Leaving Corporate to Build Relay Recruiting: Lauren Dunkle Dlugosh's Story

Lauren Dunkle Dlugosh was one of the top billing recruiters at her firm in Rochester, regularly placing $550K to $650K in fees annually. She had great colleagues, a strong reputation, and no real reason to leave. And the night before she quit, she slept perfectly.

That is what this conversation is really about. Not the business plan or the LinkedIn announcement. The moment before all of it, when everything felt right even though nothing was certain yet.

What You Will Learn:
1: What a non-solicitation agreement actually means and what it costs you when you walk away from a decade of client relationships
2: Why Lauren named her first year of entrepreneurship grief, and how that honesty made her a better founder and recruiter
3: How the golden handcuffs concept applies beyond recruiting and how to know when the cage is no longer worth it
4: What Lauren's cross-country camper van trip has to do with landing a client after she went independent
5: The one reframe that shifted everything: it was not about what she was running from, it was what she was running toward
6: Why Lauren went from being a doer at her old firm to a creator building her own

TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 — Introduction & The Hook
00:42 — Guest Introduction: Lauren Dunkle Dlugosh
01:10 — Life Before Relay: The Rochester Firm
04:22 — The Slow Burn: When Fine Stops Being Enough
05:11 — AI in Recruiting: What Lauren Wanted to Build
10:20 — Non-Solicitation Agreements Explained
12:50 — Golden Handcuffs: The Cost of Comfort
15:16 — Life With Intention: The Camper Van Trip
17:03 — The Loneliness Nobody Talks About in Year One
21:05 — Grieving a Life You Actually Loved
24:43 — Stopping Waiting for Permission
27:48 — Lightning Round
33:25 — The Last Question: What Would You Tell Yourself on Day One?
34:07 — Outro

About Lauren Dunkle Dlugosh:
Lauren Dunkle Dlugosh is the Founder and CEO of Relay Recruiting, an executive and professional search firm based in Rochester, New York. With nearly a decade of experience recruiting across nonprofit, higher education, manufacturing, energy, and the C-suite, she built her reputation as a top billing recruiter before launching independently. Her work combines deep relationship-based search with a forward-thinking approach to AI and workflow efficiency.

Connect with Lauren Dunkle Dlugosh
Guest LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurendunkle/
Website: https://www.relayrecruiting.com/

FOUNDING SPONSORS:
1: Wise Agent | https://wiseagent.com/jsquared - The all-in-one CRM that helps real estate agents manage contacts, automate follow-up, and grow their business.

2: Subi | https://www.oksubi.com/ - Your AI transaction genie. From contract to close, your work is my command.

3: The CE Shop | https://j2.theceshop.com/ Use the discount code jsquared for an additional 35% off

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Outside the Corporate Box is part of J Squared Podcast Productions — a premium media network built for professionals who want more than entertainment.Read the full episode breakdown: https://jmanai.com/leaving-corporate-to-build-relay-recruiting-lauren-dunkle-dlugoshs-story/

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You said you had to grieve your old life before you could build a new one. And that's not something like most people would admit. I named it grief because I realized I left a great position, great income, great colleagues, a great reputation. So it's not like, oh thank God I got out of there. It was just truly betting on myself and knowing that there was something deeper. He did die, but he was brought back, right? I mean, every year they celebrate his death day. Yeah, there's a grief. We call it a death day where we do something really hard to celebrate life. When that happened back in 2017, it really put into perspective what matters. But why did you tell yourself about the four years? I didn't think I was ready. And everyone else is like you were ready. I didn't think I was ready. And then we figured it out. So the point is you're never ready. And I think it will be. I want to start with something Lauren said in her intake that I have not been able to stop thinking about. She said she slept perfectly the night before she quit. No restlessness, no anxiety, just peace. And that surprises more than anything else about making the leap. That is our guest today. This is outside the corporate box. But before we get into this, a quick thank you to the partners who make this possible. Why is they just to be and to each job? These are the companies that believe in what we're doing here, and we're grateful to have them in our corner. The playbook is changing. The question is: are you changing with it? This is outside the corporate box. Real conversations with the real leaders who broke the mold and built something better. With your host Jay Mann and Jeffrey Scott Stanton. Today we're sitting down with Lauren Duncle Deluga. She spent nearly a decade building a career at someone else's firm and she was exceptional at it. But the question everyone around her kept asking eventually got too loud to ignore. Lauren, welcome to Outside the Corporate Box. Thanks, guys. Excited to be here. Yeah, so we're we're glad you're glad you could make it. Now paint the picture for us. Uh before relay recruiting existed, what was your day-to-day actually, you know, look like? Yeah. Where were you working? What were you doing? So before relay, I worked at a local firm in Rochester and it was great. I had an amazing life, great routine. Uh, worked with some really great people who are now my long-term friends. Hopefully, for a long time after this, we'll be close friends. And to the outside world, it was probably the perfect position. And honestly, it wasn't that bad. I probably could have kept my head down and kept the grind going for much longer than I did, but I was ready for a change. So decided to shake it all up and go off on my own. Yeah, so you were a top billing recruiter, right? And what does that actually mean? Like what does your day-to-day work look like? Because I think we have so many different, you know, professions on here. Yeah. What was the work like? You were you were exactly like recruiting who and for what kind of companies? Yeah, good question. So a typical recruiter is probably billing anywhere. So charging a client or an employer anywhere from 200 to 300,000. And I was regularly billing 550,000 and up to probably about 650,000 or so. So did really well in my firm. And what it looked like from day to day is you typically are selling yourself, the firm, recruiting services. So I work with employers throughout the country. Probably 85% are going to be in Western New York, but outside of that, I've worked as far as Alaska and Colorado and with different industries as well. So a lot of nonprofit, higher ed, manufacturing, energy, everything in between. And I started off in the executive recruiting space. So CEOs, C-suite, everything that's a senior leadership role. And then from there it's kind of grown just because when you place a leader, they usually want you to build out their team. So I've done a lot of work in that capacity. And with the firm that I had left, it was great, but it felt like Groundhog's Day in a sense that I would sell. I would recruit on the position because it's called a full desk. So I'm doing everything in between of reaching out to candidates, getting interviews facilitated, helping with negotiations, anything administrative, and then doing it again, rinse and repeat. Again, really great job, but I am definitely someone who is a visionary, very creative. So I was kind of getting the itch that I needed to do something else. So can I can I actually back a little bit? So what did you do anything before you did the recruiting? Is there any other position you did before that? You just went straight into Yeah, so I actually started my career in fundraising with the American Cancer Society and then moving into the University of Rochester's Medical Center, doing fundraising events, like golf, golf tournaments, galas, things like that, and then moved right into high-end donors. So asking for six-figure plus gifts from uh natural time high net worth individuals in the area. And then I got into recruiting because I was being recruited for a fundraising position down in Texas. And when I decided it wasn't worth relocating and moving to go to Texas to do fundraising, the owner of the firm asked me if I ever thought of recruiting and said I would be a perfect fit. So that's kind of how I made the jump. So a couple of things I want to mention. You said Groundhog's Day. That's one of my favorite movies. But you say Groundhog's Day, and then also I think it's a generational difference where we've had older people on who say, like, keep your head, that was a thing, keep your head down, grind it out for 30 years, get the pension, retire. But I love that you said like I could have, but I'm not, I but I didn't. And and was it something that you realized like I'm not gonna, I can't do this forever anymore? And you know, like was it a slow burn where you finally said this is it, or did you plan it for a while, like walk us through the transition there? Yeah, I think it was if I had to categorize it, probably a slow burn where you start to see a couple signs, you ignore them because again, it's a great job. I'm doing just fine. Everything's fine. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah, I was really great at it. And I think what bothered me the most, and I know there's a couple of other industries like this, is I was full commission. So if I wasn't recruiting or selling, I wasn't making money. And I had so many ideas to improve the business, to train some of my team members to implement different technologies and AI and everything that would make the business more efficient. And while I had full reins to do that, and I did a lot of it, I wasn't getting paid for it. And that bothered me, right? Like I'm doing all of this extra work. Did every just click as like, hey, I'm doing all this stuff and I could just do it for myself? Yeah. So it I had a a very so I'm an open, honest, transparent person. Let's lay everything on the table, work together, move forward. And I had had those conversations about what does my future look like here? How can I make a really great impact on the company and be compensated for it? And it just wasn't part of the owner's vision of what I had, which is completely fine. No hard feelings there. Um, she worked really hard for what she built, which I can completely respect. But I still had that feeling of, well, I still need to do this, I still need to try this. And that's when I'd come home and I would talk to my husband, who's my biggest supporter, and he's like, so then do it. Just just do your own thing. I I don't understand why. And he's been pushing me to do it since COVID, and I just wasn't really ready for it. And so he was the one that's been in my ear this whole time, kind of whispering in. And so I finally allowed myself, probably last year around this time, to think about okay, what would this actually look like? What would be the path? How do I do it? Starting putting to starting to put pen to paper of that plan and execute. And then it just made sense that yeah, I have to do this. Yeah, I mean, you had mentioned, you said everyone when you did it, everyone around you could see it before you could, right? They're like, oh yeah, of course. It totally makes sense. That the Ben included, your husband. Uh, what does that tell you about how we see ourselves versus how others see us? Well, that's really funny because I say I don't want yes men around me. I want people that challenge me, that push back, that make me think differently. That's how I've always hired people is just how do we work together and fill in each other's gaps? So it was really interesting to me when I did start to plant the seed of talking to my friends, talking to my family, of hey, I think I might do this. And everyone was like, Yep, about time. I figured, why haven't you done this right? And so to that point, I think it's just different because we can always see the potential in others, but imposter syndrome's real when it comes to yourself or taking the chance because you're the one that might have something to lose. It's different when you're like, Yeah, friend, go start your own company. But when it actually comes to your dollars, your reputation, it's a little bit different. So I just feel like um, you know, we believe in others, we'll do more for others, and we can see their potential so much quicker. I don't know what that says about why we can't do it ourselves, but it's also worthwhile where when I think about what advice would I give someone else, I just give it to myself and then you gotta do it. A lot of times it's easier to give other people advice because then we don't have to deal with the ramifications of it ourselves. I think that's why a lot of times we don't see, like you said, it was a slow burn. And I think for a lot of people, leaving the leaving the cover box is that slow burn, and then it's usually like one thing that usually hits that's like enough's enough. It's you think it was that one event, but it really was all the little things that led up to that big event. Yeah, you mentioned AI, and of course that's my love language to uh how was AI in the workplace? I love it, I just love it. You're like, dude, what'd you say? AI doesn't mean yeah, I get it. I mean, it's so funny to see everyone's different palette for it, right? I haven't heard so many people up until this week with some pushback to me about AI, and it's the younger generation, which I thought is really interesting. Very true, because usually they're the ones to learn it quicker. Um, but as far as my space, a lot of the recruiting aspects that we do is really administrative heavy. So it's reaching out to candidates, writing them the messages, a lot of administrative tasks of scheduling, uh, following up with action items to them, all of which can be automated relatively quickly. So those were things that I was seeing all over the place that I wanted to implement that wouldn't take away from the human touch. It's still my messages, my follow-up, everything that would go into finding the candidates, and then being able to just work more efficiently was huge for me. And that's also where I could see if I started my own recruiting company, I can do less of that and way more of the work that actually matters along the way. Yeah, and if you know, if they're answering questions with Chad GPT, why can't why can't you figure it out for yourself, right? Yeah. I mean, if you already know the answer. Now, you mentioned a non-solicitation agreement. Um walk us through like what who do people who don't know, like who aren't in industry that that that that actually exists. Yeah, good question. Like what what do you walk away from when you have something like that? So this is not legal advice. Right. No, no, we're we're not giving legal advice, nowhere will we ever play what play uh an attorney on a podcast. Yeah, right. So my understanding is so you have non-competes and non-solicitations. Non-compete is a lot more strict, both are really hard to hold up in court, but it's about protecting the company that you're leaving. And so a non-compete is you're not competing in their industry, you might have to take a break for a year or two doing something else, and then you can come back in. Yeah. I have a non-solicitation, so that means I can still be a recruiter, I can still be in the space, but I cannot solicit clients, candidates that I used to work with at my old firm for about a year. So, in essence, you have to ghost the people that you've built relationships with over however many years you were at that firm. Yes. Think of it this way for the for the real for the real estate agents. Imagine you have a huge CRM, a huge network, a huge database of all your past clients, all your past customers, and someone says, you can't call those people. That that that's the real estate equivalent of it. Like your CRM just could shut up, say for a year. Sorry, you can't go go find new business, go find new people to talk to. Yeah, you got it. And I've had clients that I was working for for years that I didn't say goodbye to. I couldn't. I was lucky in the sense that my boss kept me on for a couple extra days longer than the others. So there were a couple other recruiters that were essentially just walked out that day, had no communication or correspondence with any of those people where I really advocated the smooth transition of let's make the introductions to who's taking over the accounts. Now that didn't work for all of my clients. In fact, most of them didn't, but there were a couple that were active that I was working with where I got the blessing to make that connection. But that being said, it was probably three clients out of a hundred plus that I was working with. So that was probably the hardest part because I pride myself on the relationship piece being really off. Yeah, closing the loop and not not being able to close that with them was really hard. Yeah, that seems so challenging just to walk away. I mean, forget about the income for a second. Like these are relationships, like you said, that you've built over the years and just not not to be able to contact them at all. You call them golden handcuffs. I love that term, by the way. I've heard it before. Yeah, I love that terminology. What does it feel like to know that you're in a golden cage, if you will, and and and how how long do you tell yourself it's still worth it? Yeah. And for those who don't know, because I know a lot of people handcuffs are. Yeah. Um, in the search world. So I I work with hiring and candidates who are in really great positions, they want to make a leap or a change. And golden handcuffs is essentially you have really great benefits or really great pay or whatever it may be that is handcuffing you to that job that you can't explore and make those changes. So to the outside world, to a degree, again, I know all my friends and family were rooting for me to make the change. It was kind of crazy for me to walk away from the setup that I had. But what I thought about was the potential of where this could go. Because at the worst case scenario, I just had to get another recruiting job at another firm and doing what I already was doing, which wasn't that bad. So for me, it was just kind of weighing the pros and the cons and then believing in myself, although that was a roller coaster of can I do this or not? Absolutely. And lots of tears were shed and questions were constantly being asked. But at the end of the day, if it doesn't work out, I just get another job again. Not that big of a deal. Yeah, we hear that often with people like, oh, well, just stayed on for a little while longer because of the benefits or the the extra things. Golden handcuffs. Well, and I also say you have to lay out your values and what's most important to you. And that also might determine whether you have golden handcuffs or if you if you really should just stay. And for me, my values revolve around having complete autonomy over my time. Being remote, I'm a huge traveler, I love adventuring, and not having to ask for PTO was worth more money, in my opinion. So I thought if I have to take a pay cut, but I can do what I want or take a walk at noon because the sun's finally shining in Rochester, that's worth it to me. Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, and and I think uh it's worth mentioning like you're one of my you inspire others, I feel like, with the quality of life that you guys lead. Just give them a just a little taste of what you guys did last summer because they don't they think time off you guys went to you know a theme park or something. Just give them tell them what you did last summer. Well, my husband and I live a very a life with intention. I'll say, and it's not just because we like a vacation. I mean, everyone does, and if you could take one, of course. But my husband almost died back right before we got married. So it he was an ICU. I was told, plan the funeral arrangements. It was we were not making it down the aisle. Well, he did die, but he was brought back, right? I mean, every year they celebrate his death day. Yeah, to a degree. We call it a death day where we do something really hard to celebrate life, and we often do it with friends. And so when that happened back in 2017, it really put into perspective what matters. And at the end of the day, it's each other, it's about experiencing things that you normally don't think you can do. And so we go all out with adventures, vacations, um, experiences in general. So, what J-Man's referring to is last summer we took a camper van and went completely across country, no like no itinerary. We were just going where the wind took us. And fun fact about that, I just signed a new contract with someone who I met when I was out on that trip. So we stayed in touch. He just signed off. I'm meeting with him after this to fill a position for him. Um, you just never know who you're gonna meet. But we've done that. We've traveled across Peru doing five-day treks, TNB, sort of Mont Blanc. We're doing dolomites this summer, and that's what's important, though. Awesome. Okay, I just wanted you to share a little more perspective for them. Quick shout out to one of our founding partners, the CE Shop. Look, continuing education doesn't have to feel like a punishment. The CE Shop provides online real estate education that actually makes sense. Pre-licensing, post-licensing, continuing education, all of it built to fit your schedule so you can keep your career moving forward without putting your business on pause. Check them out at thecehop.com. Link in the show notes and be sure to tell them that J Square is at you. And I mean we always we send out like an interview forum, they call it intake. I don't like the word intake. You you had mentioned that entrepreneurialship, doing this yourself was lonelier than you expected. W what do you mean by that? Yeah, it's so it's funny when I was filling out this questionnaire that you're talking about, how much I had to reflect, right? Because I'm just you guys know, you're just figuring it out as you're going, and it's fine, and you don't really take the time to look back at how far you came. And I was really questioning myself like, why did I feel so lonely? And don't get me wrong, I'm an extrovert. Absolutely. I was with an office filled with all women, there's always something to talk about, but I love to put my head down and be really productive and I'm really involved in the community and groups, so I just didn't know why I was so lonely in the beginning. And I think what it boils down to was it was kind of like I was keeping the best kept secret for a couple months because when I left in September of my firm, I didn't announce to the public until the end of December what I was doing. So not saying goodbye to people, not having people know what I'm doing. I mean, yes, the friends and family, but I was behind the scenes building the website, yeah, going through crazy decision fatigue of how do you want things to look? How do you want to position yourself overanalyzing everything and then by yourself to a degree was just a totally Yeah, because it's almost like you you're going through something exciting. It's like a new chapter, and it's like you want to share it with people, but you really the people you with at your old company for so long, the people you would normally have these conversations with, it's like, oh, I can't I can't and I I I relate to that. I think J-Me can relate to that too, especially where we came from. But it's one of those where it's like when they you're right. I think isolation is a a good is a good word for it because you know the certain conversations you can have or don't want to have with the people, or conversations that you want to have with people, but you can't have it with those people anymore. Yeah. People that won't understand, you know, like, oh, look at this website, isn't it great? They're like, yeah, sure. Like, how did you get over that? How'd you get through that? Yeah, I I mean through it just by being busy. I I mentioned I'm really involved with the community and professional groups. And as of re recently, I've really taken some time to dive into some more like recruiting networks and groups, which has been really fun because I feel like I was very much in a bubble when I was at the firm here. That again, I knew there was something more to recruiting, I just couldn't put my hands on it. So being able to talk shop with different people and have friendly competition has been really exciting and fun. Yeah. Um, but I think, I mean, the first few months were the hardest. And you can I mentioned my husband again, who's my my biggest cheerleader. I mean, I would text him some really great news. I got a new job, and then he'd come home and I'd be in tears. And I'm like, what am I doing with my life? Right. Like it was chaos, and I am a calm, cool person. So that in itself was just wild. But I think you know, it's a couple different things. Finding community, if you need it, find it through the gym, through professional networking groups. Um, I'm on boards, things of that nature. I also think creating challenges for yourself, maybe that you feel like you have more control over. So, with some of the questions you've been asking me, I'm again reflecting. Why did I sign up for this crazy big ultra marathon in less than a month? Like, why, why did I do that? And I think it also comes down to having a plan, having control. I could check it off. I knew what I was doing because in my day to day to a degree, I have no idea what I'm doing. I've never been a business owner. I can recruit with my eyes closed. I don't know how to market, I don't know finance, I don't know how to do sales. So at least it gave me something to work towards. So I would also say that's how I got through it is finding something I could control. Well You said you had to grieve your old life before you could build the new one. And that's not something like most people would admit, right? Most people are like, I left and I did this and I'm awesome and 10x, let's go. You know, and and what is what did that grief look like? Because I think Jeffrey and I went through a similar struggle where it's it's you have this day to day and now you don't. There's a transition period. Yeah, it's it was interesting and it's funny because I feel like the one day then it what it might have really hit me was the first day I went to the gym. And normally I have my bag, I take my shower, I zip across the street and I go to work. Across the street, yeah. And I didn't have to do that. I didn't pack a bag, I didn't have the shower there. I was like, what do I do next? This just seems overwhelming, and everyone expects when you tell them, Oh, you started your own business that it's going to be amazing, exciting, everything's great. And it's at first, it's like, it's fine, it's scary. It's fine, it's fine. I'm fine, everything's fine. Um, so it just kind of depended on the day on how I handled that grief. And again, the first few months were the hardest. And learning something new, I it actually I feel like it's made me even better at my job because I have that much more empathy for candidates when they're starting a new role of the uncertainty, of the questions in your head, of the handcuffs you just broke from, and second guessing that. And for the positions that I've placed so far, I I'm yeah, I can feel that for them. And I'm trying to be that person to be like, hey, it's gonna get better. I'm betting your C, right? Just keep going. Um, but it's hard. Decision fatigue is exhausting, learning new things is hard. Um, but just building proof is is doing it, right? Getting the confidence, doing it, learning it, moving forward. Back to the grief for a second, because a lot of people wouldn't call it grief. They call it excitement, they wouldn't name it, and I truly believe that's what it is, but they wouldn't name it what it is. A lot of you know, entrepreneurs, a lot of founders will call, oh, it was excitement, it's a little scared, but you know, it was really exciting, and it was, you know, my path. Was there a point that you realize that I'm actually going through a grief opposed to the excitement? Or was it was no I grief? I think I realized that later because I was like, why why isn't it? And also you you expect, you only know what you know, right? Like you just assume this entrepreneur journey is going to be amazing and all these opportunities, and you have your control of your schedule, and what are you gonna do with it, right? And you don't realize how overwhelming it is, and again, scary and uncertain. So I I named it grief because I I realized again, I left a great position, great income, great colleagues, a great reputation. So it's not like, oh, thank God I got out of there. It was just truly betting on myself and knowing that there was something deeper. So I had to grieve it in the sense that that's no longer the routine. I left there for a reason. So how, what life do I want to create? And then again, it wasn't what are what did I run from? It was what I'm running to and towards. And that kind of mental shift that I had to remind myself was was really a game changer because now I design my life exactly the way I want it and my schedule and when I want to take meetings or not. But yeah, I don't I don't know. I think to a degree when you just know something for five years and you don't even have to think about it, there's good and bad that comes with it. And when you stop doing it, you have to question everything that you're gonna do from there on out. Yeah, and I think your question, you know, I had said this in one of them it's like the phone calls stop coming in that you would normally get. And it's like one of those weird that it's it's not only grieving their position, it's almost grieving that identity and that life and everything you built for that that period of time. So I I absolutely 100% relate to it. You had said in uh at L point that you stopped waiting for permission and just had to believe in yourself. Like you stopped waiting for people to even question what you were doing, and you just believed in yourself and you just did it. What it's hard for a lot of people to do. You know, a lot of people always bring it for other people, like you know, somebody question what I'm doing just to bring me some sanity to what I'm doing and just do it. What what is it like? And what do you think is about something about you that you're able to just like, hey, I'm just gonna do this and get it done. Oh, good question. I feel like I would want to ask one of my friends or family members who knows me. Um I think part of it is having fun, and it's not that serious, right? Like you just try it, see what happens, everything can be fixed. An old boss of mine used to say, as long as you're trying with good intention, it'll work out the way it's supposed to. And yeah, and and taking again that seriousness out of it is like so freeing that you think everyone's looking at you or that they care what you're doing and they don't. And they might remember that you left your job to start your own company, but like more than likely they probably forgot after they hit like on LinkedIn. So, what's the harm in trying a new video or putting a new post out there? Now I say that, but then I also laugh because I've been trying new things on LinkedIn and you guys know like putting yourself out on a video or a podcast and doing this is very vulnerable. And I used to tell myself, no one's really watching because I couldn't tell you what someone else posted. I forget the moment I scroll past it. But when I see people, they tell me, I just saw your post. Oh, your your message was really helpful. It impacted me. Oh, I downloaded your resume template. So people are noticing, but I feel like in a really good way, and it's helping others too. So I think also that piece of it of help others, don't take yourself too seriously. Any lesson is a lesson learned, not a failure. And you just try and you keep moving. What's the biggest lie that entrepreneurs or founders tell themselves? Or was uh what's the biggest lie people tell themselves about entrepreneurial founding a business? I don't know that it it's it's funny because at this point I've listened to so many podcasts and books, and everyone has I'll ask you the question differently. What lie did you tell yourself about being an entrepreneur before you actually became one and a founder yourself? This probably contradicts itself, but like I didn't think I was ready. And everyone else was like, you are ready, and I didn't think I was ready, and then I just did it, and then you figure it out. So I I maybe the the point is you're never ready and you you think that you will be. I don't know if that answers your question, but I think that's probably a big piece of it. Absolutely does. Someone once told me the two biggest lies are that it's easy and that it's not easy. Like there's two biggest lies of entrepreneurship. It's gonna be easier than you think, and it's not gonna be as easy as you think. I'm like, isn't that a contradiction? Like, think I'm like, you know, I think that is entrepreneurship. We think it's easy, but then it's not. So yeah, I I love your I love your answer. Well, this brings us to our lightning round. We're just gonna ask you some quick questions, just off the top of your head. You don't have to go too too deep. Jeffrey and I will kind of switch back and forth. Um what's the thing that scared you the most about starting your own company that you'll admit now? Well, the easy answer is money, right? Making sure that you have enough money because that's why we're working. But the real answer is is doing the work. I'm very much a visionary. I have a million ideas, I have a notebook full of ideas, but sitting down and actually executing was the scary part. What's one word that would describe you at your old firm and one word that would describe you who you are now? Doer at my old firm, creator. No. Like that. Best purchase you made in in year one of running your own business. Anyone knows me, they know I hate spending money. I literally cannot do that. And I've really kept this company on a shoestring budget. So I haven't done it yet, but I'm going to invest in a coach and I'm really excited about them. What does freedom feel like? So to me, it's feeling the sun on my face or whatever weather Rochester will give me in the best snow, rain. Yeah. In the winter because you're outside in all of it. You're outside in all of it. I will always be outside. I'm a tree hugger. I love hiking and camping, and I do it all the winter near winter near winter near winter mountaineering. There we go. Um, that I can, but I feel like the luckiest person in the world when I can look at the count the the weather app, pick out the best window of the day, and be able to go out there with my dog. That's what freedom is. England this summer for a recruiting conference. What's the one thing that the UK is doing in recruiting that the US has not caught on to yet? I'll have more for you come July. But from what I'm seeing, so all of the podcasters, thought leaders are all out of UK. And I think it's just a difference in the respect for the industry. So if you think about it, a company runs more often than not on the people that they have on their team. You need the best talent in order to be the best. And in the UK, they believe in recruiting. And so there are so many really great firms that are ahead of their time, where oftentimes in the US, you kind of have to fight for why your service is gonna push the needle forward. So um, I feel like with them, they're pre-saturated, so they have to get really competitive and creative to be the best. And so that's where a lot of um these different initiatives are coming from. But I'm going early July, so I'll let you know more after. And just and I think before I ask another question, I think that's I think a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of people in business for themselves need to look outside their own little geographic area and even their own business. So if you can go somewhere and pick up on ideas from you know outside of the area you are out to the United States, where I think that's a hugely smart idea. Um, ultra marathon. I don't run unless someone's chasing me, and J-Man knows that because every time I see J-Man post one of his running in the rain, I laugh at myself. I I I wish I could, I just don't. Why? Yeah. Just I'm gonna ask the question, why? Well, when when J-Man's posting that and he's in the rain and in the snow, I'm usually like right next to him. Sometimes I'm around anything. So it's important about ultra marathon because like I so I'm I'm big into psychology and I understand like you're at the point in ultra marathon that your body is telling your brain it doesn't want to do it anymore as a safety mechanism to keep you alive, even though it's just psychologically. Like, why would you want to put your body and your mind through something? Why? Yeah, well, I you know, two parts. So I this will be my first ultra marathon. The most I've ran is a marathon, so this will be new. Maybe my my response to this will change after I do it. But it was signing up for something that scares me. And I heard an Olympic athlete say once, like, when you when you feel those nerves, you call it excitement and you just run towards it. And so I use that in everyday life, and then including some of these endurance things of just try it. What's the worst that can happen? I get tired, I walk, I quit, no big deal. Um, again, the stress of it, it's it's not the end of the world. But I really love just pushing myself. And I think in tandem with this new business, being able to follow a schedule, knowing that I'm working towards a goal, I know it'll work while I'm questioning everything else as I'm trying to figure things out along the way has been really helpful. But also when I look back on memories of when I'm most proud of myself, it's the things that were hard and scary that I didn't realize I could do that I did, and I'm stronger for it. Yeah, I think a lot of the, and thankfully, I think a lot of the traits between someone who can push themselves in that run or push themselves in anything athletic relates directly to entrepreneurialship because you have to push when you realize this isn't going. It's the same thing as that old. And again, I would never run an ultra marathon, just wouldn't do it. But I understand the psychology behind it, and and I truly think it's the same psychology. It's like I'm gonna push myself till not other people can't tell me I can do this, but until I'm gonna do it. Like that, you know, and I think those two are very, very correlated together. Yeah, the mental toughness piece is is a huge part of it. And I think for the gym that I go to, I credit that for the last two and a half years of doing these reps when you really don't want to, or grinding through this workout that's so hard, but you're stronger after you feel more proud of yourself. It's just like anything else. You don't want to pick up the phone to make a sales call. Well, after it, you're gonna be really proud of yourself. So just getting out of your comfort zone. So every every episode we end it roughly the same way. Um, as question what what if you could go back and tell yourself something on day one of starting this journey, this entrepreneurial journey, starting your own business, being a founder, what would you tell yourself on day one? Knowing what you know now. Yeah, knowing now and and really getting to know myself over the last couple months, I would say just make it exist and perfect it from there. Because in the beginning, especially, I would overanalyze again that decision fatigue question myself, where if you just put it out there and fix it, you're better off with pretty much anything in life. So don't overthink it, just make it exist. Love that answer. Thank you. Thank you, Lauren, and thank you everybody for listening and watching. If that conversation hit you the way it hit us, please share it. Send it to somebody who's in the middle of their own moment right now. Maybe they're grinding away, putting their head down, thinking groundhogs day. Okay. Subscribe if you have not already. Um, Lauren, where do people find you? Do you want to? Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. I pretty much live on there. And it's just LinkedIn.com backslash Lauren Dunkel. Okay, perfect. We'll put it in the show notes in the description. Uh and next Monday, we're sitting down with another great guest who is living outside the corporate box. You don't want to miss that. But before we let you go, I want to say thank you to our founding partners, WiseAgent, Stubi, and the CE shop. They make this show possible and they're building tools that actually help people in the industry. Check them out, check them out. All the links are in the show notes. And thank you, Lauren, for spending your time with us. And thank you to everyone for listening. That's not something we take lightly. Now go make it happen and live your life outside the corporate box. Thank you, Lauren.