Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast
Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast
Credibility Over Perfection: The Key to Lasting Leadership Trust | ft. William Vanderbloemen
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode of the Vanderbloemen Leadership Podcast, William Vanderbloemen explores why credibility matters more than perfection in leadership and how to build lasting trust with your team.
He delves into:
- The difference between perfection and credibility in leadership.
- How to maintain authenticity and integrity as a leader.
- Practical strategies to build trust that endures.
- Why striving for excellence, not perfection, leads to stronger leadership.
Whether you're leading a church, business, or nonprofit, this episode will help you foster a leadership style grounded in trust and authenticity.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast where we help you build, run, and keep great teams. Thanks for being here. Let's dive in.
SPEAKER_03William, I have a question for you. Do you trust me? Like for a trustful? Well, I'm kind of a bigger guy. I don't know. Like I don't know, but today we're talking all things trust. And so I want to hear your perspective. What is what does trust look like? Is it a trustful? What does trust look like in a high performing team?
SPEAKER_00Well, this is a big question, and I don't know that I'm the expert on it because I yeah, you know, I played loose with trust in the past. You know what I didn't realize? Trust is really fragile. You break it and it is really hard to rebuild it. So I don't know. But what is trust? We can talk more about that in a minute. But what is trust, I think you know, the word that comes to mind is credibility. Yeah. And that doesn't mean perfect. It doesn't mean never messes up. It doesn't mean, you know, um always gonna be absolutely what you expect. Here's the truth: if you're a leader and you're leading your team, you're like some of my people are letting me down, everyone will let you down sooner or later. Just ask Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, uh, he did not hire the 12 disciples based on their credibility. Tax collector, failed fisherman. Yeah, I mean, yeah, two brothers that wanted to be at his right hand and his left. This was not a credible team. Uh, but what what I mean, why do I pick the word credible? I I'm a bit of a language geek. Credible goes back to the old Latin root of uh your creed, your credo. I believe, like the apostles' creed was the credo, I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth. Trust becomes believability. Okay. And that's such such an uh an interesting lesson that I didn't get as a young leader. I thought trust was perfection. It's not. Trust is believability. I was sitting with a young leader recently who went through a really hard time in her life and had to tell her church about it. And she called um a pastor that everyone would know, but I'm gonna leave the names out. And uh, he's just one of the wisest guys I know. And he told her, you know, your church will forgive you as long as you tell them the truth. They can handle a mess up, but they can't handle not being able to believe you. Yeah, boy, I wish I'd have learned that in seminary because I messed up things before, and you try and gloss over, and we try and say, Oh, look over there, or you try and spin it this way or that. And and it just leads down a very fast hill of people going from I think they're credible, to I don't know, they're talking a little too fast. And man, once you stop believing in somebody, once you think they're no longer credible, it's really hard to get back up that hill. So for me, trust in any team goes back to believability and not perfection. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03What are some of the positive effects and even just uh the the the collaboration that goes on within a team when team members are able to trust not only the senior leader but those around them as well?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think uh, you know, here in Texas, it's really interesting. Um, Texas was basically founded by criminals and debtors. Um it's kind of like Australia was a jail to start the same sort of thing, just uh on a different scale. But here in Texas, it it the term you just need to shoot straight with me. Yep, that's so key. And I'm learning over time, if you need to tell people you screwed up, that's far better than trying to make them look the other way. And and losing trust is not always just lying to people, it's it's not being willing to own your part of a mistake. That's great, right? So when trust is put in place, man, the sky's the limit. If it's you talk to my son, uh went to Texas AM. I went to Wake Forest undergrad, and uh we didn't know anything about this. And we we just did a podcast on culture, and we didn't even mention Texas AM, which is the biggest culture in the in the country. Um, but their their whole deal is shoot straight. Yep, tell it like it is, honor, duty. Doesn't mean perfection, doesn't mean be perfect, it means just be honest, and they come together in a way that uh the he was in the core of cadets, which is crazy. He parachuted in, not knowing anybody or anything about it. And those young women and men, like they trust each other, not because they're perfect, but because they've got each other's back and you're gonna do what you say you're gonna do when you say you're gonna do it. Uh it it when that happens in a team, it kind of goes back to uh we were talking about high performers in a podcast sometime back. And I mentioned that uh you know we've got seven kids, they're all going in different directions for their careers. We've got one at home, the rest of them are two in college and the rest on their way, and they couldn't be going in more different directions, but they've all asked advice and Adrian and I have tried to tell them here here you want to succeed, then do whatever business you go into, if you do what you say you're going to do, when you say you're going to do it, at the price that you promised you will do it, you're gonna be in the top, I used to say 10% of businesses in your sector. And the more I tell that story to to corporate settings, the CEOs consistently pull me aside and say, it's not 10%, it's like 1%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If you've ever built anything in in a home, uh, I I don't think the home builders I've worked with have lied to me intentionally, but they didn't finish on time, they didn't finish on budget, and sometimes the quality wasn't what it was supposed to be. And you know, if you can just deliver on what you said you're gonna do, then and and if it's not gonna happen, own up to it right away. You'll engender trust. Uh, think about it as a oh, you know, capital campaign for a church. We're gonna raise whatever the number is $20 million, $5 million, $100 million. If you're not hitting the mark, the smartest thing you can do is go back to the congregation and say, we're not hitting the mark. Yeah. I missed that one. I bet you end up hitting the mark. Once you own up to and just say, here's what actually happened. It's not in our wiring though. I mean, I think sometimes people equate, well, you broke trust with you lied. Uh sometimes breaking trust is just not owning your part of things. Think back to the beginning uh of the first you know scene of sin in the Bible. Uh, so you know, don't you can have anything you want, just not this fruit. Yep. You know, that wouldn't it wouldn't have bothered me if it had been you can't have the latest device from Apple. Yeah, then I would have known the falling immediately, but the apple itself effective, whatever. But so, you know, Lord finds him in the garden. It's like, what happened here? And Adam's first one to talk and says, Well, that woman, the one you gave me, yeah, just she made me do it. That's not owning anything, and it's a breach of trust. Yeah, people think breach of trust is a direct lie. I don't think people directly lie very often. The breaches of trust are much more subtle. It's owning your stuff. And then Eve, of course, says, Well, the serpent maybe do it. And it like it was people just don't own their stuff. I can't tell you. Well, I'll flip it. I can tell you that after interviewing countless candidates, I can count on two hands the number of times a candidate has said to me, I got fired from that job and it was my fault. Like the victim mentality. Well, again, let me tell you what they did. Let me tell you what happened to me. Let me tell you what it's so prevalent. Yeah. And I'm not throwing stones here. I'm actually getting an opportunity to shine because if you will just own your part of the problem, well, immediately you're gonna stand out of the crowd. And you'll also find yourself in a better spot. I mean, people I I heard from counselors about divorce for many, many years, and one of the best pieces of advice I heard was you will not heal from divorce until you figure out what part of it was your problem and you created and own that. And I know that sounds a little off from credibility and trust, but I think some people think trust is he got up and lied to us. That happens, but it's pretty uncommon. Most of the time, breaches of trust are a deflection, uh just not owning things and not being, oh, what he said is exactly what happened. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's funny. You mentioned even the home builders, you know, saying we're gonna get this date and then not meeting that date, saying we're gonna need this much budget, and then going a little bit over a word that kind of came to mind when you were speaking about all of that is accountability. I just wanted to hear your insights on the differences between having accountability in a team versus micromanaging and being maybe a little bit too hands-on with team members.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that is that is such a balance. Uh, you know, I've not been around a successful church planter that doesn't know every detail in the church, even when it's huge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I remember I was walking years ago with Bill Hivels in Willow Creek, and the church is huge, and we've got this big, you know, he's got all this staff working from hundreds and hundreds of people. He's in the middle of talking about something really important as we're walking down the hall, and he stops what he's doing and goes over to a trash can and notices there isn't a liner in it. Why isn't that that way? Yeah. And that's part of the reason the church grew to what it was. Yeah. He was that aware of we got a client, I won't out them, but we had to sit down with the senior pastor and say the church is 10,000 people now. You do not need to be putting the signs out for where the parking is on Sunday. Yeah. It's time to let it go, right? So, so I think especially if you planted your organization, I know I feel that way as a uh the guy who founded this place. I get a little antsy about little tiny details that's probably a little too much, but it's because I I was there when it was all on me. Yeah. However, just saying, oh, people will get it right. We don't need to have any weekly one-on-ones, we don't need to have annual reviews, we'll all just get it done right. No, no, go read Lord of the Flies. Yes, when there's no accountability, we as humans are are not great at self-governing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So uh I it's a balance of where do you, you know, and so I'd ask yourself, did I found this place? And so am I a little too tied to the details? Has it grown bigger than when I got here? That tends to lead to micromanaging. But on the flip side, are you are you really doing annual reviews? Are you really measuring whether people are doing what they say they are gonna do? Very few churches I know do that. And uh it it just leads to a big mess. And you know where I see it a lot is in hiring. Okay. In hiring, uh pastors get so excited about trying to tell people to come join the team that they give a very Pollyannish view of what's going on. Yeah. Uh I remember a a church I interviewed with when I was pastoring, and it's not a church I went to, so I won't, you know, don't go look up where I served and figure out what I'm talking about. That's not it. Uh, but they were telling me how great their children's ministry was, how they had all these young families, and uh they were moving, and so they showed me the plans for the new building. They had not put a playground in the plans. I'm like, Where where are the children in the play? Oh well, come to find out, they were very good, a few children. So it's this I gotta sell them on getting onto the team, and then when they get there, it's like, uh, I I've told you this and everybody around here. Um, our job, whether we're talking to candidates while we're helping them discern their next call or or clients who are saying, help us find that next key staff member. Our job is to make sure nobody walks down the aisle with Rachel and wakes up next to Leah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's the one of the best verses in all the Old Testament. And Jacob woke up and it was Leah. It's like you know, it's the G-rated version of whatever happens, like, oh my gosh. It it happens in hiring. And if you hire that way, you've already lost credibility even before the person joins the staff. So I I'm not trying to pick on pastors. I'm the worst. I'm still having to learn. We we talked an episode or two ago. I talk too fast and move too fast sometimes, and that sometimes erodes trust. So uh, you know, don't paint the picture better than it is, don't spin it better than it is. I've done all of these things so many times. You know, having to learn just back off and let things be told as they really are, uh, in a way that you want to interview here now. We actually tell people, okay, let me tell you a few reasons why you might not want to come here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Here's a few reasons why you might not like it here, because this is how we behave. And uh hopefully it gives an honest view of people wake up and oh, it's Rachel. It's not Leah.
SPEAKER_03That's right. One of the things that you mentioned, even when you were talking about year interviews and weekly one-on-ones, is just this kind of topic of feedback. And uh what are just some of the uh tips and um maybe best practices that you've seen in teams of how to effectively give feedback and even sometimes how to, you know, maybe take a little bit of positive feedback and how to better your team?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think the first thing is um clear boundaries on why we're meeting. We're here to talk about your performance. Yep. We're not here to talk about whether I like you. Yep. We're not here to talk about whether Jesus loves you. We're here to talk about your performance. Now, I in a performance review, we could do a whole podcast on it, but I think it starts with some relational before we get down, hey, before we get into your performance review, how's your family? Yeah. You know, how are you doing with X, Y, and Z? Some relational something that builds some equity, right? And then when the performance uses, we're here to talk about your performance. Let's talk about what I'm really pleased with so far. Yeah. And it helps if you listen to our goal setting podcasts, if you can say, we set these three goals for you this year, and you got these three then done. But always start with the positive, right? And then if you don't get to the negative, you're not helping. Yeah. Um, we had a a situation years ago where somebody just was not making it. And their supervisor, uh, they weren't a bad person. It was just a their life had changed, our work had grown immensely, and they they weren't making it. Yeah. And that doesn't, there's no villain here. It just, you know, our work is way too important to just kind of mosey through it. That's right. We're we're helping churches determine staff. I gotta have a sit-down with Jesus about what I'm doing with this chessboard. Yeah. And it's coming one day. Yeah, I want it to be a good conversation. So if somebody's not making it, you know, the kindest thing you can do is be honest with them. But their supervisor was like a pastoral care pastor almost, who's like, yeah, we all love you. We think you're great at this, we think you're great at that. Maybe you can improve a little bit here, but we're all that isn't clarity is kindness. That doesn't mean you'd be mean. It doesn't give you a right to say, well, I'm not real strong in the gift of mercy. Nobody gets to say that, right? However, clarity is kindness. If you've got someone underperforming, they need to hear it. They need to hear it in a contained conversation. We need to talk about your performance, and they need to hear it in a way that is honest. You will lose trust with the rest of your staff if you won't be honest with the one that's underperforming. And everybody listening to this podcast right now or watching it, everyone has someone that's working just hard enough to not get fired, and nobody wants to go talk to them. I, you know, it's it's usually like I'm gonna get in so much trouble, Jerry, but it's usually like the missions pastor. It's just like, here's a club, go beat the baby seal. Like, you know, like I love missions, I'm not against missions, but it my point is it's usually somebody that you just can't. How do I tell the 94-year-old pastoral care guy that he needs it? You know, it it it's usually really hard. And we and hopefully nobody goes into ministry because they just love hard nose business. Yeah, usually it's people who love people, and the last thing you want to, oh, how do I but clarity is kindness, and clarity will build trust with that individual and trust with the organization. It just needs to be in a very contained environment. Hey, we're gonna sit down, we're gonna talk about your performance. Before we do that, how's your family? How's this going? And let me start with here's some things you're doing great. Now let's talk about the rest.
SPEAKER_03Yep. Yep. I love that. Is there any tips that you would give to leaders for maybe even rewarding or recognizing accountability in their, maybe they're from their manager level that are doing it below, but also, you know, to a peer-to-peer level, just saying, hey, you know, we uh um uh a peer-to-peer maybe correction or maybe encouragement of accountability when going to achieve a goal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we've got a client, I'm not the best at this, but we've got a client um years ago who one of their cultural or one of their staff values, and I guess it's cultural, is we tell the last 10% of the truth. And this is in the deep south where, you know, I grew up in the south, not the super deep south, but I I can't tell you how many times I heard my mother say, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all, right? Some of you know what I'm talking about. And uh it happens in churches where, particularly in the deep south, where you never really talk about the ugly thing. Yeah. And uh, this church said, We tell the last 10% of the truth. And they would value when they saw someone do that. Now, that doesn't mean in an all-staff meeting you say up and stand up and say, Jared, Ohio State's a crooked organization, and they shouldn't have won the national championship, and you are dirt for triggering for them. Like, that's not the last 10% of the truth. That's right, and it'd be lies too.
SPEAKER_03That would not be good.
SPEAKER_00Now we're back to the trust thing. Oh no. No, I I I think it's uh it's not just that you reward people who are doing accountability, it's that you reward the way they're doing that accountability. You know, there's a whole Matthew 18 thing. You pull people off one-on-one if there's a conflict. Yeah. And you try and deal with it there first. I don't need a loudmouth running around telling people you ought to be doing this, and you ought to be. That's not value and accountability, that's just beating people up. It's a kind way to talk to people. Just think of it like your kid. You wouldn't, you know, completely just go after your kid in a public setting or in front of their friends, but you sure will when it's one-on-one time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like, so I how it accountability is done is probably just as important as that it's done. And then if you're in a setting where accountability is not a normal thing, making it a value is a huge deal. We've got a church in the south side of Chicago, fabulous people, but they don't need to make that a value because they're like, you know, dudes. They're they're gonna go ahead and say it like it is no matter what. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's great. Would you give any last uh minute tips as we're closing today for team leaders as they can go and try to improve trust and accountability and credibility amongst their team?
SPEAKER_00You just do what you say you're gonna do. Yeah. Do it when you say you're gonna do it and do it at the price that you promised. You do those three things, you will rise to the top. And if you'll set that pace at the top, you don't have to be perfect. When you mess up, tell people trust is not about perfection, trust is just about telling it like it is. I'm still learning this. I am not the expert on this, so please don't hear this as William is the trust expert. It's it's an ongoing journey for all of us. None of us are perfect. I mean, Jesus just has the most fascinating taste in brides. It's amazing that he cares about us at all. Yeah, because none of us have this trust. But uh, I'm trying to learn, and I think the big lesson for me is trust it in perfection. It's just being honest.
SPEAKER_03Yep. That's great. Well, you're so I know is that if you are able to grow trust and credibility and accountability in your team, you'll be able to achieve all that God has for you in the future.
SPEAKER_02Thanks again for joining us on the Vanderblumen Leadership Podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you're looking for more leadership resources, you can find us at VanderBloomen.com and on socials at VanderBloomen. We'll see you again next week where we continue discussing how to build, run, and keep great teams.