn some things in the first five years. Pastor, obviously, being a church planner, it's so different from coming from a megachurch. But secondly, Ed Young is Ed Young, and I'm Brian Wright. And so I had to unlearn things that I thought every church ought to do that just it one, it might not be me or it might not be Johnson Ferry. So to go to Johnson Ferry, where we were starting there in a doctor's office and didn't have a building or land or anything, I had no idea that the Lord would allow me to stay 38 years. And as Ann has told folks, my wife, that you know, Bryant really pastored about 10 churches, they were all just called Johnson Ferry because it was so different at so many different stages of growing with the church. And thank the Lord He blessed it. And thank the Lord is still doing great with Clay's leadership. So excited about that.
SPEAKER_02That's great. And and now, you know, I you may not you and I may not want to go on that kind of vacation or staff retreat, but but neither of us are very good at sitting still. So now you've stepped into a new role, right?
SPEAKER_01That's right. Um, when I uh was the sun, the Monday before Clay was coming to view of a call, uh, Paul Chipwood, who's the president of our international mission board, called and said knew I was retiring, and he had a role really in their end of compassion ministry or belief type ministries that he wanted to ask me to pray about considering. And I was immediately intrigued because global missions really became the great God story of John Safer. It just our church really embraced the Great Commission. Literally, thousands of people going out on short-term mission trips around the globe, with many people called out of the church, full-time ministry or missions. And so I hoped it would be something in mission. So I was immediately intrigued. And I asked him, I said, Have you and Kevin Ezelle, who's the president of the North American Mission Board, ever thought about just having one ministry for relief and compassion? So the pastors would kind of have a one-stop shop. And he said, Well, we've thought about it, hadn't done anything. I'll pray about it. And to Paul's credit, within a couple of weeks, he contacted Kevin Ezell, and within really a couple of months, they had come together to have the first joint ministry that these two entities in our denomination ever had. And that's been pretty exciting. So they asked me to be the first president, and that began in March of 2020, the very week that COVID shut down the world. So it was an interesting time to begin a brand new ministry, but it really has been a joy leading in that area. And you know, with like this Ukrainian war, William, we're doing so much work with Ukrainian refugees through the churches of Eastern Europe as well as Ukrainian uh evangelical churches and Baptist churches. And to see people respond and have an opportunity to work through local churches internationally or domestically, it's really been a meaningful ministry, hoping we're doing some good along the way. That's great. That's great.
SPEAKER_02Well, let me let's move to the book. Uh the book's called Succession. We uh and uh you can get it everywhere, right? It's it's a Amazon and all that, right? That's right. Yeah, and and of course, we'll send out links with all the notes with all the links and everything uh after the show goes out. But uh I'm I'm just curious. I I tell people all the time, I've written four books, I'm writing the fifth one right now, and everybody, oh, that must be fun writing a book. No, it's not. I mean, uh I've got seven children, and I laugh and say, I made it through labor and delivery just fine every time, and you know, my wife just but but but it I don't know that me as a man knows what labor and delivery feels like, but getting an idea out of me into a book form requires like some heavy burden. And and I'm always interested to ask authors, why in the world did you take the time to birth this book?
SPEAKER_01It's a great question, and I think you've addressed something. A lot of people want to write a book, but they don't have a passion or something that they really feel needs to be shared. And I've only written books when I felt like there was something that could be shared that was maybe a fresh idea or a fresh way of looking at a theological or scriptural insight. And yet this book is different, William, because this is more of a testimonial. Uh, other books I've written have either been devotional books or uh books on the second coming or books on I did one on the biblical arts and the Middle East conflict. I know that sounds very complex, but it was really just a biblical study of how all this came about. And yet I realize most Americans think it all began to be a problem in the Middle East in 1948 when Israel became a nation. It doesn't realize all that background. So I like the idea of taking something people had done. But I know with your book next that you did with Warren, there are other books out there. But I felt like this was a chance for a pastor who had a wonderful experience in the whole succession process just to share what we learned and what we did. And if a pastor can pick up one or two ideas that is thinking about retiring, or if a search committee could just pick up one or two ideas that thinking about their church and transition, I was hoping this could be a help to churches because it's a title wave, as you know, William, a tidal wave of boomer pastors retiring over the next 10 years. And church after church is going to have huge needs. A lot of times, though, following a long tenure, especially a founding pastor like I was, that's the toughest deal to face. Well, since God led us through a good experience with me being the long-tenured founding pastor, I thought, well, maybe there's something to share here. So it's really a testimonial type book of what we did over a six-year period at Johnson Field. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. So, you know, one thing, Kylie, we did a succession plan with you guys four or five years before there was ever a uh a search, and you were way ahead of the curve with that. Well, you're one of the very first to really think about it long term in the churches I know. Why do you think it is that churches are either uh unwilling or unable to put together a succession plan for their pastor?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I loved when I read Bob Russell's book, the longtime pastor at Southeast Christian Louisville. He said, if a pastor comes to the elders with a succession plan, it's a succession plan. If the elders come to the pastor with a succession plan, it's a firing plan. And I had read that book a couple of years before 2012, when I had finished being president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and I really had a sabbatical just to reflect on the next decade, 30 to 40 years as Pastor Johnson Feary. And one of the things I really got convicted of was to come back to the elders and say, we've got to develop a succession plan. So when you came in and met with us the first time four or five years ago, we had already gotten underway a couple of years earlier and come up with some basic plans that you affirmed to us. But it was so good having you in for, I think it was a one-day consultation with me and some of the other staff and elders and all. And you just pointed out some things that moved us further down the road as far as preparation. But each step along the way, every year at our elders' retreat, I would just give them an update once we had come up with a basic game plan. Because they said to me, Brian, you tell us when the Lord says it's the right time, and we'll put this process underway. But I tell you this, William, I think a lot of pastors are just afraid that if they bring it up, the elders or the deacons are gonna think, well, it's time for him to move on. He's already checked out. Well, it's just the opposite. The elders were so appreciative that I brought it up because once you turn 60, I started getting comments. Well, how long are you gonna keep at this? Or when are you gonna hang it up? You've been here 30 something years, you know, those kinds of things. And and it wasn't people that these were friends, they were just genuinely curious about things. So I know the elders were getting those questions too, probably. So it really relieved them to bring it up. And we presented it to the church even before you came, of our three plans. If I died suddenly, or if we had somebody on the staff that we were going to make a transition with, or if we went outside with a search team, and we just presented that to the church in conference. Now our conferences are very small, so but I was still worried about that. I was worried I might have to be putting out fires. Bryant's about to retire. Yeah, yeah. We told them in that conference, said Brian has no time plans to retire for eight or nine years. Uh, we just felt this ought to be in place, and Bryant came to us. They told him Bryant came to us. So the I there was no fires to put out, William. I I was really amazed that people just thought this is good planning.
SPEAKER_02I think that you know, the the the enemy is the the liar, right? And I think that I think the lie that I hear leaders repeat that they've been fed is I'll be a lame duck if I bring this up.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever worry about that? I did. I I had a concern about bringing it up, and all of a sudden they're starting to move on, and it's gonna be hard to get anything done. So it's a very understandable fear.
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SPEAKER_02So, you know, I hadn't been a pastor for a while now. It seems like when the pastor is the one that announces this, especially if it's not when they're turning 67 or 8 or 9, but earlier, that rather than becoming lame duck, it's almost like, especially the businessmen in the church. And I know you had a good many business executives. There's more respect for you when you bring it up. Was that an overstatement?
SPEAKER_01Or it really is. It's they were so thankful, and they live in a world with major corporations or running their own businesses where they have to have succession plans. I mean, it's just a part of the corporate culture and being responsible stewards of leadership. So the John Safari is in an area where we're ministering to folks that are in corporate culture, people that have transferred in from all over the country. So they they saw the importance. I realize every situation is different. Maybe a person in a more rural setting might wonder that it might make them more tentative in their leadership there once that happens, but it sure was a blessing to put it on the table. We addressed it, we had a game plan, and then they came to, and what they said to me is Brian, it's in your court now. When you feel the Lord's leading, you let us know. I think the respect was enhanced.
SPEAKER_02I I totally agree with you, and it's so counterintuitive. And I I just spent time for the last two months trying to convince the pastor, he's hit some bumps in the road that if he'll bring up, hey, sooner or later we need to talk about when I'm not pastor anymore, it's going to actually undergird his leadership rather than erode it. And uh unfortunately he didn't listen and is it's eroding quicker now. Um but you know, the other the other lie that I hear people come to is I mean, it's an amazing thing for a person to feel like they can get up and speak publicly. That's like number one fear, right? It's it's was it Seinfeld that said uh it's actually higher ranked fear than death. And I think Seinfeld said people would rather be the subject of a funeral than the speaker at the funeral. They'd rather be the guy in the casket rather than the casket. Exactly. So I'll take the casket over the pulpit. Uh so it's a pretty remarkable thing when you get a person who feels a call of God to stand up everywhere. I think it's almost like, what is it in a man that can stand in a pocket in the NFL and see these 350-pound men rushing at him and stand there and take it and throw that? It's the same kind of thing. And the shadow side, long story, sorry, but the shadow side of this is uh what what I called Brett Favre syndrome. And the lie is, hey Brett, you got one more season, buddy. Yeah, Brett, you can't. So what when is it time for a pastor to consider it's time, or how do you know it's time so that you don't bail out too early and be unfaithful, or be Brett Favre and just be like, he's remembered for not being able to quit?
SPEAKER_01That's right. It's a great question, and it's a hard question. Uh, in 2012, I thought I would go to 70, that would be 40 years, 740. They sound like good biblical numbers, all that seems to ring true. But for some reason, at 67, I really began to sense that it was going to be sooner than I had had in my mind. And I think there also selfishly, we have some things that we have to deal with because you know, when you're pastor in a mega church, you have quite a platform. And I just was concerned about giving up that platform. I mean, I that sounds egocentric, and I'm embarrassed to even have to confess that to you and those listening. But, you know, I enjoy the platform and the opportunity for influence for Christ that you can have, not just from the pulpit, but just in the whole community and all because you've been there. So I think giving that up is really hard to do, and it's kind of counterintuitive, but I do think there's also a lack of vision, William. And that was the big thing for me. I just began to feel a lack of vision for the future of Johnson Ferry. The mission didn't stop. The mission is the Great Commission, right? We've got a clear mission that never changes, but every pastor has clear vision of where to take the church over the next five years or three years or 10 years. The pastor should have some idea of what God's put on his heart of where to how to lead the church. And I was just blank and I kept asking God. I mean, for instance, there were 10 things that I put before the Lord at that 30-year mark in 2012 that I hope could happen uh at the 40th by the 40th year. Well, by the sixth year, nine of the 10 things God had already blessed us with happening. So, and the remaining thing was we had set up a sabbatical plan, but I hadn't put it in motion. And so I felt like God was just saying, that's your vision, Brian. That's your vision. It's time to put it in motion. And in a human way, this is kind of, I think this will help, though, the readers. I used to go to my dad in college, when am I ever going to know I've met the right girl? He'd say, You just know. And I just tick me off. That didn't tell me anything. But I think it's the same way with when it's time to leave a church. You just begin to sense that it is time. And then you have to decide, am I going to trust God when I give up this ministry that I've loved, when I give up this platform? Am I even going to be able to preach the word places? You know, you just don't know how God's going to fill in the details when you're real, I'm really called to preach the word. I mean, that's that's my kind of first calling in ministry. But you just have to trust that God is going to meet those needs. The lack of vision, sensing it's the right time, I think are clear things. And then we just have to step out on faith, trusting that God will lead the way process.
SPEAKER_02That's good. That's good. So uh you mentioned a phrase in your book that I love, and you talked about pastors being interim pastors. Tell me what that means. I I got my own sense of what that means. What's that mean to you?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I I need to apologize to you because I was sitting getting ready for this interview today, and I thought, you know, I think I first heard that from William or Warren when they were leading their seminars around the book next. So if y'all are the ones that came up with it, forgive me that I didn't give you credit, but no, no, no, no, no, no. I do think, I do think that really described that gives the healthiest view of a pastor. I love that when I first heard it, whether it was y'all or somebody else, because then we realize if the church is going to be healthy, all of us are interim. Whether it's six months, I did an interim for 10 months when I finished Johnson Ferry and love the experience at a church there in Texas. But at the same time, whether it's 38 years or six months, we're all interim. The church is going to continue on, and that gives you a much healthier. How can I then be the best steward in this short-term or long-term interim, pastor, that God allows us to have? That really helps to have a healthy outlook.
SPEAKER_02That's good. You know, we were blessed to uh sit down and dream with you guys about what things could look like, and then we were blessed to get to serve you all and help in the uh identifying who God was raising up in clay. And uh, so we've watched this, and and people say, How do you how successful are you at this succession thing? And I'm like, Ask me in 25 years, because you can't know this, but it's been a few years now, and man, it seems to be doing pretty good. And and the key to that in my mind is you. Oh, Clay's great guy, John Sapiri's great church, but the the the lion's share of a successful succession is on the outgoing pastor. So tell me what you've done, or maybe what you've learned you should have done to help that succession go well because everybody's going to be the former pastor sooner or later.
SPEAKER_01That's right. There will. Well, it's a good question to ask, William, because when I was beginning to think about this, even before that sabbatical time, when I wanted to come back and get a process in place with the elders, I would talk to people and ask guys that were successors to long. Tenured leaders. I mean, I can sit, I can see myself sitting in the office of the CEO of Campus Crusade now crew that followed Bill Bright. And he looked me in the eye and he said, Bright, when that time comes, it's going to be 90% up to you. And boy, I was shocked because I thought it would really be up to my successor to come in and do the job he's supposed to do. But he said, No. He said, You got to realize it will be a make or break proposition by how you handle that process. He said, Dr. Bright couldn't have been better for me. Just a great example. And he said, You'll probably see if you'll study it right, you'll see where it didn't work, the senior pastor just couldn't let go. And so that planted the seed, William, that I didn't want to, I didn't want it to end like that. Uh needed to be willing to let go during that time. But I I have come to realize from talking to others who were successors that if the senior pastor is not willing to let go and have this is a very overlooked thing, have a clear ending date that he sticks to. And everybody knows what that ending date is when it's announced. I feel like that's absolutely essential for letting go. And then I think we have to make ourselves pretty scarce. Ann and I have only been back to Johnson Fury two and a half years, eight times, and I've been the last two Sundays just because I wasn't preaching anywhere. And I slipped into the back of the service and in our the first week, and then she was under the weather the second week, wasn't able to go, but slipped in the back after the service started, seeing a full house both Sundays. William, what a joy, what a joy to see the ministry is continuing on. But I think it's important to keep myself scarce. I think it's better for clay that I'm usually not there. But that's hard. You love these people 38 years. I mean, you poured your life into them. It's just hard. But I'll say this the Holy Spirit gives peace when God is in it. And I call it supernatural peace, that even though we still live in the community, we're still members, I ride by that church three or four times a week. I see what Clay's got on the billboard for the sermon title. I'm happy for him and excited for him. I have no desire to go in. I just think it's it's that's a chapter that's passed. And God affirms that when you're willing to let go. But the but if the senior pastor isn't willing to, I don't see how it could ever work. I just that's a key. Totally. And also, quick thing, William is the wife. You were the first one to mention when you had that one-day consultation of how many problems arise when the long-tenured senior pastor's wife can't let go. And when I came home and talked to Ann about that that night, she was, oh my goodness, that really unsettled her. She didn't want to hear that because that's the last thing she wanted to do. And she didn't want to feel that pressure, you know, that she could do something, but it but that really is important. You look at some of these that haven't gone good, often the senior pastor's wife wasn't willing to let go in that situation. And Ann has been great about that.
SPEAKER_02You know what? She's been a real role model in it. And I kind of think now it could be the spouse if you're in a church that ordains women, but most churches don't. So statistically, globally, it's usually a husband leading, and this wife is the spouse. And I think in those situations, it's probably harder for the wife to let go than the husband. It's a harder job. I mean, they've plants roots and raised children. And uh I I don't want to minimize a husband's role, but it's just hard. And she did a great job. I also would add, and you've probably thought of this, but I think it's easier to let go of what you've been doing for God if you've got something to grab hold of to go do for God.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And I'm very blessed that we and I realize that's not always the case for those that leave, but I do tell folks that are thinking about it, start experimenting with things that you're passionate about and spend some time on those and begin to pray about how you could do those, even if it's on a part-time or a volunteer basis, because to quit cold turkey and have not have anything when you've been busy as can be for all these years, that's not going to be a healthy transition for anyone. So that's the encouragement I give, but also that the wife needs to be ready. When I first brought it up with Ann, she was not ready. And it took another year of us really talking and praying about it before Ann began to have a piece. So I feel like the husband and wife need to be on the same page about that. And then the day that it was announced to the church, Ann and I had prepared a video that came out and we announced it that Sunday morning, but it came out that afternoon so that rather than people, because you know, when you're a preacher, it's only about a third to a half of your members that are there on a certain Sunday. So you hate for people to hear secondhand, but the word spread like wildfire, and it pointed people to a video where Brian and Ann were going to share in more detail how they came to this decision. And so Ann was a part of that video, and that was very reassuring to the congregation to see it wasn't just me maybe being tired or uh feeling this is the right thing, but for them to hear that Ann had come to a piece about that, I think made it a good starting point for the congregation and accepting that time. That's that's great.
SPEAKER_02Well, I hope everybody listening will go get a copy of succession. And I don't care if you if you're president of a college, you're an interim president. If you're a CEO, you're an interim CEO. If you're you know building superintendent, you're an interim. And uh I would say the smartest thing you can do, and frankly, the biggest leadership you could exercise is preparing wherever you're serving for the day that you're no longer there. So I'm just anything that's titled Succession, I'm gonna buy it and read it, especially if it's by a good friend. So uh Brian, thanks for taking the time to write this and the time to talk to us today. Appreciate it so much.
SPEAKER_01Real joy, and I really do hope this book, like yours, will be a help for the kingdom, you know, in building up churches all around the globe.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening to the Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblemen, we help Christian organizations build their best needs through hiring, succession, compensation, and diversity consulting services. Visit our website at Vanderblemen.com to learn more and subscribe to our Vanderblemen Leadership Podcast wherever you live in the podcast to keep up with our newest episode. Thanks for listening.