Episode 8 - Navigating Conflict in Agriculture Through Mediation

In this episode, host Ahlishia Shipley talks with Kiley Fleming, Executive Director of the Iowa Mediation Service and Chair of the Coalition of Agricultural Mediation Programs (CAMP), about the role of agricultural mediation in helping producers navigate conflict, communication challenges, and difficult decisions. Kiley explains how mediation works, discusses common agricultural disputes, and shares practical strategies for managing tension within farm operations and families. Listeners will also learn how to connect with certified mediation programs and resources through CAMP and AgFTAP.

Transcript

00;00;00;21 - 00;00;46;19
Ahlishia Shipley
You're listening to the FARM Champion podcast, where we champion farmer and rancher success. In each episode, we sit down with a FARM Champion, a trusted professional committed to helping producers navigate the business side of agriculture. If you're a farmer, rancher or agricultural professional working to build a stronger, more resilient operation, you're in the right place.

00;00;46;21 - 00;01;18;00
Ahlishia Shipley
I’m Dr. Ahlishia Shipley, your host. So today we're discussing the topic that is incredibly important in the agricultural world, but not often talked about enough, which is agricultural mediation and conflict resolution. As you listeners are aware, farming in ranching involves high pressure decisions, financial stress, family dynamics, land issues, relationships with lenders, and increasingly complex business environments. And given this context, inevitably disagreements and disputes will arise.

00;01;18;01 - 00;01;52;28
Ahlishia Shipley
But having the tools and support systems and the right people with you to navigate these situations can make all the difference. And so today, to share more about ag mediation and its value is Dr. Kylie Fleming. Now I'm going to share more about Dr. Fleming's background. And it is very impressive and dynamic. So just stay with me. So right now, Dr. Fleming serves as the executive director of the Iowa Mediation Service and also a strategic management expert, among many other things, with Iowa State University Center for Agricultural Law and Taxation.

00;01;53;01 - 00;02;17;27
Ahlishia Shipley
She also serves as the chair of the Coalition of Agricultural Mediation Programs, also known as CAMP, and she is the founder of Outside In, a firm focused on individual and organizational transformation through coaching, group consulting, training, and conflict resolution. And so, Dr. Fleming, thank you so much for joining me today.

00;02;17;29 - 00;02;26;28
Kiley Fleming
Well, thank you for having me. And you're welcome to call me Kylie. And I appreciate the opportunity to be here. So cannot wait for us to speak.

00;02;27;00 - 00;02;54;26
Ahlishia Shipley
Okay. Fantastic. Kylie, I appreciate that. All right, so as I just mentioned, you really have a dynamic professional background spanning organizational development, all the waves of mediation in agriculture. And so I know that our listeners really like to learn more about your background and your professional journey in the path that led you from organizational development into conflict resolution and ag mediation.

00;02;54;28 - 00;03;24;21
Kiley Fleming
I've had an interesting journey, to say the least. I was somebody, you know, fairly similar to a lot of college students who didn't know exactly what I was going to be doing with myself, but I knew I wanted to work with with people. And throughout that process, I landed on human resources. And so my background had primarily been in recruitment and in HR management practices, and I ended up working at a manufacturing company.

00;03;24;21 - 00;03;49;12
Kiley Fleming
In the process of working in manufacturing, I started doing union contracts. In union contracts are right for things about conflict and settlements and discovered that I really loved it. And during the time I had found it outside in, and the idea was to act as a consultant for people who needed a voice. Really, all I believe I do is create language around people's needs.

00;03;49;17 - 00;04;13;25
Kiley Fleming
And so I was hired at that time to help Iowa Mediation Service with some strategic planning, and eventually found that this was probably no other way to say it. My higher colleague. So I've been with IMS for 12 years, and it really has worked well together. Being a native of Iowa, where agriculture is so strong and having a background in human resources.

00;04;13;26 - 00;04;35;06
Kiley Fleming
I eventually did go and get my doctorate from Creighton. So I jokingly like to say that I keep people from having to use court systems. And all kidding aside, courts are wonderful, and there's also other ways to do it. And so my job is to help give a platform for the farming world to have a voice when they have conflicts.

00;04;35;09 - 00;04;57;01
Ahlishia Shipley
That's that stands wonderful and a very fascinating way to get to where you are today. One of the things that I took from what you just said is that you feel like your main role is creating language around people's needs and giving them a voice. And I guess in the conflict resolution world, you're giving both sides of ways, which is very important to getting conflicts resolved.

00;04;57;01 - 00;05;20;18
Ahlishia Shipley
So now that we know more about you. Let's dig into agricultural mediation and have a life was to start with the basics, because may be a new concept for some of our listeners, or just maybe an exploratory process for them. So could you provide a simple overview of what ag mediation actually is, and the type of situations where it might be helpful for farmers and ranchers?

00;05;20;19 - 00;05;49;07
Kiley Fleming
So mediation, regardless of the field that it's in, is about using a neutral practitioner. And the neutral practitioner is there to help guide a process. So they're very skilled and they're not neutral about the process. Rather they are neutral about the dynamics that the parties are bringing forward. Because I'm a really big believer that I am the expert of the mediation process and the farmers and ranchers and creditors or whoever is at the table.

00;05;49;07 - 00;06;15;24
Kiley Fleming
They are the expert of their lives and their lived experiences. And so what makes mediation beautiful, compared to lots of other things, is that it is a voluntary process. And by that I mean, even if the court has mandated that somebody go to mediation, once you're at the mediation table, it's a voluntary process because it believes that the parties at the table eventually will find what is best for them.

00;06;15;24 - 00;06;45;10
Kiley Fleming
And so the mediator is simply taking those words and trying to create an agreement that creates a shared understanding. And so, you know, the sky is really the limit when it comes to mediation. It could be a neighbor dispute. It could have to do with partitioning. It could have to do with water conservation easements, adverse decisions. If you are in lending programs, you could be at the end of a forbearance and now you're looking at some kind of foreclosure.

00;06;45;10 - 00;07;13;26
Kiley Fleming
And then I'm also going to say you, as a farmer or rancher, might need mediation for something that's not aggregated. It could be a divorce because divorce can impact our assets. And what happens with that? Right. And also we know that if we are under the stress of any kind of conflict, it impacts everything we do. And so we tell people it does not have to be just like a debtor and a creditor going in conversation with each other.

00;07;13;26 - 00;07;28;22
Kiley Fleming
So really be big and expansive and ask yourself if this is a conflict that I would like to have a different outcome for. Perhaps a neutral can help me get there, and the avenues are endless and wide that way.

00;07;28;23 - 00;07;52;19
Ahlishia Shipley
Thank you. So I love that it is voluntary, which means both parties have made a choice to participate fully in the process, which is very important. So thank you for going over some of the kind of common conflicts and stressors that in agriculture that may lead to kind of needing mediation to work through. So now I'm going to skip over to how the actual mediation process works.

00;07;52;19 - 00;08;15;23
Ahlishia Shipley
And so for producers who have never experienced mediation before, I think it would be helpful to understand what the process actually looks and feels like. So, for example, let's say I am a producer dealing with a very difficult situation, and maybe there's tension within my family around the future of my farm, a disagreement with a lender or a conflict connected to a USC program decision.

00;08;15;23 - 00;08;37;03
Ahlishia Shipley
And so I listen to you on this podcast and realize mediation might be an option. And I found a certified mediation program in my state. So what would happen next? Like, what would that process look like for me as a producer? You know, picking up the first, making the first phone call and going through the mediation process itself, I think that would be helpful for us to hear.

00;08;37;04 - 00;09;00;11
Kiley Fleming
And one thing I'm going to add is that perhaps you're listening and you are on the other side, the business side, that you are an aid lender, a creditor, you also can reach out. So essentially whoever is reaching out is trying to get parties to the table. So that first intake call is letting the organization who they've called know that there is an interest.

00;09;00;11 - 00;09;20;03
Kiley Fleming
So there's going to be what's called an intake process. And so by that, we're just trying to figure out in the nuts and bolts of it. What is at play. Because oftentimes in the farming world it's not that linear. There can be lots of things. So a farm succession plan could make a difference on a loan. And the loan could make a difference on x, y, z.

00;09;20;03 - 00;09;44;24
Kiley Fleming
And so we're trying to figure out what needs to actually be mediated. Because sometimes we'll find we're actually doing a mediation within a mediation. So that intake is to just get the basic information. It's also to gauge people's preparedness. So the person who is taking those phone calls or zooms or however they're doing it, they're going to be asking questions because they know that for the parties at the table, preparation is key.

00;09;44;24 - 00;10;11;00
Kiley Fleming
So they could be asking questions like, have you reconciled accounts? Do you have lease agreements in place? You know, where are you at in in your cycle, in the seasons, etc.. And they're asking that because if there's missing information, the perfect time for the parties to gather it is prior to getting to the table, because the more information that you can come at the table, the more likely you can make an empowered decision.

00;10;11;00 - 00;10;34;27
Kiley Fleming
And so if we're working with a bank, we are going to say, okay, what are the loans that are in default? What are the low numbers? What is the dollar amount. And we're doing that because we know that if people have to quickly brainstorm during conflict situations, that can be hard for some people. So the more preparation they can do beforehand, the more rooted and grounded they're going to be.

00;10;34;27 - 00;10;52;24
Kiley Fleming
Because we know that it's it's stressful to have to talk through it. So that's going to be the first thing. Then once we get people at the table and the beauty of the world we live in today is that when we say table, it could be a conference call, it could be a zoom, it could actually be an in-person at a table.

00;10;52;24 - 00;11;27;25
Kiley Fleming
The mediator is going to lay out their ground rules. And it's going to be what I would say, just things we do to be kind to one another. We're going to not interrupt. Right. Or here's how breaks are going to be. And that's just to set the tone and the stage, because there's always the perception of power when there comes to conflict and whether or not we are operating under that, the mediator in their intake and in those introductory statements can help flatten and level out some of those power disparities, because they're sitting there to link communication.

00;11;27;25 - 00;11;48;02
Kiley Fleming
Then in the mediation, we're going to start with opening statements. Just basically it royals down to this. Why are we here today? And for people who get nervous about speaking or communicating, this is why mediation is so great, because it's intended to be organic and flexible. And the great thing is you can stop the process anytime you want you because it is voluntary.

00;11;48;02 - 00;12;08;08
Kiley Fleming
If you feel confused, you can ask for breaks. You could do a multi session mediation. Maybe you need a day and you need to come back. The great thing is a mediator who is skilled in what they're doing. They're going to meet you where they're at. So just picture that person who's sitting there as a neutral, who's there to be a sponge.

00;12;08;08 - 00;12;26;21
Kiley Fleming
I tell people that when I sit there, I'm a blank slate. I'm a sponge. I'm just gathering information. No scary titles, just there. Because I know that nobody knows your story better than you. That's all you're there for. And now I'm going to give the same opportunity to the other people at the table. What's their story? What's their perspective?

00;12;26;21 - 00;12;52;01
Kiley Fleming
And then we will go through a process of where we do shared conversation and dialog, and then hopefully we will get to what is called the agreement writing. And that is where we write up the agreements. And what that does is it creates formalized clarity so everybody knows what the next steps are going to be. And if we don't get to that point, then we're at what's called mediation impasse.

00;12;52;02 - 00;13;13;07
Kiley Fleming
And that means that we didn't get to the point of a decision. And the mediator is going to tell you what that means, because no decision is still a decision. And so we need to know that there's never a scenario in life where a choice isn't going to have some kind of outcome. So whether it gets an agreement or you walk away and there's no agreement, the mediator is going to help reality test that.

00;13;13;07 - 00;13;46;04
Kiley Fleming
And then at the end, hopefully we have a document in hand. And that document in most worlds, like in the Coalition of Agricultural Mediation Programs, we're looking for agreement rates of 70% or higher. So that means that the vast majority of time, if you're sitting at the table with the mediator and agreements possible. And so that should hopefully have people have a positive sense that mediation can work now, because the reason why that's important is that once it is memorialized into a formal document, then it is legally binding.

00;13;46;04 - 00;14;08;22
Kiley Fleming
So everything is voluntary and organic and ebb and flow until we get to the agreement writing. And that's why it's so important that the agreement is written in terms that people understand, that people can follow, that people can agree to, because that's your time to ask any clarifying questions, because once we write the agreement, it is a contract like any other contract.

00;14;08;22 - 00;14;30;22
Kiley Fleming
And so it blends the world. I say it's like counseling light meets court system meets therapy meets, you know, all all of the things together. And and that's why it really is important that when you lead with whatever you have done, that you know, why you have chosen to do what you have chosen to do. And then then the mediation is successful.

00;14;30;26 - 00;15;04;08
Ahlishia Shipley
That was an amazing overview of what that process would look like. And so let me make sure that that I understand is that once a producer or a creditor or lender, as you mentioned, because either party can can start the process, there's an intake or you clarify the issue exactly what we're looking at. And then kind of like a preparation process so that you are gathering all the details that you need to make the mediation as, as informed as possible, and then setting rules for engagement and establishing shared power at the table.

00;15;04;08 - 00;15;32;20
Ahlishia Shipley
And then also in a setting. It could be any setting that works well for for all the parties and then engaging in shared dialog that hopefully will lead to discussion around an agreement which leads to a legally binding agreement that is understandable by all parties, and that would be a successful mediation. There also could be a mediation impasse where there is not an agreement reached, and then at any point during all of this, either party can walk away.

00;15;32;21 - 00;15;35;26
Ahlishia Shipley
Is that the long and short of the process?

00;15;35;28 - 00;16;06;15
Kiley Fleming
Absolutely. And you could be a mediator because you have articulated that that very well, that mirroring and reframing back. Actually, that practice of what you did is exactly what you would see in a mediation. When you get to the agreement writing process, the mediator should be echoing it back and getting a chance for clarification. And we have the strong view here that even if people walk away with no agreement, if they have a foundational understanding of why the choices were made, that's not a failure.

00;16;06;15 - 00;16;27;10
Kiley Fleming
And so really, there is such little risk in going into a mediation, because the only thing that's at play is your ability to communicate. And when we communicate, then we have understanding. And when we have understanding, we have options. And when we have options that we can exercise our control and our power. That's really all it is.

00;16;27;11 - 00;16;42;15
Ahlishia Shipley
That's that's amazing. Even by participating in the process, that you can also pick things up about just communication skills in general. Excellent. Thank you so much. So awesome. Before I move on, what are some common misconceptions about the mediation process?

00;16;42;17 - 00;17;06;04
Kiley Fleming
One misconception is that some people believe it's like arbitration. And so arbitration is when a judge or a decider comes in because there is a conflict they get to put a rubber stamp on. This is what you shall do. And those are good and they're valuable and they have their place in the ad world. Keep in mind, though, that mediation really is centered around your voice.

00;17;06;04 - 00;17;29;00
Kiley Fleming
I think that that is something that people, they feel it's going to be more stressful than it needs to be. The other thing is that if you read a lot of literature, it'll say that mediation is conflict resolution as you had outlined it. I'd like to tell people that mediation is called conflict management, because if you manage something, it says that that's just part of life.

00;17;29;01 - 00;17;51;08
Kiley Fleming
It's an opportunity to manage and have it move as you want it to. That takes the pressure off, because if you use the word resolution, it feels like it's it's a win or a loss. And I say we're trying to help people find win wins or less lose. And sometimes people will leave and feel a little bit uncomfortable about a decision.

00;17;51;08 - 00;18;02;25
Kiley Fleming
But a little loss is still far better than a catastrophic loss. And so to keep it in perspective that that we are here to help manage whatever that situation is.

00;18;02;26 - 00;18;42;21
Ahlishia Shipley
That is a great distinction and insight. Conflict management, looking at it from a management lens rather than a resolution lens, because there may not be a resolution. There could be. But you know, your purpose and mediators purpose is to manage the conflict that is happening. So that is an important point. Thank you. Thank you for that. So I wanted to move into kind of like what is available out there for producers, lenders, those folks who are, you know, in the middle of some type of conflict or dispute to actually engage in mediation and learn more about it.

00;18;42;21 - 00;19;07;04
Ahlishia Shipley
And so your work, Kiley, extends beyond Iowa through your leadership at the Coalition of Agricultural Mediation Programs, or Camp. So I want to focus on that. And you, you currently serve as the chair. So can you share more about camp in the role of state certified mediation programs and the role that they play nationally, and how they can support producers across the country?

00;19;07;05 - 00;19;38;15
Kiley Fleming
So 45 of the 50 states are part of camp, or that coalition was founded back in 1988 because as many of the farmers who were listening know, that that was a time of high stress for the ag community, right? Same with ranchers. So 45 states participate. And what this means is that they are the sole provider of the state designated agricultural mediation program, as defined by the USDA and the farm bill for that state.

00;19;38;15 - 00;20;03;16
Kiley Fleming
And the great thing about that is that it means, let's say you're calling from from Arkansas, or you're calling from Missouri or you're calling from Virginia. I'm just going to throw out states. Those states participate just like Iowa does. And there is a agency within that state that the government has said that they are trained and certified specifically to deal with ag mediation issues.

00;20;03;16 - 00;20;27;16
Kiley Fleming
And so the USDA requires certain things of us, like in the state of Iowa, we go through 32 hours of specialized training where mental health first aid certified. So if you are in one of the 45 states, the great thing is if you go to the website and you go to the Coalition of Agricultural Mediation Program website, it's going to pull up a map, and the map is going to highlight the 45 states that participate.

00;20;27;16 - 00;20;59;22
Kiley Fleming
If you click on it, it is going to tell you the agency that the USDA has recognized, and within that, it is going to give you the name of a contact and phone number and email. And the reason why that's important is the farm bill was written such that there are some standard practices that can be mediated, but also states get some of their own discretion because their Secretary of Ag can say, you know what, I might have a really important thing on grains, but we need to focus on forestry or water conservation, whatever it is.

00;20;59;22 - 00;21;19;24
Kiley Fleming
The beauty of the way the Farm Bill is written is that your individual state program should be designed to meet the needs that are unique for your demographics. So when you reach out, they'll have an intake process. And so for those who are watching right now, we're trying to see what's going to happen with the farm bill and and how that is unfolding.

00;21;19;24 - 00;21;49;25
Kiley Fleming
Some of the great things is that when we started in 1988, we were debtor creditor mediations. That was it. And then it's expanded. Now you can have issues surrounding organic farming, adverse decisions, nuisance care and feeding of animals. It could be farmed. Succession planning is specifically written as a service that these entities can provide to. So really just think what is impacting my ability to have the operation that I want it to have.

00;21;49;26 - 00;22;01;18
Kiley Fleming
And if there is a barrier there, consider going to your respective organization and see what they can do, because you will be surprised. They will have your state covered for you on lots of lots of issues.

00;22;01;20 - 00;22;24;14
Ahlishia Shipley
And so what what I'm hearing from you is, since that farm bill, you know, following the farm crisis in the 80s, is that mediation has undergone an evolution just in the same way that agriculture has, as, you know, the needs and the situations and, you know, just different areas of agriculture have expanded that mediation, you know, will reflect that across the nation.

00;22;24;14 - 00;22;58;22
Ahlishia Shipley
And, you know, more specifically the states as well, because they can tailor their programs. So that's excellent information. I appreciate that. And our listeners, we will add the camp website in the that goes out about this podcast episode. And also for our listeners, you can access a resource on the AG Tap website called Agricultural Mediation in the Southeastern United States, and it provides an overview of ag mediation, explains how the process works, and connects producers to a listing of certified mediation programs across the region.

00;22;58;22 - 00;23;30;12
Ahlishia Shipley
So I appreciate that. I want to go down to a little bit of a personal level with respect to mediation. One of the things we like to highlight on the podcast is the impact of trusted guidance and support, and what it can have on producers actually through elevating farmer success stories. And so for you, Kylie, can you share an example or a story that illustrates the impact mediation can have on a farm family, a business, or a rural community?

00;23;30;15 - 00;23;55;07
Kiley Fleming
And again, what makes mediation so great is that because it creates a safe space. So I'm going to use some vague stories, because we would want any listener to know that if they are using any of the services across the United States, their stories are meant to be kept confidential. Okay, so with that being said, one thing that resonates and this isn't so much an individual success story as it is something that I have seen transcend.

00;23;55;08 - 00;24;20;26
Kiley Fleming
Is that what makes farming a different business than a lot of other businesses is that it is not a 9 to 5, and it is not something that just closes down on the weekends. And so oftentimes you will work with farmers who are like, I don't know why it's so hard to make this business decision. And I'm like, well, of course it's difficult because you're wearing a family hat at the same time you're wearing the farming hat.

00;24;20;26 - 00;24;46;18
Kiley Fleming
And so the very place that you are farming is also where you're raising children. It's also where. So that's your daycare, your accounting center. So one of the successes that I have seen specifically in in Iowa, because we are a gerontology heavy state, which means that people are aging out. And we know that the vast majority of farmers and ranchers know that they need to have a farm succession plan.

00;24;46;18 - 00;25;09;18
Kiley Fleming
But it's just like, we know we need to exercise or we know we need to eat well. Just because we know something doesn't mean that we do it. And so most farmers and ranchers actually don't have true farm succession plans in place. And what I have come to find is that it is because people have a hard time differentiating fair versus equal.

00;25;09;18 - 00;25;32;07
Kiley Fleming
So in other words, they may want the farm to go, be passed down wholly. Keep the legacy. They also want everybody to be happy about the decisions, and they also want it to feel there. Which means, like in my family, I I'm one of three kids. Well, does fair mean a third, a third, a third, or does fair mean that you look at things like sweat equity?

00;25;32;08 - 00;25;55;16
Kiley Fleming
I bet there are listeners out there where the workload has not been the same among siblings or aunts and uncles or whomever. And what I have seen some of the best success in the work that I do is people understanding that sometimes we have to make decisions where a sting in the beginning is better than a burn in the end.

00;25;55;17 - 00;26;18;21
Kiley Fleming
So I'll hear people say, well, I'm just going to wait until I pass away, and then I'll let the children decide, you could do that, but that's going to be a burn in the end, because that's still a choice, right? And so sitting with people, some of the greatest successes that I have seen, even in lending practices, is to say this decision, how does it impact the next generation or how the operation will or won't work?

00;26;18;22 - 00;26;55;04
Kiley Fleming
Do you actually know who the successor is? Do you actually know who holds access to your finances? In the ag and ranching world, it is very common for financial information not to be widely shared among family members. Maybe a singular person is the one who has access to the checkbook, so just having people understand their actual cash flows, really knowing what input costs are, knowing, like how do variables like health insurance actually impact your ability to extend your line of credit, or the viability of the farm for the future?

00;26;55;05 - 00;27;25;01
Kiley Fleming
Those are, I consider to be really the big ones, because when you can make those kind of decisions, you're helping not just today's operation, but the next year and the next year and the next generation. Because as we know, energy begets energy. So one positive decision helps another one. So for me, we help give language where it is hard because families were families before they were business partners.

00;27;25;03 - 00;27;37;21
Kiley Fleming
Right. So one day you're a sibling, the next day you're a business partner. Well, how do you make sense of that universe? Well, it's hard when you're in it. And so that's where a neutral can come and walk alongside and help you see things objectively.

00;27;37;23 - 00;27;59;06
Ahlishia Shipley
Thank you for sharing that global story that you see when working with families, particularly on the issue succession planning. I think stories like this and you sharing the actual impact that a conversation with a neutral party can have is really, really important. And I love when this happens, when one message in one episode is reinforced in the next episode.

00;27;59;06 - 00;28;24;24
Ahlishia Shipley
So we just had, in our last episode, talking about the importance of succession planning and wills in states. And, you know, just a statistic that we share, 45% of Americans aged 55 and over do not have a estate plan. And so that is important. But that was the message also that people don't want to have the conversation because of the reluctance to communicate with their family members.

00;28;24;24 - 00;28;51;09
Ahlishia Shipley
And having someone who can facilitate that discussion is a way to get it going and actually engage in that, in that process. For listeners who are listening to our conversation and thinking, you know, we've been dealing with this tension in my family or on the farm, we've had this disagreement or this difficult conversation, but just really not sure even where to start to get it resolved or managed as USA.

00;28;51;10 - 00;29;12;08
Ahlishia Shipley
And so I love for you to offer them something practical and encouraging. So what are 1 or 2 practical communication or conflict management strategies that a farm family, ranch or agricultural professional can begin using right now to strengthen their relationships and navigate a difficult conversation or dispute?

00;29;12;09 - 00;29;37;27
Kiley Fleming
One of my favorite, favorite questions. And so I say that a good facilitator or mediator is a hope broker and a bridge maker. And so if you are a bridge maker, you're simply looking at a gap and you're finding a way to fill the space between, well, if you're listening to this, you have that same gift within yourself, and it can start with just little parts of your language instead of using the word.

00;29;37;28 - 00;29;57;24
Kiley Fleming
But use the word and because and conjoined people together. So if you have a message that you need to tell your farm operation, one example would be to say, I want this farm to be viable, but we are in debt. Our brain is going to hang on to that second piece, which isn't the positive piece it's going to hang on to we're in debt.

00;29;57;25 - 00;30;20;24
Kiley Fleming
You can say the same thing and say, I want this farm operation to move forward, and I want to figure out ways to reduce our debt. Same message the and conjoin and allows there to be oxygen and hope breathe into that conversation. So that would be the first thing that I would say. And then I have a couple of lines that I tell people pause with purpose.

00;30;20;25 - 00;30;43;02
Kiley Fleming
Pause with purpose. So before you make a decision, say, have I really weighed this out? And how you will know you're doing it is if you can have a perspective of the other person, how might somebody else look at this? Just doing those very small incremental changes will make a world of difference, because people will start responding to you in kindness.

00;30;43;07 - 00;31;07;14
Ahlishia Shipley
Excellent. I love that, so that we can all be even us who maybe in the middle of something we can be a hope broker in a bridge builder. I really, really loved it and I'm glad that you brought up the importance of perspective taking. I think it is just so important in every aspect of our of our lives in terms of, you know, just engaging with the people in our lives.

00;31;07;15 - 00;31;31;00
Ahlishia Shipley
Before we wrap up today's conversation, we always close the show with what we call a resilience reflection. And so, Kylie, your work centers around helping people navigate difficult conversations, uncertainty and conflict, often during very stressful moments in their lives or businesses. So what keeps you committed to this work and what gives you hope when working with agricultural communities?

00;31;31;02 - 00;31;57;26
Kiley Fleming
To me, it is a gift to work with the agricultural community because you talk about resilient people, people who can see the problem solving nature, the transformative nature that that you see in ranching and farming. I consider it a privilege to walk alongside people. And what I tell myself that if somebody seems really energized or, you know, angry or upset or I say, you know what passion means, that person still has purpose.

00;31;57;26 - 00;32;17;29
Kiley Fleming
I'll take wherever somebody gives me. If they're apathetic and they don't care, I'm more worried about that. So if somebody is in a hard conflict, you know what it tells me? These people still care. So even if you're sitting with your family or your banker or whomever and it feels tense, remind yourself that an arrow only takes flight from the tension of the bow.

00;32;18;01 - 00;32;35;22
Kiley Fleming
Tension is it that tension is what moves us forward. And so if somebody is giving you a personality or an attitude or something, say, you know what? At least they're showing me they still care. So for me, every day that I get the opportunity to have people show me they care, it's a day that we get to see opportunities.

00;32;35;22 - 00;32;39;01
Kiley Fleming
And so it's not hard to be a hope broker when, you know, hope can be found.

00;32;39;04 - 00;33;10;14
Ahlishia Shipley
And I really like that perspective that someone showing passion means that they're still purpose so that we can we can work with that. You can work with that in a process like this. Well, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your expertise and insights on agriculture, mediation and conflict management, and also for the important work you do helping individuals and organizations and ad communities navigate difficult decisions and issues and build strong path forward.

00;33;10;15 - 00;33;33;22
Ahlishia Shipley
And so, for our listeners, if you'd like to learn more about agricultural mediation services or connect with resources in your area, you can visit the Coalition of Agricultural Mediation Programs website as well as your local USDA Farm Service Agency office. As we've heard today, agricultural mediation programs help producers work through disputes in a confidential, respectful, and solution-oriented way.

00;33;33;26 - 00;33;56;19
Ahlishia Shipley
Additionally, to explore tools and resources that support farm business success, please visit agftap.org and learn how to connect with a FARM Champion in your state. And don't forget to follow and subscribe to the FARM Champion Podcast wherever you get your podcast. And remember from today that you can go out and be a hope broker and a bridge builder. See you next time!