Thinking Outside the Box: How Great Leaders Solve Problems Differently

In this episode of the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast, executive search consultant Ivette Naron shares practical and inspiring insights for leaders who want to think differently. From understanding the difference between problems and tensions, to using the "Six Thinking Hats" method for creative solutions, Ivette unpacks tools leaders can use to break out of the cycle of reactive problem-solving.

Whether you're leading a church, nonprofit, or business, this conversation will challenge you to:

• Step out of the weeds and gain organizational altitude
• Create margin for reflection (not just reaction)
• Embrace feedback as a friend, not an enemy
• Build a culture that supports collaborative problem-solving

If you're ready to lead with clarity and creativity, this episode is for you.

📖 Explore more leadership resources at vanderbloemen.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast, where we help you build, run, and keep great teams. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Hey everyone, welcome into today's episode. We're gonna be talking about how to think outside of the box when it comes to your leadership. And someone who does that very, very well is joining us. Better than most anyone that I can think of. Um, as we can get started today, could you maybe just introduce yourself to our listeners and even talk about how you ended up here at Vanderblumen?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Well, thank you uh for having me, Jared. I guess if you're gonna be known for something, solving problems is a good thing to be known for. So I I'm very uh excited about that. Um so I'm all I've been with Vanderblumen a little over uh right about about three years. And and to be honest, uh Vanderblumen recruited me. So that's how I know executive search works. Yes. Um but before that I was pretty much in ministry um for 15 years and just thoroughly loved it. Um and if you've worked in ministry, you've probably ran into a couple of problems here and there. Um so yeah, that's that's a little bit about me and my background.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

That's great. Um, you know, a lot of times in ministry and organizations and a lot of contexts of leaderships, um, leaders can get caught maybe solving the same problem over and over and over again. Sound like a record, right? That's right. Going around and around, and it's just a cyclical problem. What what are some of the characteristics or traits that you maybe notice in organizations, churches, or even leaders who end up having to solve the same problem over and over and over again?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Right. No, that is uh that is a great question, and and really I kind of see it uh there's a couple different things that I tend to see.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

The first is um the leader um just doesn't have enough altitude in in the organization. And what I mean by that is they're not able to see the big picture, they're too much into the day-to-day operations, um, that they're day, they just don't have the altitude. They don't have the big picture, they can't, they're too much into the weeds, and so therefore, they can't see the problem clearly. So that's that's one of the things. I think another um, you know, uh aspect of it is do we know what problem we're truly solving, right? Sometimes we think we're we need to solve this, but really what we need to solve is this over here. And I mean, I'll even just kind of share a little bit of a story with that. You know, I remember one time we were, you know, just uh making some changes in our org chart. And um, you know, we had one change and then we did another change and then we did another change, and then we realized the problem is not the org chart. We just don't have the people in the right seat. We were solving the wrong problem, right? And so when you begin to see the same problem just re-emerge themselves, it's you're you're not solving the right thing, right? And I think probably the last, you know, I guess common mistake that I see a lot of times, and I have to catch myself many times is is this truly a problem that needs to be solved? Or is this attention that needs to be managed?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Because be as a leader, you have to be able to differentiate between the two. That's really good because nothing will frustrate you more than when you realize you're trying to fix attention. Attention cannot be fixed, attention just needs to be managed. And um, you know, I can I'm remembering even in my ministry days, I remember, you know, I started off at a you know pretty small church, one service, and then one service goes to two services, and two services goes to three, and then we're like, okay, well, when we're gonna church plant, like we're just figuring things out. And one of the problems that you have when you're growing really fast is space. We're running out of space.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

And I remember we had three ministries operating out of one hallway, and they have one kind of storage kind of closet, and of course, three people in one that's not gonna cause any problems, right? Like, no, whatsoever, right? Of course, there's there's there's problems, right? But is it really a problem or is it a tension, right? Yeah, the solution is I can't go build another building. Yeah, I'm not kicking a ministry out. So it's a tension that we have to manage.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

It's really good.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Um, and I think and you and and realizing that not all these problems can be solved, but that they there's tensions that need to be managed. But on the flip side, when there are solving a problem, there are some problems that um I guess I should say there are some, there is very seldom is there a problem-free solution.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

The solution sometimes that you have to come up with, it's just gonna have a set of pro a little set of problems, and you just have to figure out which set of problems am I willing to deal with and live with, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Really good.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

It's leaders fall into this trap of trying to find, again, like a you know, a problem-free solution. And those are sometimes very, very hard to find. So I always say, okay, which set of problems can I deal with? And really for me, I I tend to think, okay, what doesn't drain my energy as much? And what doesn't drain or is a distraction to the mission, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:27

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Those kind of two things kind of help in in trying to kind of figure um that out. Um when going kind of a little back to the um, you know, our little storage room. I remember we have these three ministries operating out of it, and you know, tensions are a little high. I was thinking of myself, this is a tension we gotta, you know, manage on a problem I can solve.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

But I remember I went in there and uh, you know, I said, I know, yeah, it does look like it's getting a little crowded in here. I said, How about this? You know, 10%, that's a very godly number. It is, it is. I said, I think we just probably need to maybe what if each ministry just kind of donates 10% of their stuff. We gotta clear this out, you know. And and the the primary offender of the three kind of step forward and said, Well, we can, but you know, I just want you to know that like it's really me. Like, I'm causing a lot of this.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

And I realized like uh right then and there, and I know for some leaders are thinking, well, that would never happen in my ministry. Like they would just be thrown, you know, that might not happen. But I think I realized right then and there in that moment, um, sometimes, you know, because we had the right culture, that was able to happen. But if we didn't have the right culture, people would think, well, that would never happen in our ministry. We'll be I'd be like, well, you don't have a space problem. Yeah, we have a culture problem because somebody wouldn't be willing to maybe kind of you know step forward in that space and say, Really, I'm kind of like the primary offender of this. Like that's great. I don't really want, can we think of something else? So um, but yeah, I know I've just given you a lot of information on in just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

I think that's I think that's so great. One of the things that you mentioned is when leaders get stuck too much in the weeds, and you know, we have a lot of senior level leaders listening in today, and I think something that a lot of times uh senior leaders can get stuck in is working in the business versus working on the business. And that's kind of what you uh pointed at there is when you get too stuck in the weeds that you can't work towards improving the actual business, church, organization itself. Um what are maybe some tips or some maybe insights into how leaders can get out of the weeds and get up to that altitude space? Is it people? Is it is it what is it?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah, no, well, I think as a leader you have to realize some problems are not your problems to solve.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

That's good.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Um that's just why you have other people on your team, you know. Um you get pulled into the into the weeds because um either you know you feel like you need to be in that space, but that's truly not your problem to solve. So I think knowing what is yours, what is yours to own, and what is for your team to own is really probably the most important thing to kind of realize so that you don't get sucked into that.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

That's really good. That's a great point. Um really what you're getting at there is the power of reflecting and re reflecting as a leader of a team and becoming aware of the reality of your organization. Um, I know you had a really interesting uh, we were talking a little bit beforehand, and you have you have a great story about a church that you recently worked with that was able to do this. Could you maybe share that that story?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, so um, yeah, we were I was working with the church, and we you know you you find a candidate, they fall in love with them, and I think everything is going great. We get to the very end, and the candidate says, thanks, but no thanks. I said, Oh, okay, that was rough. So we go back at it again, we find their candidate, we, you know, they're in love again. It's just amazing, you know. Well, yes, we're gonna find a their person, and then you know, that person backed out. And so, you know, I I had to stop and think, and I had some, I had I I I had an idea of maybe why these candidates backed out, but the church, you know, comes to me and says, you know, what what's happened? What's wrong with us? Like, why are they telling us no? I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

And I said, Well, why don't we ask the candidates? Let's find out, let's get some feedback, you know. Uh let me kind of do that on your behalf. That's kind of part of part of the reason why you kind of hired us too. Is let me let me do that heavy lifting for you. Yes. I got some feedback from them, and then I realized, okay, we've got to, we've there's some changes that we've got to make. Um and the changes even included expectations, um, a little bit on salary. Um even on the search committee, I think people forget that when you're we think interviewing is a two-way street, right? The church is interviewing the candidate, but the candidate is also getting to know you and how you're treating them and how is this process, and are you getting back to them and all of these things and how that went. So we needed to kind of shake up a couple of things and in and even in the people that the candidate was uh, you know, at first interacting and those first impressions and how we move them. So we had to, and we, you know, we even changed the job title because we changed some job expectations, and then we got it right the third time, right? But the definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different, you know, that wasn't gonna work. Um, so but it it really what I loved about this church is they were willing, they reflected, right? We're not gonna, we need to stop and we need to figure out, you know, what's not working. Um we got feedback, and um, I will tell you, feedback is your friend, not your enemy. It's good. Um, as leaders, we we you know, we're so used to always giving feedback. Um, or and and sometimes receiving feedback is is a little hard. Um it kind of tends to fall into two categories. We don't want to receive feedback because we're constantly getting feedback and we're kind of numb to it, you know, like everybody's always telling me something like I'm just tired of listening. Or we really don't want to know because they couldn't possibly know what it's like to sit in these seats. And both of those are just such dangerous places for a leader to be. Yeah, you've you've got to be good at receiving feedback. Um and so I was very thankful that they allowed that and were open to that. Um and and then, you know, God gets the glory.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

That's right. That's right. And it really goes back to you're you're going outside of the box to try to find a solution. Uh we, you know, I mentioned we talked a little bit beforehand, and you you uh made a note about something that I personally had never heard about before, and that was the six different thinking hats. And I find this absolutely fascinating about the different hats that we need to wear as leaders and the different ways we need to think. Could you maybe share some of the insights that you've seen with that?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, yeah. And it's one that uh, you know, as leaders, we we wear different hats, right? And you know, we can put on a couple hats. But I realize there's really, and I didn't come up with this somebody else smarter than I did, but I've like taken it as my own and I use it all the time. But um, you know, there's kind of six thinking caps, like I've got to put them on, or I've got to get people on my team that are that are have these caps on. And yeah, and really as a leader, if you can kind of work your way around that, that's it's it's phenomenal. But you know, the first one I call it is like just you know, very simple. Your your white hat is I do I have all the information, all the facts, all the details that I need in order to be able to solve the problem, right? I need the information, I need the details, right? Um, then you kind of have to put on your your I call the, I think it's the red, the red hat is your what what is my gut? What is my initial emotional reaction to solving this problem or hearing about this problem? What is my gut telling me? That intuition, you've got to listen to that as well.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Um, then you've got to put on um call it the black hat, the devil's advocate hat, you know, like what are the risks? What are the obstacles? All the things that I need to anticipate that could, you know, um the potential things that could go wrong. Yes. Um, you know, what are people gonna say? All of that. That's your black hat. Um my favorite hat to wear.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

The yellow hat, of course. The yellow hat is your optimistic hat. It's kind of a little bit about personality, but um, you know, what are the benefits? What are the values? When we solve this, like what are what are more opportunities that we're gonna have with this? Like you have to think that way. You can't just be in in the black hat, so to speak. Um, the green hat is you kind of put it on and you say, okay, um, what is something that's never been done before in this? And that's a very scary question to ask, especially in ministry. Yeah, because we love new ideas in ministry sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Not so much, not so much.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Right? But what is something? So if I want to revamp my guest services, like what's something that's never been done before and and really think through that. Um and then of course, your is your last or your is your blue hat is am I thinking about this the right way? Do I have the right people in the room? Did I put on all the hats? As I thought it through. Um, am I solving the right problem? Or am I um just creating this extra work for me? Nothing can be much more frustrating than to realize you were trying to solve a problem that was it really even a problem that needed to be solved? Was it attention that needed to be managed? Or was it just like an opinion? You know, I remember one time when I was in um ministry, we were again, we we thought we had this problem at this uh event. And at the end of the day, it wasn't a problem, it was just we were just tired of doing the event. We were trying to find a problem, we were just exhausted. But here's the deal everybody loved it. Um we it it was yielding results. We were just tired is really what the problem. But so here we were just solving a problem that probably just needed all the answer was go rest.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Yeah, right, go take a break.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Change the event, trying to move it, trying to do this and that. Yeah. When there was nothing wrong with the event, it was the way we were just always doing it. We were exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yep, that's great. We should add a seventh hat, and that's just a pillow. Just go take a go take a nap. Go take a look at and then come back to the problem. That's so funny. That's right. That's right. That's right. As we kind of come to a close today, you know, we've talked a lot about different ways that leaders can go about solving problems and putting on different hats and thinking about different ways to approach um the problems, or maybe even the problems that they don't need to be solving. Um, do you have any lasting tips that we can give or insights that we can give to our to our listeners today as we kind of wrap up this idea of thinking outside of the box to solving problems in leadership?

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Right. Um well, in order to be able to kind of think outside of the box, you you really need to make sure that you have margin in order to do that too. And that's very important. Because if not, um you know, leaders need to be spend time reflecting and not reacting.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

That's right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

And it and it if you don't have margin, then you're just reacting. And sometimes some leaders think, oh, I'm just such a great problem solver. And I'm like, you're it it's you're really just managing chaos. That's what you're doing. Like you're not really solving problems, we're just managing chaos. Right? So be sure that you have margin um and and build that actually into your calendar, like literally put think time, reflecting time, um, into your calendar. Um, you know, we can go from meeting to meeting, meeting. And sometimes I'm bad about this when they're like, oh, my think time is in the shower or on my commute. No, I'm literally talking, what it needs to be in my calendar, not while I'm doing something else. Yeah. Um, those are great times too, but if we could get to a place where we actually put it on our calendar like we schedule a meeting, I think that is to be able to think outside of the box, you need to have that time. And then ultimately, one of the and then again, I want to go back to just being open to feedback. I think not getting that feedback fatigue that some leaders kind of if you can be okay with that, because nothing is um, you know, more dangerous to I think sometimes than leaders because when leaders can't be questioned, they end up doing questionable things. And and it's it's and it's it's sadly it's happened over and over again. You know, be approachable. It's feedback can really be your friend if you if you let it. Um and so I think those would kind of, if I had to pick two, those would kind of be my my final parting words, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Those are great, those are great. It takes a level of humility, I think, really, to do what you're saying and to realize, hey, maybe this problem we don't need to be solving, this problem's maybe not mine, you know, and and and being able to receive that feedback, especially and not getting that feedback fatigue. I think that's so great.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Can I share with you one more story? I love sharing stories. You know, one the way I learned best, that's why I love reading um the parables because every time Jesus tells a story, I'm like, I get it, I get it. One time I was working with another leader and we wanted to get feedback on an event. We want to get feedback on the content, yes, we want to get feedback on the food, the schedule, on everything. And so we're, you know, creating the survey and all of these questions, like, and we're so we want to see how we end in each of the areas. And I remember we got to one part of the survey, and then the leaders like, we don't need to ask that. I'm like, well, why why why are we skipping that part? Like, why, why, why don't we, you know, and and I'll never forget they said, um, I don't want to know the answer to that, you know, and that's what we I don't, I just don't want leaders to end up there. Don't, don't, I mean, that was just and you know, of course, I wanted to ask more questions about that, but I said I was not in that position yet, but I thought this is a conversation that we're gonna have to continue at another time.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

But yeah, so yeah, it's really being secure and almost unoffendable, which is so valuable, really valuable in ministry and business and organizations. I think that's so great. Yeah. Well, hey leader, thank you so much for being able to spend some time with us. I hope that today's conversation helps you to be able to think outside of the box about the problems that you're solving, or maybe even realizing that it's not a problem, but attention that you need to manage. Thanks again for joining us on the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you're looking for more leadership resources, you can find us at Vanderblumen.com and on socials at Vanderblumen. We'll see you again next week where we continue discussing how to build, run, and keep great teams.