Niall O'Dowd

1. The Emigrant’s Ascent (1970s – 1980s)

Born in Tipperary and raised in Drogheda, O’Dowd’s narrative began with a traditional Irish education at University College Dublin (UCD). Emigrating to the U.S. in 1978, his early years were spent in the working-class trenches—playing part-time football and working as a house-painter in San Francisco.

His narrative shifted when he founded The Irishman newspaper in California, marking the beginning of his role as the primary chronicler of the Irish diaspora. Moving to New York in 1985, he launched Irish America magazine and the Irish Voice (1987), effectively becoming the media architect of a new, professionalized Irish-American identity.

2. The Secret Diplomat (1990s)

The core of O’Dowd’s historical legacy lies in his role as a "daring diplomat."

• The "Connolly House" Group: O’Dowd organized a powerful group of Irish-American leaders (including billionaire Chuck Feeney) to act as an "honest broker" between Sinn Féin and the U.S. government.
• 
  
• The Adams Visa: His narrative reached a climax in 1994 when he successfully lobbied President Bill Clinton to grant a visa to Gerry Adams. This move was a massive gamble that paid off, acting as the primary catalyst for the IRA ceasefire and the eventually successful peace process. He became the vital backchannel between the White House and Belfast.
• 
  

3. The Digital Transition & Advocacy (2000s – 2020s)

As media shifted, so did O’Dowd. He launched IrishCentral.com in 2009, which remains the largest digital hub for the global Irish community.

• Immigration Rights: A recurring theme in his life has been advocacy for the "undocumented Irish." He co-founded the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform (ILIR) to fight for those living in the shadows of the American legal system.
• 
  
• The Writer’s Voice: He has authored several books, including Fire in the Morning (about the Irish on 9/11) and his autobiography, An Irish Voice.
• 
  

4. Modern Standing (2025–2026)

In late 2025, O’Dowd appeared on the Aran Island Discs podcast, where he reflected on his four decades in New York. While he saw the physical closure of his Irish Voice newspaper in late 2023, his narrative in 2026 is that of a "Digital Elder Statesman." He continues to use his platform at IrishCentral to influence Irish-American relations and comment on the evolving political landscape in both Dublin and Washington.

Narrative Summary: Niall O’Dowd’s story is defined by leveraging the Diaspora. He proved that the "soft power" of Irish-Americans—their wealth, their votes, and their media—could be mobilized to end a centuries-old conflict in Ireland and secure a seat at the table for the Irish in America

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Iron Island Discs, a podcast series where we talk to Irish people from different walks of life as they reflect on their own journey. Join me, Dr. McDermott, as we explore the many aspects of Irish Disc and what it means to each of our guests through life's ups and downs. Neil O'Doubt, welcome to Iron Island Discs. Thank you very much. Great name. Now the question is: uh, have you been to the Iron Islands ever and when did you go?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

I actually went about uh ten years ago. I do teaching part-time at Columbia Journalism School.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

And I brought a group of students over to Ireland, and it was one of these bus tours, but one of the places that we landed in on a beautiful warm day, very unusual in the middle of April, was the Iron Islands. And we went out, and people were literally in t-shirts, which is highly unusual. Um the place looked magnificent, um, just full of history and culture, and the Americans were just blown away by it. So I have a very pleasant memory of people discovering the island and seeing what a beautiful place it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

And how crystal clear the water is on a good day like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yeah, I know. I mean, you know, I I didn't explain to them, but you know, nine days out of ten we wouldn't have got it for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Exactly. Like I've been there a few times, maybe three, and they've all been good days. I'd be afraid to go back just in case. You know, because you think the water's like Barbados or Bermuda, and it's it's not like that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

And you go by ferry or do you fly? I go by ferry.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yeah. Nowadays people fly, I believe. The old days it was just the old boat.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah, no, it's um it's a special experience, you know. And it reminded me my father was born in the Gail Tubst and Kerry. Oh. And the very same rugged outlook, mountains, beautiful but wild.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

And how'd you describe yourself, Donald, in your immigration forms in the old days, your profession, career? How is that summed up?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Um basically, um a founder and publisher of well, I uh originally had one paper in San Francisco with uh four publications that I published and uh founded. So they were all Irish American papers, obviously. Um Irish America Magazine, Irish Voice, Irish Central, which is online. We had a small paper in Boston and we had a small paper in Chicago. So Tycoon. A Tycoon.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

You always wanted to be a journalist, did you?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yes, I I you know, I I always wanted to do two things. One was come to America, and this will show you how things have changed. When I was young, America was an absolutely inspirational place in my mind, with John F. Kennedy and landing on the moon and just the kind of way they look so different. And so I was always on my mind to go to America, and it was always on my mind to be a writer. But I really thought about it seriously and emigrated to the States, went to California, and started my first newspaper there. So I really lived out my ambition. I can have no complaints about what I did and how much I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

And San Francisco was your first protocol?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yeah, actually, Chicago, where I went to an Irish, one of the Irish football teams. I was a good footballer and I played with them, and then when the winter fell, I said, This place is too cold for me, I'm getting out of here. And uh I went to San Francisco and started my career properly there.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah. Chicago would be great, except for it's freezing near, isn't it? It's a beautiful city because it's freezing in the winter.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

And the big skyscrapers and the beautiful sort of clear evenings in the uh middle of winter in Chicago, but freezing.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Absolutely. Missing an avenue on a windy, cold winter's day is beautiful, but absolutely icicle day, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah. And you came back to New York, didn't you? Then after that.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Yeah, in uh about 1989 I came to New York. 1985. I went to California in 79, and in 85 I had been successful in a small way with my newspaper, and I thought I wanted to repeat the experiment and do it in a bigger city with closer to Ireland with a bigger Irish community, which was obviously New York. So I landed in New York in 1985 and um just began my career properly then.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, and how was that in New York? Was it still uh illegal Irish? It was very Irish, it was different times than later on.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Um there were very large numbers of people coming in because of the very bad recession at the time in Ireland. There was really very few jobs and it was as bad as the 50s for a while.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

So an awful lot of people left and uh came to America. A lot of them undocumented, but honestly, it was nothing like being undocumented today. There was it was really very easy to get in and out. Um there was no free.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

If you knew how to do it. I used to tell the the used to remember the white things on your passport when you went in. If you lost them, they didn't know when you left.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Do you remember that? Right, yeah, yeah. Well, I call a true story, which people don't believe. That I was flying into I went back to Ireland for for a funeral and came back to Chicago and realized going through customs that I had a business card in my pocket. And so I did the only thing I could do was I I ate it. So they they would have caught it on me and I would have been fucked, excuse the language.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

No, I remember applying for a work visa and because I didn't get a J1, and my God, you went over. You you told a bit of Poke Pie to get your tourist visa, but you went over there fearful because if they did check bits and pieces, you'd always have an address somewhere who you're supposed to to call, and that was a telltale giveaway sign.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, it was, but it was um it was very open and very different, and uh immigrant immigrants were not fueled with hatred they are today, which was very unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

So I made my home in New York and started the uh magazine, Irish America Magazine, which was the first Irish American magazine ever to succeed in America. There had been a couple of newspapers, obviously, the Irish Echo, and later my paper, The Irish Voice. But the whole thing was premised on the fact that there was very little knowledge really of Ireland. There was a lot of knowledge of Irish America and truth traditions and history, but an awful lot of the people were unaware of how different Ireland was becoming at the time. And when all the young people coming in, back then it was actually hard to get your hands on news. I mean, we think so much now how easy it is if you turn on your computer and you go on Google or whatever. But back then you waited for the weekly newspaper from Ireland. That was your link to home.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah. And if somebody was traveling out, you'd ask them to bring you a paper. That could be a good one.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yeah, yeah, that was it. I mean, and then a thing was invented called a fax machine, which I was dumbfounded by. I remember going down to the print store and to send in the front page of the Irish Times, and I thought this is some kind of devil's work of magic.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

It's amazing. And if you tell if I tell that to my kids now, Neil, so they think I'm daft, you know, call boxes and coins and yeah, fax machines, what's wrong with you? And you know, to sky what's the sports. I mean, rugby games, Erlingus used to carry out their videos for people in Boston to watch Patty Burks on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, yeah. I earned uh, you know, Norbert Hennessy and the Bronx in New York. Yeah, he'd have his friend uh pirate uh Sunday game from Ireland. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I mean how different is it changed in every sense, but even living in the States in those days was is archaic compared to what's there, and you were there earlier than I was. I was in Boston the early 90s, 99, 19, 91, I mean, and uh those things were still just only starting to happen much in video video matches, you know. So you were there much earlier than me.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, what was very interesting was in retrospect, it was also the age of the beginning, the dawn of the computer age, Apple printers, uh Apple machines, you know, that we'd never heard the likes of. And suddenly the whole revolutionary thing was spreading to to publishing. And um it would actually make our job easier in many ways because people could access information more easily. But it was just a time of of great change and um I was very happy with how the magazine went. It went really did very well right from the beginning and showed that there was a hell of a lot of interest in Irish and Irish uh themes and Irish America as well. So that was um that was a great discovery for me because it was a tough business to be in publishing back then.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah. But it was it was a smart magazine, if that's not broken smoke in your ears. It was a quality magazine, well produced, and it looked very smart.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Well, that's what we wanted was to show that we didn't have to be only in the paper rack and the Bronx. We could be downtown with the with the magazine. And I think one of my proudest days was after the first issue came out, walking through Penn Station and seeing piles of Irish America magazine there and people buying it. So you don't forget those moments, but it was it was a great time.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah, it wasn't a hickory dickory like uh Sony Solden Kilburn type magazine. No, I mean I lived in London, I went to the States and I was working for HP at the time, so I wasn't in the Irish community, but to see your people and your country represented with quality always made a difference as an immigrant.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

That's a very good point because the view of Ireland at the time was even more sentimental than it is now. I mean, people didn't know anything about Ireland really, to didn't know about like the two issues that dominated my publications right through were the north of Ireland and immigration. And so many Americans who didn't know much about either. So it was a big job, but a very uh fulfilling job to fill in the information gap.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

But even uh immigrants who went there had lost touch. I know I remember a guy asking me when I worked at Atlantic City in 1981, he said, um, do you he was Irish? You've been in the States years. He asked me, Did we have washing machines back home and fridges? Do you know what I mean? A lot of people didn't know. No. Yeah, they didn't lost touch, they didn't want to believe it either. Because the reason for being there was they couldn't get that themselves and they stayed at home. So your magazine did lots to make people more informed. And I remember that myself.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

It's a very complex identity, Irish American. I mean, it's a lot more complex than people think, and uh all the issues of your own history and where you came from. I often think of, you know, we came from a great Holocaust, we came from the famine in our millions fleeing to America. There was nothing easy about it ever. And um it was a great tribute to the generations that came before, but in uh in the 70s and 80s they started to change in terms of there was um much more educated kind of people that came over because that was where the jobs were and Ireland was starting to wake up and come into the 28th century.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Right. No, I mean I clearly I've said this a few times. I remember uh 1991 or two, my first trip uh was to Vegas on business or something. And I always remember U2 were coming on the radio, the local radio, and suddenly I you know you'd heard them in the downtown market only years ago, kind of thing. But then suddenly you felt this is a new image of Ireland. If you hear U2 on US FM radio, maybe we have we're starting to make it or get noticed. Do you know what I mean? That to me was a resonating moment of not being the hiddly diddly Irish, and then you suddenly think, well, self-belief and pride and this and that.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. I actually think the Irish soccer team had not for most of the tremendous identification, not just with Irish-born people in America, but American Irish as well. And they were the first great diaspora immigrant team that ever came together in the name of Ireland, and there were black guys and English guys and all kinds of different people. And I I mean, I still remember the greatest day I spent in America, uh, which also was one of the worst days subsequently, was uh in Giant Stadium when Ireland beat Italy in the World Cup. And Tacedic Parking lot with 80,000 people, literally 70,000 with Irish flags and Irish uh support things uh with them. It was an amazing day, and Ireland won 1-0. And then, of course, we were all celebrating, and came the news from Ireland of a terrible massacre in the Pubman County town, Lockin Island, where 10 people had been shot to death. So, right there you had the two extremes, the odd, the new and the old, yeah, uh, and the vicious and the bitter. But um, I still remember that day, the early part of the day in the game itself.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

It was very hot that day, I remember that. Very hot and threshing.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

I remember I didn't have a hat or anything on me. Put my hef and head off.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

But it was some, and I always forget how early Ray Houghton actually scored. Like it was a long drawn.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

And they always say to Ray, would you not have scored a bit later? Because it was just hard.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Yeah, take away the pressure. But um the Ireland had like amazing players then. They had like Roy Roy Keane, you know, the they had Andy, Steve Stunton. Yeah, uh I could probably name that team to be every five minutes because they were great.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

That was just one of the best memories I I have.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Yeah. And that was that the change, one of those changes you can note in your mind of where being Irish became slightly different in the States for you or for everybody? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

It did, it became much more young-oriented, like you were saying about you too. And the soccer team was a great manifestation of that. And then you had a lot of people like Shane McGowan breaking through and a whole different mentality about the Irish Americans. There was still the tradit the traditional ones, but generally what I found was um I was in the middle of uh of a great almost revolutionary movement of the Irish in America coming in in huge numbers again and with very different views of the country uh they left and the country that that took them in. And uh it was just a great time to be Irish in America.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

And you've seen that change over the years, over the decades, I should say, and today it looks different, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Well, what's sad about today is we have no access to America, which is appalling. Uh like since the 1965 Immigration Act, with the exception of Bruce Morrison and Brian Donnelly, there's been no bill or access, legal access to America for Irish people. Which is very sad because we contributed so much to the country. And you think of people like Henry Ford, whose father was an Irish farmer and came to America during the famine, and the legacy that his son left the country, invented the modern automobile. People like the Kennedys, people like Eugene O'Neill, who won the Nobel Prize for Literature, whose father was Irish. This tremendous contribution. And then to suddenly have the tap turned off and no one else could come could come was a pretty negative feeling.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

And you can see that very clearly, can you, with the demographic change of Irish people there?

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Oh yeah, you see it now. I mean, you know, people tell me that uh they'll be lucky to have two hurling teams in Gaelic Park this this year, you know, when when I came first, there was eight or nine. And a lot of the old clubs and organizations, the United Irish counties, which was when I came, like the big one. Now just uh they get maybe 300 where they used to get three thousand.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

And so it has changed and not for the better.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

That's scary, isn't it? I mean, I got in a Morrison visa and then in Boston they spent a lot of money building the Irish Cultural Centre for that very reason. And now you you you kind of think that demographic has changed, so what's the point? And that's sad.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah, well, there is some good science. I mean, the Irish Arts Center in New York raised uh$18 million to build their shining new building on uh uh 11th Avenue. And they're bringing in cultural acts three days a week now. And there are some hopeful signs as well that the love of the culture and all that has transferred to the next generation, and Irish Americans are much more informed with what's happening in Ireland and the trends and the music and all that. So there is some hope, but really it's very sad that having built the country literally with our hands, we now have no access to it.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Yeah. And you think we're that by definition, what you say, we are resilient people, that's not a narrative that we've made up. We are a race that have made a contribution and are tough uh in our history to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, I mean, you think of the enormous, you know, I mean, when the famine came, famine people came, about a million of them came, the population of America at the time was about 13 million. So there was a huge influence on teaching, on judges, on the church, on, you know, uh construction, on uh almost every facet of life the Irish built uh are were part of the the new development and the new the new culture, the new history. And that's kind of come to a halt.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

And in your life, has it been a testing moment or you can say I've had to draw down resilience? Was that 9-11? Was that say COVID or any particular moments you have, Neil, in your own life in that sense?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Waking up in a hotel room and I didn't know how I got there.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

I hope somebody explained it to you. But I just I know for myself, I come back in September of 99. I was just settling back to here, uh, and I went to Slogan to collect something. I was going to town for a meeting, and the Joe Duffy show came on. It was someone like you who was live on the line explaining uh I thought it was the most bizarre, and at the time it was the first one, it was 9.15 or something. He said that must be a small plane crashed by accident. But by the time I got into town, it was then two jets, and then he said, Wow, this is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah, I know I I I did break that story. Yeah, I definitely called up RTE.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

That was you, wasn't it? Talking to Joe.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, I mean, I had no connection other than doing part-time stuff for them, you know. But I called up the guy in RTE and I said, put me on the air, which is a pretty audacious thing to do, but it was a massive story. It was um nothing has gone right since uh I think the country between COVID and and what happened on in September with the World Trade Center. Two events that changed America very much for the worst. Very much for the worst. And I often think of it because nine eleven certainly changed everything. I mean, we went off on these crazy wars, which we should never have been part of. The whole country became a lot more paranoid and insular and dangerous, really. The growth of the Republican Party with their emphasis on violence and crime and all that. And the mentality, you know, people never felt as safe again. And then COVID, which had just a massive influence and still has. I mean, I started out with COVID with 21 employees and a great office set up, lovely situation. Everybody was good friends. Um, and by the end of it, we were all working from home with almost no mental or physical contact with any. And it transformed people's lives, you know. They never got over it, and they're still not over it.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Well, it still has. I mean, coming up here, I was talking to the taxi, the cab driver, as you would say, and it's amazing the fifth anniversary this week of Chatham, that it actually happened. You wonder, did it actually happen? But the the the way we live now as a result of it has changed life forever.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

It has. And uh on the 13th of March, then we had a big event at the New York Athletic Club. We had 400 people booked.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

It's a rough spot, the New York Athletic Club.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

It's for gougers like you. Um it was, you know, the morning of the event, people just said, we're not going. And it was like a pall of fear cast over the city. You went outside, it was come it reminded me of 9-11, there was nobody on the street. Yeah. Nobody. And I remember that image from 9-11 going out of my apartment and just like uh, you know, uh a bad movie with where the world gets gets destroyed. It felt like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah, Ridley Scott couldn't have written anything like that at all. You know, it's very frightening. And so now you think it did ever happen? People have just moved on in some ways as if it didn't there was no COVID, and 9-11 has changed life for everybody traveling. So the legacy's there.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Well, you know, somebody said to me there's only 25% of the people living in New York were there from 9-11. I mean, it just shows what a kind of a city it is. People move in and out in their thousands. But it it it just ended your whole sense of safety, and it was like what my friend who was in the army during the Second World War, a very great guy called Don Keel. Oh he remembers very well everybody gathered around car radios listening to the news that Pearl Harbor had been attacked, yeah. Knowing in his own mind that nothing would ever be the same. That was the same with 9-11, the same with COVID. There were three moments where the world changed.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Are you positive about this place now, given where events are? It's not a trick question, but this week has highlighted it for Irish people anyway, uh, how important that relationship could be or not be. So it's uh it's very different now, as you were saying.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah, I mean, the community remains strong. It's a different community. We're now much more into the Irish American because the Irish born are not there anymore. And um, you know, things like the Irish Arts Centre are great monuments to the younger generation, and there certainly is a tremendous liking and still interest in Irish culture. But you know, the great days, the days when we took part in the peace process, played a major part here in America in the the days of the Morrison visas, the days of the Dunley visas. That's all gone now. That's not gonna ever get repeated. And um, there's a certain sense of, you know, the Irish took it so far, but it's almost it's impossible without a new stream of people every few years. Organizations just atrophy and go out go out of date.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

But you must find it particularly uh difficult to comprehend given your your closeness to people like the Clintons, your uh position in the Irish community, the work you've done in the north. I mean, it must be a very bizarre situation to see all that game uh the plan in front of you just disappear in a new era where nothing really matters like that anymore. Well, thanks for cheering me up. No, but I look at it and say, because you and your brothers of politicians like go into politics with positive public good, and it must be it must be depressing to see the world change before your very eyes so dramatically.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, it is. Uh I mean, what when we became involved in the peace process and when we won the visa for Jerry Adams, and I knew that was the day that the whole thing was going to change forever. Irish America played a very powerful role there. But you could argue that, you know, that was something that reached a successful conclusion. There was nowhere else to go with it. But with immigration, I feel very, very strongly that, and this is this is where I would probably surprise people. I think Trump will be good for immigration. I don't think in the short term he's going to be good for immigration, but I think there's going to be such a shortage of people and such a shortage of skill within the next two years that they're going to have to revisit the whole immigration issue and do the right thing, which is put together proper immigration reform.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

You think that will happen?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I do think that will. I do, yeah, because it's inevitable because they don't have enough people in the workforce. And uh I had a conversation yesterday with a guy who's relatively high up in the Republican Party, and he said, just keep an eye on it. They're already talking about merit feases, feas is given to people with higher educations, perhaps in other countries or whatever. But there's a very I think there's still a significant move to be made on immigration.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Well, that's healthy to know it. It makes sense, and especially looking at what's happening in the UK with Brexit, you can't survive without certain people coming to help you work and you need them. So there's a logic behind what you say, even though when you look at TV now.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

The logic is he fired everybody in charge of the nuclear weapons. I mean the the amount of ignorance, but but not to get into that too much. The one positive thing I do take, and I have a good track record in predicting things in Irish America, I think there will be another chance with immigration.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah. And politics, do you do you think that was your calling? Do you miss is that something within the family? Obviously, your brother was in politics. Public service is something obviously they're all drawn to, is it?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Yeah, we got that from my father, who was a very committed man to he joined, he was a we were living in Tipperary at the time, and you know, he joined every organization imaginable.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Uh like voluntary community groups and all that. So we we grew up in a house where the idea of going out and visiting people in old folks' homes and all that was very much ingrained in in the character. So it it's it's a great feeling, and you know it yourself, you know, to make somebody happy who you know, either through contact or keeping in touch with.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

I think that's one of the things I worry about. The 80s generation, which is me, is now at the retirement age. And I know from talking to the Irish centers that there are an awful lot of shut-ins, people who maybe never made it back to Ireland or didn't do what successful people did, just worked.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Whatever construction job they could get or whatever. So I think there's a whole issue there as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

Yeah. And all I know is for myself, and I've said to you many times, when I was there and my friend Pantra, who's now deceased, broke his neck. The Irish voice was a huge, played a huge role in his recovery and the reaching out for him. And people forget how important that is, you know, to people.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Well, I mean, the the lack of community papers, not just the Irish voice, but in in in every in every small town in America, there was always a newspaper. And the newspaper was the guarantee against the kind of fascism and group think that Trump and these guys are pushing, where somebody would just show up at the local board planning meeting or some other specific forum and write a story about it and uncover something or make something work better. I think one of the great tragedies of the internet is that we we all have opinions, but we don't have people properly able to research stories.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

And I think that that's come back to bite us so badly. I mean, when you uh yesterday I was talking to a reporter from actually the New York Times, and he's a friend of mine for years, and he said, you know, he can't believe that a story which is true, that Donald Trump will have lunch with you for five million dollars is is a true story and is not getting reported. That's true. It's true. Yeah. The idea that uh a president of the United States could sell himself like that and he gets his money in Bitcoin so nobody knows about it. You know, when you see that and you realize the media has an enormous job to do.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

And uh unfortunately a lot of them are not doing it.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

And how's Irish Central doing in terms of communication? Is that fulfilling its role online for you?

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yes, it is. I mean, I'm not actually connected to Irish Central anymore. Right. Um I sold it on to um Liam Lynch, who's now the CEO there, he's a cool guy. You know, it got hit by COVID as well. I mean, everything got hit by COVID. And just in the last three months, uh Liam was telling me the advertising is starting to come back. So it was never easy anyway, because making money online with clicks was a ridiculous way to try and run a business. You know, like all the other publications, they they have a niche, which is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Yeah. And to switch gears, uh Neil, is there music that's traveled you over the years that gives you uh inspiration, strength? Or is there one song that you turn to? Or don't tell me you don't like music at all, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

No, I can tell you right away. Mary Black is song for Ireland.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Right. And that's the go-to song, is it?

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Absolutely. It's it's it's everything about Ireland I love. And she's uh she's got a wonderful voice and seems like I've never actually met her. Have you noticed?

SPEAKER_01 33:38

That's that was our next question. I'm sure you had met her.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Maybe I did meet. I know I met her sister Frances, um, but I'm not sure that if I met her or not. But that song is to me is uh the embodiment of Irishness and and certainly my memories of the place.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

And you come back regularly, do you?

SPEAKER_00 33:59

I come back uh usually once at Christmas and once in the summer, so twice a year.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

And Estrada at home in Verticamas or his tip.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Estrada, yeah. Um you know it's so funny. I mean, we talk about America changing.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Yeah, don't get started on you think it's changed, deal?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Has Ireland changed? I mean, doesn't does a word fly with the change, yeah. But dramatically, you know. Uh I'm still very proud of in Irish, how always well, but I do think that what's happening over there now, you know, it's just a mirror of America. The rich people are running things years ago when I was growing up. I'm sorry to digress, but a rich a rich person was like the local doctor or something, probably making 40 grand a year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Well, the term rich was valued was a different type of term rich, yeah. I hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Well, I mean, the the gap between the rich and the poor was not huge. Whereas now, both in America and Ireland, there's such a transformation in how many rich people there are. Yeah, something has been badly lost in translation.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah, well, we're we're we're closer to Boston and Berlin, as Mary Harney would uh say in her time. And it was very Americanized, we're very New York, Boston. We lived by the same rules and kind of measures, Neil.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And as you said, you watch The Apprentice. I mean, we're fucking these idiots. Right. And um I just preferred many things about the old Ireland, the decency, and the the sense of community.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

The banter and the say hello to the Evening Herald salesman, you know. I mean, some things have gone for good, Neil, but that's they say it's progress. I don't believe it is, but that's the way it is.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yeah, and we sound like two old codgers.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Is that meet for a bite and talk about it? Do you have a quote uh in your head that you turn to to summarize Iron or your the your the way you see the place by any writer? Um that's a good question. I mean I've used it before. There's a great one by Ed O'Brien. She says, When anyone asks me about the Irish character, I say, look at the trees, maimed, stark, misshapen, but ferociously tenacious. That's a beautiful quote. I think that to me that sums up a lot of things, Neil. It's maybe too profound, but I think it's uh classic in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Can you can you text me that? Oh well.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

If you have any better ones, tell me.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

The only ones I can think of are are very Oscar Wilde type, not serious.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah, but being Irish is still very, very important to you.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Oh, yeah, I mean it's the very core of my being. And um, you know, I uh I have a daughter and seeing her grow up proud of her Irish heritage is a real thrill for me. Um because it's a very positive culture, it's a very forward-looking, fun, interesting culture most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Well, you say hi to Debbie for me, and your daughter's called Alana, is he?

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Alana, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yeah, and to you, and thank you for joining me today on our it's been a pleasure talking to you. Even though I've been depressing, even though I've depressed you.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

I'll be all depressed for the rest of the day, but we'll think. Well, don't miss if my luck I always miss, so don't miss the water when you jump. Uh uh, you know what my favorite quote is even the weary's river winds somewhere safe to see. Well done. Nino doubt. Thank you very much for joining me today. Thank you.