In this conversation, Jason shares ideas from his newest book, The Come Back Force. He shares hospitality secrets to creating an experience that keeps your guests engaged and coming back for more. We hope you enjoy this conversation.
SPEAKER_04I am really, really excited to be talking with you today, Jason. Um you've got your uh brand new book out. What which number of book is this? Is this number three? Five. Number five. Look at you.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if I'm killing it or if it's killing me. So but I did a first book, really nobody's ever heard about, which is totally fine. Maybe nobody's heard about the other ones. I don't know. But the first one wasn't for the purpose of people buying it, it was actually for the purpose of me going through the discipline of writing. Oh and I had heard some things about writing and I wanted to experience it. And I learned, you know, don't edit while you write. There's some things that I learned. And then Jonathan and I started really book two. We just finished, uh, let's see, was today. Yeah, so two weeks ago we submitted book six. It'll come out in July of 23. So it just works, it works with him. He's awesome. Just the way we work together.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The just the humility. I mean, he he makes us he makes us better. So it's a real joy. That's great.
SPEAKER_04So so tell everyone a little bit about your background and how you came to write a book about this subject. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So in the church world, most of that, most of the 25 years on church staffs, also working alongside uh churches, helping them to um with their leadership development, with team development, that could be staff or volunteers. And then specifically related to this book, creating experiences that guests love. And I think for for so long, um we just expect people to show up, you know. Whereas you have all these companies, they invest money, they have these personas, they they do certain things to attract people and they do these things to keep people. And really what they're doing is they're building this culture that people feel they're a part of, that love, invite other people to come with them, hence the hence the the culture part, because if we're just building tactics and these things that like we can't sustain, that's not the idea. The idea is what does it look like if internally we built a culture that our internal team loves and then the external team loves too, or the external individual or a guest. That's huge.
SPEAKER_04Now, who is is the audience the church or is it broader than that? I think it's broader than that, but I wanted to just clarify for for everyone listening.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's broader than that. In fact, I would say this book, more than any other book we've ever written, is is written beyond the church. Yeah. Um perfectly appropriate for the church. Sure. But it's uh it's, you know, I mean, the Ford by horse, you know, being in the hotel industry, Ritz Carlton. So it's this idea of, you know, hospitality, which is feels antiquated. Um, it feels it's an industry, but long before it was an industry, it was actually a belief and a behavior. And so it's almost reclaiming an antiquated word and putting it into our modern cultures to watch how people respond positively because people want to feel, and that's what hospitality is about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, you you see it in in your most successful companies, you know. I mean, it's it's the difference of going into an Apple store and into a Microsoft store. Even though Microsoft tries to make even makes their store try to look like an Apple store, there's an experience because I think, like you said, there's I mean, you know, culture, you know, we know William culture, culture wins, and culture is such a and if if and if you're not focusing on that and you're just focusing on your product, man, maybe that can work if you have a really fantastic product. Um, but overall, I'm just I I'm not I don't think that that that's gonna work and and really it might work for a moment, but it's not that long-lasting glue, right?
SPEAKER_03There you go.
SPEAKER_04So interesting. The the you talk a little bit about the difference of of calling everyone a guest versus a customer customer. Now, obviously, from the church world, that's easy. We're not gonna call them customers, sure. From the business world, how does that work?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, you know, some people say, so you're saying using the word customer is wrong, and it's like, no, there I don't know that there's a a right and a wrong. I think if you say the words, they feel different. So for me, that's where I begin. And the other thing is the language that you use influences the behavior that you choose. And so that's good right there. If I use a certain language that I call people, and again, customer is not bad, but customer feels transactional, whereas it's very transactional. Therefore, if that's the case, subconsciously I behave to support whatever the word is, you know? Yeah. And so for me, that's the that's the difference. It's not to knock the word customer. I have I have corporate clients, they use the word customer, and it's fine. I'm not gonna change that animal. That's not what I'm trying to do. What I want us to think about is like, what are the behaviors that we want to demonstrate to that particular guest or customer, right? Um, in order for them to feel something, and then in order for them to respond or remain engaged with us. So that's good.
SPEAKER_04I mean, even here at Vanderbloom, we talk about serve, don't sell. And it's really that same kind of idea of it's your mentality, it's your focus. What are we trying to do? Are we trying to just close a transaction? Yeah, no, like here at Vanderbloom, we're trying to solve people problems for faith-based organizations and help their teams thrive. So it's not just about them being a customer and getting our product or our service, it's really about this long-lasting relationship that you you have. I mean, obviously, right, the best guest experience is Disney, right? People love Disney and they go every and they wouldn't even consider another part. I mean, Disney's where it's at for the Disney people. So uh you also talk about, and and this is I think this is such a a big deal. Um, and not just in in in working with your guests, things up, but just life in general about being fully present. Talk to us a little bit about that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_03All right. So I was I was doing an interview recently, and somebody asked me this question, and it was if you had one idea to pick out of the whole book, what would it be? And I'm like, uh, and I actually that it would be this, it would be fully present because it's what you just said, Michael, that this isn't the idea of being fully present. I didn't come up with right. I'm not that not that brilliant, but it's more than just like doing it with a team or your guests, but it's like, what if you're fully present with your family? What if you're with your spouse, with your friends, with your parents, with you know, your neighbor? Like, yeah, so this idea of being fully present is uh if I choose to be fully present with you, I'm kind of holding up this this megaphone and I'm telling everybody and everything else, hey, I just want y'all to know that the most important person to me right now is the person in front of me. So that's what I'm so I'm it's my body language, it's where I am mentally that the other person doesn't even necessarily know, but I'm having to kind of press pause on what I'm thinking to enable them to press play and I'm actively listening and I'm responding. And I'm not necessarily there to solve everything for them, I am there to listen to them and to validate them. Because you know what, Michael, interestingly enough, and we see this more than ever before, people people want to be seen in a way that makes them feel comfortable. I cannot do that unless I'm fully present. So you know what? Yeah, don't don't listen to respond. Listen to to understand my my wife who's a therapist, she she taught me this years ago. Uh, she says, Jason, there's a difference when you talk about the idea being fully present, whether body language or spiritually fully present, you know, right? Like realizing God's put me in a spot to do something, or emotionally, you know, giving dispensing empathy. She says there's an idea of listening to and listening through. And I'm like, okay, that's what does that mean? And she says, listening to is listening to enough of what someone says to formulate a response. Listening through is listening through their words, their emotions, their body language, their questions behind the questions. You're listening through. And then at the end, maybe you need to respond, maybe you don't. Maybe the response is you are fully present and you listen to me. Yeah. And I'm like, and I said, which one do I do? She goes, You don't want me to answer that question. The reality is it's it's hard. There's a great book. Her um, gosh, her first name is Kate, but I think the title of it is called Are You Listening? And it's put out two or three years ago. But again, it's just an entire book on listening. I think I'm no brilliant expert, but I think what people need most, what our kids need, what our spouses need. Uh, if you are a supervisor over, you know, one or a thousand people, if you lead volunteers, yeah, listen. Yeah, listen to them. Yeah. And it's amazing what it does for them, but it's amazing what it does for the relationship.
SPEAKER_04It's funny. I was um, I read the book Um Never Split the Difference, which is a fantastic book, uh, FBI high negotiator, and you know, so I'm reading it. My wife and I are sitting sitting on the porch, she says something, and I and I I go into the book and I use a piece of the book, and I'm like, oh really? What so it it it sounds like it's really important for you to da-da-da. And she's like, Yeah, it is, and then I'm like, Oh, yeah, so so what you're saying is this, and she's like, she went, hold on, what's going on? You you're you're really fully engaged, you're totally listening to me, and I'm like, you mean I don't know it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so you know, you know, yeah, to make it difference, it does, and to make it practical, I do leadership development for um uh first year leaders in a particular role for FedEx Ground. And one of the things that I work on with them are in this context of being fully present, specifically listening, what are helpful phrases to say to people and unhelpful phrases that you want to avoid that could make them say, Oh, you're not fully with me, you know? And so I think the idea of using phrases like if we were to have a conversation and you were sharing a frustration, I might say something like, Michael, that actually sounds really difficult. Right. And as simple as that is, it says, okay, you're listening. And two, these phrases are like bridges for the conversation to continue. But if we're not listening truly, we're not gonna be able to say those phrases. We're like, oh man, that's a bummer. Or we're coming to the next thing, right? Or the famous one. This is the famous one. In fact, I just had an argument with my 17-year-old daughter uh yesterday because we have we're at college orientation. Oh, and she often says, uh, I understand. And I hear adults use this all the time. And I think we might mean well when we say these phrases, but what the phrase says is it's actually not true because you you don't understand. You've never been in my situation, yeah, you've never felt what I feel, you know, versus saying things like, I can I can see how you'd feel like that, you know. And again, all of that is driven to this listening and being fully present.
SPEAKER_04And that always heard, you know, it's funny. I can't tell you how many times, and it's always salespeople, and I'll introduce my, let's say it's a car, right? I'm buying a car, and I'm like, they're like, hi, I'm Joe, hi, I'm Michael, and they'll say, Oh, okay. So do you like Mike or Michael? Which is a funny question, first of all, because I just introduced myself as Michael, but that's fine. I'll say, Yeah, usually Michael, and I swear nine out of ten times, and I'm probably probably even more than that. Like, oh, okay. So, Mike, what are you looking for today? Like, why do we just do that whole song? And you know, it's so funny, but it is that whole be present, be about the person. Um, you know, I I was just on a live uh call with uh Len Wilson the other day, and it's it's we have to be much so much more about people, and I think even to your point, it's also about bringing empathy. So not only do I hear you, but I I feel you. And and I may not understand, and I might, I may not even agree, but man, that sounds like something you're really struggling with. You know, that's something we're learning to say with our kids, and they're like, Well, yeah, or that sounds like it's a really gives them really big emotions. They're like, Well, yeah, I yeah, is yeah, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_03Well, and when you think about you know, empathy, empathy is really I'm trying to experience someone else's feelings, I'm not trying to solve it, I'm not trying, I'm trying to experience what is Michael feeling. And if you're not fully present, look, let's take it broader, let's make this practical. So for the person uh working at a church, uh leading volunteers, wants to have a great guest experience. If your volunteers don't sense that you're fully present with them, it is going to be very difficult for them to want to be fully present with the guest because the team reproduces what they experience, right? And so are you fully present with your volunteer? Does that model for them being fully present with the guest? Like, what does that mean? What happens when you're not? You know, so sometimes we learn from the opposite. Um, but it it really is because people don't go, oh wow, Michael was fully present with me. They don't use language, but what they they what they do is they they use feeling words or they sense something different, and really that's one of the key things. That's what it is, and empathy is a massive part. That's why I always talk about leaders. Like, what would it look like for us to be dispensers of empathy?
SPEAKER_04Oh, I love that. I love that.
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SPEAKER_04You talk about three questions that bring you from being average or mediocre to excellent. Talk about that and and also if you can touch on how do you because this is something I struggle with, how do you balance excellence and not going towards perfection?
SPEAKER_03Oh man. Bro, that that's uh this one's not that everything is personal in the book, but this one's personal because let me just be let me be honest with you, and and if you're listening today, let's just be real. Yeah, this is a struggle for me. This has been a struggle for me my whole life, that I have a self-inflicted burden of the idea of perfection. I don't even know what that looks like, but it is a pursuit, and sometimes it's an obsession, and sometimes I beat myself up about it. And sometimes, like if I just give a talk, or if I go to a church and preach, or if I write a if I write a book and and I'm like, oh man, I did such and such. That wasn't perfect. And you know, and I kind of beat myself up about it. And I don't know, maybe, maybe you, maybe somebody listen today, you're like, okay, you too, yeah, you know, yeah, you're in good company if you're listening today, and that is you. When I think about excellence, um uh a former volunteer of mine, he was CEO of a of a company, and we got to talk about excellence one day because I always sensed that's he was so good at it. And I said, like, I how what do you what talk to me about this? And he says, Jason, I do aim for perfection, even though I don't even know what it is, but I eventually land in excellence. And I said, like, what does that mean? Horse Schultzy talks about this, different people talk about it. I think sometimes we perfection doesn't exist, right? Right, and and so I think trying to give ourselves some some compassion about that, but what does exist is excellence, and excellence is not just an idea, but it's supported with behavioral choices that prioritize the person that communicates care. Yeah, so for example, if you're at a church, excellence from an aesthetic perspective, let's just even make it really simple, cleanliness. Yeah, excellence would be I'm walking down the hallway, I see a piece piece of trash, and I'm like, well, I'm not gonna look down because like somebody else will get it. Excellence would be that little piece of trash matters. I'm an owner, I'm gonna pick it up, I'm gonna throw it away, right? Or excellence is if I have a meeting at 10 o'clock, I'm gonna be on time with that meeting because that's a behavioral choice to be excellent. You know, if we are working on things like preparation, that's excellence. And so a lot of times for me, I'm I'm always like, you know, what's what's working, you know, what's not, what needs to be fixed. Maybe another way you could ask it is, you know, what's right, what's wrong, what's missing, what's confusing? Because in these questions surfaces things that, man, you know what, we are really doing that well. And then it shows up over here, like, wow, there's some ambiguity there, or why are we even doing that? And the church, the church is notorious for adding and adding and adding and adding. And I think sometimes what we do in adding, we get complexity. When we get complexity, we get ambiguity versus what would it look like for us to actually subtract? Yeah, you know, and maybe go about clarity that way. So excellence is um it's an it's a mindset that then is delivered in a behavior, and we have to model that, and that plays out in a lot of different ways. From if we hand out a bulletin at our church, the paper we choose, yeah, the way that it looks. I mean, I know you're a creative, and it's like, wow, okay, I think somebody's four-year-old kid made that. And some people, some people have said to me, Well, you know, that stuff doesn't, that stuff doesn't matter, and that that is not excellent thinking. Everything communicates, and since everything communicates, everything deserves to be excellent. So you could take it spiritually or not spiritually. Spiritually speaking, God is entrusting us to represent him well. Representing him well would be to be excellent. If you take a spiritual sign, when you do things in an excellent manner, what it communicates to the person that is receiving whatever it is you're saying or doing, you're thoughtful, you're intentional, you're caring. And it feels like, you know what, they're doing the very best that they can, and this is the way it should be. I don't know if that makes any sense.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, I I I love that. And and the truth is, um, you know, I tell my team here, everything is marketing, right? Everything we do is marketing and brand and things of that sort. And and so the truth is, even your in your example, if it doesn't, well, no, that's fine, it doesn't matter, then don't waste time on it. Just waste time on the things that matter and the things that you're good at, and in in the spiritual context, the things that God's called you to. Because if he's not called you to it, then why are you doing it? Why are you spending any time and emotion and energy in those areas? Um, you know, many are ideas and plans in a man's heart, but God's way that prevails. So spend your time in that kind of a thing and and and be excellent in it and be be aware. And again, I just I what I love about this, this entire concept, and where I see I'm seeing a bigger focus in in our world today. Um, I think is especially coming through what we all just came through over the last couple of years, we're seeing each other more. We all we're recognizing that we want to be seen, but we're also recognizing that you want to be seen. And and we're it's much more about people now than than maybe projects or you know our agendas. And I love that. So I'm I'm I it's interesting. When I first look at the book, it's about how to have, you know, oh, good, great customer service and great guest experience, but I think it's so much deeper than that. So I think it's yeah really, I'm I'm really excited for for people to get into this book and get their hands on it. Tell people how they uh what's the best way to get hold of the book?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you you said something that's interesting, and I would agree with you. You won't find this this phrase in the book. I don't even know that I really use this phrase often, but I think I hope, I hope, um that the book helps people understand people. And that's it's like, well that's that's elementary. But because we're humans, we sometimes focus on ourselves, and because we're humans, I think we have over the number of years, we've increased our addiction to motion. Sometimes what we can do is we can overlook just the basic uh human needs. needs of the person that is next to us. And for me, that's why I revisit this idea of hospitality. Because for me, hospitality is intentionally showing generous care to another person. And there's some key words in that intentionally, generous, and care. Right. And so if we could do that, you know, more often, that again in your home with your neighbor, you know, at the pool that you hang out with in you know maybe your neighborhood, your church, whatever it might look like in your company. So they can um the they could go to the comebackculture.com and check out the book there. Catchfiredly dot com is is my particular website. There's awesome other books, other books there, and there's some resources, free resources on on that website as well. Awesome.
SPEAKER_04And we'll of course put the links in in in and on on the website and all that kind of stuff as well. So man Jason, thank you so much for taking the time and thank you truly thank you for for you and Jonathan writing this book. And um and for everyone that's listening and watching uh get a hold of this book whether whether you read it whether you listen to it get a hold of this book and and truly get get to a place where you can live a life that says how can I make other people's lives better? I think your life will become better because of it. Thanks Jason.
SPEAKER_02So good to see you thanks Michael you too buddy Thanks for listening to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. At Vanderblumen we help Christian organizations build their best teams through hiring succession compensation and diversity consulting services. Visit our website Vanderblumen dot coming