Interview with Dr. Nathan Higdon, PhD., part 2

Welcome to (un)leaderly, the podcast that looks at the world through an atypical leadership perspective. In this episode, host Barbara Iverson talks with her friend Nathan Higdon, who is a professor of marketing, among other things. They talk about how they tend to lead, the differences between transactional leaders and relational leaders, as well as the trap of the adage "Fake it til you make it."

Barbara tells stories from her life and looks at the world through an atypical leadership perspective. This podcast is the perfect listen for someone who feels like they don't quite fit to the typical leadership profile. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is part two of an interview I did with my friend Nathan. So if you haven't listened to part one yet, I highly recommend you stop, go back, and do that. I also want to note again that there were some issues with the recording, so I'm a bit loud at times. And please adjust your volume accordingly. My name is Barbara Iverson, and I am your host. And today we are going to jump right back in to my interview part two with my friend Nathan. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

I will go as far as to say I think I'm a pretty good leader. And I think that, well, where I'm I'm I had to build myself up to lean into what I was going to say next. I look for people who fill in the gaps for me. I that's what good leadership is, is not being afraid of surrounding yourself by people who have skills you don't, who are smarter than you in areas that you're I can't know everything. Um I mean, I think I know a little bit about a lot, but when I'm working on a project, I want to find someone who knows a lot a bit about a particular thing, not a little bit. And yeah, I'm not afraid to be surrounded by experts in areas that I'm not the expert on. Like, yeah. And many folks who try attempt to lead and maybe not always successfully. Looking at you, uh leadership here in the United States, you know, don't like people to be smart.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

And I think it's important if you want to be successful.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

That actually takes me back to our conversation that we had last week, where you said that a lot of people don't know how to follow, they don't know how to be followers, and therefore they're not able to lead. And I feel like those two things are very highly connected. Like the recognition of your own limitations to say it's not, uh, it's not unleaderly to take a step back and recognize that someone else has something to offer me or my team or my company at this moment. I don't have to be running every show, every moment of every day.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

It is not unleaderly to put the best people doing what needs to be done at a given time. That's in fact leadership.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yes. Yeah. I think so too. Absolutely. I think the best leaders are actually the people who know their teams and their people well enough to pinpoint those things that they're great at and actually put them in positions where they can use those skills, talent, expertise, experience, whatever. It's poor leadership that holds all the people back to say, no, I'm gonna do this all on my own because isn't that what a leader is? I think I don't know if it's leading from the back, but it's certainly knowing your people and and pushing them forward that when I've had leaders like that, that has been the most incredible feeling. Have you been in situations where you're where you've had good leadership as well?

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Oh gosh, yeah. And it just makes it fun. Everything kind of clicks. Uh yeah. It's because usually there's strategic, like they can see that 30,000 feet of like, okay, Arb should be doing this, Nathan should be doing that, uh, let's put so-and-so there with them, and we'll just make some great soup if we do it this way, right? And because they can just see, like, because usually they're really good at noticing how personalities work, and even if just thrust into a room and not really knowing everyone, they kind of are watching how everyone's engaging, like, all right, they're pinpoint. Usually good leaders can typically spot other leaders or or at least people's leadership abilities, and um yeah, so they can just plug other folks together. That's uh I think it it kind of comes with it.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Yeah, I think so. I think good leaders, people who know themselves well enough to know that they are leaders and have had experience in those roles and aren't always just trying to prove to somebody else that they can and are that, they're much more humble about their own abilities and they're much more interested in making connections, putting people together for everyone's benefit. Like you said, they've got that much higher view to say, okay, these people need to be doing this because they get excited about watching what happens when somebody does something because it's not about them. They're just there to facilitate. I think some of the best leaders are more connecting people from different spheres in their worlds and and trying to make connections and and facilitating that development or that spark or something to make something more exciting happen than people might have gotten to on their own.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Because they often are relationship builders. It's less about being transactional. I mean, at least for me, like transactional, uh transactional leaders. I I tend to not buy into what they're selling. And uh I mean I can deal with a transactional leader, and sometimes things are well, I can't actually I don't know that I can think of any, but I suppose sometimes being transactional leadership is we all do it a little bit, but it's the relationship building leaders that I'm like, oh, because it's working on like a group dynamic that benefits everyone.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

For those who are like, what does transactional mean? It's it's really getting something to give something that you're not in it for the relationship. You're there because somebody can do something for you. And there's always that element of you, you know, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. But what it isn't is like the pay-to-play kind of situation. I would look at it as that those are the differences that, of course, when you have relationships, you're doing things for them, they're reciprocating and doing things for you, but that's not why you have the relationship. It's just this extra thing that's added. It's not that you have to provide something and then you'll get the relationship on the other side. And I think, I think actually we're we're programmed to think that transactional leadership is far more normal than it is or should be. I think our culture tells us that this is just how leadership is. But in the political sense, do you find that it's more or less transactional? My assumption would be more, but I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

So I'm like a big sigh there. Um a lot of it is transactional, and there are people who are navigating almost entirely transactionally. If you want to get stuff done for the long term, it's about relationship building. And the transactional leaders, you know, often leave a lot of bitter people in their wake. So um I navigate like personally, I navigate like all this rural, all these rural uh outreach, uh rural organizing things that I do. It's very relationship building. It's like it starts with just showing up and be like, you know, I'm here, I understand you've been ignored for years and years and years. And uh I'm here to like help you and then start showing up. And it's about building the relationship because so many of the folks, and for very many years, have been their only experience uh has been transactional folks who would swoop in, and you know, that's such an Appalachian thing, too. People swoop in, transact, and then leave, and there's never they're never still there to actually get that something back from them, so it's always a transaction and it's one-sided typically. And um so I've tried to focus in on it, but yeah, to your point to answer your question, yeah, it it's often transactional, but the only way we make it effective and to to kind of affect rule change is to to make it relational. If you're not doing that, you're gonna lose people, you know, they're gonna become disenfranchised, and uh well, they're just not gonna trust you. Because they're gonna see through.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah, people can see through it. This is the thing, I think. That it may work for a short time, but eventually I mean nobody likes feeling that you're in a transactional relationship where someone's just coming back to you because they want something from you and not because they have any interest in you as a person.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah. Oh wow, where am I benefiting? Yeah, there's no benefit for me. There's Nathan coming back again to ask for $20 donation. What have I ever gotten in return for that? Or, you know, that those kind of things, yeah. Sure. And or there's Nathan coming back to ask for our vote again. Where has he been for the last two or four years? Oh yeah. To that end, you know, uh, we're all over I'm all over the place today. Uh, this can be fun for your editing.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Uh I'm just gonna throw it all on.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Throw it all on. It's like it's it's kind of like that, yeah, throw the spaghetti at the wall, see what it takes. Um yeah. It's this is the same kind of thing that happens to uh you know, black and brown voters, to the greater queer community for voting. Hey, y'all, come vote for me. I love I love the brown people, I love the gay people, I love, you know, and it's all this, and you're like, where have you been for four years, buddy? Right. Like, and especially if they're incumbents, you're like, you want our vote again. Where were you with all this like anti fill-in-the-blank for whatever underrepresented, marginalized community? Where were you on fighting for this? It's like you're back here asking for my vote again, like, but you didn't do anything to earn it. And that's not leadership either. And that was part of the stuff we things we had talked about like in that class that I had taught about you know leadership and politics and how it's like non-existent.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

This leads me to the very common phrase that honestly makes me crazy, and that is fake it till you make it. The the idea of just I'm gonna I'm gonna pretend to be this. I mean, it's really kind of the opposite of imposter syndrome. It's weaponizing being an actual imposter to say I don't need to know what I'm doing. I'll just pretend. It's so common in the startup world. And having worked with students who wanted to found startups, I heard that constantly, and I thought, I this is so this is not the way to do things, and I don't really like that you think it is. There was a woman who came and spoke, and she had founded a startup and she was quite successful with it. And her phrase was nail it before you sail it. Finally, we have a different voice here saying essentially the opposite of fake it till you make it. Like, don't fake it. Actually, work at it until you've got something that you can release.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Kudos to that speaker. I get so tired of the fake it till you make it. What's implied, I'm afraid, in the fake it till you make it is something you kind of mentioned, is not actually doing the hard work of really learning it. It's just as opposed to learning how to do it right to get better, fake it till you make it to me is kind of like mess it up and just keep doing the wrong thing until you learn how to close in the walls to the right thing instead of just learning how to do it correctly to begin with. So um it's a process of elimination getting better instead of actually going out and seeking how to be better from the jump. I yes when you make it seems like it's much more arduous anyway. I don't I don't understand it. It sounds cute until you have to deal with people who are faking it while whilst trying to make it. I don't know what they're trying to make, but they're not usually doing a good job of that making.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

No, they're not. And they're making what they're making is they're making life miserable for the people around them who are actually doing the work or cleaning up the mess. Like it's uh it's a very handy thing to say to take less responsibility and have less accountability for what you're doing. Well, I'm just faking it till I make it. But why do you think you're gonna make it? Why do we why are we in this system of like rewarding the people who didn't take the time to learn how to do something properly and instead are pretending or using someone else's money to just mess around thinking that it's gonna succeed? But why, why would it?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Well, I mean, because AI told me so.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

So I'm curious though, you mentioned that you and I don't even know if this if there's much to this, but you mentioned that you teach at a community college and then also at um, I'm guessing a four-year school. So those are the so what are the differences that you find in those students? Not even necessarily from a leading or managing perspective, but when you think about those students, because I have and I'm asking this because I have a certain idea in my mind about the kinds of people that go to community college growing up. I went only to a four-year school. My brother went to a community college and then to a four-year school. But I'm curious from your perspective, the differences and similarities that you see in in those kinds of students.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

The community college is predominantly first generation college students. And and you know, I'm painting with a very big brush here, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Yeah, I'm asking you to, so that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

I'm just making sure I'm like, I'm like, to be fair, this brush is massive. They tend to be a little less sophisticated, um, but not always. I tend to have more students who are non-traditional, who are returning. Uh, they're 25 plus years old and are coming back to work on uh school because they didn't they weren't prepared for it or weren't ready for it, and they need a degree to get a better job now or something. And but writ large, the students are far more focused than at my four-year school because and I've had students say this to me uh in different ways, and like this is my only shot to get out of poverty, so I have to take this seriously, or this is my only, this is my only way to do better. I don't have a safety net. And I really like teaching them. It's really rewarding to teach the the adjunct, those classes, the community college. Uh, I would not be able to do it forever and solely community college because you know you're stopping at sophomore level. And that's something I like as at the four-year school, is getting to see people come in as freshmen with bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, thinking they want to do one thing in the world, and then they start to learn about something that's very different than what they thought they wanted to major in, and get to see them grow and then get to teach them. You know, always tell them when you start, everything is a mile wide and an inch deep. And I said, as you keep going, and then when you get into graduate degrees, you're about an inch wide and a mile deep. So I like to get them when they are thinking more deeply. Um, but the four-year school, interestingly enough, it's the same school I attended for undergrad. So it's a private liberal arts school. Uh-huh. And when I was there, it was mostly upper middle class white kids. And, you know, 20 some years later, uh, approaching 30 years later, even, uh, there are lots of black and brown students, like 40% of the student body is Pell eligible. And when I was there, maybe three people had a Pell grant, you know? And now it's like 40% of the school. So it's changed a bit. Uh lots of student, I think an equal number, I think 40% of the students are student athletes. It's a division three school. Um, for those of you who are like, what does that mean? It means literally anyone, just about anyone, can play any sport if you want, you can walk on. They're getting uh the teams are all a lot better. When I was there, like several of us, my friends, we'd joked about walking onto the football team. None of us played football, but it was just because you could. Just because you could. They've gotten a lot better now. So I think you could technically walk on and try out, but you wouldn't just be a bench warmer. When I was there, like I could have been on every sport. I could have been in every sport, but anyway.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

I went to a big 10 school. You you could not.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Yeah, no, this is very different. Like, while I was at none of the sports were any good when I was a student there. Like, I think we won one football game my entire time there.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah. That's not why people went to that school.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

That is not why they went there. It's a lot different. The students are a lot different, and they're a little bit more similar to the students I'm teaching at community colleges. And this has shifted over my six years of teaching as well, where it's becoming a bit more uh first-generation students and student athletes, and I'm seeing like people who are student athletes and they have a job as well. Like, you know, they're working some part-time gig and somehow managing to do all of these things. It's not as different as it used to be, is I guess is the short answer to your question. And something I really try to do with the students, and you know, and to loop it back into the topics we've talked about is uh I really make a point to provide opportunities with guest speakers to make sure that they're engaged uh in the community, that they learn how to network. And something I tell them all the time is you know, I know many of your professors will say, when you get into the real world, and I say, I will tell them this is the real world, and you need to treat your school like it's a job, and you've got to treat this very seriously. I know you I know you're also 20, 21 years old, and you were wanting to drink or underage drink or have fun and party and do all those things. I'm like, you know, in moderation, that's kind of how adults manage to those are coping mechanisms for adults too. And uh learn how to navigate this. Like, this is your life. And because if you do badly here at school, you'll find it difficult to get a job after this. So treat this like it is real life because it is like the decisions you're making now are going to impact the rest of your life. Students will always panic when they come into the class in the beginning, like the first day when we're going over syllabus, because I'm predominantly group work, and everyone's like, hey, group work. I'm like, welcome to your life. Life is group work, you have to learn to you have to learn to work with people. Yes, I know there are social loafers. That's why we all hate group work because there's somebody back there who's not going to do anything and take all the credit. And that's why you have to step up where you can. You know, I require them to they have anonymous accountability sheets, so people will be forthright, be like, you know, so and so didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Ah, nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

And I'm like, you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

And what do you do with that information then? It like does that go into their grade?

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yeah. I tell them we do group work, but grades are earned individually. And they're like, well, is life like that? And I was like, sometimes. Sometimes you're surrounded by leaders who pay attention. Not always, but sometimes they are paying attention. And I said, and I am that person in this room. I am paying attention to who's putting in what. So you've got to get used to that as well. All the loafers don't always get to loaf their way to the top. There are people paying attention along the way, and they're like, oh. I'm like, not many, not many. You're not gonna find a lot of those.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

But no, but at least I mean, I feel like when you do that, you're actually giving those loafers a gift as well. You're giving the ones who are gonna do the work a gift by not linking their grade to the ones. Who don't do anything, but also in a way, it's a gift to a loafer to hopefully recognize that it's not worth it to just sit in the background and not do anything and not have a voice because you get a lower grade, but you also didn't really learn anything through the process because you weren't involved. And it's it's probably a gift that not many of them will accept or see that way. It was the gre it was because it was group work um at this university I worked at that they needed interpersonal skills because nobody knew how to give or receive feedback. Nobody knew how to understand those development stages that their teams were going to go through. Nobody knew how to name a fixed or a growth mindset. So we had this huge amount of information that we could give to them as tools to be able to work better within their groups, but nobody knew about it because that stuff was never taught.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Or if it was taught, it was maybe one slide on a PowerPoint of 25 slides that they were able to easily ignore.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Yeah. What is what would you consider the best leading advice you can give to your students? Like as you're part of launching them into the world, not the real world because your classroom is the real world, but launching them from that safer space into much less safe space.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

It all comes back to that. We've been lying this whole time. Fake it till you make it, kids.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Oh my gosh. No, I would tell them. You'll never get caught. You'll never get caught. No one will notice. No one.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

And then you'll be a billionaire. You'll be fine. I'm really good at bringing the energy down in the room.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

No. Um, my best advice is find yourself a mentor, someone that wants to work with you and you want to work with them, and who will open their doors to their network, who will share the things they've learned over time, and who will give you real advice, who won't just tell you what you want to hear, but will tell you the quiet parts out loud. Yeah. And uh and to help you just learn how to be a better adult. This actually rolls right into that. I'm the first guy in the business department faculty in like uh over a decade. And so, you know, as I'd mentioned, there's 40% of our student body are student athletes, and teaching management and marketing. We hold 20 20% of the students at the entire univers or at the entire college are business uh or marketing or management majors, and most of those are student athletes.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

And oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

They used to study like kinesiology, now they're studying marketing and business.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, everybody thinks marketing is easy until they get into my class. Like, I heard it's easy. Well, it could be, but not here. Not here, baby. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Um, this is the real world here.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yeah, you're getting someone who's teaching the real worlds, or you're gonna have to do things. Interestingly, I have had a lot of the Mel students who have really tried to bond, or like I've developed this bond with a lot of students, like bond in that, like you know, mentor-ish or professorial. Uh, not real, I wouldn't say I'm a mentor for a lot of them, but but a lot of the guys stopping by to chit-chat. And I this is the weirdest thing saying this as a uh white guy, but representation matters, and a lot of these male students have really resonated with me in ways where these were people who like in the department were like known troublemakers or bad students or whatever. And I've discovered as they've stopped by the office just to have little chit-chats during office hours or whatever, that they didn't find there wasn't anyone around who showed them what they could do as a guy afterward. Like they had women who were there, which is you know, for as much as equality matters, like they also didn't see a trajectory of what they could do as a man afterward. Right. And um representation goes both ways, it goes every way. It's not just that's been the most star shocking, startling thing to me, but was that the big things I could say to students is that, you know, here's what you can do in the world as a guy, and to not also be an awful guy in the process. That's actually how I've resonated with some people's, which I find so funny. Like, it's just like in my classroom, I don't bring my politics in, you know. That I always tell them I'm happy to talk about it, but you have to come to my office. That's our that's the space for that.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

But yeah, I'm pretty loud about all my things. You know, I've got a rainbow, rainbow stuff. I mean, my coffee cup has a rainbow on it, you know. I'm like, and uh, not in so much as like, you know, screaming it down, but it's just a reminder to everyone, it's like, oh, here's a space where well, here's who I am, and here's a space that if you are struggling with any of this, you know, let me know. And I'll find you somebody else to go talk to about it because I don't have time to navigate your issues.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

And you're not their personal counselor either.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yeah, I'm like, you know, there are people who are actually always say, I'm not that kind of doctor, buddy. And um, but you know, having the people come through, and I've had, you know, several the macho dudes or whatever, and they've come by and they're like, you inspire me. And I'm like, oh well, or what I do, and they're like, Well, you've shown me that you can be kind, that it's okay to be a strong, respected, powerful, whatever different words they all use, guy, and also navigate the world with kindness. And they're like, but also like you're it's very clear you don't put up with any BS. And I'm like, absolutely not. Like, you can do all of these things. And so, like, a bunch of these people are wanting someone to show them that it's okay to not be a toxic man. So weird. I didn't, I'm like, oh, I thought I'd just come here to teach. I didn't realize that. I'm like, I just wanted to teach you all miscreants, and then go hide back in my office.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

If there's somebody who comes into your class with also preconceived ideas about what manliness looks like because of this macho idea, then you're also you're offering them a different way and you're also breaking down some of those lines, what they may think about a gay or queer person in their world as well, and what that looks like. And they may be shocked weirdly, but still they may be shocked to learn that you are a man that they can respect and want to be like and and want to spend time with, and not get hung up on the labels that have nothing to do with who you how you how you present yourself in a room, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

That's you know what's interesting about that is like I oftentimes like as like they'll learn more about me or things will come up or someone will peruse social media and uh you know, they'll have those assumptions of like, you know, liberal dude and uh or well I would identify more as progressive, but you know, anyway, liberal, progressive, whatever dude, and uh or gay man, even that. And then they'll be like, Yeah, we'll be talking to them, like, you know, my dad was a mechanic. Like, I grew up, I can rebuild an engine, I can I can take it apart and re- and have done that many times. Uh, you know, I work on my own car, like uh, we have a farm, like I'm out like bush hogging on a tractor, or uh I mean I've never carried, but I have a concealed carry handgun permit. You know, we hunt and uh, you know, shoot guns and all these things, and they're like, but uh, but uh and I'm like, I know, just breaking down all these things that you thought in your head. And yeah, I it's crazy how we can all be whole people. I'm like, you can you can like football and RuPaul's drag race all at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

You can, and you can watch them on two screens at the same moment. Yeah. I think that's honestly something I have talked about extensively. I had um a workshop I did, how not to be an a-hole. And that was one of the things I started off with to say that nobody is all one thing. We we are we can be many things at the same time. Just because you're not 100% 24-7 an a-hole doesn't mean that you're you're not sometimes owning that can can be very freeing. But to recognize that all these labels and stereotypes and the the images that were given that people are can be boiled down to just one or two things is is wild, actually. Because the person hearing it, the person on the receiving end of that, if they would stop to think, would recognize, well, I'm not just one or two things. I contain multitudes.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

You are unique, just like everyone else who contains multitudes. You know, is what I want to tell people, right? You know, it's like Yeah. Leadership isn't uh doesn't have to be coercive. You don't have to be coercive to be taken seriously.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yeah, you don't have to be you don't have to be a jerk to get things done. You can move with kindness and empathy and and also not take any BS. Like those things are not all mutually exclusive, but somehow I think they have gotten framed in it's either one or the other.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Now here's something interesting, Barbara, and I'll throw this out there. Like, this is something like my really close friends, I'll tell them, you know, I'm like, if you hear anyone ever call me nice, you tell them absolutely not. I am not a nice person. Well, I'm not I'm not generally nice, but I'm very kind, and those are yes, incredibly different things.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

They are. I talk about those a lot with people, yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I'm like, because a lot of times my kindness seems unnice. Like I am correcting you on something, which I this is me being kind, but will come, but it will, if you're not listening, it will seem not very nice, but I'm like, I'm correcting this thing that needs fixed or that you need help with. And I mean, it's not always that kind of situation, but yeah, I'm like, I'm incredibly kind, but yeah, nice, oof, that varies. I mean, I can be nice, but I think nice is transactional, kindness is relational.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yes, absolutely. It's it's a kindness to give somebody the feedback that is very uncomfortable and hard to hear, but it's done from a place of you need to know this, and it will make you a better person if you listen. Niceness will just keep everything harmonious and don't rock the boat and don't say the difficult things that nobody wants to hear, for sure. Absolutely. I'm absolutely with you. Not interested in nice, but I definitely want to be kind. I want to extend kindness wherever possible. Yeah. Even when that's you know, telling the truth is kind, but it's not easy to hear in every situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

All right, should we end there? Yeah, I feel like that was a I think we landed the plane, actually.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

I think we did land the plane. Thank you so much for your time. Yay! Okay, that's it. We did land the plane. Big thank you to Nathan Higdon for his time and thoughts and for a great conversation that I really enjoyed, even though we were all over the place, which I guess is sometimes the mark of a great interview. And I learned a few things along the way. Hope your eardrums didn't burst as you were listening. Sorry about that. I hope that you've enjoyed it. I hope that this has sparked something for you, and I hope that you will come back and take a listen for a new episode next week. Have a good one. Big thanks as always to Lilia Keys for our intro and outro music.