Ivan Yates

Ivan Yates is one of the few figures in Irish public life to have successfully navigated three distinct and demanding acts: the corridors of power, the volatility of the betting industry, and the high-octane world of national broadcasting.

His story began in the early 1980s when he burst onto the political scene as the "Baby of the Dáil," becoming the youngest TD in the country at just 21 years old. A protégé of the Fine Gael party, Yates quickly proved he was more than a novelty act. He rose through the ranks to become the Minister for Agriculture during the mid-1990s, where he earned a reputation as a formidable negotiator and a sharp legislative mind.

However, at the height of his political influence in 2002, he made the rare and shocking decision to walk away from a "safe" seat to pursue a career in the private sector.

That second act was defined by the meteoric rise and subsequent collapse of Celtic Bookmakers. Yates transformed a small family business into a national powerhouse with dozens of outlets across Ireland. But the 2008 financial crash proved catastrophic; the business folded, leaving Yates facing personal debts in the millions.

In a move that became a defining moment of his public narrative, he moved to Wales to undergo a grueling 16-month bankruptcy process. Rather than retreating in shame, he documented the ordeal with a raw, "full-on" honesty that eventually endeared him to a public also struggling with the fallout of the Great Recession.

His third and perhaps most influential act saw him reinvented as a media firebrand. Upon his return to Ireland, Yates traded the political podium for the radio microphone, primarily at Newstalk. With a signature style—a mix of gruff skepticism, insider political knowledge, and a gambler’s wit—he became a titan of the airwaves.

Whether anchoring Newstalk Breakfast or sparring with Matt Cooper on television’s The Tonight Show, he positioned himself as the voice of the "squeezed middle" and a relentless critic of bureaucratic inertia.

Today, having stepped back from the daily grind of live radio, Yates remains a vital voice in Irish discourse. Through high-profile podcasts and political consulting, he continues to analyse the "horse race" of Irish elections with the same shrewd, unsentimental eye that has guided his journey from the backbench to the boardroom and, finally, to the top of the media ratings

https://open.acast.com/public/streams/6797e0dc673aa382e1fbaea9/episodes/69b81f2f19edd9d9c9ff249f.mp3

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Iron Island Discs, a podcast series where we talk to Irish people from different walks of life as they reflect on their own journey. Join me, Rosa McDermott, as we explore the many aspects of Irish Disc and what it means to each of our guests through life's ups and downs. Ivan Yeats, welcome to Iron Island Discs. Thank you, Rosset.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

This has been a long time in planning. Delighted to talk to you, even though this series starts with Have you been to Aaron Island? I have been to Innischboffen and I had to speak to my wife. Have we been to Aaron Islands? And she said, we actually went to Dooliness at the pier there. Yeah. And actually the boat, the ferry was cancelled. So hand on heart, it is on my bucket list to do, but I assume it's not that different to some of the other islands.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

No, it depends on the day and the weather. It can look different color-wise with the same type of experience. You're going somewhere out in the mid-Atlantic, it feels remote.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Yeah. But look, I mean, like, I'm well used to being in the Ar Sola nowhere. So what's the wrong about the Aaron Islands?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

We've lost all our listers at Waxford, haven't we? Anyway, how do you describe yourself if somebody meant you, Ivan, who didn't know you when you're traveling abroad?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Whenever I'm on a radio or TV program, and how would you like to be introduced? And I tell people when I train them, the one part you can control is your title. So do you want to be introduced as former TD, former minister? Do you want to be introduced as former Finegel minister? Do you want to be introduced as a bookie, a bankrupt, author, uh broadcaster, podcaster? How would you like to be introduced? And the answer I give to that is it actually depends, Rosa, on what snake oil I'm selling right now. So that could be I'm a communications coach, I'm this, that, or the other, or I'm a pundit on the election. So it really depends. So I'm a chameleon, but above all, I'm an entrepreneur. Even in politics, I considered myself as entrepreneurial. I was self-employed. I'd go out of business if I didn't get 8,000, 9,000 votes. So even though I've been in the public sector and the private sector, I've worked for myself, I've worked for News Talk, I've worked for TV3, Virgin Media. I've worked now in events. I work for all kind of top events in terms of whether it's the CIF or whether it's the Big Four or whether it's a Chamber of Commerce or whatever it might be. I do events like that in three roles. Uh this week I'm doing the National Property Awards, MC Black Tie, conference, deep dive, moderating, zoom calls in advance, a lot of anal preparation. And then I do guest speaking after dinner speaking. Next week I'm off to Castle Knock, past Pupils Union, 450 boozy people in the intercontinental. So I have moved at 66 years of age to the gig economy, where I literally was recording a different podcast series, a corporate one yesterday and in Greco studios and things. So I'm actually a chameleon, but most of all, I'm a serial entrepreneur, and I have one golden rule, which is I don't speak Latin, I don't do pro bono, and if we can agree on a price, you have me at hello.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

So politics is kind of just a small P. You look back, and that was a life originally, which is no longer what you do.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Yeah, absolutely brilliant to me. Politics became the youngest TD in the doll. 21. Yeah, yeah. Uh no family background in politics, had been a boarding school since the age of eight to 16, knew nobody. Miracle of miracles. Young Finigale put up a candidate on the Urban Council in 79. It was Gareth Fitzgerald's request that, you know, edict that be no one else wanted to run. Didn't think I had a hope of getting in, but to with a view to getting in the next time, and got in by 13 votes. And within two years I was a TD, three years I was a TD. So basically it's a miracle story, right place, right time. Uh, and was eight term consecutive terms in the doll and worked my way up the Greasy Pole. Politics is brilliant to me. It taught me so many skills, and that that is actually uh one of the things that my latest snake holds. So I'm doing a book, which I've I just I'm just back from Spain, and I just completed it with the ghostwriter, and it's called The Game of Life. Everything I learned. I didn't sit the leave-insert, everything I learned since 16 years of age, and it's all practical, it's all applicable, and it's all about you, and I think it'll be funny and interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

And that time as a politician, you would you be pessimistic about politics now when you look at it? Or would you have rose-tinted glasses and say that is a good career to have?

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Well, when you when you go to a lowly club match in hurling or football or rugby, there would be alikadoos saying, Oh, it wasn't like in my time, it was more busy colour, or it was more this or that, or whatever. The truth is that uh I tend to not entirely respect that my time was the golden era. Look, everyone's faced with different challenges. There's never been the resources there is now uh with the corporation tax yield beyond their wildest dreams. Like in 2014 it was 4 billion, it's heading for 36 billion. It's just unbelievable. So basically, you know, everyone has to deal with their own problems, migration issues, uh, AI, sustainability, you know, global climate change. So, in fairness, the hand of cards that every group of politicians get. But I would say this: that there is a distinguishing feature that I I kind of disrespect. I think leadership in a political context is telling people not what they want to hear, which is populist and the easiest thing in the but what they need to know. And and I I find that a little bit lacking, that the level of backbone and courage in in all parties and all politics kind of disappoints me.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

But did politics attract when you're kind of active at school? Well, you went away at eight. No, would you believe it's so? I was active in social presence, uh what did it be? No, I tell you.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Students' unions and stuff like that. No, no, I'll tell you exactly what it was about. I was in St. Columbus and my father got ill and I had to leave early after O-Level, so I didn't set the leave and I went to Gartoena Agricultural College, had a ball. I went there at 16 in Tipperary, was a virgin, hadn't smoked or drank, and I had a PhD in all three uh by the end of that year. A real my best year of my life, I had a great time. But in St. Columbus, there was a public speaking competition, and I entered and I was actually, I spoke for eight minutes and actually loved it. And uh so public speaking and and debating and all that was very much my thing. I was at home farming hard, but in the long winter evenings I was bored, and I kind of said, you know, I'm kind of interested in politics. And I and my father was sort of phenophil, but like a lot of church, disapproved of politics, felt it was kind of sleazy and you neglect your business and your farm and all that kind of thing. So kind of looked down on on politics and disapproved of it. So punch he died then in February of 79, which left me a free hand to stand in the election in June 79 for the local council. But uh basically I I was I wanted to change the world. I I did, and I knew I wasn't a Republican, and I knew I wasn't a socialist. I very much believe in the individual, I believe in the state too, but I I I and I fundamentally believe that all politicians divide into two groups if they have any beliefs at all. One is the government needs to create a scenario whereby wealth is created, and then that wealth can be distributed. And there's a counterview which is, hey, you have a million, okay, let's take it off and we can all have that, a sort of equality socialism, and I'm not a socialist. Being a prod in in the South, didn't see myself as a Republican, never bought into that, because you know, I I would have with Garrett believed in you've got to get the consent of seven, eight hundred thousand unionists to whatever future in Northern Ireland, totally against sectarianism, the kind of Glasgow Rangers, Glasgow Celtic, detest it. It detests the the time warp and the tribalism. So I hate Nordies, by and large. I I just think, you know, but for the fact that they have a dependent economy from London of 20 billion a year, like there's no one else would tolerate what they've done. I know Belfast Agreement 98, you know, so 30 years later we're heading for, and there's still peace walls, there's still sectarianism, denominational education. I I despair all the good people tend to emigrate. And you know what? Uh so put it like this: my my attitude is I believe in a meritocracy, I believe in an enterprise economy, I believe in creating wealth, I believe that Ireland can't live off its own consumption of even five million people. So we're going to live off the goods and services we sell abroad. I really believe in all that, yeah. And therefore that's why I'm so hot on infrastructure and competitiveness. Do you know we've now gone down to Egypt in the ranking of decision making? Uh it's so bad. Uh we've dropped 11 places.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Uh we, you know, well, you can feel it the way things are not decided or undecided or installed.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Like take the take the Galway bypass, not a million miles away from the Aran Islands. Like I rest my case, you know, 20 years of talking shite.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

You have a fame. I don't know why I wanna speak in open directly. It doesn't come across. You kind of hedge your bets.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Yeah. Well, the point about it is that when you get to 66, I'm doing myself, don't worry. Yeah, no, you you actually you actually and this was when I started an accidental media career in April 09 out of a clear blue sky, my business was tanking. And I met two guys from News Talk and Dennis O'Brien. How would you like to co-present News Talk Breakfast? Get up at four in the morning with Claire Byrne. And I looked around and said, What? I had no training. I had no training. They said when the red light goes on, talk start talking, and when it goes off, stop drawing. But the point about it is this that it it gave me a lifeline for till July 2020 when I left Dublin and left the full-time media and all the rest of it when I just went in. So, like my political career, my media career, I'm so thankful that at the right time, like I'm very if I had known how important pensions were and the value of public sector pensions, like I am now the beneficiary of public sector work. And I had no idea when I was in politics that that was a really smart thing to do in terms of you know, you could make millions, but it mightn't pay you that much of an annuity. So I I I I believe that I'm really lucky. I have no chips off my shoulder, and I'm very thankful. Like I have four adult children now. My third one is getting married in the summer, and I'm in reasonably good health. I've had a major problem with my back, but you won't die from a back problem the way you will from cancer or cardiac stuff. So I'm I'm at peace with the world, and uh basically, I mean, actually, while I'm busy, I have sort of taken on board some youngsters that I rate in different walks of life, and I mentor them a bit, and I get a kick out of that. And I listen to you, do they? Actually, not only that. Because in the book, the in the book, so I've I've had great privilege in my life, whether it's captains of industry, whether it's politics, being T-shik or Secretary General, whether it's the arts, whether it's sport, in so many spheres I've met these people. So leaving aside I've thought together. And the main thing that I've learned is they all, irrespective of their field of endeavor, have the same traits that have made them successful. And it's to do with old-fashioned things like preparation, hard work, more hard work, and even more hard work, attention uh attention to detail and and all of the perseverance and resilience and all these things. And and the book will lay out all of these things in a very And curiosity is a main thing, isn't it? Yeah, as you get older, curiosity is important because like I I I remember going to Richard Bruton's 40th anniversary of being a TD in Clontarf was a dinner, and I served in cabinet with him and all the rest of it. And we're both elected the same day in 1981. And I'd be saying to Richard, you know, I left after 20 odd years and and and he 21 years, he was there four years. And I said, Richard, for fuck's sake. I mean, like, have you nothing else to be doing with your life? Because the same old constitution. And every Friday he would do constituency visits. And I said, What is it that sustains you? And he said what you just said, curiosity. Now, I I think there's more interesting things to be curious about myself. But at the at the end of the day, if you lose curious, and I the same with Pat Kenny. So Pat Kenny is 76, and he's as able and as talented a broadcaster as ever, and you know, whether it's the Middle East or whatever, his attention to detail and his knowledge and his experience and his his uh enthusiasm for it is to do with curiosity. And the day, and I've done major career shifts, the day you lose your curiosity, the day you say, I can lie on the shovel today, I know how to do this backwards, is the day that you you've lost your edge. And so, therefore, curiosity is absolutely vital.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Is resilience important, you? Oh, I mean it's an oxymoron question given your life and experiences, but it's something that people over exaggerate, I think, of what it really means to be resilient.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Well, get knocked down, you know, seven times, get up eight times. It's don't count the number of times you get knocked down, just the number of times you get up, are kind of maxims and adages that I say to people. And oh, nearly always. Like I had a mental health problem in the mid-90s. I had bankruptcy, didn't have mental health problems, because I'd learned how to deal with it, mental exhaustion, uh, getting up at four in the morning, four hours sleep continuously in the 90s. And I realized that it wasn't the problem with my reaction to the problems, even though BSE was pretty difficult. Million tons of beef and nowhere to go with it. Yeah. Um, but all of that uh resilience starts with okay, so we're not gonna have a pity party here. We're gonna take personal responsibility. Shit happens. I could blame 20 people for this situation we now find ourselves in, but there's no point in that. I've got to take responsibility for it. So we've only one life. Let's be positive, let's go forward. What did I learn from this that I didn't know beforehand? And it's amazing you learn a lot more from your setbacks and failures than you'll ever learn from your successes. And so, therefore, uh resilience is all about big A attitude. And and you know, resilience stems from your attitude. No one owes me a living, and I'll only get out of something what I put into it. And even that's your hobby, even if it's golf, even if it's sailing. If you don't work really hard at it, you won't care. So uh resilience is there's no one can teach you resilience. And and the biggest concern I have intergenerationally is You don't sorry, parents have reason you know, like parenting today is is about a consultation and a negotiation. Fuck that. It's about fucking parenting. You're not their best friend. You say no and you teach them that there are limits to everything, and and and you teach them to stand to be like the success of parenting is to create independent living people who can stand on their own two feet and contribute to society. And this idea that you can put people in cotton wool, that you can like everyone, everyone gets a prize. Like life is like a rat race. You know what I mean? And and I see this in terms of the young people that are gonna make it are the young people who aren't starting out with a sense of entitlement with every advantage. They've they they're behind the eight ball, they're snookered behind the pink and the black, and they've got to work damn hard, and they have the right attitude. That makes them resilient. And and so therefore, and the more you go through, the more difficult you go through, the more subconsciously you're resilient. Well, that didn't kill me. Bankruptcy didn't kill me. Like bankruptcy was difficult for me because the banks couldn't make a decision. Um detailed all this in the book full on. Uh Bernard Summers was negotiating with them, and they said, you know, if you gave us 99 cents in the euro, we wouldn't take it. This isn't about money. What? It's not about money. What is it? Of course it's about and so therefore, so therefore, the whole thing of being a former minister and going into exile because Irish insolvency law was based on the 1800 Victorian period. And uh I and I came back and I said, This isn't about me, it's about copying and pasting the 1986 UK Insolvency Act and actually reforming the system. Because as the guy who interviewed me from the State Insolvency Service, uh, remember George Field was his name, he said, Mr. Yates, I've never met you before, but I just want to explain our system to you, and that is that we believe that you have an economic value, and getting you restarted is my job. And provided you utterly conform with all the laws, you don't uh tell any lies, you don't hide any money, I will give you a fresh start. And that's exactly what happened.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, and I've seen interviews you've given where you described yourself as a could be an economic zombie, but the UK offered that path where you could be, as you call economic uh value or factor, or you it changed your perspective, which in Ireland at the time we all remember it was the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah, and I I lobbied very hard. I slated under Kenny and Alan Shatter as Minister of Justice. You really got to change your attitude to this. And now I turn on the radio and there's ads from the insolvency Ireland saying, you come to us with a problem and we'll give you a fair start. So I'm I I hope I in some small way uh as a poster boy for bankruptcy tourism, I actually helped to change that attitude because the feature of entrepreneurship and the feature of business, everything is cyclical. You will have you will have setbacks. And the point is that people in America who've had setbacks are actually more valued because they are maybe more risk-aware, risk-averse, and they actually know how to deal with a crisis in terms of cutting costs or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

You know, I lived there for 10 years and being an economic failure or business failure, blah, blah, blah, was not greeted with doom and gloom where it's here, people shun you in the streets, oh you're man, you know. And that's it's changed now, but in my time when I came back from the States, it was a struggle running your own business. And people looked at that.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

And and sometimes to change things, you have to be resilient, you have to be prepared to go against the tide and say, no, this whole pearl-clutching, you know, condemnation of business. A biggest, a big, a big factor in the housing crisis was for a decade we thought it was all right to condemn developers.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

And and like and this is a media thing, and uh the media is anti-business. Uh, the mainstream media, uh so the reason why I was a success in the media is that the whole mainstream media, I can tick the following boxes. So they are generally left of center. They don't they favor more public expenditure, more public services. Secondly, they're definitely liberal. They're very liberal on transgender rights and every other type of right. They are very pro-regulation, nanny state. They're probably woke, they're probably into every DEI initiative and so on. And and you can go through all the lists, they're pro-migrant and all that kind of thing. And I kind of said to myself when I went on media that I was never considered myself a journalist. Actually, even to say, yeah, I hear all that, but I want to agreeably disagree and put this opinion forward, there's a huge market for that. And sorry, immediately you'd be called fascist, uh, Nazi, all this kind of name-calling, racist, misogynist, and all this. But you know what? And I always say to people when you're involved in a controversy, no matter how well you manage it, the public are gonna make up their own mind on you. And you have no control over that. Uh, you can only give them the facts as you see it. And so, therefore, uh, and politics teaches you that you're not gonna win every argument, and you've got to be professional and accepting about that. And public opinion is also cyclical. Uh, but at the end of the day, I, you know, one of the reasons I'm speaking to our discs is that Isla Discs is that actually we don't have adequate freedom of expression in this country because there is a coterie of people, and I include RTE, the Irish Times, Laterally, News Talk, I'd include all the print media, and they're all saying the same thing. And it's it's not good. And that's why you have 17% spoiled votes.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah. They're all in the same bubble. I agree with you. Yeah, yeah. And in terms, are you misremembering the hardship you went through? You're very matter-of fact the way you describe bouncing back after you know bankruptcy in the UK, living in Wales. But it wasn't that easy for you personally day to day, was it? Well, would you believe or Deirdre or the family?

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yeah, no, so yeah, so Deirdre would fly in every three weeks to Cardiff and I'd drive over because I had a car over there and we'd have weekends and that. The kids didn't come over that much, maybe the obit in the summer. I decided I wasn't going to be a token. Fly back, fly back. Or your co-me, yeah, center of many. I said, look, I will just do this and serve it out. I wrote 170,000 words, and I'm not a writer. And I I one finger typing with a dragon thing, an audio uh printing thing. So that was a piece of work. But to be honest with you, from 16 up to whatever age I was when I went over there, 2011, 2012, I spent every minute working. And I actually loved the fact I could go to the local in Swansea, I could watch the racing. I could actually, you know what, I'll go on a train to Encanton races today, or I'll take off to London. And I loved the trains and all that. And Swansea had a good station, a good night. I could go up to the Yeti. I actually had a ball from that point of view that I didn't have much money. You see, like section twelve. You see, you've got to be your own best accountant and solicitor. Yeah. Key bit of advice. So I had read the UK Insolvency Act Inside Out, and I read section 12, if you have a superannuation pension, which I did from public service, it was unaffected. It's not like a pension pot. So I was still so I was I was bankrupt, but I was never broke, Russell. And and and that was important. And I was able to sustain myself and and and and I realized then actually I don't ever have to work again because I have enough. Because I actually live a frugal enough life. I don't I don't drive a fancy car, I don't have a holiday home, I don't want anywhere. A couple of pints and Dawson's bubble to me, you know what I mean? So and and and a bottle of red wine, and away you go, and I have my family and five grandchildren. So I I'm I'm blessed in terms of all these things. But to be honest with you, yes, there were some very, very tough times in Swansea, and I tend to airbrush them out because like if if you go around and say, so what was the five things that most upset you or hurt you about? Like I kind of felt the whole system because the state owned the bank was against me. But I said to myself, hey, catch yourself on here, Ivan. Is there are you going to benefit for one iota or one second by having a pity party? No. Just use this time, press the delete button on your past life by getting the book out there, purge your past, and go back onto news talk as soon as possible and reinvent yourself and just work even harder. And then subsequently I had a problem which my home was caught. My black stoops where I'm speaking to you from in Ellis Gorthy and the Yates are here since 1880. And that was a thing. And basically, long story short, uh section 283, I knew within three years, if they hadn't got your home, and because my mother had retained a life interest in it, they couldn't get at it in the Irish courts, that you could get it back free gratis. The week before the three years was up, AIB bought out the remainder of man interest and consumption. And I actually spent three and a half years in the Irish High Court, cost me 400 grand uh to fight the case to say that that was an illegal transfer in breach of the Family Home Protection Act, Section 4, 1976 Act. Again, you have to be owned by Slister, and I got the help of a Barstool lawyer who I've become very friendly with and a business since uh saved my life. And uh so uh to have my family home back it was pretty, pretty, pretty important to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

But you're obviously mentally very strong. Were you ever at a very touchy moment through all that? Uh like it's amazing having lived it on the through the media, seeing how what you went through and having my own issues. Well, first of all, so frankly, is this stunning?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Well, to put it like that, a couple of techniques that I would find, and this is in the book, The Game of Life, absolute brilliant book. Uh that's coming away. Well, is it out too? First, yeah, first thing first thing you need to learn is to let certain things whistle by your left ear. Yeah. So if I went on Twitter and I was reading toxic stuff from people who never created a job, never employed anyone, I really don't take that seriously. You know, how could a bookie go broke? Yeah, my pension and all that kind of. So, first of all, let learn to let things whistle by. In the moment of dealing with a crisis, it's very important that you focus on the detail and say, okay, what's my best route out of here? How can I crystallize this, deal with this, move on with the rest of my life? So applying yourself is absolute, but one of the techniques that Jim Bulger, the racehorse trainer, taught me is that, and this is what my sort of mental health problem in the 90s taught me. It's not what happens, it's your reaction to it. So if I work really hard today, we'll just say on the insolvency act or what I'm gonna do, and and then you hit five or six o'clock, and there's no more you can do. You just say to yourself, right, I'm not gonna do any more today, not gonna worry about it, but I will come at this at 8 a.m. tomorrow morning and I will deal with it afresh. So that ability to press the delete button, sometimes, I'd say with a bottle of wine or whatever, not three bottles of wine, but one bottle of wine and a full bottle of wine, uh, I find that a good my my personal mechanism of pressing the delete button because worrying and stressing about things as opposed to rationalizing it and dealing with it. So I actually and look, there's there's been things that haven't gone so well. I mean, like like I in in in in in 2006, I left politics in 2002. I employed 420 people at 63 betting shops. I was making 80,000 euros a week myself. I'm making four million a year. Like I I I was I was sucking fucking peace, right? The truth, the truth about it was that the crash changed that, whereby disposable income dropped by 40%, and people had to have clothes and food. They didn't have to have a bet, and and turnover went through the floor. And then we had the online uh thing came along. So what I'm trying to say to you is that Jesus, would I love to have the 20 million of assets that I had in 2006? And I actually saw the crash coming. I had a deal to sell it to William Hill for 18 million, and I went to the boardroom and in North London, and I did not good, not good. Basically, uh the betting tax went up from one to two percent in 2000 and and whatever, emergency budget, Brian Lennon, and the net margin was two percent after you paid everybody. And uh William Hill said, We don't quite understand this. There was no consultation, yeah. And it actually was reversed, but it was too late. And then it was like no, no, no, not only that, they ended up pulling out of Ireland like it was a shit show. Uh, but basically, I had already earmarked then, okay, 40 shops can be salved, salvaged, maybe 35. Boils aren't in this area, and I actually went to an examiner and said, Look, this I I have these pre-sold because they were all freehold. I had no property play, uh, they were all leaseable and and so on. And some of them were on Celtic Tiger rents, and it was quite amusing. I had these landlords and I'd show them the turnover and I'd say, Look, I just need to reduce the rent, you know, from 5,000 a month here. And they'd say, Sorry, what part of the lease haven't you read? When the receiver, when the receiver came along, he said, No, lads, uh, six of you here, I'm kind of busy. There's two cues. If you want your keys back right now, here they are.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

But if you if you if you want uh me to get you a tenant, we're gonna have the rent. We're gonna have market rents. And would you believe it? They nearly all agreed to the market rents. And I could have saved the business if they had agreed to that in advance. So that just tells you about negotiation and life and circumstances and so on. But I mean, at the end of the day, it was all a learning experience. And I suppose at 66, what would I say now? So I have a couple of companies that I operate in, and I'm really a big fan of retirement relief, you know, where you can build up money, charge VAT, pay 12.5%, and after 10 years, and you're over 66, you can liquidate the company and put that money in your arse pocket. It's the best tax planning you can do. So if you're 50 now, go ask your accountant about what is retirement relief. I'm not talking about entrepreneurs' relief, and you and your wife or your partner can have 50% each and you can get$750,000 out each tax-free. And put it like this: I think it's a fair system and it's a good system. So I'm not anti uh entrepreneurship. I'm not anti this. But ask me, will I ever employ four people, let alone 400 people again? I am completely risk averse. Yeah. When I look at the regulatory regime for employers, which we both put like this, it's certainly my indestructible energy for that. Uh that bankruptcy changed that. I kind of said, okay, so I can make X hundred thousand a year myself, right? And I can have no overheads. Like, what's so wrong with that?

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah. Is being Irish important, Ivan? Is it a thing in your head?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, so so the situation is uh that there are Irishness things that I don't buy into.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

I don't buy into Glasgow, Celtic, GAA, Catholic, Republican, monoculture.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

What I love about Ireland is the size of it. Everything is a village. Asher will have a pint. That whole that whole personality, yeah, humor that you don't get in a large, impersonal country of 60 million people. I love that. I love the moderate climate, although as I'm getting older, I'm a bit pissed off at January.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Well, you're away for the last six weeks is paid zero. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

I'm sorry, that could be a lifestyle thing. Because I don't mind the winter up to Christmas. Yeah. But I'm starting to get pissed off. And January and February rain. When even the racing at Lingfield is called off, it's not good. Okay. So that that is a that is that that's just a grumpy old man. Okay, so so that that that that's fine. So Irishness. So I love our mix of sport. I'm a sports fanatic. So the mix of hurling, rugby, racing, I'm big into Greyhound racing. I'm doing the televised three big finals, the Kirby final, Limerick, the Derby final. I do it with Virgin Live an hour every year. And and and the Laurels in Cork. Love that. Love dogs, have a local dog track here. I they're salt of the earth to me. Those those rural pursuits is very much part of it. So as Ireland has become 80% urbanized, not terribly keen on all of that. I'm old-fashioned and old school in that. So I love rural Ireland. I love the freedom of association. I love the fact that you can say almost what you like and you can you can associate with who you like. And that is really, in the context of all the changes in the world, uh, that is really not to be underestimated. I think the fact that we're the only English-speaking language in the Europe EU is is a huge passport to success, whether you want to go to Canada, Australia, or the EU. It's a great thing, and we should be uh proud of that. Um I love everything from Sky Sports and all the UK sports that, you know, the the most devoted United or Liverpool, in my case, Man City fans, are Irish people. So that's I like all that. I love the pub culture, I love the social culture. So there's there's a lot of things I find having worked really hard in the 80s with the Lexic Garfus Show to create a more liberal Ireland, get the state out of the bedroom contraception, divorce abortion, that now the most illiberal people are people who disagree. So I mean, I actually see the Maria Steen and I say, actually, hold on a second. They could be right, there could be enough-like, I haven't a clue. But the point is this I would defend their right and their freedoms to be Catholic conservatives, you know what I mean? Because that's what enriches society. Yeah. So this idea that we all have to conform to the mainstream media culture that I don't uh is is I think a worsening the quality of life. You know, like you take the vitriol against Greyhound racing or even horse racing, and I get the welfare issues and so on, but they all have muzzles on them now. Like it's not as if that has been ignored. But at the end of the day, I wouldn't live anywhere else other than Ireland. I'm not like I would never go to Spain in the summer months because I hate 40 degrees. Yes, too moderate. So I I I actually love Ireland. I I've been to every county, I've been to most nooks and crannies, whether it's events, whether it's politics, whether it's 50, 60 beton shops, whatever it is. So I I I could, you know, I you say Ballon ah, you say so. We since 1970, my father bought a holiday home in Trumakidi, uh in in in in Gortmore, in in so I I just love the West of Ireland. I love uh uh uh going into Castle Bar, Ballin Robe, uh Westport, uh, and I'm gonna do it a lot more. And uh so the the point is this, I I suppose what I'm describing is the bits of Ireland that I like, yeah, and the bits I'm nostalgic about, and I don't expect everyone to grit, but this narrow definition of Irish of sort of dev and GAA, and I hate that kind of limiting thing. And while I have reservations about I'm all in favor of legal migration, 50,000 a year, no problem, the jobs are here. I have a problem with illegal migration, I think it's uncontrolled, and I think there are real problems that we just can't sustain the housing thing and other things there. And so I worry about that, and and there are elements of criminality and so on, but at the end of the day, I'm a live and let live person. So if other people have different definitions of Irishness, I'm inclusive in that and I'm I'm happy about that.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah, and the things like the language is not I don't speak Irish, uh, so I don't get all that because I grew up abroad. So the I use every night. You describe it, and I can relate to some of the parts I can't.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

I get into awful trouble for flagging the Irish language, saying only 16,000 people speak it all day, every day. Uh the money we put into it, and you know, whoever got a job abroad from the Irish language. So I get into awful trouble because uh I'll tell you a funny story. I was presenting the Tonight Show one night and there was someone on for Conrad Gailga, and they were saying we should have, you know, this and that bilingual and ram it down. And I said, I let I'll I let her on, and then I said, you know what? You people in Conrad Gailga, give me the pick. You remind me of ISIS. You have no mandate, no popular mandate, no elected mandate, and you ram this, your cultural terrorists, and you ram it down people's throats, whether they want it or don't want it in terms of compulsory leavings or not. Well, the poor lady, she got apoplectically upset, and she objected to the BAI, the broadcasting authority of Ireland, that this was outrageous because at this time ISIS were beheading people, videoed live in orange jumpsuits, and for Ivan Yates to compare Connor and Nigga get to this. So the poor producer and the editors and Virgin Media, oh Ivan, Jesus, you're the fucking glory. What are we going to do about this? And I should try's only joking. You know what I mean? Like I was exaggerating, it was hyperbole and all the rest of it. So they put in an excuse to the BA saying, this is what Ivan does. People understand that he's exaggerating, he's winding people up, he's slagging people. And you know what the BA found? Yeah, this is what Ivan Yates does.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

But it is what you do, absolutely. And smoking a bottle. Is that you? That's one of my many ones. And is there poetry or phrases or stuff that you uh are you literally that way, literally minded, poetic? Oh, stock. You're totally practical, pragmatic.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

No, I mean yeah. So so the whole, you know, I sometimes say my great-great-grandfather was WB. Spelled differently. Jack, Jackie was an uncle of mine. But it was spelled differently. But the point about it is this that I'm a Philistine when it comes to the arts. Like uh, I'd have to go to Wetford Opera, you know what I mean, as a TD. They let you in with the no, no, no, no. That they they give me a free seat after the opening night and all this kind of thing. Because they were invariably looking for state money and handouts and all this kind of. And I was quite happy to support that in every way possible. But Jesus, like they take all night to die in the singing in a language. I can't understand a word of what they're saying. And and all like with my back, like I have a problem in a restaurant. I have to get a banqueting, a bench seat so I can lie sideways on my back. I'm actually speaking to you and kneeling. But the point about it is this sitting in a chair, like actually, I went to the West End recently with my daughter, and I had to stand back. It was quite funny. I was standing at the back, and this kind of jobs worth came along and said, sorry, you can't sit there, you can't stand there, you're blocking a fire. Sorry, exactly. So I said, I just in my back. I just I just can't sit. I said, I don't mind, I can leave or whatever. And I was, you know, I was quite relaxed about it. And they they produced a box that was empty, and I could kneel in the box. So I had the best seat in the house. But the the the point the point I'm making is that I am a Philistine, like I just art, poems. I used to, I I used to take the piss out of uh Michael D. Jesus Christ, an old poet. Like, where where do we get him from? And like it was it was all kind of just a bit of joke. Uh, but like at the end of the day, would I pay good money to watch any play? You know, and then when they're plays and the one actor is doing three different casting in three different roles, you know, I kind of say, Well, look, please, this makes more sense. So I'm a big fan of Netflix. Yeah, I'm watching Lincoln Lawyer at the present time. Yeah, I love it. Series three. Yeah, yeah. No, no, it's it's actually on Netflix, and I'm watching it like it's uh ages old, but I love live sport, but I really am into all the Netflix things and the movies thing. So I I I'm into drama, I'm into thrillers, and I'm into all that kind of stuff. I'm just not into the kind of makey up stuff. Yeah, and music? Music. So the type of music I like. So if I'm in bad form, yeah, I would play a video of Lewis Capaldi uh Before You Go uh from Glastonbury. And so Ed Sheeran, somebody because you know his granny's from Gory. So I I I uh the shape of you, and the other one I I kind of like is uh Adele, uh someone like you. So I like these, and I never had much emotional torment in terms of I'm married to the same woman uh for 40 years, and I kind of was going out with her for four years before that, and so therefore I I haven't the angst that is underwriting these lyrics of pain and parting and all this kind of good stuff. So that at the end of the day, but I I actually find a kind of melancholy with some of the very melancholy, emotional type of songs for Mr.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Tufts.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

Absolutely, absolutely. And like I so you asked me what I like, then I like and you go tear your idea.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

No. Now, looking back in your life then, I and you say where you are now compared to where you were when you left Columbus at 16, went to Gortini or wherever it was. Does that make sense to you? Can you draw a line of the city? No, I don't absolutely so so so my father died 24th of February 1979. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

And I suddenly realized, hey, you have no education qualifications, you've no income. I was under tenor a week. And this inheritance lack that you came home for, this, this, this million pound asset of 165 acres and a lovely house, should my mother live for another 40 years and needed all the income from the farm? So I I suddenly realized, what? I have no no no no basis to do anything. Jesus Ivan, you better get up early, you better work hard, you better stay out late at night and do something useful. And I found politics then, and politics led me ultimately to business and led me to media and and so on. But like I've always taken the view as an early school lever. Jesus Ivan, you better learn something new today because you know fuck all, you know what I mean? And so that's what I mean by attitude and so on, and all the businesses I went into.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

But yeah, but that that's fascinating to me. You talk to me as if somebody I but dan, that's all learned, that's all acquired and all that.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

And and and so let's be let's be clear. When I went into politics, I was a complete interloper. All the people who were sons and daughters and nephews and nieces of incumbents said, sorry, what's this what's this guy doing in politics? Yeah. When I went into bookmaking, Patty Power and all Stuart Kenny, and all the people who had been the power family and so on who had been in what's this interloper doing? And then when I went into media, this guy's not a journalist. He's had no training in journalist. In fact, he disrespects journalism. Was it whether it was being Church of Ireland or your help being outside of natural the great thing about being Church of Ireland was, you know, this kind of thing that if you get the reputation for being hard hard working, you can uh extend that okay. The thing about being Church of Ireland, oh, the Protestants are very honest. People assumed that I was a person of the utmost integrity because they knew proddies were very tweedy and all that, but they were incredibly honest to their own detriment. And so Niels uh traded out and all of that, and basically, uh so that was a huge asset to me. And I got about two, like I used to say I needed five Catholic votes for every Protestant project. But it was it was confined to two and after that, but it was a good start, and it was a help and all that kind of thing. And it wasn't in any way sectarian, it was just an identity thing, but like at the end of the day, at the end of the day, being a Protestant was a point of difference and a huge asset to me.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

And parenting skills, do you want to talk about those? Your parenting skills.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

I covered this in the book as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

I was even very good at changing nappies.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Yeah, so situation is the Irish Times. Jen O'Connell was doing a series on it, and she I did an interview. And actually, then when she went to go do a podcast, she got least from me first because I was the only one who sort of belled the cat and said, never change the nappy, don't want to change the nappy. The shit and the smell of everything. And so, what I do, or say getting up in the middle of the night when they'd be crying, I I'd I'd nudge Deirdre. The great thing, the great thing about cooking and ironing and all things, do it crap. Do it so badly that anyone else will step into the breach to do it themselves because you're just so chronically bad. If you actually develop any attributes to do this stuff, you'll have to do more of it. So we had a simple, a simple equation. Deirdre, I'll make the money, you get the kids. And and but I also would say the tragedy of parenting, yes. So the first six weeks are the worst, and then the first six months, and they're completely dependent on you. They sleep intermittently every four hours and all that kind of, but it all gets better, and it gets better to the point when they're five or seven, it gets really better, and then you can actually talk to them and relate to them.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

And it's just it's just yeah, as I say, they become people.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Absolutely. And and it just gets more rewarding and you learn from them and you give and take, and there's setbacks and rocks on the road and things they don't understand, things you don't understand in terms of their their their modern cultures and all of that. But that is all life enhancing. But up to three, they don't remember a bloody thing. There's no such thing as gratitude. Like I I I visited a relative of mine, an in-law of mine, and they were very ill in hospital. And to be honest with you, between Spain and everything, seven weeks elapsed that I hadn't visited him. And he he he'd actually come out of a coma and he remembers nothing of the seven weeks. And I feel like that with children. I understand that all the work you do for him. There's no graduate because they don't remember any of it. But my my thing about parenting is my default position is ask Deirdre. Deirdre has been a saint in terms of she's good at parenting, she's a good mother, she has a rock of common sense, she disciplines them, she was a teacher herself, and she's good at it, and she's a very good homemaker. And the difference between a house and a home is Deirdre for me.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

And and so basically And she's been a sounding board for you over the years.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Oh no, so not only that, sounding board. She said, What the fuck did you say? I never like I could defend Trump or something. She'd go like she's not into politics, but I can tell, like even last night, you know, there was things Larry Goodman. Why are you getting yourself into this 30 years ago and four years ago? And like so, like my my attitude to all of the controversy is you can't make an homage without breaking eggs. Do you really, if you want to be utterly bland and boring, you will be completely disregarded. If like what sells in this country, no matter what it is, and write this down, Rossett, what sells is difference. If you're selling the same insurance, the same financial service, the same healthcare service as everyone else, it won't sell. What is your point of difference? And if you can't authentically say what your difference is and explain it and articulate it to your staff and to yourself and to your customers, you are going nowhere. And and and tell you what, if you don't have a point of difference, go find one. And so therefore, it never bothered me, people disagreeing with me, because I try and be agreeable. I like I always try and play the ball rather than the person. So I'm not going to fall out with you over this, Rossa, but I just think you're you know talking nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

All right. Last question. If somebody wanted to go into politics now at 21, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Well, first of all, follow your dream. If you really want to be a politician, and I I do mentor young people and I do encourage them, whatever it is, whatever it is, if it's curling, if it's whatever, if it's remunerative or if it's a waste of time. Like I said, people don't do an arts degree. Like, where where are you going to get a job unless you want to be a teacher? Uh, and and all of that good stuff. So you give advice, but what I would say to anyone is follow your dream. But I tell you what, just be prepared. Politics is the roughest, harshest 24-7 business. If someone rings you on a Sunday morning and says, I want to talk to you about my housing problem, my planning problem, my welfare problem, 101 problems. You are a public servant. And you've got to be very humble. You've got to have the patience of a saint. And the day you think you could do a shortcut and not do that, you're finished. So, and I reached that point around the millennium. I said, you know, I really, there's nothing more I want to do or learn about this. I want out. And so, and I always said in my twenties, I get out of politics at 40, and I went say, Well, that's daft. Now it's quite de rigueur. A lot of people do it. Like it's something you do for 20 years of your life, you give it your best, and you learn from it and apply it to other sectors. And I now see a whole, you know, from Brian Hayes to a whole rig, 23 Fine Gel TDs left at last day, and they're all looking for nuclearers. They can't all be public affairs advisors. But you know what? There's great up the skills you learn, the people's skills you learn in politics. You know, and and you do that through a battering of people abusing you for mistakes you make. So you learn kind of not to be shy, not to be timid, you learn how to listen acutely, you learn how to make small talk and all those kind of skills. They are really valuable skills in in in other walks of life. When's the book out? So it's it's out in the autumn. Uh Gill publications. The manuscript is completed. So you know, like when I wrote when I wrote the 170,000 words and so on, uh, 60,000 words had to be taken out. Like Terry Prone is working on it. And then uh uh Hashek were oh, you can't say that. You can't say that. That's true, it happened. No, you can't say that. So so I I'm expecting a bit of blowback on that, but do I care not really?

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Look forward to Ivan Eats. Thank you for joining Aaron on this today.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

A pleasure, Rossa, and I wish you personally every continued success and happiness. Thanks, likewise, Aaron. Cheers.