Episode 20: Cork are back on top again

I'm joined by Elaine Dermody and Elaine Aylward to look back on three All-Ireland finals last Sunday, and we also discuss the year just gone by, and how successful the ruke changes and the structure changes to the championship have been, and whether we will see the full effect of them just yet, or whether it will take another year or two for the ful story to be told. The girls also talk about which players are in contention for player of the year. We also hear from both Ashling Thompson and Millie Condon after Cork's victory on Sunday.

The podcast will be going on a few week break after this week, but we will be back throughout the rest of the year at variousn stages with special episides and guests. If there is any topic you would like us to discuss on a future episode you can gey in touch with us either on Instagram where were at talkingcamogiepodcast or on X at talkingcamogiepod, or you can email us at talkingcamogiepodcast@gmail.com. And if you like what you have hear everyweek don't forget to subscribe and give us a 5 star rating on whichever podcast host it is you are listenung to us on. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You welcome back to the latest episode of the Talking World Podcast. And trying to think by the two LAs, Damnody and the Lane Network. Thanks, Joe. And in this week's episode, we're looking back on the All-Inland Finals on Sunday. Antrim had an accomplice win over Leash and Armand had a two-point victory over Kavan. So look, I suppose big week, big weekend. Look, obviously the record probably violent over 23,000. So tremendous achievement for Camogi as a whole. Like great to see that much people there, like more there than it was for the football final as well. So that was not bad going, so it wasn't.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

No, it wasn't. I mean, it's probably the first time in a while I'd say that the Camogis exceeded the ladies' football. You know, it's great to see it, and it was a great atmosphere there as well. You know, really kind of a party atmosphere. And I have to give hats off to the Camogi Association. Like they really do jazz it up. But maybe it's not to everyone's taste, I don't know, but with the you know the disco music and the you know, the kind of mini fireworks and the flames and all that, you know, it's it's it really is it's a great day to bring families and to bring kids and stuff to Co Park because obviously with the hurling all earned football all Ireland, you know, it's impossible to get tickets number one, but you know, it's um it's probably not as much of an experience as it is for them. So no, I think hats off did a good job.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

And obviously, look, if you went to this senior game there now, look, Cork obviously can chew in the end two four or two fourteen to nineteen points, like and probably deserves it overall. Like, probably won't a better team and look two goals for Kruzman. And look, Elaine, you were saying that last week, Paul, goals could be massive in this game, and that's what it turned out to be in the end.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Yeah, well, that was uh was a bit of a hit and hope one for me now. But I was yeah, I just I just thought that they'd have to get a couple of goals, and Howie had been so so airtight, really, up to now. And but I thought they took their their goals very well, and you know they I suppose the second one in particular, it's the route one, isn't it? It's it's the route one. They hit the ball up direct direct hit. Sorkin McCartney has brilliantly, knocks it down and into Circe McCarthy's path. And do you know, Joe? I think I think her goal was I look back at it on on the TV again, like she's so much work to do. It looks easy, but she really had so much work to do, and uh, I thought she finished it brilliantly, but they end up being key, yeah, and and Galway couldn't pierce the the cork goal, so they're in the biggest game of the year. So unfortunate for them.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

And look Galway we said have what injury or has come into the game, and they weren't held through the game either way, injured. Like obviously Lee Mallon started in the end, but should he lasted 17 minutes and then Carol Hickey gone off injured as well. Like, and that's just two crucial losses for Gowell. Like, no, two key players for them this year. You know, I suppose they would have been like have me started, but you know, as I said, only lasted 17 minutes, and she was going well up to that stage of that before she got that injury as well. So that's a couple of big losses well, the two didn't really.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

Yeah, it was a huge loss, I think. And look, it was probably a huge gamble starting her. You know, she hadn't played any championship comoge since those first couple of minutes in the first round game, nine weeks, I think, without championship comoge. So even had the shoulder been 100%, I suppose it's a huge, huge game. And look, the ferocity that was around the middle of the field the other day, it was no place for anyone that wasn't 100% fit. And in fairness to Laura Hayes, she hit her hard and she hit her often in that first 15 or 17 minutes that she was on the field, and that's the way the hits were going in. And I know hindsight's the wonderful thing. You just wonder maybe if the game had been if you don't know if the you were going to get 15 or 20 minutes out in Eve Mallon, maybe it's it's later in the second half when things would have died down a bit, maybe and things were a little bit calmer if they got calm at any stage. I'm not sure. But in around that full forward line, she might have been worth a point or two at that stage. But I suppose up your planning for it because you know maybe she hasn't, as far as I'm aware, the shoulder wasn't holding up great. It has popped out a couple of times, I think, in training since. So they're probably expecting her to not last the full hour. But to lose Kira Hickey then on top of it, I think was the real killer blow. You know, she'd really started to cement her place into the game during that. She took her probably a while to settle now. Cork were good on her and put a lot of pressure on her. But coming up to halftime, I think she was starting to really grow into the game and she was going to have a huge impact on it. And to lose your centre back, and I suppose their whole game plan really, their whole defence is anchored around her being that sweeper there. So to lose her, I think they probably did lose their way for kind of five or ten minutes there in the middle of that second. She went off around the was the 42nd or 43rd minute. They conceded the second goal shortly after it. Now, to their credit, they battled back massively for the last 10 or 15 minutes and they put all that pressure on on Cork and on the Cork goal. But I suppose you just can't afford to lose your centre back and get out of the game for maybe five or ten minutes against a team like Cork because they will punish you. And I don't think any team could survive losing a key player like that and such a crucial stage.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

That's not the turn up the key. But just one more thing on Galway. I thought I can't remember what minute away, but Galway had a three, it was 30 meters out. Like there was I think there was kind of five or six points in it at the time. And I at the time, I suppose, look, you think go for one, like she went carry went short, like and Cork eventually ended up clearing it. But in hindsight, now at the end of the game, when there's only a point in it at the end, you know, if she knocked that over, probably would have been a draw then. Like so if we want to probably look on back maybe a little bit on what if like I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Yeah, it was the 57th minute, I think. Around then there was five points in it. Yeah, so I was looking at the clock at the time and I said, like, with three ordinary minutes, we'd had Kierhickey's injury. You know, I said you she's probably going to get another. There's probably eight or nine minutes left in this year, and as it turned out, there was probably nine or ten. And I think look, that one probably Sarah Healy's one. I think all we'll be a little bit disappointed. They'll probably have regrets about their game management coming into the end of it there. Like there was those two dead balls, say Sarah Healy's free and Carrie Dolan's free. And then actually from the Carrie Dolan free, Cork went straight down and got a point. Sergeant McCarthy got a point at the other end. So it was nearly a two-point swing at that stage. So instead of it going back to four, it ended up being out at six, I think, at that stage. So those two ones, but they had a couple of like uncharacteristic wides, I suppose, from play as well. Carrie Dolan had one herself. I think Need Nyland had one as well. Just you know, really uncharacteristic. I know the pressure is on at that stage of the game, but when they look back and I think a little bit of their decision making, maybe coming down the home straight there, and they could have been that little bit closer.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

Yeah, I agree with I'd agree with all that. Yeah, it's it's it's a game of inches, really, as well. Listen, I mean, Carrie's pass from the free doesn't go to hand, that's from what I recall. I think it or or it's dropped, or it doesn't flow. If that sticks, there's a shot on there for a goal. I would always say it wasn't that great vision, wasn't that a great you know, decision to do that? So it really is a game of inches, but it was a massive swing, Elaine. You're right. Like it really, it really was, especially the hammer blow of them going down the field, sorry, cork going down the field and getting a point. Like that's just no matter how mentally strong you are, that's a bit of a demoralising turn of events. But like I say, it's it's such a small, you know, interesting. If that ball sticks, if Carrie pings it, I can't remember who it was, to hand and the shot was on for a goal, we'd have been all raving and saying how wonderful it was. But that's just the tight margins and a point. You'll always have regrets, you know. There's so so many probably regrets that they'll have over you know, this shot and that shot and this decision and that decision. It's just so so tight. It really is the fitting of the two teams because they're that close together, you know. They really are.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

And like for Cork, you know, obviously it was rightly great to win, but like like obviously Circa McCartan got clear the match. And but I thought I thought look, she deserved it. I'm not saying she didn't, but I thought Laura Hay definitely ran her close anyway. Well, in my opinion, anyway, I thought Laura was brilliant out there and winning the defeat like for the whole game, like with the work rate she got through and everything, just uh this world thought was.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Yeah, the hits she took, the hits she gave, I'd say she covered every blade of grass. She ended up full back there at some stage, coming near the end of it, defending Amy Lee's goal. Like she covered absolutely every blade of grass. And look, I think she was the instigator of a lot of what was good about Corp. I thought she was able assisted by Millie Condon. I thought she's had a real breakout year for Corp. I think she was really, really good in the semi-finals as well. I think she really came to life in the league maybe this year when she started to get a bit of a free roll. You know, she had no Ashton Thompson beside her to guide her, but I thought she really, really stepped up for such a young player. I thought her work rate was massive as well. So they would probably have been my three front runners, uh, Millie Condon, Laura Hayes, and Sarah McCartin. I just think the points, the four points Sarah McCartin got were just there. There's you could make a reel of them on their own, the four of them and watch them from different sides of the field offer different the way she just makes space for herself. Like and any 50-50 ball coming in just to her reach, her arm spread, I suppose she's able to get it first touch into the hand. And you know, she's a tall, strong player. Like, I suppose we probably take for granted maybe how how good her touch is, but to swing over those points and get them at crucial stages, like she took real, real watching, and I suppose that then because she was so influential, freed up that little bit of space for Orla Cannellan for her goal, and probably the little bit of space that Circe McCarthy got to get in for her goal as well. You know, everyone's probably watching Serica McCartney going for it, and and suddenly it broke to Cersei McCarthy, and she, in fairness, her took it really, really well. But yeah, Cork's big players, I think. No more than Galway's. Like I thought Carrie Dolan had a huge, huge error. And I actually think that's probably why she didn't strike that last three. I know Sarah Healy would have a massive belt on a ball, and she's probably the one you want from distance. But the 66 minutes Carrie Carrie Dolan had put in before that, I'd say she probably hadn't an ounce of energy left. And she did come to the sideline to call Murray to say the ref it said to her, This is it, you have to go for it. And it was then they called Sarah Healy up. So I think it was a combination of everything. I think if if maybe Carrie Dolan had a little bit of time, maybe had she won the free herself, even I think, to maybe compose herself, but time was really against them. And then Sarah Healy rushing up the field, the clock is against her already because it takes her a couple of seconds to realise that they actually want her to come up the field. So by the time she gets up to it, it's kind of nearly to put it down and it hit it straight away. So I think a little bit of composure there from Galway, but look, it's the 66th minute of an hour line, and finally you've just been told it's the last buck of the game, like it's it's desperation station. So yeah, there were some of the regrets, I suppose, that they will have. But look, yeah, the huge play, the big players did stand up for them all, and I think yeah, no, so more so than those three car players.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Just two of them caught and go with look the last like obviously three in a run, and they've not been a hotline final, but they really have taken Camogee to another level over the last three years for have as a two team, like, and it just seems to be getting better and better every year, like the and physically it just seems to be getting better and better. Like, and like some of the hits that were going in now, some of them are maybe you could argue, maybe one or two carries all the way in particular in the first half. But lucky now, not the ABX Rick Harry, as some people are saying. But if you get your opinion, uh some were a couple of challenges you went in for their join up for that, you know.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Yeah, the physicality was I mean, it was the difference, I suppose, as well. When it's obviously no disrespect to intermediate or junior, but like when you see that that level, it really you know shows the diff the the gap in the different in the different uh levels. But in Komoge, I think these two teams are out on their own. I think look, we we can talk about tip, and I know Elaine obviously Kitteny look like they're they're coming back on a good track as well, but I think that gap is probably there. And we probably didn't maybe think that Cork was maybe as close to go away or going to be as close to go away this year. So I think the work they've done has been absolutely remarkable. The physicality, yeah. Like I know Ursula said that she thought maybe Carrie Dolan could have saw red. Yeah, it's it's I don't know. I suppose look at yeah, it's all they had high tackles now. There would have been a time maybe wouldn't have even been a yellow. Do you know what that's that but obviously the game has changed and you have to protect the player. I think Carrie, I she doesn't she she ever so slightly moves her shoulder a little bit in the tackle, and it's very, very I there's no clear and obvious, I don't think, in the moment where the ref can say, you know, high elbow or a high hurl or you know, or a high arm or anything swinging. It's like it's it's almost like a little flick of the shoulder. You only really see it in slow motion. And I don't even I'm I'm not even saying it's into it's just maybe a tame to get away with those probably two challenges really. But Laura Hayes, I mean, she was on the end of one, or she she was on the end of one of them, I think, in the first half, I think was it? She was, you know, she she she was up up and gone again and gave an unbelievable performance for the rest of the game. So it just shows you the recovery of these players. And look at, I mean, at the end of the game, I don't know what you thought, Lane, but like it looked like the girls could kind of now, you know, the majority go for another 15-20 minutes, no problem. So, I mean, hats off to the conditioning of teams behind in the managements because it's next level now, it really is. And you know, you'd hear you'd hear a lot of men now talking about and saying some hard hits in that like, you know, and kind of nearly admiring it in a sense as well. So um, I think the interest level has gone up, even with the extra bit of physicality as well.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah, definitely. And I think you have to give credit both set to teams, like you said, Laura Hayes took a hit there, she got up, but she was gone again. There was nobody, you know, rolling around the ground looking for anyone to be sent off. I think, and you know, it was very very honest, very fair. I think all across the board, people were prepared to give the hits and they were prepared to take them. They knew it was coming. And look, I think he refereed it, he left it flow. You know, he was equal to both teams. I wouldn't say that he favoured any side over the other. Like, you know, Laura Hayes gave and took plenty of them as well. Carrie Dolan gave and took plenty of them. Yeah, but yeah, the strength and the condition of the two of them, even to be up close to him in Thorless, I think, the day of the semi-finals. And I a couple of people remarked it to me, you know, when they were in the tunnel going out, and Galway went out one way and Kilkenny went out the other, and they just said the stark difference. You know, Kikenny are obviously a younger team, not as far along the line as regards strength and condition as Galway are. And they said just physically the difference between them is huge. And you're right, Lane, it has got people talking. You know, men now that maybe wouldn't have been watching Camogey up to now are starting to sit up and take notice. And look, that doesn't excuse any any ha hedge-high tackles or anything like that, and it's probably something the Camoge Association will look at. But I actually think if you look back across the championship in in general, we probably like we saw it's a fine, fair physical game now that probably buys over a little bit in the All-Ireland final, and that's probably down to the two teams being so familiar with one another. You know, familiarity breeds a bit of contempt, and they would have said before in the build-up, there's no love lost between us, which is fair enough, too. But they do know one another so well, and I think Galway hit Cork so hard last year in that opening 15-20 minutes to the All-Ireland final. Cork were never going to let that happen again to them. You know, they weren't going to be bullied as they would have seen it last year by Galway around the field this year. So we certainly would have expected it. And yeah, as I said, it was a real war zone there for a while. There was one stage I think me Mallon was down on one side, Millie Condon was down the other. Carrie Jolan was gone off for a blood sub after about 15 or 16 minutes. Maybe we'll get back to the pace of this now because it was hectic, but it was brilliant. Like it was up and down the field, it was fair challenges, it was you know hit after hit. But as I said, both sets of players got up and got on with it. There was no one looking for anyone to be sent on for 19 minutes. That and Gavin Dann can left if we're calling now for for years. I can recall trying to do a co-com on All Interferior where it was you know nine-sevenths, seven frees to five frees, and and nobody wants to see that. That's not a spectacle for anyone. So credit to the girls, and as you said, the backroom teams, the threat and condition that's there. The girls are in peak physical condition, and it's brilliant now that they get to show it off and it gets to showcase our game.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Broken finger was it, I think, from the game as well. So, like, you know, that's for play theater. Like, you know, every time I broke a finger and they'll be quite nearly a three year after it's my one. So I was there to do anything at home on the as on the farm, but if I broke it on the farm, I was there to do anything for uh use it as you don't do anything for a long time. So yeah, I know bad modes, but like just I'm just like on it like Cork. Where do you think that Cork won the game and overall like we didn't win a good game at 10 like comes to get it's hard to know?

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Like, I I don't have any one defining moment. I think Sarka McCartan, I think I don't think we can underestimate her influence on the game, and she brings just that something different. Like she gave Cork an outlet, when they're under pressure, we can hit the ball up there. And Sorka might win it all the time, but the Gaway backs are not going to get clean possession with her around. And once it hits the ground, as we saw with I think actually Zora Calan's goal, I was I was I should have been praising earlier on. We saw it the forward running has to get lucky once, you know. So I think their game quinds, they show great pace, but they were also able to maybe mix it up a little bit and when under pressure, you know, launch the ball forward and and have that that outlet in Sorkin McCartan. And I thought she was absolutely immense in so many ways. And her attitude and her work rate and their number of runs even that she made off the ball, even when she didn't get the ball, she stead, she's still running. So look at it, it's not uh it's not about one about one player. I just thought, Joe, and I don't know, I suppose what you would think, Elaine. I just thought in that last few minutes, the hurt and the hunger was just that decimal point above above Galways. And that's probably that's very, very hard to reach that again, I suppose, when you've been winning, you know, and you won last year. But there's there's an element of kind of almost madness that comes into it to you at one stage where you just say you're not going to lose anymore. And I think that kind of came into it in the last, you know, the last year's like cork bodies were thinging themselves at balls, they were, you know, dragging players down, look, all within within the, you know, I suppose giving away freeze or whatever, within the within the rules or whatever. But I just I just felt like they almost had an attitude of not today, you know, and it's not going to be, we're not going to be going back in there with our heads down and tears in our eyes. And just felt ever so slightly, and I I don't know, maybe maybe I'm being unfair and go, ever so slightly, I just felt there was just that little bit more kind of almost madness hunger. And I think Elaine is right. I think they're big players, you know, the Sorkin McCartans. I thought Orla Cahalan was very quiet from the first half, but it's a mark of the player that she is that in the second half she was so influential and took that goal really, really well. I know I I said it already, but she took that goal really, really well. That is not a hard butt and an easy finish because you know the ball is coming at you very quick, it's going away from your body, you have to control it. She didn't break stride, you know, settled her feet and and at textbook finish, you know. So I think they just their their bigger players maybe might have just had the little edge and and with some wonderful performance on both on both teams, to be honest. But I don't know if there's a single incident that should say is the reason Cork won and Galloway didn't win. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

I do think Elaine, but no, I think generally yeah, as you said, a general team performance. I know I would have thought I spoke a lot about beforehand the the four debutants on the wings and the wing backs for for Galway, the two wing backs and the Cork two wing backs. I thought Cork's two wing backs, Ava Fitz and Isabel Sheen probably stood up. They probably came out the better, like they had a mountain of possessions between the two of them. I thought they were really, really good on the ball. Ava Fitz won one in front of the Hogan stand there at one stage and looked up, and I think it was Eva Dunno who was in front of her, and like she had every right to just strike it and get it away for her. But no, for a young player, she had the confidence to go out. She stepped out past Eva Dunho and she drove on. I just thought they really stood up. I think they really left a mark on it. And like you said, Elaine, while their big players have really, really big games, I think their marginal players, their fringe players, their newcomers, probably were just that shade better than the Galway newcomers on the day. And I think that helped them as well. Like you can see, like obviously every intercounty team is bonded, is you know, playing for one another. But I think those eight weeks, and a lot of the players spoke about it. Amelie Condon, I think, did an interview afterwards and said she didn't even see the improvement coming, but it was obviously there. I think that eight weeks from being not the outside the Munster Championship, they went and win won the under-23. I think that probably gave the under-23s a huge confidence coming back in then to the likes of the Ashton Thompson, the Laura Hayes, the Cersei McCarthy's. And suddenly I think they probably bonded and realized, hey, you know, we're we're heading back to the top here now. We're not we're not by any means gone. And I just thought those fringe players, the two cornerbacks, Vegan and Maeve Callan, I thought were really, really solid as well. And I just thought more out of them, and I think that probably stood them then coming down the home street as well. But as you said, Lena, I think there was probably that little bit of extra heart as well, and it's hard to replicate it if you haven't been beaten the year before. Like, you know, hunger to win is is massive. And when you've been beaten in the circumstances they were beaten the year before, going for three in a row, like you know the talk, you know, no one will ever talk about talk of three in a row or talk of doing back to back, but you know, in the Cork dressing room, they were motivated to stop Galway doing the back-to-back when Galway had stopped them doing the three in a row last year. So whether they admit it openly or not, I'm sure it was spoken about in both dress rooms. And sometimes, as you said, it is that something of that desperation at the end that just makes you you fling your body on the line that for that second faster than maybe you shouldn't do. And I think Cork were were that little bit possessed, maybe from the first round of the championship this year. Once they got back, I think, into that win and flow, they went up to Athony Ride that first day, and they really made a mark on the championship estate. Like there was no doubt that they were going to be all Ireland, I think, in their minds from there on. And they carried it in a fairness and unbeaten in the championship the whole way through, and really deserving winners then on some day.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

One thing, and then I remember you mentioned that they're like they were fouled in sometimes, you know, they're like dark art, I suppose is what they're called, really. But like, and I think that's not wrong with that. I I think all successful teams have that in them, like you know, and I think that's where where there's been the success, like and maybe that's where Cork and Galway part of the reason. No, not saying it's the only reason, but why they're so successful. Like, you know, you see it other teams like playing Cork and Galway, they don't want to do that. It's just Cork were playing Tipperary, they're Cork were in their goals, like there's no one found another Tipperary players were going to Found or anything. And you know, but that's the other end. You guarantee that one of the Cork players would have dragged down the Tipperary player at the time, you know, and they've done it against Galway, they're coming towards the NFL on a two or three occasions. Like, look, they got to the job done, so like no complaints, like from that perspective. Like, if it works, you know it works, like you know.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Absolutely. Let's be honest. I mean, every every team would would do it in an Ireland final. If someone is going through, you're pulling her down. Even if you had a black card, I'd I'd still say, you know, if you were two points up and someone is going through, you would you would nearly take the black card, you would, you would do anything. Look at I don't think Cork did anything that Gaway wouldn't do, or that Gaway wouldn't have done before, or that Tipperary wouldn't do, or you know, in the same situation. You know, it was about it was about protecting what they had. And let's be honest, there was a lot of, you know, as Elaine said, a lot of hunger and a lot of hurt there on the Cork team, and probably a lot of a lot of um inexperience there as well, but experience in maybe the right positions as well. And uh was gone far enough that they were now in a in a dangerous area, so now they need to be stopped, you know. But again, I have to say the Cork didn't do anything that I don't think any other county would do in the last few minutes of an all Ireland final. Whether the black card becomes its thing in comoge now I suppose is probably a debate and you know you hear people going on about it but like I don't think there was anything I don't think there was a very very obvious clear 100% goal scoring chance that was snuffed out by a by a very cynical tackle there was cynical tackles made but I think they were further out so I think sometimes you know everyone can get up a little bit on their on their high horse but look at it maybe the black card is needed I mean we like to keep the rules I suppose fairly similar to the hurling equivalent but I think that's that can be a bone of frustration sometimes with with supporters of of both you know that there's a different rule in Kamoe than there is in in Hurling so maybe it will it will come in for a variety of reasons but yeah it it's still I don't think it would stop either of us Elaine or I pulling someone down in the two minutes to go in that and final episode someone in on goal you know so you know it's it's it's it's probably earlier on in the game that I think it stops that.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

I mean I don't know what to do in the last few minutes of a game because I think human nature is that you just do anything to protect your your lead really within reason you know yeah and I think there's a reason the two defenses hadn't conceded a goal Baron maybe up until until Sunday is that they are the meanest defenses around and they don't concede goals easily. So if the opportunity or if the danger is there, I mean you do and I mean cynical phone has been in it since the game began probably you know you protect the goal at all costs. I know I was talking to Kate Kelly from Wetsford afterwards and she said she reckons that if someone had pulled down Marine heading for goal in their first round game, you know, they were up the two points and offly went and got the goal she reckons if they someone had pulled her down and taken the the black card if it was there and the point she said they could probably still be senior. So you know you get in more trouble probably for not taking someone down than you would for taking someone down. And as you said in the 66th minute or whatever the 65th minute of an final you're going to do whatever it takes to to prevent a goal going in. So look I don't think we've seen this here I don't think the black card has solved all the problems in Harlan either it certainly addressed some of them but it has its own issues as well so look it's probably something I've been sure reviewing regardless of what the punishment is if you're in the last couple of minutes of an Ireland final and you're defending a leader you're going to take whatever punishment is given to you at that stage.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yeah look I trust you know I don't know I leave him if it gets the job done if it gets the job done and that's the main thing at the end of the day like but on also Sunday in the first game we had the premium junior final and Matt Ken threw 17 points against Neil Britt so Burr Calvin I thought this was actually a fairly good game like I have four teams tried some good stuff at times and I was impressed by Calvin, especially in the first half at times I just thought maybe I have a little bit more experience of playing in the B games and other fighters and they had that little bit more composure especially in the second half and that's what helped them get over the line because I thought half of the times in the second half maybe they had there a few couple of decent decent attacking position but just whether it was panic or just a lack of composure they didn't finish the chances and it cost to them in the end. I think that's where Armad maybe just that little bit more experience they had helped him go over the line in the end.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

It was um it was a really solid game actually a really enjoyable game and some super scores in it but like you said I think Armag's experience maybe just saw them true. They had a massive couple of minutes I think maybe five minutes before halftime and kind of the five minutes after halftime that 10 minute period they were two points down at halftime and they turned that around to to go five up I think just after halftime and I think that was the period they did the most damage to Kavan Kavan took their credit hundred back into it and they had loads of opportunity coming near the end but credit to Armad they stood up strong you know a couple of really good saves on the end line and as you said Joe maybe just a little bit of inexperience from Kavan you know just probably for trying to force the goal a bit too soon or maybe not been having the patience to work it into a point score and opportunity but where you look where they've come from you know Armageddon campaign I think they won the 3A league and Kavan didn't even field in the league. So when you look at where they've come from and you know I know for the next couple of days or whatever it won't it won't look like a great day for for Kavan but when they look back on the year as a whole it certainly has been a good year for them from you know 10 a train and I think the first couple of nights they try to train to get into that premier junior final and to being really really close to winning it. So lucky to hope that they can keep things together for next year and build on this year and they have a right shot at it last year. But as I said it was a really really entertaining game and like 17 points to 15 is some super points scoring that we probably haven't seen in the premier intermediate in a long number of years.

SPEAKER_04 26:14

Yeah I'd second that I thought it was I thought it was a very enjoyable game really was I thought it was a great spectacle for the first game out and some really really good scores and wonderful to see like Kevin I mean they're unbelievable story don't feel in the league as Christina O'Reilly then comes on plays football with our ma plays camoe with Kevin you know all these stories all these Joe even just add to the profile of the thing as well you know I know they're not maybe directly related to what's happening on the pitch but it all builds that bit of intrigue and a bit of interest and you know it you know I I know like people might say Kavan in a camoe on Ireland because they don't associate necessarily Cavan with being a strong hurling county or whatever. So I think it's massive credit to Kavan and it's great to showcase that and if it gets a few girls in Cavan wanting to buy hurls wanting to buy helmets great and it gets a few boys wanting to buy hurls and wanting to buy helmets fantastic. So I think they were one of the real stories of the weekend even though they didn't win. On the other side that Armagh I mean I think it's four finals they've lost maybe in the last few years. I mean that's heartbreak you know and that's the mental strength to come back and come back and come back and get over the line and I thought look at the scoreline was close enough I thought our man were probably a couple more points even than that better than Kavan in my very humble opinion but I was I was very impressed by Armand and I hope that they build on this now and you know go up to intermediate and just look to you know to retain I suppose and stay there and then try try and you know improve over the next couple years.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

But thoroughly enjoyable game really was now yeah really was like our suppose they can take a bit of inspiration results from leash maybe this year you know getting going off and getting through to an all and final like I know they were well beaten by Ansher Matt weekend but like it it is a very strong Ansher team like in fairness you know so but like it just it's something maybe they can be because I don't think there's too much of a gap between the premier junior and the intermediate to be honest with you. You know I think it's and like I know there's some good teams in the intermediate as well but there's not much so I think if they keep the team to have and maybe add one or two new younger players you know they might have they might do do all right there now but just something intermediate like look Antrim everything 122 to 11 height you know like Russian the carmaking 112 and look we're throwing this team up for Indian all year like and they weren't even favor kind of knew they were going to favour to come in especially after the league compared it had like no they were really impressive in the league and you know winning the 23b so it has a lot of good jumpers come at two.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

So like the game it was a bit complex for Highball just Antrim had too much for them in the end at the end of it all like Yeah I think Leash did really well to hold Antrim for as long as they probably did I think Antrim had two really good goal scoring opportunities very very early in the game and it was a worry that if they had gone in that the game would have just gotten away from Leash very early. But to their credit they stuck at it and I actually really like Leash as a hurling team I think they I think they have some lovely hurlers and they're well able to to take some good scores from out the field but as you said they just came up against an Antrim team that in in all bar name really I suppose is a senior team look we saw how they got on in Division 1A in the league this year they were really really competitive and I know they're relegated but they did be cork down in Cork which was no mean feat despite you know whatever cork team it was they still travelled down to MTU and got a victory down there and they had some really really good performances they didn't get the results maybe that they deserved along the way and you could depend here that they were relegated from 1A because I think they could be competitive there and it's a chance for them to maybe test themselves against the stronger teams time and time again but they'll get that in the championship now next year. And I actually think if that Antrim team had been in the senior championship this year they would have had a really good chance of making a quarter final maybe you know I think they could have done really well in that tier two group so look I think they just showed their class on Sunday like the likes of Roshi McCormick she reminds me so much of Ann Dalton actually she's just able to make time on the ball for herself her striking is fabulous. She's able to create things like the goal probably didn't look like there was much on probably didn't look like it goes for an opportunity to to nine out of ten players but she sees that small little chink that little gap that all good players do takes on the sidestep and finishes it really really well and look Kelly was really really good for them as well did a couple of really good you know youngsters as well that Eva McAllen five points I think she scored from play in her first day out in Croak Park so they have some good as you said they won John the 23b as well so they have some really good players coming through and they're probably best equipped out of those intermediate teams to go up and compete at the senior level I think for Alicia it probably would have been maybe a year or two too soon for them just when you look at as we spoke about the conditioning of of Galway and Cork and you know it's probably just as I said maybe a year or two too soon you know it was quick progress through the Intermediate League even to get to the All Ireland this year after being in in the junior final last year. So I think if they can you know as I said it's no guarantee just because you're in the intermediate final this year now you'll be back there next year. But I think if they can keep this bunch together keep the management over them and build on it I do think they've a really bright future and look they can look to the likes of of Offaly and Tilmerick I think in the senior championship and they certainly should be aiming to to get up there and to try and compete with them over the next year or two.

SPEAKER_04 31:04

Yeah 100% I think you're right Elaine I think Antrim are really they're they're senior quality really aren't they and I think they're to me there's very like I you know I've I saw obviously most of a lot of the Offley matches this year and I would say very little difference between you know Offaly Antrim, Dublin Antrim, Claire Antrim, maybe even well Claire might be maybe a little bit f further on but maybe you know maybe Limerick Antrim obviously Wexford are gone down you know so I think that Antrim team was yeah they just seem to be moving at a different pace a different gear and like Ocean McCormick was exceptional. And you're right yeah she she has even the sidestep of Anne Dalton. She took a sidestep there for the goal and you know you almost didn't see it like but yet the defender's gone the other way and Anne Dalton you're just gonna do the same thing. You know she'd fleet a foot but uh I think yeah their their quality and their age profile is is very very good and there's absolutely no reason I think they will be seriously competitive at senior level next year especially if the if the the groupings are the same as the word is here you know and you're you're in that kind of a bloodbat of of group two and anybody can beat anybody and let's be honest who's going to fancy a trip to Antrim you know what I mean uh to play championship because it's hard enough to play them anywhere but when you have to go to to Antrim they get right they get a good crowd in they get you you know it they're so passionate and I know that's not been you know it's it's it's not just lip service. They really really are like they absolutely love it and they have challenges that we you know we don't have you know in other counties so I think um I think Antrim are full value for their for their win. I think Leash probably overachieved getting to the final this year in in the sense of for themselves they mightn't have looked at it straight away but they had a wonderful win you know over Kerry and look in J's going to be tough again next year but there's no reason why with you know I think Amy Collier was a huge player for them and Antrim clearly knew that you could see you could see the Antrim defenders double marking maybe even triple marking knowing she was a threat you know and that was a respect thing towards her clora Tyner was very good.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

I think Ronnie Delaney had some great moments as well so again there's no reason why they can't be very competitive and really target that final next year again but as Elaine said there's no guarantee Wexford are down there now as well you know Kerry will be back there you know so it's it's you've Derry you've down you know you've you have teams there that are again a bit like the the group two in in in in in senior there's not a whole pile any given day anyone can beat anyone but uh again very enjoyable game but I think the pace that Antrim removing at was just too much for Lee Shrey if you have a look back at the year as a whole like and obviously there was a few new rules coming and all that like you know changing things and obviously the new structures in the senior I just want to like this new structure of the senior it's obviously look it made the senior a lot more competitive like we can see that by a lot closer games and everyone played teams at their own level but whether like the question there's one question arises and we probably don't get the answer for this one after this one year anyway with that maybe two or three years before we see but has it improved like the teams say maybe outside the top five you know has it is it bringing them closer to the top level or that and as he probably won't really know that one for another year or two, maybe three years maybe but do you think it will that will actually bring them up to level or is it just going to keep the same or will the top team just keep getting better because they're playing each other the whole time?

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Yeah I think that's my fear of of tier one or group one is that the top teams you've kind of just given them a license to train for an extra eight weeks to get to an All Ireland quarter semi-final and they get to try out these ways of playing or these structures or whatever against top quality opposition. So you know Cork got to go up to Athon Rod yesterday they get to to try out you know will Mave Murphy work as a weeper now we'll get to try her here against Neve McPeak she's not going to better meet better centre forward this year than Neve McPeak we'll see how that goes like I can see that I can see the purpose of it I can see why it was done. We had double digit beatings all over the place last year and it didn't look good at once and entertaining and I think you know the likes of a Limerick or an offly who are just up or maybe maybe not so much Antrim because I think they'll be competitive next year. But you know I can see if you're starting out the start of the year in Limerick and you're trying to get gather a panel together you're trying to get things going and you're saying right we're in a championship group with Cork, Golloway, Kilkenny and Tip. So our aim here is to win one game and try and stay up you know nobody wants that to be their aim at the start of the year and it's hard to motivate a panel or to get girls to commit I suppose in those fringe counties where you know you're not guaranteed to be an All Ireland semi-final or final so let's face it the the aim is to try and be as competitive as we can. So if you can turn around to that group and you can say right we're in with a group of five other teams we have a really good chance of winning three or four of those games they're teams of our own level so we have a chance of making an all-Ireland quarter final in Crow Park like that's a huge incentive to a team you know like Limerick maybe who have been handed out big beatings over the years. So from that point of view I know you'll get girls to commit to and you get to build but at the same time I don't think it's bringing them any closer to the Collways the corks the tips the waterfords of this world and I don't know if like obviously going out every week and getting a 20 point beating is not going to bring any closer either. So I think there has to be a happy medium somewhere in it. And I think a lot of the onus has to fall on some of those county boards themselves and some of the panels to to try and bridge the gap like I don't expect Cork and Galway to come back to the pack nor should they have to if they're raising the bar it's up to everybody else to go and chase that bar. But I just think there's only so many so much rejigging of the championship we can do. Like we rejigged it this year we still ended up with the same six teams on top as we did last year and I don't see how there's going to be a huge amount different like all right Kilkenny from tier two made it to the semi-finals this year. But I actually think Kilkenny could quite easily have been tier one this year if the extra time against Tipperary had gone differently last year and Tip could have been in tier two and they probably too could have had a chance and made a semi-final so I don't think that's a fair argument for it. I think the top four could easily have been the top five from last year there was very little between them. But yeah that's just my fear like I it will be very competitive I think for tier two for those teams but I just think that the step up to tier one will still be there regardless of what we do in that regard.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

I don't know if Elaine agrees or yeah it's a difficult one really isn't it because you hit the nail just if everything you've said is 100% right. If you're in a if you're in a count I'll take my own county if you're in Offaly and you're in a group with Lynn McClare Dublin with say Wexford and well it was Kilkenny this year but you're looking at that saying yeah we can target probably all those games maybe the Kilkenny game might be a bit far beyond we can retarget it and it brings the interest level in if if you're unlucky enough to be drawn in a group then with maybe you know you could be drawn in a group with depending on maybe the particular year you know if maybe Galway were locked out in a semi final you could have a Cork Galway you might then have Tipperary and like Kilkenny and off you know like it can go really bad and the the buy in then at that stage look I know it's the wrong way of looking at it but like in that's the reality on the ground I don't know whether in group one you can have a little bit more jeopardy I don't know whether there's a little bit of you know an extra game or something I mean tip loss I think did they lose three games I think they bet beat Waterford. You know it's three games and you're in a quarter final you know that's probably not ideal either. But at the same time I would look at the example of Waterford and I would say Waterford ten years ago were probably in that pack of players in what we call group two and they have risen and gotten to the standard through probably receiving a lot of beatings along the way but also getting their house in order contested an all-areland final right they haven't gotten over the line that's fine but you would still say Waterford are I suppose in your top five anyway in Ireland you know so I think a certain onus has to come onto on to on the counties to to raise that standard themselves and I mean look at you know you're you're meeting some of these teams in the league you can always get a challenge game or whatever um if if you so need or so want but I think having Galway going out and playing maybe a lower team two tier two team and and you know beating them off the pitch it serves no purpose really for anybody. I'm not sure how you could add more Jeopardy to group one but I think maybe if there was a small bit more or or maybe a bit more of a crossover with the group two somehow and I'm not even sure in my own head how it would work but that there is a little bit of the exposure to it then maybe it would be good. But I I think I think I'd like to see it retained for another year or two anyway to till you have a good lot of evidence one way or another whether it's working or not. Whether Cork and I think Cork and Gaul are they're out on their own a little bit at the moment and I think no matter what way the champion structure is they're still going to be out on their own. You know and a lot of it is to with volume a lot of it's too with players a lot of them to do with the strength at underage level so I mean a senior team doesn't become a senior team just overnight. It's it's built on your underage structure and your underage success and the players coming up true. So I think look I think you'd have to kind of hang on to it. There's lots wrong with it but I think you'd have to give it a fair shot for another year or two and just see how it's working out really.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah I think you hit the nail in the head there if you if you can retain it for another couple of years and give the likes that they have a chance maybe to to bring their under 23s through and like you said counties need to get their own houses in order as well like if you look at the really successful teams like look at Galway Colmine years they've had continuous succession girls know when they commit to a panel what's committed in Galway if you look at Cork you know Germany is there now he was on Matthew Toomey's ticket two years ago Matthew Toomey and Germanly were on Potty Murray's ticket before to that they were really successful similar to Tip you know they had Bill Mulani then they've had Dennis Kelly so there's continuation there. So girls know I know what I'm committing to here. This is the certain condition it's really really good. This is the nutritionist we have you know obviously there'll be some level of change but girls can commit then and it allows the manager to build from year to year and you know can see what was done last year what they might need to change for this year but all within where if you look at a team like if you look at the teams that are are struggling at the moment say Wexford for the last four years have had three managers and it's only now that they're starting to get a bit of stability there that they're starting to see the fruits of that again. So like I do think the Komoge Association can do so much for you. But I think county boards then need to and that's probably where the structure at the moment will help them because if you're offly now for example and you can retain your senior staff for a couple of years it gives you a chance to build it gives a manager a chance I suppose he's not in in a year and fighting relegation maybe straight away and then it's like you know what I don't need this I move on to somewhere else and then a gluttiger the players go with them and then you know you're building again and it seems like in some of those smaller tier two counties we call them, you know, that they're rebuilding every year. They're back and it's a new manager and it's a new panel and a huge turnover players and Dublin is probably a classic example of you know Dublin have a massive turnover players every year where they should have you know a steady flow of players that they can commit to every year. And like you can't it's hard to compete then when you're starting from scratch every single year. So if tier two gives them anything it should give them a bit of stability. Like you said they can target maybe four out of the five games straight away and they have a realistic chance every year of making a quarter final. So that should help management it should help the county board and it should help the panel of players as well so as you said it's worth probably sticking with it for a couple of years to see if some of those counties can bridge that gap as Waterford have done in the last 10 years.

SPEAKER_04 42:07

Yeah that's a brilliant point on the managements I think you're it's you're spot on. It's no coincidence really is it and their fingerprints are probably all over the underage structures as well maybe not maybe indirectly as well but I do think yeah I think you're right I think counties have to come up to it you know we can't like this is this is adult comoky you know you can't be bringing people by the hand all the time you know there's a certain amount you have to do yourself. And look at certain challenges in certain counties with playing numbers and and resources and we know all that. But I think certainly as a player probably the way the structure is at the moment if I'm in uh that group tier two county I will convince myself I can win four of those five games but if I'm in a in a in a group with you know maybe two teams out that I already know right those two games are written off and and look at I know you shouldn't say that but like realistically that's the way it that's the way it is you know so you might get freak results in the league but I think counties now are so professional that even catching any of the big counties on a on a on a given day is probably got a thing in the past you know because they do tend to be trying to you know build consistency on their teams and all that but it's a great point about the management yeah absolutely I think you're spot on there.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

It could be large about it as well like uh trying to catch bridge teams up to the level indeed is it's a bit too late at senior level anyway because you kind of need to do another underage level like I don't start under 13 under 14 and that but once it goes to senior level like it's nearly too late and it is like well also just you're saying there about jeopardy and group one and the year I thought was like for next year you have five teams in group one, five teams in group two you have to forward this year and bring Continuo to group one because they finish off to group two. Well like even if you have the same structure as this year where four teams come out of group one and two out of group two at least then you'd have to five teams in group one and only four of them will get out of one of them to finish got on that at least you you have to win at least one game anyway to get out of again and it would be more Jeopardy and that, and then even the team that finishes bottom or group bottom, then the next year will be replaced with the team of top of group two. So at least a team for group two, then maybe every second year or something that might play the teams of group one and just give them like that and give them an incentive to finish up, maybe just complaining. I know it might at first they might suffer one or two million, but it might just win them on as well, like you know, and uh plus they will give group one maybe a bit of jeopardy then because like and you want to have the situation of a team losing all their games and still qualified for the knockout stage.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Yeah, and I think it's I think it's I think it's a fair point, Joe. I think um yeah, I mean look, maybe it could be the two two teams go up to to to group one and two go down, you know. I the you know, I just try and have that bit of exposure because I think realistically there's probably five counties that are we could say there's the there's the you know that are probably just that bit ahead. I think Kilkenny are only going one direction, and that's that's that's up, you know. So I think a bit of uh there's probably there's probably a bit of tweaking that could be done that could have a small bit more exposure for the group two teams, but I have to say, look, it uh it's it's it's hard without you need it, and I think sometimes we're very quick to say, oh that's not working. You know, you gotta give it a period of time, you know. It's a bit like the football rules, you know, you can tweak it, but I think you gotta give it a bit of time to really have a form a proper opinion, you know. And I think we've had a good Komogi championship this season. Certainly, I suppose I would have seen a lot more of our group two games, and a lot of them are very good, they were very close, they were very competitive. And I mean, on the last day, which is what you want, you had I think three or four teams that could have gotten through, you know. So I I I I definitely that that grows the interest in it as well. And look, the interest will be there in group one anyway, because they're they're the big hitters. Everyone's gonna want to know, you know, how are Cork getting on, how are Gaway getting on, can Tip make a stab at something, you know, could could Waterford you know, you know, go down to Cork and win or whatever. So I think from an interest level, and the last thing you want is on the news, the six o'clock news, is seeing, you know, Cork 525 and team in group two one three or something like that. You know, that's we don't want to see that. And if the if the gap is is as big as maybe we might think it is, that's still a possibility. So we probably are better off with the structure that we have, I think, at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 46:14

Yeah, and credit to the comoge association in fairness for for recognizing that something needs to be done and for trying it. And that goes, you know, for the tried rules, I suppose, in the league this year and holding on to some of them for the championship, meaning for the championship structure, like it would have been very easy to say, no, this is the way we've done it, and this is the way we've always done it, which you know wouldn't be unusual for the Camoge Association either. But but to recognize that something needed to be done, I suppose, and to try something new is even you know a step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned. And look, I think it gives them their dues for trying to change it, give them time to to see how it works and what the benefits and the negatives of it are. And I'm sure they'll revisit it and there will be probably some tweaks or whatever after feedback. And look, I think Amory Hayes made the point on Sunday game. Let's talk to the managers, let's talk to the players, let's see what they think about what they feel about it. Um I think it'll be interesting to see from group one, maybe in if if the no Jeffrey thing stays in the coming years. Will we see teams being a bit more strategic, maybe about you know how what how soon they show their hand or if they show their hand or you know, trying to time a run or whatever, but look, we'll only know that down the line. But like I said, I just I think credit to the Clois Association for for being brave enough to try something new.

SPEAKER_04 47:18

Yeah, agree, agree, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

One more point I want to make just I guess you'll see your opinion on it. Like, you look at the under 23 championship, like the two years that's been in, like Goldwell won it last year, the kind of topic series, they end up winning the other, and same clock this year, topic series had a few of the seniors for it, and all that they end up winning the other. So you think like the temporary war for maybe next year, they might if they took it a bit more seriously, but one or two more than seniors, maybe have a right go-out could have turned them on as well, like you know, and get the younger players if they could win the other twenty-three, like and might give them a bit of success and a taste for winning the other, and it showed it, and it might help them extend it to seniors. Because like you can see what I thought for goal in court the last two years, like you know, especially Cork this year, you know, at the time they normally show where the war, like they were after being had a poor league, not that was Monster, but they took the under 23 very seriously, and looked as I said, they had a few seniors playing for them, like Vorla Callahan there, you know, and all that, and ended up one on the wheel and that's really handy. And then look, it kind of helped they to me bring the senior team as well, like the confidence and showed that they can and do it as well, like going forward.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Yeah, I think it's a really good point, and I think the fact that the two managers were over the under-23 teams is no coincidence. You know, Jer Manley was over the under-23s in Cork this year, Colin Murray was over the under-23s in Galway this year and last year. And I think I said it before last year's all-arrent. I think Cohal used that under-23 really, really well last year. He got a chance to play against the Cork sweeper system. Kira Hickey was on that under-23 team, she got to play the sweeper role against Cork. I think he used it really, really well to find a way to beat beat Cork, and I think they transferred that then into the senior, and I think it really stood to them in the senior all Ireland. Similarly, I think Germanly really needed a good performance from Cork on the under-23 this year. You know, Cork, surprisingly, for the Cork team, were probably lacking a bit of confidence after the league and the Munster Championship. You know, they needed something, and as you said, he brought out all the big guns of that under-23 championship, and they blew everyone away in front of them, they blew Kikkenny away in the final, and Kakkenny had looked really good up to that point. So he needed it to bring those players up, I suppose, to senior level, and it gave those under-23s a chance, I suppose, to experience a bit of you know, there would have been some senior players from Kikenny on that team, some senior players from Tip, probably not all, maybe fully as committed, but it got to expose them to that level, I suppose, and to get the victory. So I look at Antrim, even in the intermediate, they won the under-23B. So they have obviously used it as well. I think it can be a really, really good learning curve. Like it is a huge step from minor comoge to adult commode, be it intermediate or senior, whatever it is. So I think that under-23 does bridge the gap for counties if they use it correctly. And then if you can bring those under-23s who have either won an All-Ireland or are been competitive in All-Irel into your senior panel, it only raises the standard at the senior level as well. And you know, I suppose it replaces what would have been the second team or the intermediate team in a lot of those counties in the likes of Cork and Galway. And I'm sure it makes for very good training sessions and very good A B games, then when you can mix the whole lot together.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, Elaine. Like we don't have an under-23 team enoughly. So say in Kilkenny with the senior panel and the under-23 panel, would they were they all trained together?

SPEAKER_03 50:22

In Kilkenny, they're separate. Seamus Kelly was over the intermediate or the under-23s this year, and Jimmy Mar was over the seniors, but I know they would have been in communication to one another and they would have spoken about you know what players. Kilkenny didn't use all the senior players that were available to now on 23 level, as far as I know. The seniors, I suppose, knew they'd need them and they retained them. And maybe that's because they were in group two, so they couldn't afford to maybe have a couple of under-23s gone, whereas Cork and Galway probably could. Now I don't know, Germanly or Caldmore is thinking on it, obviously, but the fact that they could maybe rest them for a senior game if they needed to and use them in the under-23 game, whereas a team in tier two probably couldn't afford to do that because if you have a gun an under-23 who's good enough to be on the senior team, you probably need her for your senior championship game. So I know Kakenny wouldn't have used all their available players.

SPEAKER_04 51:09

Yeah, I think that's I mean, you know, you're saying there, Joe, about whether Tip and maybe Waterford could use the under-23. I think Elaine's that fitting the nail on the head there. Like it depends on your panel depth, you know what I mean? And you know, if you're if if you if you're using the under 23s in Cork or Galway, God forbid, and one of them gets gets an injury maybe in a in an under 23 game and is no longer available for the senior game. There's probably a girl of almost equal ability coming up along, you know. So it's it's a delicate balancing act, I think, for counties with smaller pools of players. I think the Corks and the Galways certainly would have the volumes to deal potentially with that. You know, I can rest here and I can, you know, can swap swap in and out in terms of quality. They'd have quite probably a a number of girls within a similar quality range. I think it's it's more difficult in uh with more limited resources, you know. You um but I think I think it's it's it's got merit, absolutely. Whether or not, for example, Waterford more so maybe than Tip, whether or not they have the actual playing pool. I mean, girls have a certain quality of a big number of, you know, between the two teams to to put out the two teams. You know, if if if a girl is kind of your star forward on your senior team at 23 or 22 or whatever, you know, she might be a massive lot, she might be a massive loss there to the Waterford senior team. Whereas in a similar situation with maybe a cork, her loss mightn't be felt as much because you'd have you'd have better quality on the senior panels. So I think it depends on the county, really. But certainly it seems to have been a huge stepping stone for a lot of those cork girls this year to find their way and to get that confidence and to say, yeah, you know, I I I've I've played against some of these girls from Galway before in under 23, and yeah, no problem. I'm not scared of them or not worried about it, you know. And at that age, I suppose you think you can take on the world anyway, so you probably don't have the fear anyway. So no, it's it's it's obviously it's no coincidence that they've they've they've they've done the backs, you know, Galway win under 23 win the iron cork, under 23 and win the iron, but I think it some of it is down to playing resources and numbers as well, and it has to be in your favour that way. I think it helps.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

Before I let you go now, I'm gonna ask one more thing. If you and this, I'm not gonna ask you for your player of the year, I'm just gonna ask you who contender for player of the year made me this here. Because it's too hard to pick a player of the year, so I bet you're gonna have to give me enough foreign and all it so if we just even aim a few players for being for player to year contention, like and look at you're looking at like the circle McCartney anyway as a start, anyway. That's right. One player anyway, definitely aiming contention anyway.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

Yeah, usually the the uh the yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, for for Galway, I suppose, you know, Carrie Dolan probably in the mixing. Neve McCleek was absolutely outstanding all year. Maybe Wassa was promised in the final as maybe we might have thought, but Kira Hickey, obviously, as well. Yeah, Alaine, don't know. You've got a few names there.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

Some of the Galway contenders anyway. Laura Hayes had probably put her in that in that category with Cork as well. I thought Millie Condon had a massive year. I know she's a young player and probably more of a young player of the year, maybe stand out, but I thought she was really, really good all for Cork. And if you're looking outside that, maybe if you're looking at, you know, Tom Marid Everson for Tip, maybe didn't have her best error in the semi-final, but I thought up to that point had been really, really strong for Tip throughout the year. From a Kilkenny point of view, Eva Pendergast was probably, you know, Sarah Barco had a good year, a couple of goals. Eve Pendergast, you know, nailed her freeze, probably could have contributed maybe a little bit more from play throughout the year, but you know, a solid performer for them. Who else are we looking at? Yeah, but look, usually the player of the year, I suppose, is going to come from the All Ireland champions, and certainly the contenders will probably come from the All-Ireland finalists. So, you know, you're probably looking at Cork and Galway, and I think we've we've hit Derville Higgins, I think, had a good year for Galway as well as she had over the last couple of years. But um, yeah, no, I think Zurica McCartin was probably the standout for, you know, she was player of the match, I think, the day they played Waterford Jen and Parkie Ring. I did the commentary on that that day, and she was really good. That you know, scored a couple of those stagnant, significant points for from herself as well, her trademark points, and to get four of them from playing an Island final with a broken finger. I think she's deserving of it for that reason alone. I think so.

SPEAKER_04 55:07

And one point was better than the next, like it was like the quality of the points. They were just fantastic. If hurlers were doing it, we'd be raving about it over the shoulder, and like they're not just landing on top of the net, they are hitting the ball stopper well behind, you know. I thought you'd say, Well, that was a great point. And next 10 minutes later, she'd hit a better one, you know. You had so much to admire, and so much to admire about her attitude and the way she puts herself about, you know, in for the team, you know, sliding along on her knees there. I saw her in the All-Inland semi-final, like could have got hurt, like, you know, really hurt to try and win a ball and just wonderful, wonderful attitude. And yeah, I think she's definitely a hot favourite, I'd say.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

And like even her work rate, I know like we spike speak about her point scoring, and that's obviously class, like, but the work rate, the runs that she makes off the ball. I think the the space that she creates for Orla Callan and Amy O'Connor inside as well, her willingness to track back the field, you know, she got hooks and blocks in that all-arden semi-final that you know you shouldn't expect a full forward to be getting because you know they don't you don't normally see it, but she tracked back, she turned them over time and time again, and and even her point score, and then like the points are so out of this world that we kind of get taken away. But the touch, even her touch is phenomenal to get them into her hand under the pressure that she does, like, and she's always closely marked, she's a marked player, but like it's never in any doubt as to whether she's going to get it into her hand or not. It's nearly always in her hand. And similarly, as you said earlier, if she doesn't get it straight into her hands, then there's no way that the defender is clearing it either because she's a real handful for them. You know, she'll she'll hold it up until the support comes. But her vision, even the ball back out to Amy O'Connor in the semifinal for Amy O'Connor's goal, like to to create that from a like what looked like a pretty much dead ball down at the corner flag, like to have the vision to see it first of all, and then to have the Harlan to be able to put the pass in. Yeah, no, I think she she showed this year that she really has it on. I think Cork really felt her loss in, you know, she wasn't there in the early parts of the league. She was had an extended run with the bars in the club championship, and then she was maybe going travelling for a while. And look, I think once she got back into Cork, I think you know her confidence starts to soar and Cork starts to click. And I think she's a key part to to why the Odolphic Cup is back to underly this year.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

Yeah, and I wouldn't just spoil one fine, but like I I think it's well, it's it's it's wonderful to see a player like in this, you know. I suppose in the game now everything's about you know pace, running, running, running, running power, running power. And that wouldn't necessarily be the strongest part of her game, but she's so unselfish and she's so clever with her use of the ball. And I think she complements the two girls either side of her. And I think maybe if you look at the goalway, you know, you had maybe at Even Island, you've got Aelish O'Reilly and Kriva Kelly, you know, they're probably three similar type players, and I think that's where Sorka is such an asset. Like she is just she's that different player, you know, she can, you know, she she can do things differently, she's not afraid to put herself about, and she's very, very um unselfish. I think you know, you all know what she's going to do, you know, but you still can't stop her, like, you know, and she's not relying on taking players on, zipping past players, you know, she she's such a rounded, she has such a rounded game that I think it's absolutely fantastic. And I think that will stand to her because I suppose as you get older, if you have that bit, if you were relying on your pace all the time and that starts to go, you have you, you know, you're you're at a deficit, but um, she will have a long, long career with the assets that she's got because I think she's a she's fantastic and uh a great team player, I'd say, and I'd say very popular among the group as well.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Actually, I asked me constantly before we go. Like that's her that was her 11th dollar in a final, like and she won seven of them, and she's 10 all Ireland. I was trying to after the game, done an interview, and she was at the 100 after 10th Ireland overall with the 12th on the county. She had to be sure that she got that in a thing. But so it's remarkable achievement, like you know, being 11 finals to county levels and win seven of them, like you know, and come back this year as well after just look at in a relable, like you know, really is matchfully, especially at a rage now that she tried to six down and all a lot of people might have just given up for the year, like it just took the year out, but not Ashley knows she came back and fairness to her, like and it is from achievement like in fairness to her.

SPEAKER_03 59:04

Yeah, when you think of the players that she's seen come and go from that cockpit, you know, she's probably seen maybe three generations of cock success, if that makes sense. You know, there was probably that the good team that she was on early, there was a couple of years in the middle. Now they were never too far away from all earnings, they've always been contenders, like, but she's probably seen a lot of players come and go. And I think I heard an interview with her before they all earned that said, you know, she didn't even know a lot of these new younger players coming in. Like when you think she's 36, like and some of them are probably only 20, you know, that's a huge, huge age. And I suppose Corpus is such a big county if you're not playing them regularly at you know, if they're not at the same grade as you're not seeing these players. So even to be to do that, but I think just to come back this year after the injury she had. Like, I was watching that game in Fresh for the day, she dislocated her elbow or broke her elbow, and like it looked terrific. And you know, when you hear about it afterwards, the details of it, like, you know, it's it could have been a career ending, let alone a season ending, it could have been a career-ending injury. And for her to rehab that the way she did just shows, I suppose, that why she has been around the cork scene for how long and how important she is to them. And then, you know, to rehab that, to get back in time for some game time of the Waterford game, and then to do a hamstring, as we subsequently found out, some calf injury as well before the All-Ireland semi-final and final, and to go on and to play 60 minutes in the All-Ireland final, like it's just phenomenal for her, you know. And you know, probably, as you said, maybe hasn't didn't have the same impact in the All-Ireland as she would have had in previous ones, but she was still a huge, huge influence around the place, and I'm sure a huge influence in the dress room for a lot of those younger girls. You know, a lot of them would have probably looked up to her when they started their comoge careers, she was probably an idol of them. So to be in the dress room with her, I'm sure was massive for them and to have her influence. And I think there's a lovely clip afterwards of herself and Ava Fitzgerald having a big embrace in the middle of Crow Park, and you're just thinking, God, like, you know, when Ashing was starting out her career, Ava Fitzgerald was probably at the under-six training below in, you know, in Sardis. So that's the difference there. But for them to bridge that gap, I think, and to get over the line together as a team on Sunday, she kind of just epitomized, I think, what was everything about Cork this year, regardless of what was thrown at them, they just weren't going to be beaten when championship came around.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:05

I mean, she's just she's just she's a warrior, Joe, you know, she really is, like in every sense of the word. You know, when things are going bad, she's there, she's she's you know, shouting the instructions. And I just thought there was a huge sense of contentment with her on Sunday after she had won. You know, I re it was almost like I know not a relief, but I just looked really content, really, you know, delight obviously with the win. And uh I mean, she's every county in Ireland would take Ashley Thompson, and as uh as Elaine said, she would have been a role model to so many of those players, and they would respect, you know, if she told them to run to the far sideline, you know, they would do it without without even objecting or even questioning it, you know. And with all those injuries, I mean any other I'd say any other a lot of other players would just say no, like I mean, I I I won't be able to get through this or whatever. But I'd say if Germany even said to Ashling, listen, maybe we we won't start her, we'll bring you on or something like that. I'd say that would have been an interesting conversation. But she's she's an opposite worry and to f like she finished the game as well. You know, like I think I think she finished the game, you know, like with injuries, like held together, like realistically. I mean the mental strength of that to punish yourself like that. But I just thought at the very end it was lovely. She just looked so content, so you know, you know, not not maybe the overjoyed, you know, roaring at chat, just such a contentment, and it was so deserving of someone that's put in so much for Komogi. And you know, she'll she'll need a bit of time to recover from all those injuries, but I would not be one bit surprised if she was back there again next year at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

She says she'll do an interview with someone else, I'll just listen to it. And they asked her about the retirement question. She said if she was to make the decision now straight away after the match, she probably would, but she said she'd think about it anyway and think she'll see anyway. So, you know, she said she'll screw it up. She said she'll see anywhere, and but we're not waiting seeing that one anyway. But anyway, just coming up after this. We had an interview with Donbert Ashton Thompson and also one with Millie Condon. So I'll come up just after we're finished. So um, look, this will be the last podcast now for a few weeks. I've got to take a break for a few weeks since now the chapter is over. But we'll be back in a few weeks with some sort of website. I'm not sure what it'll be yet, but just take a new book. Don't forget if you listen to whatever you're listening to is on whether Spotify, Amazon, or after give us a five-star review and a nice leave a nice comment and just so that you're enjoying the podcast. So and don't forget, you can find us on Instagram at TalkCology Podcast, or also next at Talking Cology Podcast, and you can email us at talkingologypodcast at gmail.com if there's anything you want to get to touch with us. Or if there's anything you want to discuss in future episodes coming up over the next coin or anything, you know, it's all the comments every time the special. If there's anything you want to talk about, we can do that if you get touch on us. But for now, anyway, it ain't it in. I'll let you go now and look once again. Thanks, William, for coming on and as always it's a pleasure to have you all you on. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Joe. For now, you leave it at that and I thought be back again in a few weeks. And lastly, how are you feeling now after that? Not long after the game. Holler and champion again.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

Oh, what a feeling. What an incredible year it's been. What an incredible group, girls. Um, you know, it's it's actually quite similar. We went back to 2017, it was quite a similar um similar season in the sense that we lost so many players, like you're talking 14-15 off last year's panel and seven from that starting 15, and just you know, facing relegation in the league, as I said earlier in the week, knocked out of the first round of Munster Championship to come back, win all our group games. Brilliant semi-final, in particular the first half, and then you know, six points up going in there in the second half against Galway. Yes, it came down to the wire, but I had no fear of getting over the line, and they did just that, which is exceptional.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

As you said, kind of they were coming through at you, but you didn't see the goal, which was key. Like, and like Joey was saying that if you get the clean sheet, you'd win the game and all that. So, as you said, you weren't really worried either, coming because you suppose you just had the confidence in yourself, really, did you that you could haul out?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:10

Yeah, exactly. And I think when that first goal went in in particular, I was like, Oh, it's game on here now, you know. To be honest, the the losing was never in doubt because look, at the end of the day, we were only two points down going in in the first half at half time, and we were only in second gear, so we knew there was a massive second half in us if we just tried to open up the space inside. You know, there was a couple of changes there at halftime. I sat in Kirihiki that kind of took that roadblock, I guess, out of the game. And then Millie Condon was brilliant when she went out to midfield, but that gave Sears McCarthy and M Murphy the opportunity to run the ball, and you know, it gave us some room, I suppose, in the inside line, the full forward line, who were all so brilliant. So, look, the uh the opportunities opened up, and Sears McCarthy and Orla Catalan were just exceptional in their finish.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:57

Obviously, it was another great game between yourselves and all that. Really taken comogue to another level. The two teams are there that first great rivalry over the last few years. So, like just what it's like to be part of that rivalry, and like you know, just and going diff finding different levels every year by the looks of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:13

Every year it just seems to be getting better and better. That's it. And look, I suppose that's the thing. It's like I suppose when you think about the likes of Tipperary, Kilkenny, Waterford, and I guess I suppose beating a Cork team in particular, their chances probably this season of any. And I'm just repeating what the outside noise was have a habit of saying this year, but look, we were we were going nowhere. I said it earlier that you know once you don the pitch in Cork, you know, there's nothing less accepted than 120%. And those girls have worked exceptionally hard over the season. Brand new faces came in on that squad and just bought in straight away. You didn't have to tell them twice in terms of their work rate and their effort. And in fairness, the management did an exceptional job in terms of gelling the group and giving us that belief, I guess. And those girls just worked, you know, from game to game. I suppose their confidence just grew in abundance. But look, as you said, God, we had a couple of, I suppose, that dropped off the panel as well from last year. But look, they still had the experience in abundance, we still had experience across across every line. But yeah, look, they've been phenomenal champions too in recent years, and we know each other inside out, and you know, on other final day, it's never going to be anything less than an absolute battle to the bitter end. Like there's no such thing as a six-point victory when it comes to Kark and Galbay it's always one or two points, which you know, there it was again. And look, we had the luck on our side.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

I was chatting to you the other day at the launch day. You said seven sounds a lot better than six. Now that you've actually had it of it, does it feel better now?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

Oh god, it does. It feels unreal, you know. I was only thinking thereafter I won my first All Ireland here in Crock Park. First time I ever donned a pitch at my club, Milford. So I was fortunate enough to win ten senior, that's true, true at my club, and seven McCark, and seven absolutely sounds better than six, but ten also sounds better than seven. So look, what an unbelievable career. If you told me this is the start of my career, this is going to be it. I take your hand off. So I'm extremely fortunate. But look, I can always say that it's the coaches, the managements, the people, everybody that I've been involved with, the generations that have gone, the players that have gone. It's just I'm, you know, as I said, extremely fortunate to be in the position I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Yeah, and I'll let you go off there and I'm gonna try to celebrate it anyway. Congratulations and very well done.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

Thanks so much, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:31

How are you feeling there after that now, All Ireland champions?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

No, I don't think I I that can't sink into my head now. I actually don't even know what happened out there, it's gonna take a while. But no, buzzing, absolutely buzzing, best thing that you could ask for.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Like obviously goal came back at you hard there at the end, but you just about managed to hold out. So what would the relief must have been must have been some relief at the end when the final whistle went?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

Yeah, I think those two goals that we got probably were the breaking point of it and kind of gave us a cushion. But they were coming back at us, so it's just no goals, no goals. Jerusal said inside in the room that if we didn't concede any goals, we'd win the match. So I suppose we just had to put the pressure on when they were going for goal and just cut them out.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

Obviously, look the year and the whole starting off as well wasn't the best like in the league and the months of championship, but as you said, you had that seven-week training block and you came back then for the championship first game we had to go when you were immense there and you took it on from there, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:22

Yeah, no, the league didn't go quite right for us, but we were trying our best to do the whole thing. Like there wasn't for the want of training that we were losing the league. It was hard work and it was gonna take a while. And as I said, those seven weeks training block that we had between the league and the championship really, really paid off at us. And the like, I don't know, the progression that we had in that seven weeks was uh I like insane.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:46

And honestly, look from last year losing to to go that must have been a big motivation factor for you going into the final today.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

Yeah, I suppose if we left it straight from last year and coming in from the league match, that championship match definitely stood to us because it kinda it proved to us that we could do it, so it gave us a bit of a belief there and I thought no, we knew we could do it if we just put our minds to it and there'd be no stopping us. Thanks a million. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thank you.