Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast
Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast
You Don't Need a Title to Lead—Here's Why | ft. Eugene Lee
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In this episode of the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast, Jared sits down with Eugene Lee, Director of Consulting at Vanderbloemen, to unpack what it really means to lead beyond your title. Together, they explore the kind of leadership that builds trust, inspires action, and creates lasting impact—not because of position, but because of influence.
Key discussion points include:
- Leadership Beyond the Title: Why a role or title alone isn't enough—and how true leadership is rooted in influence, not authority.
- Building Trust Through Relationships: How trust, not control, creates a thriving team culture.
- The Power of Self-Awareness: Why most leaders think they're self-aware (but aren't), and practical ways to get an honest view of yourself.
- Healthy Feedback Culture: How to both give and receive feedback in a way that builds people up and unlocks growth.
- Courageous Authenticity: What it looks like to lead with vulnerability—and why it might be your greatest leadership strength.
Whether you're leading a team of two or an entire organization, this episode will help you grow in influence, lead with authenticity, and build a culture of trust that goes far beyond your title.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Vander Bloom and Leadership Podcast, where we help you build, run, and keep great teams. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_02Well, hey, welcome. And this is Jared, and I am so, so excited for our topic of discussion today because it's something that is extremely important for every leader to understand. But more than that, I am absolutely thrilled to have on today with us Eugene Lee, the director of consulting here at Vanderbloemen. Eugene, welcome to the podcast. It is great to have you on.
SPEAKER_03It's great to actually finally be here with you. In person. In person. Yep. Because I know your voice and I know your face, and we've talked before, but um you're in the flesh. That's right.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for inviting me. Yes, of course. Thank you for spending some time with us today. Um, as we kind of get started, maybe just tell us a little bit of your story and even how you found yourself here at Vanderbloom.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, well, grew up, just thought I was gonna become a doctor someday. And so that was always the goal. Study math, science, go to college, go to med school. Um, was not happy at all going down that path. I I liked the subject matter, but it just it felt like something that I had to do, not what I wanted to do. Yeah. Um, and what I wanted to do, and this desire started growing in college was ministry. Like I loved campus fellowship, I loved the stuff we were doing at church. Um, you know, I loved doing kind of one-on-one discipleship with with people. And uh I found myself doing more of that than like organic chemistry and calculus and studying for my MCAT. And so after college, I took a hard pivot and went from being a chemistry major to a theology student. That's a quite a contrast. That was a bit of a pivot. Yeah. Um, and never looked back. And and so became a student pastor uh back many, many years ago, and then uh planted a church in the city of Boston, got to serve there for about nine years, and then um our family moved out to California to work at another church in the San Francisco Bay Area. Um, and then went through a leadership transition there and started thinking about what I wanted to do uh afterwards, and that's when the opportunity to join the team of Aner Blooming came out of the blue, actually. I wasn't even thinking about it. And uh I knew someone who knew someone who was here, and you know, they floated a name and it turned into a phone call and then a flight to Houston, and here I am, and it's been like, you know, two and a half years, so it's been a blast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's amazing. I love that story. Um, the when we were kind of discussing topics of discussion, the the one that we landed on was leading beyond a title. And I think a lot of times leaders, especially the higher up in the food chain, you know, we we see it all too often of leaders that maybe lead from a place of the title and not of out of a place of authenticity of where people are following them because of their title, not because of their values and their actions. Yeah. Could you maybe speak on just the importance of being able to lead from a place of people wanting and choosing to follow you, yeah, versus almost that having to or feeling like obviously the respect of the the title, right? But there's a difference in being led and leading from a title and leading from a place of a of authenticity almost as a leader.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. No, that's uh gosh, there's so much to unpack there. But I would say whether you already have the title or whether you want the title someday, yeah. Right. Because sometimes you are the leader, you know, you're the president, you're the pastor, you're the director, or you're the intern, right? Or you're the student and you want to have that title someday. I think what you have to realize is a title is just a platform. Yeah. You know, and leadership doesn't come from a platform. Yeah. Uh leadership comes from influence. And we talked about that, right? We were talking about a lot of John Maxwell's work that haven't has influenced us. And I worked for a leader once. She wrote an entire book about influence and the power of influence and how that is what organizations need, but that's also what shapes culture. And, you know, influence is only gained through relationship and uh trust and time spent with others. Um, and none of that happens automatically through a platform uh or title, even just because somebody has a title doesn't mean that they will trust you or follow you or believe in you or be inspired by you, right? And so I think leadership beyond a title is recognizing um relationships, influence, building trust, building rapport, being selfless, yeah, is is is critical to leadership beyond whatever title we want or whatever title we have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I love that so much. And I think one of the things that comes with when you have a title is the uh the kind of almost the power dynamic of when you are, you know, leadership is serving those beneath you. But maybe can you speak to that balance of leading those who are uh that you are uh in charge of or uh managing, but also balancing like the the being a friend and being, you know, like wanting to come to a place where you work where you're friends with people, right? But also recognizing, hey, it's my job to make sure that you do your job really well. Can you talk maybe to that that tension that so many leaders have to face?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Well, it is a tension because oftentimes when you have the title or you're the leader, as they say, it's lonely at the top. Yeah. Right. And there is that dynamic where when you are the person who makes the final decision or you're the person that holds the influence or carries the weight, you know, people will defer to you all the time. They'll tell you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. Um, and so whether or not you realize that, and let's say you're the kind you're the leader who wants to have that relationship and that friendship, when you're the person that carries that responsibility, people will change the way they behave around you. And so that's really hard to navigate sometimes. Yeah. Um, and we can be very blind to that. We can begin to think, oh, well, it's because I'm the smartest person in the room, or it's because I have the most experience, or I'm right and they're wrong. And then we can go down the spiral of self-deception. Yeah. Right. Um, and so whether we realize it or not, that dynamic is already at play. Um and then, you know, like uh having a title can make us feel entitled, right? Yes. Like I'm entitled to, you know, like be the one to say we're gonna go left or right, or this is the goal, or um yes or no, or start or stop. And and so I think the only way to break out of that self-deception that happens internally, the way that we see ourselves and the way other people begin to see us, is self-awareness.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. And we have to realize that if we're not aware of how people perceive us and how they experience us and how we experience them and how we perceive ourselves, it's so easy to get stuck in a trap.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Where that entitlement and that title um really is, at the end of the day, all that we have because we don't really have true influence. We just have blind loyalty.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um, people are not inspired, they're afraid, yeah, right. Or they're just, you know, um, you know, they're being selfish and they're saying yes for their own gain.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. Because they know that if you do what they say, it helps them. Um, but that's not the kind of leadership that can make a really deep exponential impact.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03You know, the lit the leadership that makes that kind of impact is when everybody believes in the vision, when everybody is committed to the mission. Yep. And that takes um a lot of humility, it takes a lot of self-awareness. Um, and again, the foundation of all of that is trust. Yeah. And trust is not built on a title, it's built on those relationships.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I love that. And kind of what you're speaking to there is uh when we have this kind of self-awareness, when leaders are able to have self-awareness, it helps bring clarity to how uh those that they are leading view them. What are maybe some tips, some maybe best practices that you've seen of how a leader can make sure that they are developing in self-awareness? You know, the Be the Unicorn did a study about um all the unicorns, and I think self-awareness was the one that like 90% of people said they're above average in, yeah. Um, of just not unicorns, of just like regular normal people, quote unquote. Yeah. Yeah. And so people think that they're great at self-awareness, but in reality, 90% is a lot more than that. So I I I what are maybe just some some ways that we can actually have a realistic view of ourselves as we are leading these teams.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. So I would say probably at the top of that list is like solicit feedback. Yeah. And again, this is tricky because oftentimes you'll say, hey, like, you know, give me some feedback. And if you're asking somebody who reports to you or somebody in your organization and you're the leader, oftentimes they're going to tell you something nice and polite. They don't want to hurt your feelings or they don't want to offend you. Um, but if you ask with an authenticity and a humility because you want to learn and grow, but you also want that person's perspective and you want their insight. And they trust you, they will tell you the truth. And that truth is your friend.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. And so it's seeking feedback and not just the praises of the people around you, but the criticisms as well. It's so important. Yeah. Cause that because that hurts, right? I mean, I remember the first time I got negative feedback, I was like, I was unwilling to receive it and it upset me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I wasn't able to hear it and receive it and allow it to shed light on my own blind spots. Right. So I think feedback is something we have to constantly seek because everybody has blind spots. Yeah. And together we can see the good and the bad and the ugly. Yeah. And so when we're working with teams and we're working in organizations, I think feedback can be a really helpful uh communication loop. Um, obviously self-reflection, right? Um, if I'm in an interaction that, let's say it didn't go well, right? I should reflect on that. Like, what could I have done different? Why did it go south? What was my fault in that? Like, what could how can I learn and grow from that? Yeah. If I could do that again, what would I do differently? Right. So just really to self-reflect through those moments and not just when things go bad, but when things go great. You know, it's like, why did it go well? Like what, you know, what happened? Was it by chance? Or, you know, and especially in those moments, it's like who else was inv involved in that success?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03So during that reflection, you're thinking about all the other people who contributed to that outcome, right? And again, that's thinking about others, thinking about the team, you know, realizing, okay, in spite of my weaknesses or flaws, or, you know, with my strengths, there were other people who contributed to that outcome. And so self-reflection is huge. And then something that I love to do is I'm a personality assessment junkie.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I've taken all.
SPEAKER_03I've taken all of them. And like the Myers Brig, the Enneagram, the Disc, um, the Vander Index. I mean, I've taken all of them. And part of why I like reading them is because they're so accurate oftentimes. Like it describes you in a way that you might not describe yourself, but it is so true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because they're designed to really understand the way you think, the way you make decisions, uh, how you show up in front of other people. And um, it just really helps me to understand myself at a deeper level. Yeah. Because there's so much research and and even science often that goes into those assessments. And so I love taking them and reading them. And I like taking them in again and again to see if anything changes or is tweaked. Um, so I'd say feedback, I would say good questions, asking a lot of questions. Not sometimes as a leader, we feel like we have all the answers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I think having more questions is actually a better way of like growing in that self-awareness because you know, I heard somebody once say it's like the smartest person in the room is not the leader, it's the team.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Everybody together working on a problem or a project or working on a plan, like everybody collectively together is smarter than any one person. And the problem with leaders sometimes is we think we know it all. Yeah. We think we have it all figured out. And so I think asking questions and soliciting not just feedback, but hey, Jared, what do you think? What would you do? You know, how are you seeing this problem? Or how would you do it differently? And I think that's those are some ways in which, you know, again, we're not only building into other people and influencing them, but we're making ourselves susceptible to things that we just can't see and understand because we're limited, right? And so I think that can help build that self-awareness.
SPEAKER_02I think that's so important. One of the things that you touched on was feedback and receiving it. I want to ask when it comes to giving feedback, you know, when we talk about a leader that leads beyond the title, I think of a leader who leads from the title. Feedback can keep can um seem almost as criticism if you're the one receiving the feedback from the title.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But when you're leading from the place of value, the place of action, the place of, hey, this is actually who I am as a leader, you're leading from your influence and not your title. Your feedback is almost like it's, hey, this is a growth, this is a coaching moment, this is a growth area for you. Can you talk about maybe the differences of um the difference of giving feedback from the place of leading through influence? And then maybe even if you have like a story of maybe a time when you felt like you maybe received feedback from someone who was leading from the title or someone who's leading from their influence.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Again, this is such a good topic because you know, when you've got the title or when you're the leader, sometimes, and I know I'm guilty of this, sometimes I feel like it's my job to help other people do a better job by showing them or telling them what they're doing wrong or how they can improve. Right. And when that's the mindset, almost everything that comes out of your mouth is critical, is negative, is it feels like a ding, right? And so I've heard, you know, a lot of different methods on feedback, like a feedback sandwich, like good news, bad news, good news, you know. And then I've heard a lot of research that actually feedback should be five positive things to one negative. Wow. Right. And so don't say anything negative or constructive until you've said five things that you can affirm about someone's work or their, you know, their their attitude or or whatever it is that you're trying to address. Yeah. Um, and I know that if you were to say 10 good things about me and then one thing that wasn't so good, you know, out of those 11 things, you know what I would remember most? The one. The one. Yeah. Right. I mean, because that's our psychology. Yes. Right. And so imagine how important that ratio is for me to say, hey, Jared, here's what you did really great, and I admire this about you. Keep doing this. You're doing a great job. And it has to be real. It can't just be fluff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. But part of that means that I'm conveying to you, I see you, I see how hard you're working, I see the value that you bring, I value you, I appreciate you. Um, and hopefully I'm building trust with you. And you're feeling like, okay, Eugene is for me. You know, he sees me, he supports me. And then after that foundation uh is built, by affirming, by encouraging, by celebrating, then I can say, is here's one thing I'd probably do different. Or if I were you, I'd think of it this way. What do you think? Right. And that's where you can kind of, I don't want to say slide in, but offer the the feedback, which might be constructive criticism or coaching or whatever you want to call it. And oftentimes when that's the approach where you're really valuing the person and you're affirming all those other things, oftentimes that person's way more receptive and they can hear it and receive it. And that's what leaders should do. That's their stewardship, right? Yep. To make uh to help others grow, to help others, you know, in their roles and and in their contributions. Um I I had a I had a boss once who um no one ever knew this because there was a piece of paper behind um on the back of his door to his office that um it said compliments or something like that, or like attaboys or high fives or whatever it was, right? And he had all these ticks on it where um it was a reminder for him, like when he left his office, when I go out, I need to be giving out affirmation, encouragement, I need to celebrate, catch people doing great work. And it was a reminder for him, and what he'd do when he came back into the office is he like, okay, this is how many people I saw, and this is what I said, and he'd do that because it helped him to really build that culture of like positive, yes, right, reinforcement. And then that would earn the the that would earn the trust and the credibility for him when it was appropriate to say, can I give you some feedback?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03Right. But it's because he's like ticked all these things, you know. Um, and so not only was it a remo a visual reminder for him, but he just knew that if he wasn't intentional about that, as the leader of the organization, he was our senior pastor, right? Like it could easily, it could just be easy for him to go around and just tell people how they could do things better. Yeah. And he didn't want to be that way. And he was aware of that. And so I just thought that was kind of a neat tool. And I've never emulated that or responded to that, but it just reminded me, I want to be that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I want to see the good in other people, I want to see the value they bring, I want to bring more of that out in them. I know no one's perfect. Yeah, we all have room to grow, but I don't want to lead with here's how I can make you better or here's what I see wrong in you. I want to lead with, man, you're doing such a great job in these areas. And that specific feedback's really important.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03Um, because the more specific and honest and genuine that is, yeah. Again, it really does build that foundation of trust for the moments and the times when coaching and feedback is required for that to be received and for that to actually make a positive impact in that person.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I think that's so important too. And uh it's so much easier to follow a leader, not out of fear, but out of a love, out of a buy-in, almost for the vision and the mission. And it's much easier to buy into a leader when they're leading from a place of hate, of auth of authenticity, of knowing that that the even it was kind of like the way that a leader says something to you can be so important and when you're giving and receiving feedback. I can think of the times in my life when I've received feedback about an area, maybe at first I've been really, I'm like, oh my gosh, did they really just say that to me? Yeah. And then you go and think back and you're like, oh, maybe there were some truths in there that I just were a little bit hard to hear.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What is um just as a leader, to have that accountability? I know we talked about building the relational equity with the team so that they feel like they can give that feedback back to the leader. Um, what are some ways that you've seen leaders build that uh build that really that trust within the team so that they know that when they're giving maybe some some feedback to their superior, that they're not in danger, that they don't have to operate in a fear, yeah, but with the buy-in for the vision and a buy-in on the leader, that they can that they're able to give real and honest and helpful feedback.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think an easy way to do that is just to own it, right? Own the feedback, or um, I would say, like, let's say you were giving me some feedback on something that you saw me in, and maybe I could have done something different or better, rather than you know, blaming it on something else or just you know, disregarding it, I could say, man, you're so right, Jared. Like, I totally blew that. And I know, you know, it's like, I'm so glad you're telling me this. And so owning it, but in a way where like I'm appreciating the fact that you're sharing it with me because now I feel like you're caring for me, right? Yeah. And I I I again, whether you're a leader or not, I think the natural reaction is to just get defensive, right? And to just blame it on something else. Well, that wouldn't have happened if so and so, or you know, I was just in a bad mood that day. It wasn't my fault. I just woke up on the wrong side of bed. No, just own it. Yep, you know, I just say, you know what, you're so right. Thanks for calling that out. Like I can grow in that area. You know, I appreciate you trusting me by telling me that, right? Yep. Um, and honestly, for me. I mean, I've learned that that raises my respect for you, right? Because, you know, you had the courage to tell me something that I needed to hear. And you could have easily withheld it because you might have thought, well, he'll like me more if I don't tell him something negative. Right. And so I will trust you more because I know you're going to tell me the truth. So it works in this kind of like two-way direction. Um, so I think owning it is a big thing. Again, going back to what I said earlier, solicit it regularly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. And so again, let's say you and I are working on something, and I just feel like, man, that didn't go really well. I should say, Jared, gosh, I didn't think that really went very well. Like, how could I have done a better job? And I'm asking you to tell me, or how could I approach it differently next time? Or did I not prepare well enough? And and I'm really honestly asking those kinds of questions because I want to grow, but I'm asking you to help me to see those things. Right. And so that's a demonstration of humility, right? Oftentimes it's like, hey, I don't think that went well. I think it's mostly my fault. Can you can you give me some feedback? Yeah. Like I'd love to know what you saw there and and you know how maybe I could think about that differently, right? Yeah. And so soliciting that feedback and then um, and then really, you know, appreciation goes a long way. Yeah. So, you know, if you were to give me some feedback on something, for me to just say, hey, thanks so much, I appreciate that. Like that means a lot, you know, and I might not know what to say in the moment. And especially if I don't know what to say in the moment, I'll just say, Hey, thanks. You know, and then I'll go home and do some self-reflection, and then maybe we'll have a different conversation the next day. But at the very least, I'm receiving it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I'm not being guarded, I'm not deflecting, I'm not getting angry at you for telling me something. Um, and so I I think those are some ways, you know, that you can really create a culture of open feedback, even feedback that goes upstream.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_03Um, because that's not always welcome. And there are some cultures where that's a very dangerous place to go. Yep. And, you know, that's unfortunately that's more common than not. But I want to be the kind of person, whatever my title is, or whatever it isn't, where you and I can really be honest with one another.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. As we close today, I just want to get your final thoughts. You kind of hinted at it a little bit, and I know you mentioned it today, even in our all-staff meeting, of the value of leading from a vulnerability. And you you kind of hinted at it even as we were discussing today. I just would, if you want to maybe just close with a few thoughts on that, yeah. Of the the importance and even the value that we can find in leading from a place of vulnerability.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um so uh years ago I took this personality assessment. Um, it's uh called Leadership Circle. And um it was a very, it's like a 360 where a lot of different people contribute to the assessment, how they experience your uh leadership, your, you know, how you work, you know, what you're like in meetings, and then obviously you're putting your self-assessment. And one of my mentors um really guided me through this. And at the end of the whole assessment, he said, you know, Eugene, the thing that's gonna help you go from this level to this level, he said, is courageous authenticity. Wow. Um, and I liked, I didn't understand it at the time, but when I think back, I liked that he put courageous in front of authenticity because sometimes we think authenticity is weakness. Yeah. It's admitting what we don't know, what we're not good at, or just kind of owning, like uh, well, I can't because I can't, you know, I don't have that skill or I don't have that gift or that talent, or this is just the way I'm wired. But being courageous is just owning and embracing that and naming the fact that, you know what, I'm afraid that other people are gonna think I'm not smart.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or I'm afraid that other people are gonna think I'm indecisive, or I'm worried that people will not respect me as much if just fill in the blank. Sure. But courageous authenticity is just owning and embracing all of the things that we're afraid other people are gonna think about us. Yeah. And then letting our guard down and just saying, you know what, here are my best thoughts, but hey, what do you all think? And let's work on these things together. And where that shows up in me in an unhealthy way is when I just get in my head and I'm internally processing and I'm not sharing with anybody. And this is what I mean by holding cards close to your chest. Yeah. Like, okay, I've got some information here, but I'm not gonna tell anybody what it is. I'm afraid that it could be wrong. I'm afraid that I could be stupid, you know, like, and I'm just gonna hold it and I'm not gonna contribute to the conversation. I'm not gonna weigh in or discuss. I'm gonna be the last one who speaks. And sometimes that's appropriate. But I think the courageous authenticity has taught me to say, you know what, team, I have no idea what to do right now. Like I've been thinking about this problem, it's keeping me up at night, and I don't even know where to begin or where to start. And it's just being honest and being courageous with that honesty, that that authenticity, that vulnerability. And other people will really feed off of that and it brings the best out of them. And then again, the team becomes stronger because it gives other people an opportunity to share their strength or their perspective or their wisdom, and you're creating space for that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, and so that was a lot of what I learned, not only through that personality assessment, but uh one of my mentors who really helped me unpack that and work on that. And it it's work, you've got to work on it. It's not just something you want to become, but you've got to work toward that place of authentic leadership.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I think that's so helpful. And I just want to thank you for being able to spend some time with us today, being able to give us some of your insight. Thank you for the way that you lead, um, not from a title, but from a place of influence. Um, and you are just uh so genuine and like that, you said that courageous vulnerability is so impactful. So just thank you so much for spending some time with us today.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Jared. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, here's what I know, leader is that if you are able to lead not from a title, but from a place of action, a place of value, a place of vulnerability, you can set yourself up for more impact than ever before.
SPEAKER_01Thanks again for joining us on the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you're looking for more leadership resources, you can find us at Vanderblumen.com and on socials at Vanderblumen. We'll see you again next week where we continue discussing how to build, run, and keep great teams.