AI in the Church: Threat, Tool, or Opportunity? | William Vanderbloemen

In this episode of the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast, Jared sits down with William Vanderbloemen to explore how church leaders can wisely navigate the rise of AI and other emerging technologies. From sermon preparation to staffing decisions, they discuss where AI fits into ministry—and where it doesn't.

Key discussion points include:

• AI in the Pulpit: Should pastors use AI to help build sermons? What's ethical and what's helpful?

• Human-First Ministry: Why the future of the church will depend on real human connection more than ever before.

• The Echo of Worship: What makes in-person ministry irreplaceable, even in a digital world.

• Hiring in the Age of AI: How churches and values-based organizations can future-proof their teams by investing in relationally gifted leaders.

• Tech-Savvy Leadership: Why every senior leader needs someone on their team who understands the digital landscape—and how to protect your data.

Whether you're excited about AI or overwhelmed by it, this conversation will help you stay grounded in your mission while adapting to the future.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast where we help you build, run, and keep great teams. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

AI is everywhere, and now it is even in most churches today. William, you know, we made a reel a little while back about how we get the Tesla robots to come to church talking about AI in the church today. Do you have any initial thoughts about how what's what's the temperature? Warm, cold, are you for, against?

SPEAKER_03 0:33

So interesting. So you had some stats of pastors that I did are like, I'm never gonna use what what were you telling me?

SPEAKER_02 0:40

It was so 77% of pastors believe God can work through AI tools, but only six percent would use AI for pastoral care.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

See, I think they're they're fooling themselves. Okay. Hey, pastoral care guy. You ever use a thermostat to help somebody feel a little better? Yeah. That's been AI for a long, long, long time. Yeah. It makes adjustments based on what it senses without any human interaction, just a plain old thermostat. I think uh, you know, I'm old enough that I grew up with Arnold and I'll be back and the Trump Vader and all that. So everybody my age that's afraid of everything right now anyway, because the world's moving so much faster. You know, there are a lot of people worked up over new technology that is actually an extension of a lot of things we've already been doing for a long time. So yeah. Yeah. I I don't know that you're gonna get to decide whether or not you're going to use AI. I think the question is, how are you going to use AI? So it's been the question with every technological breakthrough in church history. Yeah. How are we going to use this? Not are we going to?

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Yeah. I think that's great. Uh, how do you feel even about um for a lot of our leaders are uh or listeners, our pastors, and even when it comes to content building, um how do you feel about using AI in that process? How much are we involving AI, if any, in the process of content building and um sermon building even?

SPEAKER_03 2:17

Yeah, sure. Well, uh first of all, uh you if you're pastoring today, you've got it a lot harder than when I was a pastor, right? Um but we didn't have, you know, oh, I'm worried that people are gonna think my content came from AI, or will people find out that I'm using content that I didn't write? Welcome to preaching. I mean, there used to be there were these things called magazines. Oh, way back when? Yeah, back in the printed world.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

And people would subscribe to magazines with just sermon illustrations in them. That's great. And you would be looking for your where is my illustration I'm gonna use on Sunday, and you'd find it. And did you write it? No. Did you use it? Yes. Yeah. And you know, a watchmaker once sat down to you know, these old school illustrations. So for years and years and years, pastors have been under the gun to say, how am I gonna find something that's gonna be relatable? Now, a lot of people plagiarize, a lot of people don't give credit where credit's due, a lot of people don't do any work at all. I think that's gonna become more and more easy to spot than it has in the past. Yeah. But wow, what an opportunity because AI cannot yet comment on what the Bible has to say about what's happening in your specific neighborhood this particular week.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yeah, that's really good.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Beating that drum since the pandemic ended, the you know, the new skill set for pastors is actually going to be the old school skill set. It's knowing your people, it's smelling like the sheep, it's preaching to them about what's going on in their life. Yeah. And and AI can't generate that. That's not true. Can AI take your discommobulated thoughts that you have scratched out and put them in an outline form? Yeah, that could happen. Yeah. And I you wouldn't preach to me with that outline and tell me I've had these thoughts. I did use AI to help organize them, but I would be kind of proud of you for doing that. Yeah. Because a lot of pastors have fleeting thoughts, but no way to bring cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. There was a so I was doing some research and I found in Germany um there was a congregation or a service, I guess, of about 300 or so people that attended a service fully run by AI generated people. Had them up on a screen, and it was people giving it, giving a sermon. I think they may have sang a song or two. Um, to me, that feels like maybe taking AI a little takes the human element of using AI with a human touch out of it a little bit. Would you agree with that? Or would you say, you know, use, you know, to something like that could be effective in a certain context?

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Well, people are endlessly fascinating. Yeah. So are there some people that would like that and we draw them closer to Jesus? Okay, maybe. So maybe that works. Yeah. I kind of think, you know, it's it's funny. I've always said, and I've I've mentioned this before on the podcast, I've always said, wouldn't it have been a cool time to live when Da Vinci lived? You know, the Renaissance is going on, we're coming out of the dark ages, and all this invention and new thought is happening. Wouldn't that have been cool? Yeah, we're kind of in a season that's gonna make that look a little bit like a non-event. We're in that season. And in seasons of innovation, historically in the church, yeah. I I this is terrible theology, so please just just hear me as a you know middle-aged dude who was once a preacher and trying to remember some things. But the theology that I see in the greater parts of church history is when there's a technological breakthrough, that's the predecessor to a kingdom breakthrough. Yeah. So printing press happens, Luther gets Bibles in everybody's hands. You know, Rome builds roads, Paul plants churches. There's anytime there's a technological, particularly a communication breakthrough, there's a kingdom breakthrough coming. And I think in this imperfect world, during those seasons, which we're living in one right now, I kind of think God gives a little more credit for making the effort than for doing it the way it's always been done.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

And I I somebody just unsubscribed, you know, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I mean, like it's not like I'm saying change the gospel, but I kind of think God's gonna say, I gave you one of the most unique seasons in history to try and share the good news of a risen savior. What risk did you take? Kind of like the story of the manager gave 10 talents to everybody, and some of them were turned 10, some five, the other one buried it in the ground. Some people are burying in the ground and um not cool. Now, back to would I go to a church with 300 people that and it's all AI driven? I I have been to some churches where it appears that everyone up there is so perfect that it might be AI, but that that's probably a different podcast. No, here's what I think the image of God, which we're seeking in worship, you're not gonna find it, you know, here on earth, right? Yeah. The closest you get to it's looking another human in the eye. We were made a little lower than the angels. We were made in his image. And so while I don't sing in perfect tune, you know, the reason uh I'll I'll borrow from my friend Eric Geiger, who we had the honor of helping find uh his way to Mariner's church several years ago now. And I was talking to Eric about uh virtual worship during the lockdowns and everything. He said, here's the thing, man, if you gotta use it, you gotta use it. But but let me just tell you, the reason we like worship, even though we're not as diverse a church as we need to be and we don't sing in tune, when we're getting it right, you get just a little echo of what heaven's gonna be like. That's so good. It's because it's when everybody can sing, it's when there's full diversity, it's when there's one thing that we're all worshiping and nothing else. You just get an echo of that when worship is done right. So the problem with online worship is now you're getting an echo of the echo. And I think it's probably somewhat true with AI-driven church right now. If everything in there is not human-produced at all, it's like, eh, am I getting an echo of the image of God this way? Maybe at best an echo of an echo of an echo. But um, I I don't know. I'm all for trying new things, but I don't think it'd be my deal. And I don't think it gets you as close to what uh God calls us to in worship as being with real people.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Yeah, that's so good. As uh someone who leads an organization, um, a business, you know, you're on the senior level of leadership. A lot of our listeners are pastors or maybe CEOs and value-based business or nonprofit kind of worlds. Uh a lot of them are maybe uh fascinating. You know, this is a new, this is a new technology, like you said. And the choice of bringing it and implementing it into the process, into the systems that we're using, uh, is is uh definitely a decision that one needs to make. How much um I I guess even in in our context, you've endorsed the use of AI for to make things that's simpler for us. Yes. Um for pastors and maybe just business leaders and stuff like that, would you suggest to them uh endorsing AI and like do you see AI maybe even replacing some jobs and uh in the church world and and maybe even uh business alike?

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Yeah, so um if you look at how innovation has changed the workforce through throughout history. Yeah you know, uh was it was it Mark Twain that said uh history doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme. That's good. So it does tend to rhyme. And when we've had technological breakthroughs, does it do away with human jobs? Yeah, some. Yeah. Does it create more new human jobs? Almost always. I don't know what that'll be. I would not want to be like working in a call center right now for support because that's not looking great, right? Yep. Or even coding. Like you used to be a high commodity. As a coder, in five, ten years you might not have a job. Yeah, so there are sectors where it's gonna go away. But in the church world, what it's going to create is deeper hunger than ever for human-to-human connection.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

That's so good.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Because you just can't get that out of AI or true human-to-human connection. So, what I'm telling people is you need to up your ante on your very best team members or employees, whether you're a value-space business or a nonprofit or school, or especially a church. Talking compensation or talking pay more money to fewer people. And what are you looking for?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

You're looking for people who get along with other humans remarkably well. That's so good. And and because, you know, yes, your worship leader needs to be able to carry a tune. Yep. Yes, your pastor needs to divide the word, but beyond a few really particular skill sets, most of church work is recruiting, training, and retaining volunteers. Yeah. And that's getting along with people, getting people to do something for you when they don't have to. Like that's the art of moving Team Jesus forward, right? Right. And that uh will become more and more in demand. It's it's what we noticed when we wrote Be the Unicorn. The things that top performers have in common are not traits, they're not things they're born with, it's basically how they treat other humans. That's so good. And I I think that we're gonna see as AI uh creates more efficiency in this world, but also more uh a more sterile feel to the world. Like it's not as human to human. The people who can relate human to human, they're gonna they're gonna be way out in front. And churches that will focus on that will come out way out in front. And they'll turn their ministries not toward just content production, but toward human-to-human interaction, those are the ones they're gonna do really well. And and will AI take over everything? Uh let me just say, if AI were that advanced, why do we still have a weather forecast? Right? If AI were that advanced, I wouldn't be worried a bit about Adrian's cancer. Like if AI were really able to do everything right this minute, yeah. I just don't think we're quite there yet. Maybe it's not worth letting your blood pressure go up.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. I I think that for um some of those who uh some of us are leading teams where having a person on staff with an awareness of AI, and we even talked of an awareness of technology and of new technologies in the church. Is this a role? Um, you know, we we talked a little bit of like how how you really just need people on your team who are great at galvanizing people, of recruiting people. Is that another one that you could say is gonna become even more important in the future years of someone who kind of understands the times, I guess?

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Absolutely, 100%. And uh even down to little things like your AI person right now needs to be thinking, are we able to share if when you use AI, you're sharing your data with a computer.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Right. Do your church members want their data shared? Do they there's big, big potholes out there. Yeah. Because we have, as pastors, you have cell phone numbers, you have email addresses, you have giving records, you have credit cards on file, you have lots and lots and lots. So even down to how do we implement things now, it's it's uh there are gonna be new skill sets that are needed. Somebody can spot where are we uh leaving ourselves open and vulnerable by overusing our people's data. Yep. And then to your point, as things become more and more automated and the jobs continue to change, I think it will shift to how do I, and I this is the pedestrian way of saying it. How can I recruit, train, and retain an army of people to go do work for Jesus? And that that requires motivation, it requires vision, but it fundamentally requires you liking me enough to listen to me say, please do this, and I'm not gonna pay you.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah. So yeah, that's so good. Let's maybe shift the conversation to just kind of technology as a whole in the church. You know, something that um you've done a great job with here has been very much for new kind of, I guess, platforms or avenues of content, really. I remember when I came on team and they said, Jared, you're gonna start the TikTok. And you know, no one had started a TikTok. I think it was plural though, wasn't it? Tik TikToks, maybe. I I think that's probably they probably called it TikToks. And I've made since then a lot of TikToks, and I'm on go follow us, unashamedly plugging that. Um I I think that uh for a lot of church leaders, that's another area where that's you know, do we need to be on TikTok or do we need to have social media platforms? What do we need to be using? What do we not need to be using? What's going to be here in 10 years, what's going to be gone in six months? Uh I think that, and maybe you could speak to this as well, is that a role, an another one that kind of even in promotion of I guess kind of marketing almost, your your your church and your and your your business, your nonprofit, and the implementation of new technologies as they come. Is that again with AI, is that something you see as being very important?

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Oh, a hundred percent. It's knowing what to apply, how to apply it, when to pull out of a bad tech. Yeah. Vine. Does anybody remember it? Like, I mean that we vaguely, vaguely I can remember. Yeah. I don't think it's just try new things, try new things, try new things. But I do think it is, is this another way to reach people? Great example when Twitter came out in 2008, I think it was, which is when we started.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Weird, weird thing happened. And I think you can still find this in the Wall Street Journal or New York Times. Anyway, there's an article that came out a couple years after Twitter. That's what it was called before X.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

Even before the TikToks.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

That's right. Twitters.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

The art the Twitters. The article was noticing how pastors of big churches had a higher retweet per follower ratio than celebrities.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

So interesting.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Well, I thought so too. I said, why is that? They're not that you know, it's not the most interesting man in the world. Or you know, it's like, here's what I think. I think what will never go away is congregants want to feel like they know their pastor.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

That's yeah, very true.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

And they want to feel like they've been talked to by their pastors. Yeah, the pastor only gets 140 characters, but he gets to send something out, and then now it's a picture of a kid's graduation, or you you may not get to see the pastor, especially in a larger church setting. We work with nearly all of the largest churches, and you know, big thing is how do I let my people know that I really care about them even if I can't be around them. And giving some insight into your own life uh through social media creates a gateway for people to say, I don't get to see pastor very often, but yeah, I feel like I know, you know, I see I'm reading a book to his little girl before me. Yeah. So I I think the the times will change, but the felt needs won't, and the felt need to be seen, to feel like you know your pastor, those sorts of things. If you can find technology as a tool toward answering that need, more power to you.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

That's awesome. As we kind of close today, you know, we talked a lot about technology, a lot about AI and the implementation of it. What are just maybe some lasting words of advice that you could uh give to those in a senior leadership position about, you know, this kind of maybe area that they they feel like they are needing to learn how to navigate and maybe not don't feel as equipped, but understand the importance of having to learn more about that or or the use them. What are just some maybe lasting lasting tips?

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Yeah, here's here's one, especially for pastors. Um let a teen ministry small group meet at your house. Assuming you got small groups in your student ministry, let them meet in your house, open your home to them, just buy chicken nuggets. I mean, you know, like Chick-fil-A or whatever. You don't have to teach it, you don't have to, but I've watched pastors who are most in touch with technological changes are the ones who are also really serious about staying in touch with the next generation.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

And I tell people all the time, how do you know about this and the TikToks and that it's not plural and all that? I said, Well, we keep a teenager in the house all the time. So, you know, I'm always getting brought up to speed. So I think that if you're feeling a little overwhelmed, you're not alone. If you're feeling like the pace of the world is changing faster than ever before, you're not wrong, but you don't have to freak out. And maybe the quickest way to get, you know, in touch with what's happening is to reach down a generation or two. You've helped me enormously. And uh I I can't say enough good things about the pastors and the leaders I see who really get down in the trenches with the next generation and how much it helps them become better adapted to what's going on in the world. Every great revival that's happened in this country has started with teenagers. Well, every one of them in Jonathan Edwards' office asking questions, The Great Awakening. I mean, I could walk through so if you we're in the middle of a season where there's gonna be a breakthrough, why would you not want to be around the next generation? Yeah, you're worried about tech. They know the tech. So yeah, that'd be my one piece of advice.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

That's so good. They know the TikToks. They know the TikToks. They know the TikTok. That's so good. Well, hey, senior leader, if you're able to maybe reach down a little bit and get some of the insight of the younger generation, they can help you feel equipped for the new technology and even maybe even tell you how to get Tesla robots coming to church.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Thanks again for joining us on the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you're looking for more leadership resources, you can find us at Vanderblumen.com and on socials at Vanderblumen. We'll see you again next week where we continue discussing how to build, run, and keep great teams.