Ministry Marathon: Staying Strong Through Burnout Prevention | ft. Will Klotz

In this episode of the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast, Will Klotz and Jared tackle burnout prevention in ministry leadership. They share candid insights, practical strategies, and personal anecdotes on recognizing burnout, nurturing healthy relationships, and balancing ministry demands with rest and recreation.

Key discussion points include:

• Recognizing Burnout: How to differentiate between natural fatigue and the deeper signs of burnout that can derail your ministry. 
• The Power of Relationships: The essential role of having a coach, counselor, and friend to provide guidance, accountability, and honest feedback. 
• Rhythms of Rest and Recreation: The importance of integrating Sabbath practices, regular breaks, and hobbies to rejuvenate your mind and body. 
• Aligning with Your Strengths: Strategies for ensuring that your work leverages your unique gifts, preventing the misalignment that often leads to burnout. 
• The Ministry Marathon: Practical insights on sustaining long-term passion and energy in a demanding leadership role.

Whether you're leading a church, nonprofit, or any team-driven organization, this episode provides actionable strategies to help you thrive while avoiding burnout.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to the Vander Bloom and Leadership Podcast where we help you build, run, and keep great teams. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in. Well, hey, welcome in. My name is Jared, and let me tell you, I am so excited about today's talk for two reasons. One, because we have an amazing topic. We're going to talk about burnout and some of the habits that we can develop to prevent it. But also, because of our guest today, we have none other than Vander Blumen's own senior client relations manager, Will Klotz. Will welcome on the podcast. It's great to have you, sir. Thanks so much, Jared.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Great to be here. Excited about this topic. Um I'm familiar with it personally, and then I am constantly dealing with churches and ministries that are talking to us. Well, really for a couple of reasons. One reason that uh churches or ministries might be talking to us is because they've had a ministry leader that has run a really good race and is now ready to hand the reins over as they cross the finish line of their ministry call to someone else. Yeah. But then I'm dealing with a lot of others who have just hit a wall experiencing burnout, and there's some sort of opening in this ministry because somebody had to had to go step on the sidelines for a little while. And so my my goal in this conversation would be let's increase the former, getting more people to cross that ministry finish line and less people who are having to leave, you know, because it's just exhausting and it's taking a toll on them to a degree that they're they're burnt out.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah. I love that so much. Maybe let's help our listeners right now. What are some of the warning signs that you could maybe point out in a leader of saying, hey, you know, burnout is maybe not happening right now in your current situation, but this is maybe a red flag of saying, watch out when this pops up because you know that we don't want to that that we just want to make sure that doesn't happen to you in the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Yeah. Well, I I want to differentiate between just being tired and weary and then experiencing signs of burnout. Because no matter what, there's no advice we can offer that will lift the demands and burdens of ministry that make it tiring and exhausting. So there's a kind of tiredness that is almost like uh, you know, crossing a finish line of a of a long race where you're worn out and exhausted, but there's there's a joy in in that. Yes. Uh, and then there's another that uh is gonna have a lot of damaging effects. So, what are some of those more concerning signs of weariness or exhaustion? It's gonna vary from person to person. And I think those closest to you will have good signs. Um, you know, I I think sometimes it can affect almost a flip in your personality. So if you are someone that's very outgoing, loves being around people, but all of a sudden um you're just kind of closed off. People are exhausting to you. The the love and affection that drew you into ministry for people is now waning and you really don't like people at all. Yeah. Um, that could be one. So it's this flip of like, hey, I'm normally like this, but man, I seem to be like on the other side of the spectrum. That could be pertaining to things that you once loved. Like um, you know, at Vanderblumen, we use the the working genius kind of kind of profile. And I I kind of live in the the realm of ideation, I think they call it, like vision, ideas. Hey, we should do this. And I remember seasons of burnout where I'm just like, I've got nothing. Like that that personality gifting that I'm usually operating in seems to almost have completely vanished. And I'm I'm I'm not really myself anymore. Um, I I would want to, you know, look real closely at just some of those family relationships. A dear pastor friend of mine, as he was entering the into a season of ministry burnout, uh, a real flag for him um was you know, his kid said something along the lines of like, oh, it's grumpy dad today. Like that, like his interaction with his kids was increasingly changing because the weight that he was feeling in ministry was now manifesting itself in his family relationships. So these are some different areas to look at. I mean, the bottom line is have people around you that can observe, hey, you're you're maybe beyond just weary. That this seems to be affecting you maybe in even more of an adverse way.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah. Let's maybe talk there a little bit more about the importance of the relationships around you. And maybe if you can speak to uh the the value of having those close to you that you trust and having the voices um in your life, the the mentors maybe, um, the the close friends that can that you've given permission to to speak that to you when they see it.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Let me give three categories of relationship. And this is not rocket science, but this is more meant to be an assessment for anyone listening to ask, do I have these types of relationships in my life? Or do I really need this particular type of like I need to lean into this type of relationship? And so let me just give you the three categories that I think every ministry leader should have. Uh, the first would be a coach, the second, a counselor, and then the final is friend. So those three categories are really important. Let me start with coach. Of course, uh, it's just wise to have someone given the um significance of what we're carrying in ministry leadership. Uh, I wish I had more coaches early on as I was entering into pastoral ministry. We need people who have gone before us that can just look at how we are carrying out our ministry, give advice and counsel and things like that. But let me talk about a coach in a more specific way. You know, um my my son uh is running track right now for the first year for his school. And what the coaches are doing, all of these, you know, uh middle school boys show up with all of these different giftings as it pertains to running or track and field, like, oh, you are a shot putter or oh, you are a long distance runner. And so what this coach is doing is I can kind of see how you're wired, and I think this race is best for you. I bring that up because sometimes ministry burnout is not necessarily an issue of hard work, but wrong work. Oh, meaning that you are uh perhaps operating. Now we all have to do monotonous things that we don't want to do. Sure. But if the lion's share of your work is stuff that just does is not life-giving to you, like you're not wired that way, you're not gifted in that. Yeah. Like if you take my personality and put it in a highly detailed, oriented, precise position, yep. I'm gonna last 15 minutes and then I'm gonna be exhausted, right? Yeah. So part of the role of a coach is to look at you and perhaps the things that you are putting your hands towards, and they can can speak to, oh, yeah, you're right where I think God's gifted you, or I think you're out of that a little bit. Let's help you align. Um, so that would be a coach. Uh, the second is a counselor. You know, we we at Vander Bloomen are serving so many different forms of ministry. Some of the times it's just a pastor that's walking through um life with people. And I always say about pastors, you are there for the very best moments and the very worst moments in people's lives. You know, when you show up at the emergency room and have to sit across the table from a mom who has just found out that, you know, they've lost their child and you're that first source of kind of spiritual comfort for them. Um, you know, that that that might be something you need to talk with someone and process out. Yeah. Or if you're dealing with a lot of interpersonal stuff and some divisions within the church, you probably need a counselor to just unravel that mess that's in your mind and and and unpack that. You know, there are other groups that we're working with, um, you know, a lot of homeless ministries where you are dealing with people that have all manner of issues of addiction and uh life-controlling problems that that that is a heavy burden that you carry. You're leading a crisis pregnancy center. Whatever the case is, often the people that we're working with, you are dealing with very heavy things. Yeah. And you need a counselor to help you process that. I love that. Um, yeah. And then the final piece, this is so essential, and it's just neglected. I see it, especially with pastors. It'd be an interesting survey, you know. Um, I'm sure there's stats. Pastor, uh, how many of you uh have someone that you consider a friend, even inside or outside the church? Yeah, I think it's helpful to have someone outside the church that's your friend, but just you get to get, you know, so many of our relationships in pastoral ministry are like to get a ministry project done, to counsel someone through a hard time. Yeah, like all of our relationships are wrapped up in our job. Is there someone in your life that you're able to just get together with for the pure enjoyment of the relationship? Some of the people listening might need to really emphasize in one of these categories of relationship. Maybe all three need to show up. Um, but that that would just be an assessment tool. Do I have a coach, a counselor, and a friend? And if not, that that's a bit of a red flag.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yeah. I love that. I think even on the last point, too, you talk about a friend. A lot of times there may be maybe a uh uh kind of a stigma that like, you know, ministry is lonely. And at times it can be, but it doesn't have to be. You know, and sometimes it takes a little bit of that extra effort to go and make those relationships that are lasting that you can kind of just be yourself around, uh, maybe be a little bit unfiltered around as well. That's absolutely. Yeah. Um I think that's so so so important. What are um maybe some of the best practices that you've seen in leaders that have been more of a preventative measure uh for burnout? That that um, you know, we talked about the relational side, but the the personal side of what are things that a leader can be doing to maybe make sure that they go and as you said, they finish this race well.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, that's that's great. I think of kind of this broad category that I'd love the leaders listening to think about and ask this question. Do I have any rhythms of rest and recreation in my life? Let me let me just talk about the first one because that's more straightforward. And I think there's lots of work recently that that's been put out on the significance of Sabbath and just the need for rhythms in our life where we are stepping back. Um, you know, maybe just this podcast is just a simple check engine light for some ministry leader listening that, hey, it's been a little while. That PTO balance is getting a little high. Yeah. Uh we need to schedule something, even if you feel like you don't need it, uh, to just get some time away to just be and not do. So let's let's use some of those uh vacation benefits that are given to us because a lot of ministry leaders just let those accumulate and don't ever take time off. Um, let's make sure that there is a a day where you are stepping away from uh from the work of ministry and are just resting and recouping this distinction between doing and being, right? Be a human being one day of a week, one day of the week. So, you know, having those rhythms of rest are so important. What I want to emphasize is also just some measure of recreation in your life. Um, I all the time I'm talking to pastors that are just nose to the grindstone, and I ask the question, hey, what do you do for a little bit of recreation and fun? And I'm not even talking about taking a day off, just something that is not ministry, and the answer perpetually is uh nothing at all. Um another question would be, hey, just your physical health, like walks, lifting a little bit of weights, going on, give me something about and I just don't have time for that right now. I'm I'm in a season, you know, we're leading up to Easter and we've got to grind this out. Right. So so I want to talk about that that recreation and kind of maybe fitness piece a little bit more. You know, um, I find it often helpful in life giving. There's just maybe a little tidbit for for pastors. Someone once said that if you uh work with your hands, you should rest with your mind. Yes. And if you rest with your mind, uh, or excuse me, if you uh work, if you work with your mind, rest with your hands. Meaning a lot of pastors, we are studying, we are with people, we are thinking through theological or strategic issues for our church. Yep. I I remember when I was pastoring, just the joy of doing some little house project, and I'm not even handy and good at it, but like when COVID hit, I just assembled some wood pieces around in my house and built a a little bird feeder and we put it outside and it didn't last more than like a week or two before it destroyed. But there was something, and I think a lot of pastors will resonate with it with this, where it just never feels like in pastoral ministry there's any sort of completion. Yeah. Any sort of um, you know, I I uh oh, we we completed a project. Like it's always an ongoing thing. And just to take an hour to work on a bird feeder or whatever you're interested in, and just like, wow, I actually accomplished like there's a physical thing that is that is finished from this. So I I think it's good for pastors who do a lot of work with their mind and a lot of work in relationships, have some kind of recreation in your life, whether it's uh some hobby, something that is a little bit more physical, a little bit more tangible. I think that can be really life-giving for you. Now, if none of that interests you, I still hope that you will focus on having some some sort of recreation, something that's purely enjoyable. Yeah. It it isn't feeding into ministry, it's not strategic, it's not somehow uh accomp helping accomplish the mission, you know, something that's purely done for the enjoyment of it that is regularly happening in your life. I think that's really important. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Uh, you know, we've talked a lot about the uh burnout and the preventative measures for um the senior leader. What are maybe some tips or best practices, some ways that you've seen it done well of helping uh leaders of teams help those who are a part of the team maybe either, you know, kind of more that preventative measure or even helping them work through some burnout that they may be experiencing. Do they need to take some time off from the team? Do they need to um maybe find a different team? Or like what are just some ways that as a leader um you can help those who are part of what your organization um who may be experiencing those pains?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah, you know, there's obviously when we have a team, we're getting together to accomplish a task, and you know, we want to constantly be um doing assessment and feedback to make sure each team member is contributing to the work. That's that's that's like apparent that that's the role of the leader. But uh, I wonder how many of the leaders listening are also watching their team with another set of eyes that's not just are we getting the task done, but how is my team doing? Um, am I asking intentional questions that are drawing out the spiritual uh vitality of my team members? So um sometimes, you know, if if you've got, for example, a church leadership team, it's so easy to be so outward focused with your people or the people that you're trying to reach that you neglect even the people that are carrying out that work of ministry. Yeah. And so I think our team leaders need to have such a special eye. And as you get to know people a little more, kind of like that relational piece earlier, you'll begin to see, oh, you're you seem to be operating outside of kind of your normal uh uh approach, your normal personality, your normal passion seems to be waning a little bit. I want to lean into that some. I want to insist on people taking rhythms of uh Sabbath and even sabbatical uh as whatever that policy looks like in your church, even if they say, Oh, I just don't really feel like I need that right now. I think we need to gently encourage those kinds of things. Um, I, you know, and I I just think being an example of spiritual health, um, be an example of someone that is taking time away from the grind to spend time in the presence of God, um, that is uh nurturing their own relationship, that's holding to that John, that quote that Jesus says in John, that that you know, he's the vine, we're the branches, apart from him, we can do nothing. I hope that our leaders are setting the example of that for their team for the longevity of their health. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

I love that so much. What's maybe uh just just as a um as a pastor, you know, a lot of times we can think um that thought maybe, you know, burnout will never will never happen to me. You know, I'll never experience uh I'll never I'll never that'll never happen to me, you know, kind of it'll happen to other people, but you know, I I'm I'm one who just puts the nose to the grindstone, as you said. Um what are can you maybe hit more on the differentiate differentiation of uh work being able to just work hard and versus the you know, I'm I'm actually burnt out because you hit on it in a little bit, but the the balance of how do we understand of, hey, this is something that it is okay to work hard in ministry. It is it is okay to really and maybe even have seasons of where it is a little bit of that nose to the grindstone, but also the balance of you do need to rest and you do need to recognize that.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah. So the distinction between really hard, difficult work, yet is a part of our call, no matter what, there's no way out of it, um, versus uh this is now adversely affecting me. You know, um I might compare it to running a little bit. So there are because I often think of ministry as a marathon. You know, if you hate running, don't tune this podcast out. That's fine. But like if you're in ministry, you're in a marathon of of its own sort. And, you know, when you're doing distance, long distance running, there are aches and pains you begin to identify that are just like, oh, that I'm just a little sore. That's just normal. This hurts, it's part of it. And then there's a pain that is if I don't stop and take a break, this is going to sideline me for the next two months. And so smart marathon runners can identify the difference between the two, and they will say, Okay, that I this is just some weariness, my foot just hurts, but I can make it the next couple miles. Or that's like a flashing sharp pain. I can push through this thing if I want, but then I'm gonna be sidelined for a while. I would say similarly with ministry, there is just I am physically tired, I need to get some sleep, or uh, my body is tired from a long Sunday at church. Um or uh what there's just weariness. And then gosh, I haven't had like a deep conversation with my wife, it feels like in a few weeks. Like we've just been grinding it out. That if I don't do something, I'm gonna be sidelined for a while if I don't nurture my relationship with my wife, or um I am deeply like you know, there's we all have ebbs and flows of uh kind of joy and sadness. I've been in a dark cloud for weeks and I'm fighting to make it to the next Sunday. Uh, this isn't just kind of some uh temporary seasonal depression. I'm in a dark place and I need to go tap into that counselor resource that you got into. Yep. So, and maybe other people can help differentiate between just, hey, this is just hard and you're tired, or hey, this is going to give you an injury that's going to really um put at jeopardy the longevity of your ministry.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I love this so much. Well, as we kind of come to a close today, I just want to know is there maybe any um just last reminders to leaders today as we kind of um are talking about this discussion of burnout. Any just last, last reminders, last um uh uh thoughts to to give them today as we kind of uh close?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah, there's been so much talk about ministry post-COVID, everybody in terms of burnout, ministry burnout post-COVID, that was a huge topic of conversation. I mean, we're five years out now, and we're we're kind of still on that. Um, and lots of people left the ministry during that initial season, and we're kind of feeling the ramifications of that. But there's simultaneously an exciting thing that's happening that adds the weight to the need for you to stay in ministry. Yeah. Somehow, even as lots of people have left the ministry, ironically, Gen Z, lots of studies have been done now. Like this is the first generation where Christianity Christianity is not declining. And there's actually an increased spiritual interest in Gen Z uh that goes back multiple generations. We've not seen this. Yeah. So I want to talk to ministry leaders and say, not only for your own sake, please take preventative measures to prevent burnout, but man, there's a whole generation of of spiritually inclined, interested people that need you. Yeah. We need shepherds, we need people in in this thing for the long run, um, because there is an interest out there in Jesus right now in ways that I've not seen and maybe at any point in my own spiritual journey. So that that, you know, in Matthew, Jesus is looking at his disciples and mindful of the call that's on them to initiate the church and to take his uh finished work to to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth. He he knows that's where it's headed. But as he looks in the immediate, he says, Um, you know, the harvest is ready, but the laborers are few. Yeah. Right now, the harvest is ready, and we need laborers. It's okay if you're a tired laborer, we just need non-burned out laborers. Yes. So, so not just for your own sake, for the sake of this generation that needs um healthy spiritual leaders, stay in this thing and take care of yourself so you don't get burned out.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

I love that so much. Thank you, Will, for being able to come on the podcast today. Love it, thank you. Yes. And here's what I know, leader. If you emphasize relationships, rest, and recreation, um, you can take the preventative measures to not burn out. Thanks again for joining us on the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you're looking for more leadership resources, you can find us at Vanderblumen. Vanderblumen.com and on socials at Vanderblumen. We'll see you again next week where we continue discussing how to build, run, and keep great teams.