Episode 3: Championship Takes and Under 23 Debate

In this week's episode I'm joined by former Offaly player Elaine Dermody and by former Tipperary player Cait Devane, as we discuss last weekends action in the Munster and Leinster chhampionships, and where the teams involved stand now at this satge of the year. We also discuss the All-Ireland under 23 championship and whether it is a good idea in it's current guise. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And you're very welcome to episode three of the Talk and Komogey podcast. And this week I'm joined by two of the great greatest players your county has ever produced. First, we have Tiberiri's one of Tiberiri's all-time greats, two-time All-Star winner in 2018 in 23, one monster title in 2023, a county championship with our club Charity Ross Moore in 2024, the great Kyoto Van. Kite, very welcome to the podcast this week.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Thanks for having me, Joe. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

And I'm also joined by one of Austre's finest comogi players. She was part of the golden generation of Offrey Kamogi, winning a junior All Ireland in 2009, an intermediate in 2010. She won an All-Star Award in 2013. She won 11 senior county championships at a club, John Cullen, and four Leinster junior subtitles as well. Please welcome Luke Pod. Elaine Darmerty. Elaine, you're very welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Ah Joe, thank you. Great to be here. Thanks. How are you all getting on now at the moment? Good. Well, I'm full fully retired, so uh I'm not doing a whole pile now, Joe. It's um it's very much watching from the sidelines now, watching from a distance and being being glad I'm not still out there. It's it's the game is really uh it's really upping every year, isn't it? The level of it. So I'm quite happy now to be on the sideline watching.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

But we just said we're talking before we started recording. You were asked to come back this year by James, but you turned it out so you did.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yeah, I did. Um and you were asking me, did I consider it? And I suppose anytime you get asked um to represent your county, I I definitely did consider it. You know, it's uh a huge honour anytime you're asked to be involved. Um so I did give it some thought. But like Elaine said there now, I suppose the the game has has progressed on, and I'm happy to I suppose give the last couple of years of my career back to my club where it all started. And I, you know, I was always conscious that um I'd like to go out on my own terms and and go back and give the club a couple of good years before I was completely redundant. So um I'm in the process of doing that and I'm I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Yeah. And coming up on this week's show, just we have we look back at the weekend's action in the Munster and Leinster Championships when it got underway. We'll also have a quick look at the under-23 round of the under-23 championship to happen at the weekend, and we'll have a discussion on the under-23 championship discussing the pros and the cons of it. But before we start, I'd just actually like to get your thought. And I don't know if you heard the story about the Kinney minor B team there in the statement the other day. Did you hear what it was? And have there was like the immense disappointment from the minor B Komogie players who have been denied the opportunity to contest the Leinster Championship semi-final due to a fixture clash with two Kamoge post-primary school alarmed finals, which involved a significant number of players on our panel. Unfortunately, in the event of such a clash, no provision was made in the fixture schedule for an alternative date to play the semi-final. And despite a full-length respect for the peace process and a determined effort of the Kilkenny Kamoge Board to find a resolution, our inability to feel on the schedule aid has resulted in the team being removed from the competition. This outcome is deeply upset and has had a significant impact on a group of players who deserved the chance to compete. It was particularly frustrating that circumstances beyond their control have denied them the opportunity. And it was on to like thank the players managing the families and all that, and just recognize that the future scheduling is a complex task, but many competing demands and commitments. However, with proper planning clashes within our own Kamoki code are avoidable, and every effort should be made to ensure that no group of players face this disappointment again. Clear welfare and play fair opportunity must remain central to all decisions. So if I could just get your thought on that momentarily, what do you think of that situation arriving?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, I actually I I did see that briefly there um this morning online. Um, it's it's a massive disappointment for all the players that there is a clash, like, and I suppose it's too common a place, unfortunately, that that still happens, be it you know, the dual code with with the Camogi and the ladies' football, or be it like within Camoge itself that um there's not provisions made for it. Um and huge, you know, when you're trying to promote the game, like kids just want to play um and to be denied over a fixture um clash or you know, schedule an issue is very annoying. And I am very aware, like you mentioned there, that was in the report, these are hard jobs like to schedule all these games, but like surely some provision could have been made to to make sure the game could go ahead, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

But look, just didn't happen now, and look, the players, I suppose it's the biggest loss for them, really, because they're the ones that are missing out now and a chance to play in the provisional semi-final.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah, it's very like it's very disappointing. Unfortunately, these stories kind of crop up a bit frequently on the comogue side. And um, as Court said, I mean, I wouldn't do the fixtures job now for any love nor money, but um you'd have to imagine that there would be some slot found somewhere. It's a very difficult age between school and you've got, I suppose, leaving certain whole lot of things on the horizon as well, and the weather has been so awful. Um, I put you know, there might have been backlogs, but you know, you know, you'd you'd wonder about maybe a Friday night under light somewhere, or you know, is there any possibility of anything, you know, because I suppose that'd be a last resort having to basically throw a team out of a competition, which is very disappointing, especially for juvenile players, you know. Uh yeah, a sad story, really.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Hopefully they can come up with a better situation if the situation like that arises in the future. But now, anyway, we got on to the weekend's action and we start off in Munster, the Munster quarterfinals at the weekend between Cork and Tipperary, Kite your own county. You had a good win over Cork 118 to 2.9 in as a part of the doubleheader with the hurling on Sunday. What did you think of the game yourself?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I was made majorly impressed with um Tipperary now, I must say. Uh they were well worthy of their of their victory. I thought they were by far the better team on the day. I was lucky enough to be in at it and witnessed it firsthand. Um, and they were really, really impressive. You know, they hit the ground running. Um, and as I mentioned, they're they're kind of coming, I say, right at the right time, but they had a good few injuries during the league. You know, Corrine Blair um was struggling with a shoulder injury, Claude Cork coming back from a long-term ACL, Casey Hennessy had a knee issue as well, and all them players now their names are back on the on the programme again. So um competition for places is going to be massive now facing Limerick. Um, I think it is this Sunday down in Quarky Quive.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, the Limerick in Quarky Quive before the Cork Limerick game. But I thought yesterday one of the most impressive facts was their impact from the bench. Like and you had Jean Kelly coming on to score two points, and you had Queen Matter also had a big game coming on at halftime there for Slingan, who picked up a knock, but she played really well when she came on as well as centre back. So all the subs come on and made a impact at that.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, massive impact off the bench, and you need that, like you know, we spoke about the game progressing now, and it's gone so physical. Um uh same as the hurling, really, that like you need five players to come off the bench and be able to contribute positively. Like, and you know, it's not easy losing your centre back at halftime. Celine was going well at six um and unfortunately wasn't able to come out for the second half. But what a player to call on in Quiva Mare, you know, her experience um for Burgess uh Duhara on top of um her experience for Tip, you know, so she slotted in there seamlessly. Um and like you said, Gene Kelly, two fantastic scores. Emer Hefflin came on and got a score or two as well. Um so look, all over the field, really, they had massive impact off the bench, and and it is going to be important going forward, like the panel of players is going to be is going to be huge if if if they are to uh progress in Munster and in the All-Ireland competition.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Like out of their total 118, like 114 came from play, so that's that's another impressive fact. Like so it there's a lot of positives to take from the game, obviously. But a few negatives maybe the wide count, maybe especially in the first half. Like they hit eight wives to Cork's two in the first half. So, you know, that's maybe one disappointment because some of the wives maybe were either wide. And if you look back over the maybe come back to last year, and even some of the league games, it happens a few times to bring where they maybe hit a few wives, like and see at times it can drain their confidence in games, and the other team then can get a foothold in the game and go on. Like it's happened a few that maybe it happened in last year's semi-final against Galway as well, when it was tight and they missed a few chances, and then Galway ended up going on to win it. So something that's day be still there with Tiberi, and it's something that maybe they'll have to work on going forward.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, definitely. And like I was sitting in the stand at half time thinking they were by far the better team in the first half, and they still only went in um was it all square, or did they want to point up or all square? There was absolutely nothing in it. Was it? Yeah, point to two. Um but you know, they'd all the hurling done, and you're kind of saying, you know, I hope they haven't kind of um left it after them in the first half because you would have been happy happier if you're in the car camp good at halftime, because Tip definitely had had the better of the possession, you know. And them wides on another day could prove costly, you know, so it definitely is an area that they're gonna have to tighten up on. But listen to James Hefnon talk um after the game, though. I think I suppose he was putting a positive spin on it and saying, you know, you create chances, and you know, with more um game time and that that uh the conversion rate will increase, you know. So um once they take the learns from it, I suppose you you can spin it into a positive. But when you come up again good sides, you know, Galway, Waterford, Cork, they will punish you if you leave them in the game. And even there yesterday, I don't know, Tip hadn't scored for maybe 10-12 minutes into the second half, and Cork were hanging on, hanging on, and they got Sergeant McCartney had a great goal chance. And if that goal had gone in, the game could have gone anyway, you know. And like I said, I did think Tip were the better team overall. But good teams, they just like Kenny, the hurlers, they just hang in, hang in, hang in, and um, you know, if if you leave them in the fight long enough, they they could punish you in the end.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Yeah, and Elaine, from a cork perspective, do you think they'll be too worried just yeah, about what their year so far? Like they had they had a bit of a poor league campaign, only winning the one game and then losing yesterday. How do you think will they be too worried now at this stage, or will it just be get on right now? Because they have a long way as well before their first round of the championship, but not till June. So how do you think they'll be feeling right now?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yeah, I think I uh I think there'll be slight concerns. I definitely think there will be. I think the um the turnover of players um is quite significant. And when you look at the big hitters that they've lost, you know, from last year, um, between you know the Mackeys and the Looney, you know, quality like that is um is very, very difficult to replace. And I just don't I I agree with Clark. I thought Tipperary were fantastic. Um they they really did to what CORK have been doing to teams for years. They were so athletic, they passed at the right time, they were direct at the right time, they worked at, you know, worked up the field. I thought their forward play, especially in the first half or interplay with one another, was excellent. And you just didn't see that from Cork. Um it was very much it was quite slow buildup, quite methodical. Um, and it it broke down more often than not. And I mean I think I think they scored, I don't know, was it maybe one, one, two, I think is all they got as a return from their from their forward from play, or something like that, um, which would be a big concern. Now, Tipperary are a good team, so I suppose there's definitely they have to factor that in. But I yeah, I I would imagine there's a slight, uh, a slight concern, and just say the gap to the first game against uh Limic, I think it is is uh you know it's significant enough where it's after the phase you're trying to get out of your system, get back on the pitch, get confidence going, get a game into it. Um so I think they would be slightly concerned. Um they have to get a few players back. I think um, you know, they they have I think uh I think Amy uh Amy O'Connor might might have been named on the soap maybe uh for the first time. Yeah, and I mean get her back, you know, changed the the dynamic to such quality players her back. So because um definitely up front, I thought they would they lacked a bit of a bit of punch now yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah, like they only scored like nine points in the game, but five from play in the total whole game. Like I thought they were probably right on Arlack Callahan as well in the game. Like she was the one, the main source of anything really from Clark's perspective yesterday, I thought she was the one that caused most of the problems for the triple area defence.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah, and I mean uh the one or two times that they went direct, I think actually they they probably were working out a little bit better, but they seem to persist, which is uh which is fine if that's what they're trying to do with with you know going through the individual lines of the pitch. But I think once or twice that they went direct, um I think it yielded uh maybe a bit of a bit of panic because no matter how good your back line is, uh, you know, the forward only has to get lucky once on a on a on a on a direct ball going in like that, you know, and and it could cause carnage, whereas when it's lower, it's easier to block it all up, you know, players drop back, space you know, becomes a premium. So I think maybe they might need to maybe look at going a little bit more direct more often. But look at hey, who might just say what they should be doing really, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah, and look, Kite, obviously now, as we already mentioned, Tiberi now have another big game coming up this weekend in the Munster semi-final against Limerick. Obviously, they're going to that game as favourites, but it'd be another tough test run though, because it's they don't have much time to get ready for it, like you know, only a week, like so. How do you think they'll approach that game?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, I think um it's been a very, very professional approach from them so far throughout the league, and and as they prepped for yesterday's match, like I think um they probably didn't look past yesterday. I'm I'm pretty sure of that because they they knew that it was such a big task, like it's it's never easy to be cork, you know. Um, and we haven't had much luck trying to do it uh at senior level the last couple of years. So I think they'll take massive confidence from that, but um Limerick will pose a different challenge, you know. Um, and I suppose it's it's on before uh the Limerick Cork Hurlin match, too. So the crowd might play a bit of an impact on that as well. Um there was a great crowd in for the Camoge match yesterday, and it definitely added to the atmosphere and it as a spectacle, you know. So um if a if a big Limerick crowd gets in early for the Camogey match, it could um it could play its play its role as well. You know, but um look, I I I think their favourites going in against Limerick um and I would be confident. I just like Elaine said, their their athleticism, their use of the ball, um, I suppose their their firepower up front with Queevas Stackelum this year, Adam Timer, McGrath as well. Um, you know, they've they have a lot of threats. Um and Karen Kendi was an absolute powerhouse yesterday in the middle of the field. Like I don't know how many times I counted that she just came out of nowhere and got in a flick or a dispossession. Um, you know, she's she's covering the half backline, the full back line. She's driving forward when needs be, you know. So um I would be confident of them next week, and and I'm sure they'll they'll get good prep in um in this week in in preparation for it. But this is the time of year you you you kind of you thrive for and you live for like the they have all the hard training done, and it's match on match now, so training during the week will be light, um, but I'm sure uh spirits will be high.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

That's okay. And I suppose probably the game of the weekend was on Saturday, down in Ennis between Waterford and Clare. I had finished like Clear 315, Waterford 25 points, at one point, went for water for the rest of the rest of the time. Like, even though they lost the game, Clare will take an awful lot from that game, like added to their division one B-league title the week before. So like they seem to be going well this year, and there could be dark horses like in the All Ireland Championship if they keep going the way they are. Like they really are performing really well.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yeah, I mean, I suppose for for so long now it's kind of been, you know, maybe three or four teams um competing at the top. You would you'd always have to, you know, Tibrari, Kilkenny, Cork, Galway, you'll always have those four water have broken into the uh I suppose into the top top group now in the last couple of years. And I think Care could be the the next team to do that. Whether one drops out of that or not, I don't know. Um I suppose for Care the whole thing is you know have got the strength in depth as well. And and by the looks that they they they kind of do and push water that thought, I mean, the ghost extra time and scoring like that. I mean, they scored 315, great score. You know, obviously there was a goal threat there as well, getting three goals. So yeah, I think I think they won't be they won't be too disappointed. Um, I suppose that they can refocus now, and you'd imagine that they would be very strong contenders in the group group stages of the All-Inland Championship anyway.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah, and like they had, I think that's seven or eight different scores as well. Like Lord and Max Mara scored eight points, like four for freeze and four from play, so she's a good game. And I thought actually Adley Walsh had a great game centre back on Bet Carton. She kept it quite like for most of the game. Like Bet only got one point, and that was in at the time, so she really did have a good game on her. I thought she'd a great game.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Well, any day you hold Bet Carton to one point is uh is definitely a day to put it to circle it on the calendar anyway. Yeah. Um that that that's very, very promising. Obviously, they were well up for the game as well, and they knew they had a homework done. I think the Rocket scored, I think, 10 points, maybe seven from freeze and stuff like that. So um, you know, again, out of 25 points, you know, you're going to give away a certain amount of freeze anyway. But um No, I I think Claire Claire probably we look, Waterford will be happy that they got by and you know get to maybe get to a Monster Final and again keep building, keep building, keep the positives going. But um, I don't think Claire will be will be hanging their heads too low after after that performance.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

Um Waterford, as I said, they got the job done in the end, and that's what that's the main thing at this stage, I suppose. So they'll be happy enough with that. Like the load will probably have a little bit of work to be done going forward, but now they're going to a semi-final against Kerry, who were in the Munster Championship, senior championship for the first time. So look, they'll probably be fancy to win that one as well. But I get into a Munster final, like what would it mean for Waterford to get win this a Munster Championship? Because you know, obviously they lost the league final, and so it'd be a big achievement for them if they could get the win this Monster Championship and help to be a great plus for them going forward.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, no, I think uh I think there was a massive motivation there this year. You could sense by them that they went hard for the league, you know. Um they set out their stall early, um, and they were the informed team, I suppose, going in even to the to the league final, and and um they ran Galway very close. I'm sure they were very disappointed. But um look, I think they're hungry for silverware, whether it's League, Munster, and obviously all Ireland, but um I think it's that that is is the missing um the missing element for them at the minute. I think they'd really kick on if they if they got some silverware. Um you saw, I suppose, um two years ago when Tip had the league win over Galway. That did give a massive boost, and it still is giving a boost to the county, you know, that that belief that we can win um on the most important day in a final, and I think that element is just missing from Waterford at the minute. Um but they'll take good confidence now from Claire, um, a good win, and like you said, they'll go uh favourites in against Kerry. Um, but a Munster title is definitely within their reach and definitely in their sights.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

I suppose for a team like Waterford, you know, to want to make the breakthrough. Like when they got to the other final a few years ago, they bet Tiberi in semi-final before losing to Cork in the final. But if they could beat, like say a Cork or a Gaway like in a big game, I think that'd be a massive shot in the arm for them to win a game against one of the top two teams in the country, like you know, and if they could do that, it'd be helpful. Like obviously, now with Cork on won't get a chance to do that now. But that's it, like if there's one beating goal in the league final, you know, that would have been I think would have been a really massive boost for them, you know, to show that they could be one of the top two.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah, definitely. And and I do think there is um, maybe I'm wrong in saying this now, but when when I suppose you're chasing down um uh a top team, we'll we'll say it uh a traditionally the last couple of years, a top team, a Galway or um or a cork, you tend to play a little bit defensive. It's nearly the fear of losing as opposed to the will to win, you know. Um and you might set up a little bit more defensive to contain a Galloway or a Cork as opposed to actually playing to your own strengths and and going out and playing more of an attacking game. And I think they definitely did fall a little bit to that, definitely in the Galway game, you know. Um the playing a little bit defensive left two inside, two v three, you know, as an inside forward. Um it's a bit of a nightmare. Um when a ball goes in, if it doesn't if you don't get it to your hands and if it sprays at all, you've two girls kind of you know surrounding you. Um and you know, I I just feel that if they would if they would get over the line against uh a Galway or uh or a Cork, that maybe they might throw the shackles off a little bit um and play play a little bit more to their strengths if that kind of if that kind of makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

It's actually the game on Sunday, Saturday was very impressive to shoot. And like Clear got 3-11 from play while Waterford scored 16 points from play. So obviously both teams well capable of putting the ball to all the battle when they're given a chance. So as you said, just on clear here actually in the All-Ireland, like they have they're in the group, group two, like with six teams, and only two teams come out with. So that's look probably a bit tougher for them. Like they'll have to be from the goal while you look at Waterford in the group with just the four teams, top four, like they can probably afford you can you can afford to lose nearly all your you can lose all your games and you still go through anyway, but like so they probably don't have to be as ready straight away for the championship as say Claire would have to be going into that championship because Claire will have to be on it uh from moment one, like yeah, and that that'll be hard for them, I suppose, because you know it is about timing your run as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Um, and it is a long year, you know. You're talking about teams going hard in the league, like we just mentioned Waterford did and Tip and Waterford now with their sights on a Monster title, as well as Limerick and and Kerry, you know, like and and to think then that you want to be flying it. Maybe you have to get out of your group in the All-Ireland, win your games if you're in group two, and prime then for All-Ireland quarter, all Ireland semi, like it's a long year to be at the peak. Um it's very hard to do. Like, it definitely does favour the group of four. I think, you know, you can really experiment with a few players, um, definitely blood a few younger players, see early at the pitch of it. You're getting good competitive matches, but yet the end result isn't the end all and be all, because you still know that you're going to qualify for the knockout stages, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Now, Elaine, um also on Saturday we had the Leinster Championship quad final between Austria and Dublin. Dublin can choose three fifteen to two nine victors. Like obviously as the former lucky player, I'd just like to get your opinion on the game itself.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Yeah, um I suppose disappointing results definitely first and foremost um for Offaly because you know um we we've come up from intermediate and I suppose you'd be hoping that you might be a little bit maybe more competitive. But really, I think the league obviously was was was tough, tough on Offaly as well. Um but I think the difference in physicality and power in running um you know was was evident for all to see really in Tullamore. Um and I mean Offley started pretty well, you know, um got some good early scores, and then a massive shower of rain came, which obviously was the same for both teams, but it just seemed to nearly kind of bring Dublin into the game for some reason, um more so than that than Offley. And look at the reality is that I mean that you know, in in the final score, 2-9 to 3.15, we got two goals in the last uh six minutes. Um Maria Tihan got two fantastic frees. Um so it did kind of maybe take the hard edge off the um off the scoreline. But um I suppose, and I know we're going to talk about it later on in the in the under 23 discussion, but I think you know the intermediate championship uh years ago, years of fodd, foddo, when I played in the intermediate championship, we were coming up against the the teams, the second teams from the tips, the corks, the Kilkennies, and all that. And I think the fact that they've gone out of the intermediate championship for me means that the gap now between intermediate and senior, I think, is is really, really big. Um and I think we kind of we kind of saw that um on uh on Saturday. Um but listen, we're there, we know there's there's a couple of players came back. Sarah Harding hadn't been seen joined the league, she's she's back to a good forward, but we just didn't make we didn't make good enough use of her, we didn't play the kind of the quick balling tour, missed a couple of frees that we would normally get. Um look, there was we had a player sent off for two yellows, you know, um midway through the second half. So a couple of mitigating things as well. But um ultimately I suppose the gap was kind of there, the gap in standard was there to kind of see, and we've we've we've a long way to go. But hey, listen, we're in senior, that's where we want to be, you know. So um just have to onwards and upwards now at this stage of the championship will be coming up around the corner again. Same as Claire. I mean, you know, every team in that group is just straight on it from from first minute of the first match, um, to try and see how well they can do.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah, and look, as you said, look, as awfully, yeah, playing senior, they're going to get better playing senior at higher level. So like obviously they kept their division one B status, which was a big plus for them. But like they were on Saturday, like they only scored two points from play, like in the whole game, which is obviously a massive disappointment. And you know, I think they started the game well and they took the later on, but if once Dublin kind of got into the game, and Dublin running game really did cause massive problems for them, they just weren't seen to be able to handle it at all.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah, yeah, it was. And I mean, Dublin had some um some unreal pace. Great Grace O'Shea scored a goal in the first half, and you know, you think you were looking at an Olympic sprinter, she just took off, you know. Um, and but you could see even from a physical perspective that you know think things were were were definitely different. Yeah, the I mean, when you contrast it with the Tipperary court game, I know that's kind of you know a different level, but the way Tipperary moved the ball around our forward line and the interplay, the way they created you know space for one another, options all the time, we didn't really have that. We were kind of still playing a bit as individuals and then maybe giving the pass at the wrong time when when the opportunity had kind of gone, because you only get a split second at this level to give the pass. And if if if it's given any later in that, the opportunity is is um is gone. But listen, for this group of players, this is their first exposure to this to this real level for a lot of them. So, you know, they're just gonna have to try and get up to the standard as as quickly as possible, hopefully, you know, um stay senior and and keep trying to build because every year when you're exposed to that level of competition, that's the only way you're gonna learn. Um, and I know they will they will learn a lot from from last Saturday as well. Look at it's Leinster Championship, it's it's done. We're out of the competition focus now, switches straight away, can't dwell on too much either.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

And like Kike on Dublin there now, obviously have a Leinster semi-final to come against Carlow. That's coming up, I think, this weekend. But what do you think of where Dublin are at the moment? Like, obviously, look, they got to an all-areland semi-final two years ago. Last last year obviously didn't go that well for them, but can they get back to where to level they were maybe two years ago this year?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Or yeah, like I I suppose we we were speaking about Claire being a surprise packet there um a while ago and how good Claire are going. And to be honest, a small thing in that league final and Dublin could have been victorious as well. You know, there was a couple of goals at at certain times during the game that went again them, and they kind of were again the run of play. Um so like you know, I I don't think they're they're that far off it when you know when we're when we're talking about Claire running Waterford so close the weekend and Dublin then the weekend before um running Clare so close in a very, very competitive and very physical game. Like I think Dublin will always bring a level of physicality. Um and anytime you've um you anytime you have uh brilliant forwards like Ashling and um Emma O'Burn in the backs as well, like they have names, I suppose, that have great experience as well, you know. And I think their centre back and captain was missing on that day, was she? She was a massive loss, like your anchor from your centre back position going into a league final, you know. Um so I do think I do think Dublin are are still there thereabouts, and uh, I don't think we should be writing them off this year.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

On the upcoming weekends, Fitzhers like the two Lentford semi-finals run Friday night in Chadwick's Wexford Park, Kilkenny take on Wexford at 7.30, and on Saturday, Dublin and Carl are meeting Parnell Park at 3.30. Just get your quick thoughts, Tovey, on both those games and maybe get a prediction on who might win.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Kilkenny Wexford. I think Kilkenny are they going for 10 in a row or something. Something like this. Um so I suppose you you'd probably say, can you make it eleven? I suppose probably the COVID during maybe might have taken place, but I think they're going for something like ten in a row. So hard to look past them. Um so look at um I know I know it was just just change, change on on their team as well, but I think I think Kilkenny possibly will will have enough. Although going down to Wexford Park is never at any at any grade, at any level in any sport, it's never easy either. So um, you know, Wexford will be waiting for them, I suppose, and seeing this as a really good opportunity to build momentum and build a bit of confidence ahead of the championship as well. And look at they can have a right go at it. That's the thing. Sometimes it's it's easier being the underdog. You can have a right go at it, you can be motivated and all the rest. But kickenny are kickenny, and they usually find a way to get this job done anyway.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

And Dublin then Carlo on Saturday. Look, I suppose Dublin will start as heavy favourite for that one, really, because like Carlo intermediate level and Dublin just under a good win there against Office last week again. So you expect them nearly to come through that one fairly alright and get into a length of final. Like winning a Lencer Championship, that'd be massive for Dublin, so it would, if you can get it done, like you know, and I suppose this is probably the best chance they'll have this year, like with Kilkenny, maybe not at the level they were maybe in recent years to come back. So if they're going to do it, maybe this year could be the year for them to do it.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Yeah, I suppose it's a parallel with Monster, really, isn't there? Like it'd be great for Dublin and more than Watford if they could just get that bit of silverware behind their name and and and move on from there. Absolutely, Kilkenny, I suppose, have come back into the pack a little bit. Um, again, it's it's probably belief. I think Dublin will beat Carlo. I think um the only thing that I think could potentially catch Dublin is you know if there's any kind of complacency or anything like that. Because again, Carlo, it's always the end of playing a team with nothing kind of to lose, and there's no expectations on, you know, they can have a right go at it. But when you consider that, you know, again, operating at intermediate level versus senior, like the it's I see it obviously with our own girls, the difference is is really, really stark. So you'd imagine Dublin would um would come through and then it would set up a very interesting probably Leinster final and Dublin again, then the tables turn a little bit, they'll be underdogs, and they can have a right go at at the Kenny. And as you say, I mean a silverware for Dublin, no more than for Waterford in a provincial, would be would be huge for them and would give them that bit of belief and you know possibly set down a marker for championship as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Yeah, so it'd be interesting to see how the games go. As I said, they're on it Friday night and I think Saturday as well. So looking forward, I think they're both at Clubber as well. So it should be good games anyway. And anyway, now just gone to the under-23 championship. Just last at Sunday there, the results from Sunday in the under 23A, Waterford and Dublin, Dublin finished one 412 to 8 points, Tlikini bet Cork 3.13 to 2.9, and Tipperary had a one point victory over Gaway 2.14 to 2.13, which at the four rounds leaves the table. The Cork top with four games played nine points, Tipperary second with eight points, Clikini fourth with seven points, Dublin or Tlikini third, sorry, Dublin and fourth on four points, but what he played three games, High Galway played three games as well on three points on fifth, and Bob of the table and Waterford with four defeats in the four games on zero points. And Cork, Tipperary, and Klikinney are all guaranteed a semi-final place. And Dublin and Galway played the weekend with uh a big which is a big game really in the race for the final semi-final place. I think if Dublin win that, they'd be guaranteed a semi-final place. So that's promises to be a good game at the weekend. I think Galway have a home venue though for it. So but just like if I can get your thoughts on the under-23 championship like as a whole, what how you think about it, and maybe some of the good and the bad of it, maybe. Is that what you caught?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah, um I suppose you know Elaine alluded to it there earlier that um unfortunately when you don't have your Cork and Kenny Galway tip in the intermediate competition, when an intermediate team does come up senior, that the gap does seem to be bigger. I think that is a negative of it. Um I don't know, is it helping the junior and intermediate teams not having the second teams um of um counties with senior uh teams in them ranks? Um I also feel like it's a bit of a negative that it's age capped. So, you know, if if you are 24 and you're on the fringes, maybe you're there thereabouts of making your um first team in your county, but yet you're one year out or six months out of being on the under-23 panel, like you know, there's nothing there for you to develop with to push on. Um, and I think that is a pity, you know, and I think it's a missed opportunity. Um, so they'd just be kind of some of my negatives towards it. Um, is it a competitive competition 100%? Are there some really fantastic, um skillful Kamogi players on show? Is it developing that age group 110% like it it is? But I do think uh for me anyway, the the cons outweigh the pros in terms of having it age capped primarily.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yeah, and look, like one of the reasons I think was because to make the intermediate junior though more competitive, like for the teams that really maybe have only one team, like because like obviously Cork contemporary had won the intermediate junior the year before that, and maybe we were winning it easy enough. But like at the same time, as this was actually said to me the other day, I think it was Elaine Edward actually telling it to me, look, if teams like that can't beat the likes of Cork Gower's second team, you know, how they're probably not going to have much hope, like you know, of beating the top team then when they go up to the top level, then like so from that point of view, it's actually a good point, actually, when you think about it.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah, I mean I agree completely with both of course points, to be honest with you. Um I I I'm not quite certain um of the the age, you know, thing, the age cap on it. Um I I suppose, I yeah, I probably I'm blinkered a little bit in terms of you know being been phromophily and and wanting those second teams in the intermediate championship because the exposure that you have then to the girls that are training at a really, really top level. Um, you know, the you're probably coming up against player number 21, 22, 23, 24 in Tipperary or in Galway or whatever. And you know, I think that only that only helps you know improve the overall standard. And I I understand obviously we don't want to see second teams winning all Ireland championships, and that's I suppose that's that's a risk as well. But um I think from a development perspective, I don't really understand what the major benefit is of having an under 23 championship um with an age limit on it, rather than just having let them let the let those counties have second teams like they they always they always would have had. I think as well, I mean, I think reading through through the information on it, it was said that you know it's to bridge the gap between minor and senior. But for me, you know, in maybe particularly in the strong counties, maybe. But I mean, for me, if you're right, you turn 19, you're only going to be exposed to a girl who's a maximum age of 23. And we all know that, you know, she's only a couple years old already. We all know, I suppose, that you would need to be going out maybe uh when you get to that level onto the grisly 29, 30, 35-year-olds, learning your trade, learning the, you know, learning the ropes. And I think also coming onto a team that if if you were going on as a 19-year-old onto an intermediate team with no age restriction, you're maybe playing with a girl who's maybe in her late 20s or 30s, has a bit of experience, can talk you through it, can, you know, you know, get you to learn the position, learn about team play, and maybe even, you know, um have a better balance uh on a team. Whereas going on to an under 23 team, yeah, you have girls with a certain amount of experience, but are they really ready to be huge leaders at that stage? Um probably, probably not. So um I think the age, the age thing is a straight, it's a kind of a strange restriction to kind of put in place. Especially as well, I mean, in this day and age, there's so many people traveling to Australia and America and Dubai and this, that, and the other. You know, they come home and they don't make the top 30 in Cork, there's their intercount career is basically over, you know, there's nothing for them. So um just a little bit. I don't know. I I think it's it's coming from a good place, I think what they're trying to do, but I think maybe overall for me it's it's the you know, the uh the second team would be better without any age restriction.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Yeah, and uh one of the major points a lot of people have against the under 23, and Kai this is coming I heard it a few times back at Tiberi again, is like Tiberi won the junior there the last year of it, and there was a few players in that team like that over the edge of 23, and they're missing out now on any type of intercounty pomoge because they're not they're not quite up to the level of maybe playing senior that, but they would have been still they would have had the chance playing intermediate then the year after, but they're missing out on all that now as well. So like that's a big I know you already kind of mentioned it, but that's like it's kind of harsh on them players as well, like foot is when you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah, definitely. And and that's that's what I mean, like you know, them them girls that are just that little bit, maybe a year or two of a bit of experience, like Elaine said, of um might even be someone just taking you under your wing at an age group and bringing you on and and teaching you that little bit, that coaching element, I suppose, that um that happens at training and in the dressing room with your peers and that, just missing that little element, I suppose, to make the ultimate step up, and now their opportunity for that, for that development is gone because of their age, you know. And um, I just think it's a missed opportunity, you know. Um there definitely is a big cohort of of players in Tipperary that are missing out on uh representing their county at um at adult level, you know, um junior intermediate because of the age limit and um the yeah the age grade on it, and it it it is just a big pity, you know. And like Elaine said, I think the onus is on, I I do get that, you know, for for the counties whose first team is junior intermediate, um you know, it levels the playing field for them, but are we really developing them then? You know, like the onus is on them to learn from the benchmark is there. If if uh Galway, a Kilkenny, a tip, a Cork, second team are the benchmark, you need to get to that, you know, and and that's the get out of your comfort zone, and that's to drive the standards, and that's within the group and within the county board and within everything, you know, and not maybe just to settle for a level of this is junior or this is intermediate. And you know, if there is a team that is beating you, you need to find out why they are and and and learn from it, you know, and and try and progress your own setup to meet meet the standard, not take the standard away, you know.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Uh-huh. And look, the only time to championship, look, it's only early days for it. So maybe do you think if we change to a different age group or something, would that work a bit better, or maybe went a bit younger, maybe or something, a bit a year or two older, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Um I don't I I I just don't like an age restriction on it, I suppose. Kind of, I just kind of feel once kind of you've gone out of minor. I mean, look, you could look at having an under-20 championship or something, but again, you know, you're only really extending kind of the underage season. And I suppose one element of Camogey, I suppose, is that players do tend to come on to adult teams that bit younger than, say, their their male counterparts in general. And I mean, you know, I mean, cost probably the same. She was probably playing for Tipperary when she was maybe 15 or something like that, or whatever was allowed at the time, which obviously isn't allowed now. But um, you know, I I don't think I think when you get to you're you're you're going on 19, I think, you know, you're probably ready to go up to the adult level, and that's it, and face whatever you face and and not kind of, you know, be kind of you know another step before you do. I don't think it's I don't think it's really necessary, to be honest. And putting an age restriction kind of I don't think really, really helps. Now look at maybe other people in other counties would say, you know, that it's it's a good bridging stone and it keeps girls interested and it gives them an inter-county chance for a bit longer. But I mean, they would have that anyway, without the age restriction, you know, if they were if they were good enough. And I mean, counties can apply for the likes of the big counties, they can apply their own criteria to how they want that second team to behave. They I mean they could have an internal rule themselves if they wanted of under 25s only on their second team or something like that. But I think when it's enforced on you, I think it's just just makes it a little bit tricky, that's all.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

I'm not completely against the idea now, I'll have to admit. Like I think it is good for maybe some younger players to get a bit of the county action. You know, maybe they're not quite up to the level of senior just yet, like but and playing at that level just for maybe a year or two, will just help them develop, bring them along that development pathway a little bit more, and then they might be more ready for senior into county level. So I think for that perspective, for certain players, anyway, it is good, I think, from that point of view, like because there will be some players now obviously, look, the very best players underage, like minor and all that, like we see there with Tipperary, in particular this year, with Krieva Stake and coming straight up in senior battle. Like the very best players are probably just going to go straight into the senior team. But there'll be those players that maybe just not quite ready just yet. And this is I think play under 23 is actually is a good pathway for them. Just look, that's my opinion now, but that's just I think it's like there's obviously as we've already discussed, like negative as well. But I think that's just that is one good, one good idea for of it, like for me anyway.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yeah, no, definitely. I I do think it, you know, it is definitely um developing players, and the competition is very competitive, you know, and it is of a very high standard. Um it's just it's just the age cap for me that it just seems a little bit irrelevant, I suppose, is is the point. You know, and another argument then is you know, do you run it as a separate competition or do you allow um it to be in with the junior and intermediate? That's a separate one. The big one for me is that it's age capped, to be honest. Um, you know, that it just seems like you could have a second team and run a separate competition for them if if if you don't want um seniors, second teams winning junior and intermediate, but don't cap it. You know, don't don't put an age limit on it and and limit a 24, 25, 26-year-old who maybe was traveling for a year or two, like Elaine mentioned, you know, that's so um common now and and coming back in and might need a year to kind of integrate back into um a setup before making a step up maybe to a senior panel or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Actually, there's the point you made there, you could have the teams, all the teams to have a second team, like there's six in the A, there's I think there's five in the B, and there's four at C level. Maybe have all them teams just have their own championship, you know, uh where everyone in the county that may be not good enough, not having age gap on it. That might actually be a bad idea. And just they all have their own championship then, like that, separate from the intermediate junior, and my hell, because they'll keep more players then playing the game then as well, like maybe not getting fed up with the game then as well. You know, if they know that they're not going to get much chance to play in the county, like yeah, that's uh that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Um, absolutely. You know, I I agree completely. The age restriction is just it's just a bit of a weird one. Um again, look, I I I would be still in favour of second teams being in the intermediate and and maybe junior ranks as well. I think it's you know, I suppose the likes of Leash, Carlo, awfully up to last year, down Derry. Let's try and you know bring them closer. Um, so because I think what's going to happen is you're going to see teams coming up from intermediate every year and then we're going straight back down, you know, um, because the gap is just so big. And, you know, I've kind of seen it now firsthand. And, you know, um it's been it has been talked about locally here that the gap is is quite big now compared to maybe years ago when you were coming and being exposed to those second teams. Um Um because they're training at such a high level, they're giving you different they're giving you different conundrum in terms of tactics, in terms of gay, you know, styles of play and all that, than maybe you know the the first teams of the weaker counties, you know. So um I think double double edged for me on it, but I I completely agree with Call. I think the age thing is uh it's a bit unnecessary, really.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Well looking at it another way, if you were going to have an age limit on it, maybe you could have the counties with a second team still in the junior intermediate, but just have them with maybe unable to play, maybe not under 23, because that's a bit young, but maybe up to under 25, maybe under 26 or something, and let them then be in the junior intermediate because it might make the junior intermediate a bit more competitive with them in it as well, like you know, and it'll give players older just a few older players a bit more chance to play and then getting a chance to press them with the second team for that. Would the second teams have a un be limited to a sec underage, like maybe under 25, under 26 or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, um, I I see where you're coming at, I suppose, to leaven the playing field a little bit uh in the junior and intermediate. But again, like Elaine, I just think the age thing for me is the is the thing. Um and it might, I suppose, like you said, encourage continued participation, but also maybe I suppose curtail them second teams just a little bit. But um yeah, but look, as I said, uh my main problem with it is the age, to be honest. I I think that's the thing that needs to change, more so than the okay, if you're not putting them into the junior intermediate, fine, have their own competition, but but just don't put an age limit on it.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

I mean, I feel from again from this conversation, anyway, the age limit is where you seem to have the biggest problem with it anyway. You agree with some of it, but as you said, the age limit seems to be the biggest problem you have with it anyway. But we're not going to solve all the problems here tonight with anyway. So anyway, just looking ahead now, anyway, I suppose to this again, again, just get final predictions for you supposed to some of the games coming up. Just and just to the this Sunday, actually at two o'clock in Nolan Park, the minor final actually between Gow and Kilkinny. That's in Northern Park has said, go on Kilkinney. Look, go Kilkinny are going for two in a row now at minor level, and they're coming up against a very good Galway side. Actually, I've seen them a couple of times this year, and they've been very impressive. They have a very strong set of forwards, and they've a very strong running game actually. And it should be actually a good game between two teams. So it'd be worth getting to if you get anyone that's listening, wants to get a chance to set Northern Park at two o'clock. And before that, in Northern Park as well, we have the A-Shield final between Waterford and Mike's road. That's on Sunday as well. That's at 12 o'clock in Northern Park as well. And on Saturday, the B finals in three o'clock and Kingspan, Brefney Park between our man meet. And before that, at one o'clock, we have the C final between Lau and Cavan. But just on the Mine Ray final, like Galway and Kinney, just even get quick thoughts. Like I said, Kilkenny going for two in a row. Like just get you get even if you just get quick thought on that game.

SPEAKER_00 46:55

Um, yeah, I suppose I I'm teaching in the presentation in Turles there, and unfortunately, we've come up against uh very strong Prez Kilkenny and Loreto Kilkenny teams there in um in school as Camogey the last couple of years. Um they've been very successful. And look, they traditionally they would be um strong teams, but um the Loreto team, which I'm sure is the backbone of that Kilkenny minor team now, not 100% sure exactly of the personnel, but um if that is anything to go by, uh Kilkenny definitely um will will be hard bet on um on the weekend to come. They're they're a phenomenal bunch. They've dominated the the school's A all-Ireland grade there for the last couple of years, you know. So um they bet the Ursuline um this year in the final, so um they'll be hard bet. Now I haven't as much knowledge on on the Galway school setup, but um I think At and Roy were quite strong as well this year. Um they progressed into the latter stages of the senior camoe as well, so I'm sure it'll be a a rip-roar and final.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

And just if I can get your prediction as well for the rest of the game, just quick prediction now. Klikini wex for first, get both your predictions for that game. Final prediction.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

I'm gonna go Kikini.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

I'm gonna go Kinkenny, yeah. Kinkenny as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

And I'm gonna go kickin' as well for that one. And for Dublin, Carlo now, next. Dublin.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Dublin, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

And Dublin again, three cross the board, yeah. We're gonna change them all. Yeah, that's probably what will happen. And the final one now between Tipperary and Limerick for Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

I think tip after last week's showing, I think, for me anyway.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Yeah, I think tip as well. I think they're um they've had momentum behind them now, and Limerick are coming in a little bit cold, so I'll go with tip in that one as well.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

So we're all going with Tipberry there as well. So we're all going with the same thing. So probably jinx them out and said, but you see, usually I go with it, never comes out wrong. But that's it now for this week's episode. Before we go, just remind you, uh, we're on to find you can find us on Instagram at Talk and Kamoge Podcast, and also on X at Talking Komoge Pod. Follow us in that, and also you can get listen to us on Apple, Spotify, and Amazon Music, among others. Don't forget to like and subscribe to the pod and give us a five star rating if you like what you hear. And I just before go, I'd like to thank you both, Elaine Ankhot, for joining us this week. It'd be a pleasure having you on, and thanks to Millia, for coming on. Appreciate it, Joe. Thank you for having us. Thanks for having us, Joe. All right, that's all now for this week.