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SPEAKER_01William, most churches in America are actually quite small. About a hundred people or so. But less than small, they're really just normal. But a lot of pastors, they feel like they're failing. And the reality is that they're just normal. What what do you think has led to that kind of thinking and maybe that almost insecurity around such a topic as church attendance?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, let's let's stop for a minute. Um we things slip every now and then on this podcast, but I'm gonna have to call you out. I don't know. Because profanity is just there's there's no place for coarse language. And when you use a four-letter word like small, it doesn't work for me. Or was it two Corinthians? It's a four-letter word, small is. Okay. Okay. A L L. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Seriously, people talk about, oh, I'm in a small church, I'm in a small church. You're not in a small church, you're in a normal church.
SPEAKER_03109 is the normal attendance at church on a Sunday in America. That's the backbone of why this country lives and breathes. And everybody thinks, well, I gotta be special like this, or I saw that online, or my cousin goes to this church that has 94 locations. They're the weird ones. Yeah. They're the weird ones. Yeah. You are not small. That's a four-letter word. Well, you are normal. And that I think is the biggest hurdle to get over in normal size pastoring. There is uh uh, you know, I I hope is that I get to spend my life being a part of overpopulating heaven. Yeah. Okay. I'm all about winning more people. I don't want anyone to die into a hopeless eternity. I don't want anyone to end up that way. I want everyone reconciled. I want it all. So I'm all about big, reach more. Every every number is a soul, every soul is a story, you know. I I all about that. Having said that, the shadow side of that is if I'm not growing, I must not be doing a good job. If I'm not, if I don't have a thousand for my early service on Sunday morning, then I'm failing. You know, it leads to all these sort of bigger is better is not always how God works. Yeah. I have a friend who's not uh a church attender. He will be one day, but he's not right now. And he's like, why is it that pastors always think that God's progression of their career is to larger and larger churches? Does God ever call someone to a smaller church? That's a great point. And I think what the biggest challenge is you get caught up in this sort of intoxicating who gets the headlines and the mega churches are good, the mega churches are evil. You get caught in that and think that's normal, and you're not. You're sitting here having to figure out if you can the printer's broken, so you're going to FedEx to run bulletins for Sunday. That's normal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_03And that's the biggest hurdle for churches. Frankly, the most encouraging thing I've seen in my time here is the idea of hiring a search firm. That would never have happened 18 years ago at a normal-sized church. Yeah. And now we do probably over half of our church work is finding pastors for churches of under 500. And a lot of those are down in the hundred range, that sort of thing. So seeing what we're hoping is a solution for the church become adopted by the normal people, that's a really great thing. And I think if pastors can of normal size churches can say, well, then what are normal expectations? That's great. Then you know it it frees you up quite a bit. It's not an excuse to not to to be slow. It's not an excuse to not try and win people to Jesus. Sure. It's just an acknowledgement of what's normal and what's not.
SPEAKER_01I want to ask you about this phrase that I've heard when it comes to church, but also in different spheres of leadership, business, whatever you want to call it. But the phrase of healthy things grow. And like you said, there are some churches who just aren't growing. Just give me your thoughts on that phrase when it relates to the church. Is that do you think it's correct? Do you think it's you know?
SPEAKER_03Let me give you my my experience. Okay. Healthy things grow. Everything I've ever tried has grown. I'm happier when I'm in a growing place. Some people are not. That's probably more normal. Uh I go into the Presbyterian church where evangelism is just not our thing. Like I went to Princeton Seminary. There was not an evangelism class on how to win your neighbor to Christ. Not one. So that's just not a hallmark. And you put a guy whose growth and sales oriented me into that environment. I got so frustrated. I thought we should start paying our pastors with commission for baptisms. I thought maybe that would get us off our butt. And then I realized that's actually what Rome did right before the Reformation. And probably not the best idea, but uh, you know, there is in the normal sized church, there is a tendency to think, well, we're just normal, so we're not gonna grow. We're not gonna try and reach new people, we're not gonna try and do new things. No, no, no, no, no. Normal sized church, just have normal expectations. And and then part of that expectation is if you're healthy, you will be growing. That's great.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, that's great. I want to talk about that mindset, that thinking. I think a lot of what leaders or leadership, I I've heard said this, that you know, it's it all is coming from the way that you view things. Um is there a different mindset that you've seen work better um when it comes to, and even if you want to compare and contrast the mindset of leading a extreme, like a mega church versus a normal church, what would what would be some of the the mindset um differences if you were to compare the two?
SPEAKER_03I think the church that's normal-sized with a normal-sized pastor probably has a more tender heart. Sorry, churches of big pastors of big churches, but uh church pastors of normal-sized churches are in the hospital at least three or four times a week. Yeah. You know, Bob Schuler, who was the pastor at Crystal Cathedral and probably the father of all church growth strategy in the in the North America at least, he to his dying day, and he wasn't perfect, but he said, I always go to the hospital once a week. I don't ever want to lose sight of what people are actually going through. And and uh pastors of big churches, we insulate them, and necessarily so, but they're the best speakers in the world tend to be introverts and observers. Like it's just it's a weird thing. Like there the number of introverts that are the stand-up comedian world that's introverted, it's the vast majority. Like there's something about public presentation that draws introverts. You don't get that luxury when you're a pastor of a normal-sized church. You're in people's lives, you're at the hospital. Um, and and frankly, that buys you a lot of grace.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I followed a pastor one time who was literally the Jedi knight of being two places at once. I think he could be two places at once. He listened to the and he was a great guy, but preaching was not his strength. And I never heard anything about it. They're like, oh, but Pastor was there when my kid was born. Oh, pastor was there. So, in a lot of ways, you've got more credibility in a normal-sized church because you're in their lives than someone that's really good at the big thing. And I'm a believer in big churches. Yeah, I'm sounding like I'm slamming them, but I'm actually trying to say there's a beautiful life that most American Protestant churches live that gets lost in the shadows sometimes.
SPEAKER_01That's great. That's great. Of those aspects of church, money, time, staff, uh, people, uh, which of those do you think creates the most pressure for the normal-sized church? And what difference is again is that are those compared to the mega? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, people would say money. Yeah. No. Every fast growing mega church I know is out of money all the time. Yep. And it's kind of like uh Sam Walton's kids said, We have we thought we didn't know we had any money because every time we got money, Daddy just opened another store. And so they never really got any other price. And that's life in a big, fast growing church. The pay is not, it's not, you know. So all has to say, you know, the the big, super fast growing churches don't have the quality of life that the the more normal-sized church has. And and I would say if you want to flourish in the normal-sized church, quit trying to be what you're not. Be in among the people. Yeah. Live there, live with them, smell like the sheep, be more human. I think you're going to see that become way more of a gold standard going forward than delivering a nice message. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Let me ask you this too, because the church model that um has become extremely popular in the last, I mean, 30 years is the multi-site streaming into one live communicator who is just gonna preach the paint off the walls and is just better than 99.9% of other communicators out there. And so who cares if you're watching a video of him or whether you're in person? Do you think that model is sustainable? And do you think that churches will, I know we're kind of going a little off topic, but do you think churches will maybe draw away from that? Do you think the churches who have, you know, 50 locations are going to say, okay, we're just gonna split off into 50 different churches once a personality, once that speaker, communicator, personality is maybe transitioning to a different role or, you know, just retiring, I guess.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. All very good questions. And it it does lead back to it's hard being pastor of a normal-sized church when you see all these all the life church is opening in a location down the road, we're dead, you know. Um, here's what I would say. Throughout church history, we've always had big churches and we've always had normal-sized churches. And the big always get bigger. And I mean, best example of this, the early church, there were five patriarchal sees, S-E-E-S, five seats for there were the megachurches. And it was Antioch, it was Alexandria, it was uh Constantinople, it was Jerusalem, and I'm leaving one out. Anyway, it was Rome, and Rome became the first among the five, and then came the Vatican. I mean, there's always been a massive church that doesn't relate to the normal-sized church. It's never gonna be either or. So will the will there be will those multi-site churches keep growing? Absolutely. Yep. Same reason Chick-fil-A keeps growing. They've got a franchise that appeals to a certain person and it works really, really well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's not the same. I think an interesting question about big or little, it's not will there be big churches. There always have been, there always will be, but the value proposition in Protestant USA, we're bigger because we have a better communicator. Yep. I think that'll be true for 10, 15, 20 churches, but but not much more than what could fit on an old American top 40 show. Like you the the the super great preachers will have a lot hundreds of locations. Yep. I don't think that's where everybody's gonna go to church. I think they're gonna want to hear not one message for all of however many locations, but hey, Pastor, what happened on our block this week? Yep, that's really good. There is a suicide at our high school. Are we gonna talk about that or not? And and the multi-site model with one communicator, there's no way to do that. No, impossible. So, you know, it if I were at a normal-sized church feeling like all my people are just listening to Matt Chandler or Steve Furtick or one of the masterful communicators that's out there, they probably are. But you can give them a message if you'll change your expectation. I'm a normal-sized church, I'm a normal-sized pastor, I know my sheep better than most pastors. Let me, God open the word for me in my particular neighborhood. You can get Google News for a fraction of a zip code.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What happened on our block this week, and how do I talk about that? In some way, every every week, there's something about what God's word says for what happened in our neighborhood. You will never ever get replaced if you'll do that. And the normal church will be the unique, handcrafted experience. It's almost like, why fight them all when you can build a farm-to-table message every week?
SPEAKER_01That's really great. That's really great. Why do you think it is that so many pastors overlook those strengths of a quote-unquote normal church? Of why why do you think it is that many pastors find themselves feeling dissatisfied when pastoring a normal-sized church?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Simulustus et picator is the Latin. And it just means always at the same time, fully a sinner, fully a saint. Everything we do. So why do uh normal sized churches? I've been a pastor of a normal-sized church. We had 140 when I arrived there. And I I remember uh part of my discontent was holy and was me being a saint at all times. And that was somebody died tonight into a hopeless eternity right here in my zip code. Yep. And I could have been part of fixing that. That's a holy discontent. We need to reach more people because no one needs to go to hell and heaven needs to be overpopulated. Like, that's a holy discontent. We're always at the same time sinners and saints, the sinner in me. Why do normal size? Why not? Why do men build skyscrapers that are taller than the one next to them? Why do we build edifices? Like, because we want to build something permanent. Why did we build a golden calf? We want a God we can see. Yeah. So it's always those two things together. And I think if you can just get honest with the fact that nobody is 100% center, 100% if you can have a holy discontent and want to reach people for Jesus, that's perfect. If you can realize that you're going to be tempted to try and be as big as your friends, what you're running these days, what's your attendance? Like then I think you'll you'll you'll find that your normal sized church can be one of the most beautiful assignments God could give. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01Do you think that for a pastor who maybe is trying to lead in a way, because it's like you've mentioned, it's a different way that you're leading, it's a different group of people that you're leading from volunteer to likely paid staff in a larger context. What would you say to the pastor who's maybe trying to lead like it's a mega, but is would be better off leading in the current context of just the reality of, hey, it's just a it's just a normal church.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, I think that the enemy of the church would love to convince pastors that some jobs are easier than others. But the challenges of the big church are the same as the small.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And uh, you know, financial, it's there. You know, I know there are a hundred people in this church, but it feels like there are four people I have to keep happy or everything blows up. Same's true in a big church, it's just 40 instead of four. And it doesn't change. So like if you can wrap your mind around the fact that um it's not any better somewhere else, it's just different. Yep. Then I think you can you can root some of that out. But at the end of the day, we're all, you know, the hard man is deceitful above all things. We're always gonna be a little envious of those who had a few more than we did.
SPEAKER_01What would you say to the as far as in the megachurch context, there is the I've heard the saying, as you get larger, you have to get smaller. Um, small groups is a way that a lot of big churches do that. Um, what are some ways that you maybe seen uh a normal-sized church who is, you know, hopefully going about it in the the mindset of the more more so leaning on the saint of we need to um find some ways to reach our city. We need to find some ways to reach the people. Yeah. How have you seen that played out? Yeah, so this is really interesting.
SPEAKER_03I was talking to a young, normal-sized church that's growing pretty quickly, client of ours. And I'm like, well, and they're they're drawing a lot of people your age in, okay. And so what'd you do? What we surveyed and studied, and what are people really dying for in this? And and what we heard over and over was community.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_03They really wanted to be around people, they didn't have anywhere to go. Yeah, they hadn't started their family yet. They did so they're not going home. They're not going to so they want to be a part of a group. So, you know, we've tested further and asked them about small groups, and do they want to do that? No, that'd be weird. I I don't want to go share my darkest secrets with 12 people. I I just want to be in a space where I can, you know, it doesn't have to be small. And so we've come up with this new idea. And what we think we're gonna do on Sunday mornings, we're gonna let groups of about 30 or 40 of these people get together and see if we can create a third space for them. Starbucks used to use that language. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, where they they'll see that as they're tethering, it's gonna be awesome. We're gonna call it mid-sized groups. What do you think, William? And I said, I think you just described Sunday school.
SPEAKER_01Go for it, you gotta go back. Right?
SPEAKER_03And they're like, what's that? I'm like, oh wow. So wow. So so in the normal sized church, you probably have classroom space.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. There really is a resurgence in the need for 30 or 40 people that know each other well enough to check on them. Yep. Maybe we're not sharing our deepest, darkest stuff. But you know, when the boomers invented the small group, it was a great idea for people that had all these superficial places, but nothing that go deep. Yeah. I think it's the reverse problem now. You've got a very lonely generation, the most connected ever, and the most lonely. And if you can create event, our daughter's fiance is staying with us this week because he's starting his job in Houston and then he's moving pretty soon. I was worried about what we were gonna do with him last night. He he had gone out to Plucker's chicken to play like a trivial pursuit game or something that they have ever. Wow. That's why you're going, oh yeah, yeah. No, I can be with 20 or 30 people I know, and we're doing a thing. Yeah. So you're building normal-sized church pastor, probably has education space that modern big church does not have. You could create this whole sense of community of groups of 20, 30, 40 people that will really fit for creating hitting the one felt need of people in that group you want. And uh it, you know, you don't have to go reinvent the wheel or try and do what the coolest, latest is. Sometimes to go forward, you gotta go back. That's so good.
SPEAKER_01That's so good. William, before we close, I just want to open it to you. Um, is there any last thoughts or comments just about the pastor who is pastoring just a normal church that maybe is finding some discontentment and desiring um a larger church?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, be careful what you pray for. Um I've served in both. I've got I've been lucky to get to know great people in all the churches I've served. There's something really special about being able to look out on Sunday at everybody in the room and know their name and know a little bit about their story. I think that's a little closer to how Jesus led. He did the big gatherings, but what he really poured into was a small, normal-sized church of followers. And uh don't don't look poorly on the small things. Yeah. You know, don't despise the small things. Uh, God's there as much as He's anywhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's so good. Well, Pastors, we thank you for listening. Leaders, we thank you for listening. Maybe what you're leading is not small, it's just normal, and you can find satisfaction in that today.
SPEAKER_00Thanks again for joining us on the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you're looking for more leadership resources, you can find us at Vanderblumen.com and on socials at Vanderblumen. We'll see you again next week where we continue discussing how to build, run, and keep great teams.